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G. Kamitani replies to J. Schreier's Kotaku article on Dragon's Crown (slightly NSFW)
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alexandros
Banned
I won't, but the mainstream assosiation of the term "gamer" with things like this will continue to haunt me.
Yes, I do. Absolutely.
Why else would people find the sorceress attractive if not for their innate sexual orientation? That's certainly part of it.
I think it's applying a strict standard that no comment can ever live up to. If 100% of all heterosexuals do not find this game erotically appealing, then it doesn't count? No one ever applies this standard to anything, ever.
Okay, thanks for saying it. But yeah, I totally disagree. Apply the same logical premise to other things, and you can see that the logic does not hold up here as a good justification at all. I'll give one example from an earlier post.
It's like someone trying to mock gay marriage, and defenders saying, "well not all gay people want to be married. This isn't an attack on homosexuality."
As you can see, people opposed to gay marriage could be categorized as just opponents o gay marriage, but not in any way homophobic, because not every gay person wants to get married. The logic does not work, for any premise. Think of all the things people call offensive to women, but some women don't find it offensive. Your rationale could almost disqualify all sexism on the grounds that not 100% of women feel that way.
Every sexual orientation is diverse, and every person is diverse. It really doesn't change the fact at all that his article was attacking people for liking something related to their sexual orientation. Thanks for stating your justification. But I remain unconvinced.
Except it's not true at all.
Probably the closest thing to recourse is to make designs that fit for the kind of game you're trying to create. Which returns this to being more or less a non-issue, it's an argument I'd save for a game that's trying for a more serious/realistic/whatever style yet just throws in a female character whose dressed ridiculously in anyway. So possibly something like 999 or VLR instead, despite the irony a woman is the character designer there. Though at least justifications were remembered there, even if they're kind of stretching it.
So if you don't want the content modified or censored in any way, what do you want?
There are plenty of people that don't want to get married, gay and straight.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Most of the characters seem like extreme renditions of how they're normally depicted in games and other fantasy. A sexy sorceress, not exactly a crazy concept. Ironically to fit with that the wizard would've had to be a withered old man, which they've instead opted for a younger more attractive appearance.
How did the debate migrated to young boys lol ?
I'm lost.
But the girl/gay oriented equivalent of the chicks in the game would be something like Channing Tatum in a stripper outfit i guess.
The real debate here is.. Does that machistic and pretty vulgar representation of a girl is targeted toward a certain audience (making it, indeed, bad taste at least), or is it a pop culture aesthetic, like you would find in Tarantino movies. I think it's the latter myself, so the Kotaku article is just a little OT.
And i would add that to Persona86 post :
I'm lost.
But the girl/gay oriented equivalent of the chicks in the game would be something like Channing Tatum in a stripper outfit i guess.
The real debate here is.. Does that machistic and pretty vulgar representation of a girl is targeted toward a certain audience (making it, indeed, bad taste at least), or is it a pop culture aesthetic, like you would find in Tarantino movies. I think it's the latter myself, so the Kotaku article is just a little OT.
And i would add that to Persona86 post :
gundamkyoukai
Member
Some guys look very young even in high school when i was 21 people still thought i was 15 .
Also Japan does not draw everything young since i find load of series where characters look there ages .
There are artist that work for certain market just like everything else .
But it is embarrassing. Well, at least to me. I guess I just prefer playing games/watching anime where the characters are at least of legal age in both age and appearance. And sooner or later other government will catch up to both AUS and NZ. It is a problem that Japan needs to address soon.
That's where the problem lies, isn't it? Your perception may not match what the law perceives and before you know it you'll be in trouble.
When was the last time you see anime with mature adults and how many are there in comparison to the ones starring younger characters? Granted, it may have something to do with the target audience but sometimes they do things like teacher who looks like a kid (Azumanga).
Yeah, but those people usually are not opposed to people who want to get married.
This sounds to me like nothing is acceptable until the developers do what you want. Guess I got the wrong idea? Sorry if that's the case.
dude said:
You have selectively replied again. Your argument involving gay marriage has already been correctly dismissed by other posters as not correct. You have still not actually shown how attacking a subset of a group is attacking the whole group.
I'll try to get an answer one last time.
If you attack a subset of a group, you are attacking the group as a whole. Yes or no?
SolidSnakex
Member
Both the wizard and the elf look pretty normal. The elf is almost completely covered (and she doesn't have a big ass or breasts) while the wizard isn't a walking pile of muscles like the knight and dwarf.
it made me laugh, so there is that.
Unless Jason Schreier is advocating laws that would legally bar Kamitani from making art, your analogy makes no sense.
If you're not willing to admit the difference between an aesthetic judgment and the withholding of legal rights, it'll be difficult to continue this conversation.
A better parallel, if you want to bring homosexuality into the equation, would be those who take issue with "gay culture" and its associated flamboyant attire and behaviors. It's possible to look down on that without it being an attack on homosexuality as a whole.
DFC ftw.
This entire thing just reeks of Kotaku. Why do people even read their website anymore? They have no idea what they're talking about most of the time.
The answer is ofcourse no.
If I say I don't like eating bananas, it doesn't mean I dislike eating fruits in general.
Oh, I can't really deny the bolded, but it's not really binary either as for some it's really just staring young characters, think Ghibli for instance. And I'm not really that convinced other governments are necessarily going to double down there, there was one incident in the USA but that was local, and I think something about just drawings was shot down by the SCOTUS itself.
If the law starts going after people just because of JRPG leads in games like Odin Sphere, Tales, Persona, whatever we've got far bigger problems when it comes to the government in general, because that's horrifically draconian. I honestly am starting to think many of us are just becoming very self concious about this stuff when in practice no one that has enough power actually gives enough of a damn except in small, isolated cases. Or at least not within the limits of what's really being discussed in here as we're not talking porn here or anything, or so was my impression.
That was my reading of it as well
In terms of sexual characteristics and how they are viewed the penis is not equivalent to breasts
That's not even the point of the analogy. I give up trying to explain it.
That's why i was saying crotch or big butt would be the equivalent.
Schreier is not giving an aesthetic judgement, he's judging the artist's maturity based on his art design.
He's accusing an adult person to have the maturity of a 14 year old. That's something I call an insult.
I don't think you can say that the Sorceress/Barbarians are not actually characters without having played Dragon's Crown.
Sorceress/Barbarian are just two of the characters you can choose in Dragon's Crown, the others are the Dwarf, Elf, and Knight.
Without having played it we don't know if the Sorc/Barb have any less character development than the Knight or the Dwarf.
In previous Vanillaware games I think all the playable characters had equal amounts of development.
Father_Brain
Banned
Yeah, I'm trying and failing to think of an interpretation in which this isn't homophobic.
Definitely never buying a Vanillaware game.
I understand that the whole "rights" issue wasn't the point of the analogy, but it's a rather important element of the whole gay marriage debate, so it's pretty impossible to overlook.
That's why I proposed a different analogy.
Is this analogy a viable basis for conversation?
#1reasonswhy Kotaku needs to shut the hell up.
Edit: And then you wonder why they are shocked when devs respond to their gawker journalism.
Edit: And then you wonder why they are shocked when devs respond to their gawker journalism.
Theres been several non-homophobic interpretations offered already in the thread
Knux-Future
Banned
It's really a shame that every thread about this game falls into the same "this is sexist" arguments.
whatever..
Think what you wanna think, just don't insult others and let people enjoy what they enjoy.
The only thing that pisses me off it the dudes screaming that games like this should fail so their beliefs can be confirmed. If this game bombs, sexism in games isn't gonna stop and that honestly isn't fair to those that enjoy this artstyle...that is selfish and honestly more childish than any big tits drawing.
It almost (key word guys) equivilant to me wanting all FPS to fail because I don't like them.
Let people like what they like....don't insult them because you don't or have some bullshit holier than thou mentality. You are not superior to anyone. You are just a judgemental prick at that point.
As for this...good jab back. Basically saying that he's an equal opprotunity pervert lol.
You guys take everything so damn serious...remember when games were all about having fun and shit? Good times...good times. Now it's all about sales and taking a stand against something.
whatever..
Think what you wanna think, just don't insult others and let people enjoy what they enjoy.
The only thing that pisses me off it the dudes screaming that games like this should fail so their beliefs can be confirmed. If this game bombs, sexism in games isn't gonna stop and that honestly isn't fair to those that enjoy this artstyle...that is selfish and honestly more childish than any big tits drawing.
It almost (key word guys) equivilant to me wanting all FPS to fail because I don't like them.
Let people like what they like....don't insult them because you don't or have some bullshit holier than thou mentality. You are not superior to anyone. You are just a judgemental prick at that point.
As for this...good jab back. Basically saying that he's an equal opprotunity pervert lol.
You guys take everything so damn serious...remember when games were all about having fun and shit? Good times...good times. Now it's all about sales and taking a stand against something.
The premise is true though. None of the secondary traits for males have to be covered.
And given how it seems Japanese games are giving the video game industry a bad name, the easiest, quickest way to fix it would be following Activision/Josh Sawyer's model. Kamitani doesn't care, but Square should cancel Lightning Returns and shelve Tomb Raider and stick to nothing but 30ish white males.
My gut says this is correct but my brain is asking for a source on this one.
Here's another thought: these designs don't cause any change in human behavior at all and are thus not problematic at all. Gamers argue all the time that violent games don't make them more violent, but what studies have shown is that violent people will turn to violent games more often. Might it be possible that the result (people who "demean and objectify women") already exists and will always exist and people just turn to specific media in the same way as violent people exists who turn to violent media?
Of course context is important but to me Ghibli seems to be the only company that actually does not explain the young nature of the character and pretend that they are sexually attractive adult who just happen to look young. Ghibli's characters always act like their age and in most cases are very sexually understated (see Arriety). I can't say the same for other companies though.
We are aware. But how about Japan and their target market? This is all what it essentially boils down to, isn't it? How it all started. I don't think there's anything wrong with making them aware that some of the things they produce is...well, kind of awkward for the rest of us to consume/purchase.
What if they reply in the typical "Well, it's not for you anyway!" Is it really that productive to respond in that manner considering how the market is slowly but surely turning international?
On that note, I also wonder if we, as game/anime fans, are less critical of Japanese game developers than we are of western developers. I see things that Japanese developers do/say that are downright cringe-worthy but are defended by some of us while if this had been a western developer, they'd probably be skewered.
There's also a difference between homophobia and just being insensitive.
Though given that it sounds like some gay men are into this stuff I'm not really sure this artwork provided is actually offensive to them on a whole anyway.
michaelius
Banned
Father_Brain
Banned
It's not the art itself that I find at all offensive; it's the seeming insinuation of homosexuality as what's intended to be an insulting comeback, which is completely unacceptable in 2013
moozoom
Member
Isn't the dwarf already overly sexualized? That's the problem I have with the article, complains about boobs but not about this:
They're not exactly playing double standards here, it's just the games art style.
I love that the Dwarf is drawn like that...and also the cuddling naked bearded drawing he made as a reply. So I don't mind the boobs, each to his own.
I'm actually pretty sure this image will be posted many times on gay image board across the globe, and elicit many fanarts and doujinshis. It's been already re-blogged many times on facebook and tumblr by my gay (bear) friends.
Most of the time, my gripe with oversexualization is that men are too much clothed compared to their female companions. (DOA ?) But I'm not a prude, and I'm quite cool with all of this : I don't find sexuality to be "icky", and it takes a lot to shock me. (And there's always pixiv to see naked videogame hunks)
Besides, they're not really that attractive, are they ? All the characters are so stylized that they're more freaks of nature that human beings. That poor witch must have huge back problems, and difficulty sleeping. Like Bayonetta, they're are exagerated cartoony representations of idealized tropes.
The game character design is a bit like a Tongue'in cheek comment about heroic fantasy in general.
I loved Ronal the Barbarian exactly for the same reasons. It's funny to play with the stereotypes.
My only gripe is Kamitani's answer could be perceived as slightly homophobic (I think it's only badly worded but still... )
Fixed so hard
spandexmonkey
Banned
I think if someone is going to complain about sexualization in a game, attacking the people who enjoy it as immature is just going to start a fight you won't win. People just won't suddenly stop being attracted to half naked women and will continue to want to see them in their entertainment. It would be wrong in my opinion to remove them.
Instead, if you have a game with a woman wearing barely a thing, the first question should be, what is the guy wearing? If they're both dressed equivalently then there should be no issue, other than personal taste:
This may not be to your liking, but it's not sexist, just sexy. That guy has a body I'll never achieve, but I'm not offended if my wife thinks he looks hot. I like my fantasy wild and half naked, it's escapism.
Western fantasy armor design (generally) has been the polar opposite by comparison:
Instead, if you have a game with a woman wearing barely a thing, the first question should be, what is the guy wearing? If they're both dressed equivalently then there should be no issue, other than personal taste:
This may not be to your liking, but it's not sexist, just sexy. That guy has a body I'll never achieve, but I'm not offended if my wife thinks he looks hot. I like my fantasy wild and half naked, it's escapism.
Western fantasy armor design (generally) has been the polar opposite by comparison:
It's definitely not to my liking, but it's what some people enjoy, thats cool.
This is how the male character is drawn in the game. The picture was intended as: why do you cirtisize my exagerated females but the males?
You should read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1118397657/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Basically it says human species female boobs (in contrast to other primates) are so big because the transition from crawling to walking gave males extra sexual signals from the front side as well as the rear
That makes boobs fake butt.
It's more the homoerotic depiction in particular rather than the design that has people questioning the intent.
Moral Panic
Member
And their own text:
"It seems that Mr. JASON SCHREIER of kotaku is pleased also with neither sorceress nor amazon.
The art of the direction which he likes was prepared."
They are clearly calling him gay.
The thing is that it seems you're drawing the line WAY off from where most people would, at least in the case of Oswald. In the artwork shown for him most often he doesn't actually look out of line relative to many other teenage protagonists, whereas the problem I'm assuming you have is more with stuff like Disgaea or Neptunia. Plus the "it's not binary" goes here too, there's definitely works that make me go "uhhh, what?" or designs that come off as way too young and not handled in a way that's really innocuous, but Oswald's really, really damn far from those, and if he isn't then practically every anime or game with an anime visual style ends up straddling the line by default anyway.
Point. I think this thread's just kind of tiring at this point really.
I didn't see the depiction as homoerotic but fair enough.
to me, it seems people are way too sensitive to chests, male and female.
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