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[Replicant]

What?

Shota = Young boys.

You are full of crap. There is no oyher explanation.

It's just my 2 cents. Why are you angry? LOL

 

[Dead Man]

I agree with that.
For real equity, they should put some kind of young shirtless guy with a bubble butt, jock strap and giant crotch. Not that equity is an absolute necessity anyway^^

Not necessary, no but I like where your idea is going

 

[Shinta]

No, it is a broad criticism of people who like this art style and character design. That is all it is. And you are criticising me for keeping my initial position now? Gold. I am convinced he is saying that, because it is what he said.

No, I was pretty clearly criticizing you for doing nothing to justify it.

If I call you juvenile for liking the art style, have I called all heterosexuals juvenile?

I don't know what trap you think you're setting, but it's getting tired. Just say what your point is. Ask yourself hypothetical questions all day, then answer them. If you want to directly quote something I've said and then make an actual point with some rationale or justification behind it, then go for it.

No. It means I think you are wrong, and you think I am wrong, and we will not agree so there is no point arguing about it. It was an attempt to sidestep a matter that is only peripherally related to the initial claim you made which is the one I am taking issue with.

Sounds like a cop out to me. I guess "sidestep" sounds more ... artful.

 

[dude]

Oh you don't like sexualized women? Are you not a guy? Oh, you're probably gay, because only gay people won't like these designs, here are some comically large guys!

There is a huge difference between the "sexualization" of the guys in games. Take that huge Arnold look-alike that people post in this thread, that's hardly sexualized, he's comically large an doesn't fit anyone's bill for an attractive man. He's just an exaggerated large men's man (which implies power and sexual prowess but without actually being sexualized.) Contrast that to the tiny huge-breasted wizard with a split skirt that won't hide anything.

Kotaku is right here and the designer came across as both misogynistic and homophobic.

Wait until the Feminists get in here.

You're in luck, here we are!

 

[Hours Left]

Isn't there a neogaf thread about some anthromorphic gay dating sim that was floating around like last week? I learned from that thread that Bara is for gay guys who like muscular dudes and that's why a lot of those characters were pretty buff. I also tangentially learned that Chris Redfield has been subject to the bara fandom.

Link?

Yup. Bara, as opposed to yaoi (which is generally for women) is for gay men by gay men and often features more muscular men. It's vaguely possible that Vanillaware was going for that, but knowing they're track record, I'd say it's more an overly stylized muscle guy to make male players feel cool, just like the sorceress is an overly stylized boob vessel to look sexy. I don't fault the devs, they know their demographic, and I'll probably play this game anyway should it be localized.

I highly doubt that Vanillaware was taking gay men into account with any of there designs unfortunately. And really all it would take is some slight alterations to the characters that would please gay men, but still keep the super tough macho fantasy they are going for. (Despite some claims in this topic, the Dwarf is not designed to be sexually attractive, despite his skimpy attire. While some might still find him appealing, I'm pretty confident that it was not the intent of his design to be appealing to straight women and gay men, but rather to appeal to a power fantasy.)

Remove the Knight's breatplate, make the Wizard not boring, let us use the barbarian guy, etc. If they want this to be an absurdest fantasy, awesome, go for it, but they could try a bit harder to make it more balanced in the fan service aspects.

But when most companies can get by with games that are only made with straight guys in mind, this doesn't happen very often, and if it does, it's almost always incidental.

 

[Ponn]

They were both wrong with resorting to insults and unprofessional.

 

[Eusis]

It doesn't look that different from what Kamitani does. On both cases, those hips will break supporting the massive chest of the characters.

That's not the real problem though, the problem is he makes multiple art mistakes that are just that, mistakes, not part of an intentional aesthetic. I can probably dig up better articles (though that one DOES highlight a tail just growing out of a butt cheek), I read something once highlighting his style's kind of the product of incestous comic art, learning to draw form other comics rather than being trained traditionally.

 

[QisTopTier]

Shota = Young boys.

Thats not a shota

 

[L00P]

Schreier is basically like a pot calling a kettle black, except that isn't a kettle, and the pot is just being a dumbass

And Kamitani is really good at what he does. Love his art. I can see how people get offended by his work, though. Those people usually just can't handle the sexiness, is all

 

[michaelius]

Kotaku is absolutely right. The character's design is ridiculous, insulting to both men and women gamers, and it reinforces the negative gamer stereotype of basement-dwelling losers.

I found amazing solution to your problem:

don't buy it.

 

[Replicant]

Thats not a shota

Fine. Shounen is. But shota is normally used for shotacon, which is obsession for young boys, which Kamitani seems to display at times.

 

[Jac_Solar]

Regardless of the response (Seems to me that he's merely implying that J.Schreier wants exaggerated men in his games, or doesn't mind exaggerated men in games -- not that he's gay, or whatever.), I thought J. Schreier was much more level headed than this.

 

[Taiser]

So boobs mean 14 year olds made it?.

God = confirmed 14 year old.

 

[Rickenslacker]

I wonder how much attention the art of Dragon's Crown would get if Sorceress was solely excluded. Seems the one hyper breasted character is enough to get people riled.

 

[Calcaneus]

Is it less offensive to mock anyone who finds breasts attractive? It's "juvenile" if you like any erotic art now. Somehow it's become perfectly fine to mock people's sexuality and sexual expression if they're straight males. It's actually considered progressive.

Not every heterosexual male finds huge cartoon boobs attractive. I don't think this article is an attack on straight males at all.

 

[Shinta]

Kotaku is right here and the designer came across as both misogynistic and homophobic.

We've finally brought the subtext out into the open for an honest debate. The hidden (not very well) premise behind his entire article.

Dragon's Crown is an assault on women.

Not every heterosexual male finds huge cartoon boobs attractive. I don't think this article is an attack on straight males at all.

Just all teenagers apparently (straight males).

 

[Persona86]

Thats not a shota

Isn't shota a girl with a penis?

 

[Ratrat]

Isn't shota a girl with a penis?

It's the boy version of a loli.

 

[QisTopTier]

Fine. Shounen is. But shouta is normally used for shoutacon, which is obsession for young boys, which Kamitani seems to display at times.

I was referring to oswald.

 

[Replicant]

Isn't shota a girl with a penis?

Nooooo. That's futanari. Google it.

I was referring to oswald.

*shrug* He looks like a shota to me. Way too young to be wearing such armor.

 

[QaaQer]

Your wrong, those are some pretty mature breasts there.

They look more like freakish tumors. It is relaxing watching the jiggle physics tho.

 

[toastyToast]

God = confirmed 14 year old.

I think the watermark has actual tits in it dude

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Thats not a shota

People just like to used terms for anything even if it wrong .

 

[Acrylic7]

If she could realistically stand up with those proportions, I imagine that animation would be pretty realistic considering the size of the breasts and lack of bra.

pretty much.

I have been blessed to see something this spectacular in real life. In Walmart no less. What an experience.

also this guy is a idiot. Its just an art style and its supposed to be like that.

 

[Eusis]

which is obsession for young boys, which Kamitani seems to display at times.

Ok, now I'm really starting to question if you know what you're talking about at all. I can't even think of any examples of this.

 

[Dead Man]

No, I was pretty clearly criticizing you for doing nothing to justify it.



I don't know what trap you think you're setting, but it's getting tired. Just say what your point is. Ask yourself hypothetical questions all day, then answer them. If you want to directly quote something I've said and then make an actual point with some rationale or justification behind it, then go for it.



Sounds like a cop out to me. I guess "sidestep" sounds more ... artful.

It is not a trap, it is a simple question with an equivalent situation to try and demonstrate why JS has not attacked all heterosexuals. It is a rhetorical device that has been used for millennia. Again, it's not complicated. I already said if something was not clear, ask me.

This post of yours is a prime example of how your are approaching this. There is zero discussion of the actual topic, you are just talking about my posts, and badly at that.

If you don't want to actually discuss the post you made, that is fine, but stop attacking me for simply asking a few questions.

 

[Persona86]

I wonder how much attention the art of Dragon's Crown would get if Sorceress was solely excluded. Seems the one hyper breasted character is enough to get people riled.

Every time the haters or feminists get riled up, they are only increasing the sales of the game, so ironic really.

 

[InfiniteNine]

Ok, now I'm really starting to question if you know what you're talking about at all. I can't even think of any examples of this.

Considering his inability to see the skill gap in Kamitani and Leifield I think that says enough.

 

[-PXG-]

Isn't shota a girl with a penis?

That's futanari

I need to get something to drink. This thread is starting to go places.

 

[Marmaladefire]

Isn't shota a girl with a penis?

That's a futanari..
Shotacon=reverse lolicon
Kamitani doesn't do that kind of thing. It's more like uh..Bishounen Jump.

Edit: Haven't you ever seen final fantasy characters, Replicant? It's like that only in 2D

 

[Parakeetman]

What Id like to know is why is it the same guy stirring up shit all the time whenever it comes to Kotaku articles linked here at GAF?

 

[InfiniteNine]

What Id like to know is why is it the same guy stirring up shit all the time whenever it comes to Kotaku articles linked here at GAF?

I thought I was the only one noticing this but with different things.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

What Id like to know is why is it the same guy stirring up shit all the time whenever it comes to Kotaku articles linked here at GAF?

If Kotaku pays per view, I'll bet he's quite happy regardless of what is being said.

 

[M°°nblade]

Jezus christ, what is this? The maturity police?

You don't have to take everything so damn seriously as if every game is supposed to uphold your image of maturity of the entire gamesindustry.

Games are for fun.
Art can as well be for fun.

Kamitani can draw whatever he likes. Allowing artistical freedom is a form of maturity as well. One that is much, much more important than people being offended by exaggerated proportions.

 

[Replicant]

Ok, now I'm really starting to question if you know what you're talking about at all. I can't even think of any examples of this.

Those feminine men in big armor, those young boys he depicted. To be fair though, that's kind of Japan's specialty (see: Vaan). Luckily half of the time they are depicted old enough, which is more than what I can say for the girl counterpart.

Considering his inability to see the skill gap in Kamitani and Leifield I think that says enough.

Well, they're equally tacky in their design. Why can't I compare? Mind you, I do enjoy Kamitani's tackiness a bit more.

 

[dude]

I found amazing solution to your problem:

don't buy it.

RPS mentioned in a recent post a very nice metaphot by Anita Sarkeesian: Sexism in gaming is like a moving walkway, it's not enough to just stand in place, you must actively try and walk against it. Just not buying it is a passive moving with the walkway strategy, gamers should let developers know they won't accept sexism.

Jezus christ, what is this? The maturity police?

You don't have to take everything so damn seriously as if every game is supposed to uphold your image of maturity of the entire gamesindustry.

Games are for fun.
Art can as well be for fun.

Kamitani can draw whatever he likes. Allowing artistical freedom is a form of maturity as well. One that is much, much more important than people being offended by exaggerated proportions.

You guys should stop with the artistic freedom crap - No one is saying he shouldn't be allowed by law to draw what he wants.

 

[reptilescorpio]

It would be quite a leap to find Dragon's Crown sexist. Unless the character is terrible compared to the males ones.

What Id like to know is why is it the same guy stirring up shit all the time whenever it comes to Kotaku articles linked here at GAF?

It's a blog, some stuff is terrible, some stuff is good and some stuff is great.

Treat Kotaku as a stream of consciousness and it becomes easier to digest.

 

[sonicmj1]

Dragon's Crown doesn't deserve the sorts of criticism that people like Jason Schreier are giving it, and I'm glad Kamitani is being a good sport about it, pointing out that those female designs are part of a larger aesthetic that applies to everyone in the game. I don't know how people saw his tweet as some sort of homophobic insinuation.

I don't know why you don't see that mocking what people find sexually attractive is mocking sexuality. It goes for men or women, gay or straight.

If you want to find things women find attractive and start calling them cheap and juvenile for liking it, I would find it equally offensive. I hope that answers your question.

When you say "people" here, who are you referring to?

Putting questions of appropriateness aside, there are tons of things that some groups of people find sexually attractive that can be mocked without mocking sexuality as a whole. There are tons of ways to appreciate the female form without having to subscribe to Dragon's Crown's brand of over-the-top erotic fantasy.

 

[tafer]

Every time the haters or feminists get riled up, they are only increasing the sales of the game, so ironic really.

Brilliant viral strategy.

And looks like the name calling started... boy this is so predictable.

 

[Riposte]

RPS mentioned in a recent post a very nice metaphot by Anita Sarkeesian: Sexism in gaming is like a moving walkway, it's not enough to just stand in place, you must actively try and walk against it. Just not buying it is a passive moving with the walkway strategy, gamers should let developers know they won't accept sexism.

So its become a game of "Stop liking what I don't like", eh?

 

[Shinta]

It is not a trap, it is a simple question with an equivalent situation to try and demonstrate why JS has not attacked all heterosexuals.

Demonstrate away. Please, by all means. Just say it already. The situation demonstrates what?

This post of yours is a prime example of how your are approaching this. There is zero discussion of the actual topic, you are just talking about my posts, and badly at that.

This is just painfully ironic at this point.

If you don't want to actually discuss the post you made, that is fine, but stop attacking me for simply asking a few questions.

You are the one attacking me lol. This is surreal.

Again, just state your justification or reasoning, if you even have any. I literally dare you. I think I've made 5 posts now trying to get any kind of rationale or justification for your positions out of you and you simply refuse. Instead I get an explanation of rhetorical devices.

 

[QaaQer]

Jezus christ, what is this? The maturity police?

You don't have to take everything so damn seriously as if every game is supposed to uphold your image of maturity of the entire gamesindustry.

Games are for fun.
Art can as well be for fun.

Kamitani can draw whatever he likes. Allowing artistical freedom is a form of maturity as well. One that is much, much more important than people being offended by exaggerated proportions.

& JS can write whatever he wants, that ok?

 

[Eusis]

Those feminine men in big armor, those young boys he depicted. To be fair though, that's kind of Japan's specialty (see: Vaan). Luckily half of the time they are depicted old enough, which is more than what I can say for the girl counterpart.

Except far as I recall shotacon's about little boys, not teenagers or young twenties.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm a feminist and I take no issue with the character design of the sorceress (in fact, I fucking love it).

RPS mentioned in a recent post a very nice metaphot by Anita Sarkeesian: Sexism in gaming is like a moving walkway, it's not enough to just stand in place, you must actively try and walk against it. Just not buying it is a passive moving with the walkway strategy, gamers should let developers know they won't accept sexism.

But this isn't sexism.

 

[Dead Man]

It doesn't look that different from what Kamitani does. On both cases, those hips will break supporting the massive chest of the characters.

Basically it comes down to this stuff being consistent in it's exaggeration, while Liefield is just sort of a random accumulation of errors.

 

[Shinta]

When you say "people" here, who are you referring to?

Putting questions of appropriateness aside, there are tons of things that some groups of people find sexually attractive that can be mocked without mocking sexuality as a whole. There are tons of ways to appreciate the female form without having to subscribe to Dragon's Crown's brand of over-the-top erotic fantasy.

I don't know why anyone is latching on to this idea that if 100% of an entire sexual orientation aren't in 100% uniform agreement about everything, then it has zero relevance. It's a really odd way to try and discredit the fact that this is blatantly mocking hetereosexual erotic art, the artist, and those who like the artwork.

It's like someone trying to mock gay marriage, and defenders saying, "well not all gay people want to be married. This isn't an attack on homosexuality." It's absurd.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Kotaku is right here and the designer came across as both misogynistic and homophobic.

Definition of MISOGYNY

: a hatred of women

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny

So care to explain how Kamitani's female designs fit into that definition?

 

[Replicant]

Except far as I recall shotacon's about little boys, not teenagers or young twenties.

Is this like one of those "I may look like a 10 year old boy but I'm actually 1000 year old demon" excuse? New Zealand is watching this thread with interest now.

And seriously though, no one in their twenties look that young.

 

[dude]

So its become a game of "Stop liking what I don't like", eh?

No, it's about showing that these designs, especially in the context of the gaming industry, are problematic and help demean and objectify women. And hopefully, once more people realize that, they also won't be as accepting to it and the gaming industry might slowly turn less sexist.

 

[Eusis]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny

So care to explain how Kamitani's female designs fit into that definition?

You'd probably make a better misogyny argument if there were no women there and he said they had no place in a fantasy game, rather than including not only female characters but one absurdly buffed up, something you would typically not do for a typical fanservice design.