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Gabe Newell doing AMA on reddit about the mod paying thing right now

This isn't even the first time Bethesda has paid people who made mods. They hired a dude who made an Oblivion arrow mod to work on the Skyrim arrow system.

Nobody has issue with mod makers being paid. There are just better ways to do it than uncurated, not QA'd, outsourced DLC, which this system is basically.

I also think they shouldn't have started off with a game that already has a well-established modding community where everyone has already contributed so much for free for several years - for some it may feel like a betrayal and a reversal on their expectations from when they started. "I poured in hours of my time helping build these mods for free because I knew everyone else was doing it for free as well; the reason the game is still so popular and there are so many mods in the first place is due in large part to this understanding - and now a select few are going to make a quick cash-grab and profit off the goodwill I helped create, many using the techniques and tools I helped to develop."

If Valve had made this announcement for an upcoming game, people could have said, "That's not my thing; I'm not interested in contributing", and they wouldn't have felt like the bargain got switched on them after the fact. Honestly, I don't know what Valve was thinking except that Skyrim would be a good "test", but obviously they've found out the bigger the existing modding community the bigger the backlash.
 
This isn't even the first time Bethesda has paid people who made mods. They hired a dude who made an Oblivion arrow mod to work on the Skyrim arrow system.

Nobody has issue with mod makers being paid. There are just better ways to do it than uncurated, not QA'd, outsourced DLC, which this system is basically.

I think being hired is cool, but they realistically can't hire every modder, even those with talent deserving compensation. This can help those guys. I agree this needs stiff curating. Ideally every mod would be required to work with the most recent update or would be pulled, and need to work with any other mod that didn't have the same function as it. If properly curated this would be an advantage over the current system. And if valve/Bethesda do the curating they can say the mod money goes to that.
 
-Trading Cards
-Hats
-CS GO weapons
-Greenlight
-Early Access
-Auto-Updating Patches
-Endless "friend" requests
-Third Party DRM
-Steam Curators
-Free to Play
-Workshop (new!)

I've seriously reached a point where I ALMOST wish PC gaming was still buy a CD, drive home, install game. When did something fun get so complicated?
 
-Trading Cards
-Hats
-CS GO weapons
-Greenlight
-Early Access
-Auto-Updating Patches
-Endless "friend" requests
-Third Party DRM
-Steam Curators
-Free to Play
-Workshop (new!)

I've seriously reached a point where I ALMOST wish PC gaming was still buy a CD, drive home, install game. When did something fun get so complicated?

I'm a pretty heavy PC gamer and it's really not that hard to ignore everything on there. Except for third-party DRM.

Also auto-updating patches are a good thing. Rather that than hunting for patches like people used to do.
 
My .02 cents is that Valve loves to throw things out there and let the market dictate what happens. But I think they are clearly in the wrong here with this move.

I don't think anyone, in good conscience, can argue that rewarding modders for good work shouldn't be an option. And it can be. But not like this.

Bethesda has made money for years on the extended life modders have given their games. They had no issue trotting out mod support for the PC version of Skyrim because they know the value that brings. Now, Valve is enabling them to make a huge cut off what has been one of, if not the biggest parts of being a PC hobbyist. Apple, among the richest companies in the world does not even ask for a 75%/25% revenue split.

You can bet other companies are monitoring this and would eventually be all glad to enable mod support in there games, for a cut.

This really sickens me. It's the most I've ever been upset with Valve and I think I'm going to start shifting my business to GOG.com and other places.
 
Apple, among the richest companies in the world does not even ask for a 75%/25% revenue split.

Its not a 75/25 split. Valve is snagging 25percent, the rest is up to the publisher. You know... the entity that owns the property. If the split is 25/25/50 (with 50 going to Bethesda), and mod authors don't like it? Go mod for another game where the split is more 'fair'. If people would vote with their wallets and with what they choose to mod, prices will align to be much more balanced.
 
I find the lack of concern people have for what's undeniably happening to Skyrim's (indeed, TES and Bethesda's as a whole) established mod scene at this very moment disheartening. No matter how anyone tries to rationalize Valve's attempt at paid mods, this is ravaging Skyrim's modding community. The Elder Scrolls modding has been going on for 19 years counting the first notable attempts with Daggerfall, and for 13 years with official development kit tools since Morrowind. There are many, many thousands of mods for the series spanning all those years (many of which are nothing short of amazing) and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE WAS FOR MONEY.


Bethesda's games (especially on PC) are largely only popular because of that free mod scene, they've already benefited greatly from growing word of mouth, goodwill, and ultimately sales from all the community effort with the intention of improving or expanding upon the game for the sake of it or at best, indirect efforts to make a name for oneself. Similarly, Valve also benefit from those sales (Workshop's mere existence undoubtedly helps).


That both companies, especially Bethesda, have the gall to try and suck more from it is disgusting, imho. They're illustrating absolutely no respect for the modders or modding community who, if anything, they ought to be paying for cleaning up their garbage and polishing their reputation and games' worth immeasurably. Skyrim was a massive success and to this day remains at the top of Steam's charts because of this. People will bring up modders getting paid, but it's never been about that with TES modding and no one in the right mind would go into the hobby considering it. It never turned any monetary profits directly.


Instead of any such gratitude or contentment in allowing this to continue unfettered to their own benefit, the response from these companies is to monetize what became popular because it was free (facilitating easy use and disuse of a plethora of mods by pretty much every PC version owner, greatly contributing to the games' lasting and growing popularity) and then take inordinate cuts of it, seemingly forgetting the free part is what made it so enticing and positive to consumers, unrestrained (by legality conflicts) in terms of content creation, and productive in terms of modder collaboration. They did it with an existing and established game/community too, tearing it asunder in the most reckless manner possible with strife and opening up mods to a complicated mess of legal, ethical (mod theft and fear of such rightfully necessitating the removal of mods from Nexus by their creators), and retroactive (free mods become paid) issues.


Valve and Bethesda have lost all respect from this long-time Elder Scrolls fan and I've already committed myself to avoiding the former whenever I can (got TW3 from GOG instead) and as for the latter, I've already been growing discontent with their base games but at least they had such a proactive stance on mods which could fix a lot of their issues. But now they've placed themselves in a position where they would benefit from the mod revenue to have their UI and bugs fixed even? Unacceptable.


As for the premise of getting paid for making mods, ignoring the appalling cuts taken by the companies overseeing it, you were always doing things wrong if you went into TES modding for money as it's literally never been a factor in nearly two decades. It was never an incentive before and the community thrived for it (unified, too). It was a thing of beauty, but introducing money into any system always has ramifications and impact on motivation. It's basic human psychology. Some people will insist work demands payment, but it is a fact that TES modding has always been a hobbyist thing and it has thrived for it as have many modding communities.


Plenty of things individuals benefit from all day for free are made in such a way. Are we to pay to watch Youtube videos as well? What about viewing fan art? Reading fan fiction? Using all and any open source software? Reading a thought-out forum post? Do we apply this paid mod system retroactively to all games of the past as well? No, not all people will make mods for money, but it will always play a role in community division, motivational factors, cross-"licensing" of underlying mods, difficulty in quality regulation, IP-infringement, and disgusting behaviors such as ripping off other people's work and trying to sell it (that fear alone is negatively impacting Nexus as of now).


Paid mods simply cannot be properly and fully regulated, not while remaining community mods rather than outsourced DLC and they just drive a giant nail through the modding community as a whole.
 
Bethesda has made money for years on the extended life modders have given their games. They had no issue trotting out mod support for the PC version of Skyrim because they know the value that brings. Now, Valve is enabling them to make a huge cut off what has been one of, if not the biggest parts of being a PC hobbyist. Apple, among the richest companies in the world does not even ask for a 75%/25% revenue split.

That example is continually trotted out, but it is not relevant in this scenario. Much like Apple, Valve takes a 25% cut of sale to cover infrastructure, legal, and other associated distribution costs, but in this case there is also a intellectual property owner involved. Without Bethesda's consent, then this wouldn't get off the ground.
 
Valve's "25%" compensation for Dota 2/CSGO/TF2 made sense because 1) it's their own games and 2) the paid mods are integrated heavily into the games themselves and billed as basically "official" new content. Valve basically does a ton of legwork there to integrate the content into the game and heavily advertise it, so them taking a big cut made sense. Not to mention the fact it was heavily curated as "best of the best".

Completely different from throwing in a marketplace that they expect to curate itself.
 
I really don't understand the backlash. It's all hypotheticals and what ifs. free mods still exist

If we eventually get to the point where they don't it will have already been far too late to do anything about it.

Valve is trying to fix something that isn't broken.
 
If we eventually get to the point where they don't it will have already been far too late to do anything about it.

Valve is trying to fix something that isn't broken.

It's not even a "what if".

There's already people stealing mods from the Nexus, there's already "premium mods" using copyrighted music, and already mod authors being complete sleazebags about their paid versions (like the Midas Magic one).

In just a couple of days shit went haywire. I really don't get where people say the concerns are "what ifs". There's already problems NOW.
 
-

I've seriously reached a point where I ALMOST wish PC gaming was still buy a CD, drive home, install game. When did something fun get so complicated?

-Trading Cards (Benefits the service )
-Hats (game specific)
-CS GO weapons (game specific)
-Greenlight (needs an overhaul)
-Early Access (benefits the service)
-Auto-Updating Patches (like above)
-Endless "friend" requests (something has already been in place to solve this; limited account thing)
-Third Party DRM (agreed)
-Steam Curators (benefits the service )
-Free to Play (industry trend)
-Workshop (benefits the community excluding this paid mods thing)

A lot of what you listed only makes pc gaming more convenient for gamers. If I still had to manually update my games, I'd just play on consoles instead. I agree that some things like Greenlight and this current debacle needs a massive overhaul though.

And to be fair, you don't have to participate in majority of what you listed if you really didn't want to. You don't have to buy hats to craft trading cards, etc
 
That example is continually trotted out, but it is not relevant in this scenario. Much like Apple, Valve takes a 25% cut of sale to cover infrastructure, legal, and other associated distribution costs, but in this case there is also a intellectual property owner involved. Without Bethesda's consent, then this wouldn't get off the ground.

As much as I loathe Valve's shoddy implementation, they're also kicking back, what, up to 5% of their own share (of the overall 100%) to entities of the mod author's choosing? So that's nice. I do think it's kind of scummy that Bethesda's taking so much from the people that have added so much value to their game for free over the years, but as with many scummy things, it's well within their legal right to do so.
 
That example is continually trotted out, but it is not relevant in this scenario. Much like Apple, Valve takes a 25% cut of sale to cover infrastructure, legal, and other associated distribution costs, but in this case there is also a intellectual property owner involved. Without Bethesda's consent, then this wouldn't get off the ground.

Bethesda has been complicit in a system that has benefited them the most. I've never heard of them paying great modders for supporting their classic games years past the point they abandoned them. Skyrim will sell for a great while because modders have continually made the game feel new and exciting with their work. Now a system is in place where by publishers benefit even further. This is Valve proposing a solution to a problem that does not exist.

I think I made this point in my initial post. Which you quoted only a part of my argument.
 
It's not even a "what if".

There's already people stealing mods from the Nexus, there's already "premium mods" using copyrighted music, and already mod authors being complete sleazebags about their paid versions (like the Midas Magic one).

In just a couple of days shit went haywire. I really don't get where people say the concerns are "what ifs". There's already problems NOW.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Valve's system will solve problems in the wider modding community? Is that it?

Edit: I see what you mean. Paid mods are already an issue.
 
As much as I loathe Valve's shoddy implementation, they're also kicking back, what, up to 5% of their own share (of the overall 100%) to entities of the mod author's choosing? So that's nice. I do think it's kind of scummy that Bethesda's taking so much from the people that have added so much value to their game for free over the years, but as with many scummy things, it's well within their legal right to do so.

Bethesda has been complicit in a system that has benefited them the most. I've never heard of them paying great modders for supporting their classic games years past the point they abandoned them. Skyrim will sell for a great while because modders have continually made the game feel new and exciting with their work. Now a system is in place where by publishers benefit even further. This is Valve proposing a solution to a problem that does not exist.

I think I made this point in my initial post. Which you quoted only a part of my argument.

I find Bethesda's cut ludicrous as well considering the success they have enjoyed under modding.
 
Isn't it probable that games in the future will be more likely to have modding tools because of the system Valve has set into place?

There you have a real what if.

Based on the current system, I'm not sure anybody else wants to wade in there.
 
-Trading Cards
-Hats
-CS GO weapons
-Greenlight
-Early Access
-Auto-Updating Patches
-Endless "friend" requests
-Third Party DRM
-Steam Curators
-Free to Play
-Workshop (new!)

I've seriously reached a point where I ALMOST wish PC gaming was still buy a CD, drive home, install game. When did something fun get so complicated?

You mean the time where almost every game came with crappy DRM that had activation limits? Third party DRM is not a new thing in the slightest and if anything Steam contributed greatly to the extinction of idiotic DRM for the most part.
And even then your list is a crappy list. You can still buy a game, install it and play. Hell, it's more simple than it ever was.

And let's check each one of your list individually:

Trading Cards - Doesn't affect you in the slightest. It's not preventing you from playing anything. It's nothing more than a little bonus that you can ignore completely and make a couple bucks on your steam wallet if you want
-Hats - That's on TF2. Dunno what the point is here
-CS GO weapons - that´s, like.... on CS:GO only... I don't understand what's the point here.
-Greenlight - You don't have to use Greenlight
-Early Access - You can customize your storefront so it doesn't show Early Access games
-Auto-Updating Patches- How the hell is this a bad thing or something that complicates things? This makes things much more fucking simple than before. You remember the times where you put a CD and installed, yet you don't remember how you would have to go to third party sites to download patches?
-Endless "friend" requests - Yeah, it's crappy. But being dealt with
-Third Party DRM -As I said above the DRM on those days was much worse
-Steam Curators - I agree they should let us disable them if we don't want them on our storefront,yeah.
-Free to Play- You can just not play them
-Workshop (new!) - Workshop ain't really "new". And again, I don't see how having a page where you can easily download mods is something that complicates stuff more. You are aware that you have to jump through way more hoops if you want to install a mod in the regular way, right.
 
Isn't it probable that games in the future will be more likely to have modding tools because of the system Valve has set into place?

Yes, I can see that. But then I think of a scenario in which Activision lets the community build there own maps in COD. Now those creators grabbing a 25% cut on Activision's IP may seem like a grand thing but once the millions the publisher makes dwarfs that by far if it gets big enough. Then you have a situation where publishers are monetizing one of the best parts of PC gaming that used to be done for free out of a passion. Once the rabbit hole gets deep enough you don't go back.

Is it within their right? Yes, most likely. But I feel companies are going to find a way to ruin a way of life once money is involved. This is EA, UBI, and co. watching this I bet.
 
Isn't it probable that games in the future will be more likely to have modding tools because of the system Valve has set into place?
This is my take on this aswell. They might make more money if they add modding capabilities. So that's what they'll do. And the result is that we might have full Steam Workshop functionality in games like DOA5LR too. Why are people complaining again?
 
More than anything Gabe's answers made it clear that either Valve really didn't think this through, or they did and simply didn't care.

Valve haven't cared for a while. They made so many missteps over these last couple of years and they hoped their builtup goodwill would make them immune. With this debacle they found out the hard way.
 
I wish this thread didn't exist and none of this happened until there was a system that is coherent. Valve let this happen. They knew this wouldn't inspire anything. Why would someone work harder when they earn way less than they did in donations? Like what the fuck. I know Bethesda chose the percentages but Valve didn't have to let it happen. Not like this.
 
I find the lack of concern people have for what's undeniably happening to Skyrim's (indeed, TES and Bethesda's as a whole) established mod scene at this very moment disheartening. No matter how anyone tries to rationalize Valve's attempt at paid mods, this is ravaging Skyrim's modding community. The Elder Scrolls modding has been going on for 19 years counting the first notable attempts with Daggerfall, and for 13 years with official development kit tools since Morrowind. There are many, many thousands of mods for the series spanning all those years (many of which are nothing short of amazing) and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE WAS FOR MONEY.


Bethesda's games (especially on PC) are largely only popular because of that free mod scene, they've already benefited greatly from growing word of mouth, goodwill, and ultimately sales from all the community effort with the intention of improving or expanding upon the game for the sake of it or at best, indirect efforts to make a name for oneself. Similarly, Valve also benefit from those sales (Workshop's mere existence undoubtedly helps).


That both companies, especially Bethesda, have the gall to try and suck more from it is disgusting, imho. They're illustrating absolutely no respect for the modders or modding community who, if anything, they ought to be paying for cleaning up their garbage and polishing their reputation and games' worth immeasurably. Skyrim was a massive success and to this day remains at the top of Steam's charts because of this. People will bring up modders getting paid, but it's never been about that with TES modding and no one in the right mind would go into the hobby considering it. It never turned any monetary profits directly.


Instead of any such gratitude or contentment in allowing this to continue unfettered to their own benefit, the response from these companies is to monetize what became popular because it was free (facilitating easy use and disuse of a plethora of mods by pretty much every PC version owner, greatly contributing to the games' lasting and growing popularity) and then take inordinate cuts of it, seemingly forgetting the free part is what made it so enticing and positive to consumers, unrestrained (by legality conflicts) in terms of content creation, and productive in terms of modder collaboration. They did it with an existing and established game/community too, tearing it asunder in the most reckless manner possible with strife and opening up mods to a complicated mess of legal, ethical (mod theft and fear of such rightfully necessitating the removal of mods from Nexus by their creators), and retroactive (free mods become paid) issues.


Valve and Bethesda have lost all respect from this long-time Elder Scrolls fan and I've already committed myself to avoiding the former whenever I can (got TW3 from GOG instead) and as for the latter, I've already been growing discontent with their base games but at least they had such a proactive stance on mods which could fix a lot of their issues. But now they've placed themselves in a position where they would benefit from the mod revenue to have their UI and bugs fixed even? Unacceptable.


As for the premise of getting paid for making mods, ignoring the appalling cuts taken by the companies overseeing it, you were always doing things wrong if you went into TES modding for money as it's literally never been a factor in nearly two decades. It was never an incentive before and the community thrived for it (unified, too). It was a thing of beauty, but introducing money into any system always has ramifications and impact on motivation. It's basic human psychology. Some people will insist work demands payment, but it is a fact that TES modding has always been a hobbyist thing and it has thrived for it as have many modding communities.


Plenty of things individuals benefit from all day for free are made in such a way. Are we to pay to watch Youtube videos as well? What about viewing fan art? Reading fan fiction? Using all and any open source software? Reading a thought-out forum post? Do we apply this paid mod system retroactively to all games of the past as well? No, not all people will make mods for money, but it will always play a role in community division, motivational factors, cross-"licensing" of underlying mods, difficulty in quality regulation, IP-infringement, and disgusting behaviors such as ripping off other people's work and trying to sell it (that fear alone is negatively impacting Nexus as of now).


Paid mods simply cannot be properly and fully regulated, not while remaining community mods rather than outsourced DLC and they just drive a giant nail through the modding community as a whole.
Well said.
 
Yes, I can see that. But then I think of a scenario in which Activision lets the community build there own maps in COD. Now those creators grabbing a 25% cut on Activision's IP may seem like a grand thing but once the millions the publisher makes dwarfs that by far if it gets big enough.

If it reaches to the millions mark for the publisher I'm going to bet that the modders would be making more money than the actual people employed to make the official DLC maps.
 
I find the lack of concern people have for what's undeniably happening to Skyrim's (indeed, TES and Bethesda's as a whole) established mod scene at this very moment disheartening. No matter how anyone tries to rationalize Valve's attempt at paid mods, this is ravaging Skyrim's modding community. The Elder Scrolls modding has been going on for 19 years counting the first notable attempts with Daggerfall, and for 13 years with official development kit tools since Morrowind. There are many, many thousands of mods for the series spanning all those years (many of which are nothing short of amazing) and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE WAS FOR MONEY.


Bethesda's games (especially on PC) are largely only popular because of that free mod scene, they've already benefited greatly from growing word of mouth, goodwill, and ultimately sales from all the community effort with the intention of improving or expanding upon the game for the sake of it or at best, indirect efforts to make a name for oneself. Similarly, Valve also benefit from those sales (Workshop's mere existence undoubtedly helps).


That both companies, especially Bethesda, have the gall to try and suck more from it is disgusting, imho. They're illustrating absolutely no respect for the modders or modding community who, if anything, they ought to be paying for cleaning up their garbage and polishing their reputation and games' worth immeasurably. Skyrim was a massive success and to this day remains at the top of Steam's charts because of this. People will bring up modders getting paid, but it's never been about that with TES modding and no one in the right mind would go into the hobby considering it. It never turned any monetary profits directly.


Instead of any such gratitude or contentment in allowing this to continue unfettered to their own benefit, the response from these companies is to monetize what became popular because it was free (facilitating easy use and disuse of a plethora of mods by pretty much every PC version owner, greatly contributing to the games' lasting and growing popularity) and then take inordinate cuts of it, seemingly forgetting the free part is what made it so enticing and positive to consumers, unrestrained (by legality conflicts) in terms of content creation, and productive in terms of modder collaboration. They did it with an existing and established game/community too, tearing it asunder in the most reckless manner possible with strife and opening up mods to a complicated mess of legal, ethical (mod theft and fear of such rightfully necessitating the removal of mods from Nexus by their creators), and retroactive (free mods become paid) issues.


Valve and Bethesda have lost all respect from this long-time Elder Scrolls fan and I've already committed myself to avoiding the former whenever I can (got TW3 from GOG instead) and as for the latter, I've already been growing discontent with their base games but at least they had such a proactive stance on mods which could fix a lot of their issues. But now they've placed themselves in a position where they would benefit from the mod revenue to have their UI and bugs fixed even? Unacceptable.


As for the premise of getting paid for making mods, ignoring the appalling cuts taken by the companies overseeing it, you were always doing things wrong if you went into TES modding for money as it's literally never been a factor in nearly two decades. It was never an incentive before and the community thrived for it (unified, too). It was a thing of beauty, but introducing money into any system always has ramifications and impact on motivation. It's basic human psychology. Some people will insist work demands payment, but it is a fact that TES modding has always been a hobbyist thing and it has thrived for it as have many modding communities.


Plenty of things individuals benefit from all day for free are made in such a way. Are we to pay to watch Youtube videos as well? What about viewing fan art? Reading fan fiction? Using all and any open source software? Reading a thought-out forum post? Do we apply this paid mod system retroactively to all games of the past as well? No, not all people will make mods for money, but it will always play a role in community division, motivational factors, cross-"licensing" of underlying mods, difficulty in quality regulation, IP-infringement, and disgusting behaviors such as ripping off other people's work and trying to sell it (that fear alone is negatively impacting Nexus as of now).


Paid mods simply cannot be properly and fully regulated, not while remaining community mods rather than outsourced DLC and they just drive a giant nail through the modding community as a whole.

One hell of a post. I salute you.
 
Isn't it probable that games in the future will be more likely to have modding tools because of the system Valve has set into place?

I think "probable" is a bit of a stretch.

One of the theories as to why you're seeing fewer official modding tools nowadays (like from Dragon Age) is that 1) they actually take time and money to implement, and with increased technical complexity and requirements and so many games shipping unfinished with bugs, building a user-friendly modding toolset isn't a priority, and 2) free mods take away interest from DLC the publisher could be selling itself - e.g. alternate costume packs.

Now supposedly if the publisher also sees a cut from Valve, then their hesitation due to reason number 2 is decreased, because they'll see money either way. But then the question becomes - will they allow modding toolsets to be used to create free content that can be hosted anywhere, or only content hosted on Valve that they have control over and can get proceeds from? What incentive would a publisher have to put resources into a modding tool that allows for the creation of free content that competes with its own DLC? So you might have a situation where "official" modding tools come with significant strings attached.

Also, from what I've seen so far, Valve's curation doesn't seem to be completely impartial. Lots of joke Skyrim mods that are even slightly satirical aren't getting approved and have already been removed from the store (e.g. all the ones featured in this Kotaku article). So how far will publisher control extend? Will they be able to deny approval of mods that compete with their own content? With anything adult-themed or that satirizes / parodies the game? Who knows, but already it looks nothing like the free-wheeling modding scene that existed and flourished even without the assistance of "official" tools.
 
I find the lack of concern people have for what's undeniably happening to Skyrim's (indeed, TES and Bethesda's as a whole) established mod scene at this very moment disheartening. No matter how anyone tries to rationalize Valve's attempt at paid mods, this is ravaging Skyrim's modding community. The Elder Scrolls modding has been going on for 19 years counting the first notable attempts with Daggerfall, and for 13 years with official development kit tools since Morrowind. There are many, many thousands of mods for the series spanning all those years (many of which are nothing short of amazing) and NOT ONE SINGLE ONE WAS FOR MONEY.


Bethesda's games (especially on PC) are largely only popular because of that free mod scene, they've already benefited greatly from growing word of mouth, goodwill, and ultimately sales from all the community effort with the intention of improving or expanding upon the game for the sake of it or at best, indirect efforts to make a name for oneself. Similarly, Valve also benefit from those sales (Workshop's mere existence undoubtedly helps).


That both companies, especially Bethesda, have the gall to try and suck more from it is disgusting, imho. They're illustrating absolutely no respect for the modders or modding community who, if anything, they ought to be paying for cleaning up their garbage and polishing their reputation and games' worth immeasurably. Skyrim was a massive success and to this day remains at the top of Steam's charts because of this. People will bring up modders getting paid, but it's never been about that with TES modding and no one in the right mind would go into the hobby considering it. It never turned any monetary profits directly.


Instead of any such gratitude or contentment in allowing this to continue unfettered to their own benefit, the response from these companies is to monetize what became popular because it was free (facilitating easy use and disuse of a plethora of mods by pretty much every PC version owner, greatly contributing to the games' lasting and growing popularity) and then take inordinate cuts of it, seemingly forgetting the free part is what made it so enticing and positive to consumers, unrestrained (by legality conflicts) in terms of content creation, and productive in terms of modder collaboration. They did it with an existing and established game/community too, tearing it asunder in the most reckless manner possible with strife and opening up mods to a complicated mess of legal, ethical (mod theft and fear of such rightfully necessitating the removal of mods from Nexus by their creators), and retroactive (free mods become paid) issues.


Valve and Bethesda have lost all respect from this long-time Elder Scrolls fan and I've already committed myself to avoiding the former whenever I can (got TW3 from GOG instead) and as for the latter, I've already been growing discontent with their base games but at least they had such a proactive stance on mods which could fix a lot of their issues. But now they've placed themselves in a position where they would benefit from the mod revenue to have their UI and bugs fixed even? Unacceptable.


As for the premise of getting paid for making mods, ignoring the appalling cuts taken by the companies overseeing it, you were always doing things wrong if you went into TES modding for money as it's literally never been a factor in nearly two decades. It was never an incentive before and the community thrived for it (unified, too). It was a thing of beauty, but introducing money into any system always has ramifications and impact on motivation. It's basic human psychology. Some people will insist work demands payment, but it is a fact that TES modding has always been a hobbyist thing and it has thrived for it as have many modding communities.


Plenty of things individuals benefit from all day for free are made in such a way. Are we to pay to watch Youtube videos as well? What about viewing fan art? Reading fan fiction? Using all and any open source software? Reading a thought-out forum post? Do we apply this paid mod system retroactively to all games of the past as well? No, not all people will make mods for money, but it will always play a role in community division, motivational factors, cross-"licensing" of underlying mods, difficulty in quality regulation, IP-infringement, and disgusting behaviors such as ripping off other people's work and trying to sell it (that fear alone is negatively impacting Nexus as of now).


Paid mods simply cannot be properly and fully regulated, not while remaining community mods rather than outsourced DLC and they just drive a giant nail through the modding community as a whole.
well said

This whole thing is a mess and should have never happened.
 
I'm a pretty heavy PC gamer and it's really not that hard to ignore everything on there. Except for third-party DRM.

Also auto-updating patches are a good thing. Rather that than hunting for patches like people used to do.

I agree, almost everything listed there is easy to ignore.

Though, in some ways I do still miss just buying a boxed copy of a game and taking it hope to play. I also miss the days when you didn't have to be connected online to play your favorite games, though even this can be circumvented with services like GOG.

But even back then, there was never any reassurance that your game would run out of the box. There were so many times when I would need to download some sort of patch from fileplanet or gamershell, or install the latest video drives from nVidia or ATi to get a game to work. On disc DRM used to be such a nightmare too, I still shutter when I think of SecuriROM. Sure you can say that Steam is DRM too (and it is), but I never really found it to be intrusive DRM that tries to hijack my PC.


My biggest issue is that the modders only get 25% off the money.

80% is the absolute lowest acceptable amount, and that's lower than I would recommend. I'd say 90-95% is what's fair.

This annoys me too. But at the same time, I don't really think this is Valve trying to take a huge cut out of this pie, it is really the publishers who want to capitalize on this, because it is their game that is supporting the mods. This is pretty much just free DLC for the publishers that they didn't have to sync any development time or money into.
 
Isn't it pretty hyperbolic to state that Bethesda games are largely popular due to mods when their console versions do incredibly well despite being technical messes that can't be fixed by modders?

I would agree that modding is a big selling point for the PC versions but I don't think it's accurate to say that Bethesda is only popular due to mods.
 
I agree, almost everything listed there is easy to ignore.

Though, in some ways I do still miss just buying a boxed copy of a game and taking it hope to play. I also miss the days when you didn't have to be connected online to play your favorite games, though even this can be circumvented with services like GOG.

But even back then, there was never any reassurance that your game would run out of the box. There were so many times when I would need to download some sort of patch from fileplanet or gamershell, or install the latest video drives from nVidia or ATi to get a game to work. On disc DRM used to be such a nightmare too, I still shutter when I think of SecuriROM. Sure you can say that Steam is DRM too (and it is), but I never really found it to be intrusive DRM that tries to hijack my PC.




This annoys me too. But at the same time, I don't really think this is Valve trying to take a huge cut out of this pie, it is really the publishers who want to capitalize on this, because it is their game that is supporting the mods. This is pretty much just free DLC for the publishers that they didn't have to sync any development time or money into.

You don't have to be online to play Steam games(unless they have third party DRM that does that)
 
You mean the time where almost every game came with crappy DRM that had activation limits? Third party DRM is not a new thing in the slightest and if anything Steam contributed greatly to the extinction of idiotic DRM for the most part.
And even then your list is a crappy list. You can still buy a game, install it and play. Hell, it's more simple than it ever was.

And let's check each one of your list individually:

Trading Cards - Doesn't affect you in the slightest. It's not preventing you from playing anything. It's nothing more than a little bonus that you can ignore completely and make a couple bucks on your steam wallet if you want
-Hats - That's on TF2. Dunno what the point is here
-CS GO weapons - that´s, like.... on CS:GO only... I don't understand what's the point here.
-Greenlight - You don't have to use Greenlight
-Early Access - You can customize your storefront so it doesn't show Early Access games
-Auto-Updating Patches- How the hell is this a bad thing or something that complicates things? This makes things much more fucking simple than before. You remember the times where you put a CD and installed, yet you don't remember how you would have to go to third party sites to download patches?
-Endless "friend" requests - Yeah, it's crappy. But being dealt with
-Third Party DRM -As I said above the DRM on those days was much worse
-Steam Curators - I agree they should let us disable them if we don't want them on our storefront,yeah.
-Free to Play- You can just not play them
-Workshop (new!) - Workshop ain't really "new". And again, I don't see how having a page where you can easily download mods is something that complicates stuff more. You are aware that you have to jump through way more hoops if you want to install a mod in the regular way, right.

I'm not saying these features are evil. Valve created all of them with good intentions. But none of the ones I have listed are in good shape (trading cards are harmless, just not as good as people originally hoped). Of course I can ignore/not play all these features Valve fostered.

The Mod thing just seems to be extra terrible right out of the gate.

Auto updating patches is a huge deal by the way. Patch blockers just stopped working. This could be a nightmare if you want a non-paid mod to work in the future.
 
That's more than what professional game developers get.

Those folks are selling much more expensive products, on average, than modders, and to a much wider audience. I'm not sure where the notion that a $1 sword is equal to a $60 AAA title came from, but it's not helping.
 
People who claim to "not understand" the backlash are either being cute in an attempt to make a point or are blessed with an incredibly short memory. Much of what now costs money in gaming used to be just a part of the experience. Some monetization is to be expected, but if you can look at the state of DLC, paying for the privilege of playing your games online and companies creating more and more vectors for DLC injection and be happy with the situation, I don't know what to say.

PC and mods have gone hand in hand since day 1. Mods have fixed broken games that have become known as the best the platform has to offer, from Arcanum to Baldur's Gate II to Oblivion. Bethesda allowing this for their games is particularly abhorrent, as much of the enjoyment out of every single one of their games has come from the long shelf life provided by modders.

Modders like Oscura have made careers out of their abilities and naturally formed fanbases. OOO saved Oblivion and Bethesda hired him. Very often, modders like him would create things that would be much better than anything the base team could come up with.

Just as often, though, they would create something that would break your game and you'd have to either uninstall or fix it. But hey, they were free, so no worries. Now, unlike say, DLC on XBL, there is no quality control and a price tag. Valve cannot reasonable test every mod that goes up for sale. But they can still make money off allowing the sales of broken mods through their service.

If you're still "confused" as to what the big deal is, Valve has essentially set up an easily abused system of monetization, with no possibility of oversight, no possible repercussions for people selling broken mods and no actual benefit to the end user. Combine that with their legendarily bad customer service, the immediate censorship that took place following the decision and the fact that this flies in the face of the very heart and soul of PC gaming as it has always stood, and maybe some of the "confusion" will start to fade.
 
I wish this thread didn't exist and none of this happened until there was a system that is coherent. Valve let this happen. They knew this wouldn't inspire anything. Why would someone work harder when they earn way less than they did in donations? Like what the fuck. I know Bethesda chose the percentages but Valve didn't have to let it happen. Not like this.

You could be wrong about that.

People spend money for shit all the time. Some like Bounch who has posted here has made making Dota 2 items a full time job so yeah, there could be money with this.

Fact is, having all the mods in one place with easy installs and payments is not something anyone should underestimate.
 
Isn't it pretty hyperbolic to state that Bethesda games are largely popular due to mods when their console versions do incredibly well despite being technical messes that can't be fixed by modders?

I would agree that modding is a big selling point for the PC versions but I don't think it's accurate to say that Bethesda is only popular due to mods.

Well, I did say largely and especially on PC. You could attribute the implication to a wording oversight, but just to humor a random idea, mods can very well still be responsible (at least partially) for Bethesda's massive explosion in popularity on platforms that don't have access to mods, only in a more indirect way. Morrowind was originally a very PC-centric game and its positive reputation as an open sandbox in which you can do anything was very arguably enhanced and perpetuated by its fairly unique modding community, contributing to Bethesda's breakout success on consoles with Oblivion (some initial with Morrowind) due to lasting fan recommendation and positive regard. Similarly, there was a very large time gap between Oblivion and Skyrim but mods kept Oblivion as a highly recognized and positively-regarded title during that time.


Inversely, if people start bombarding Bethesda game user reviews in outrage over paid mods, it may hurt their general reputation and have some effect across multiple platforms (perhaps delayed to a future game for any significant effects). People don't always have to know the details of review reasoning and reputation to be influenced by it and what is positively regarded on one platform often has enough title/brand recognition to be successful once ported to another platform even if all the strengths of the title contributing to its popularity don't make the transition (see: bullshots).


Basically, mods keep Bethesda's games in the spotlight for years after release and other people other than PC gamers are perhaps influenced by that.
 
People who claim to "not understand" the backlash are either being cute in an attempt to make a point or are blessed with an incredibly short memory. Much of what now costs money in gaming used to be just a part of the experience. Some monetization is to be expected, but if you can look at the state of DLC, paying for the privilege of playing your games online and companies creating more and more vectors for DLC injection and be happy with the situation, I don't know what to say.

PC and mods have gone hand in hand since day 1. Mods have fixed broken games that have become known as the best the platform has to offer, from Arcanum to Baldur's Gate II to Oblivion. Bethesda allowing this for their games is particularly abhorrent, as much of the enjoyment out of every single one of their games has come from the long shelf life provided by modders.

Modders like Oscura have made careers out of their abilities and naturally formed fanbases. OOO saved Oblivion and Bethesda hired him. Very often, modders like him would create things that would be much better than anything the base team could come up with.

Just as often, though, they would create something that would break your game and you'd have to either uninstall or fix it. But hey, they were free, so no worries. Now, unlike say, DLC on XBL, there is no quality control and a price tag. Valve cannot reasonable test every mod that goes up for sale. But they can still make money off allowing the sales of broken mods through their service.

If you're still "confused" as to what the big deal is, Valve has essentially set up an easily abused system of monetization, with no possibility of oversight, no possible repercussions for people selling broken mods and no actual benefit to the end user. Combine that with their legendarily bad customer service, the immediate censorship that took place following the decision and the fact that this flies in the face of the very heart and soul of PC gaming as it has always stood, and maybe some of the "confusion" will start to fade.
It's the future of valve sadly. They would rather let everyone else make their own content and make a cut instead of mailing their service better or games.

It's why green light was started in the first place. They didn't want to pay for proper quality control and a developer relations team.

I mean this is like of suddenly deviantart created a commsion system for fanart that gave money to Disney.

This whole thing takes what was the the biggest upside in pc games and throws a monkey wrench in it.
 
Broke down that answer very well. People have said that answer was direct and i dont get how anyone could read it and say that.

Because he gave the only answer that was true? That they are working on it, don't have it solved yet, but recognize that it's a problem.

What would you say if you were in the exact same situation>?
 
Because he gave the only answer that was true? That they are working on it, don't have it solved yet, but recognize that it's a problem.

What would you say if you were in the exact same situation>?

Gabe on Steam's terrible customer support (an extremely important thing for any other company):

"We have short term hacks and longer term solutions coming, but the longer term good solutions involve writing a bunch of code. In the interim, it's going to be a sore point "

Dude basically said we'll fix it when we get around to it which may be in 2020 or what the fuck ever writing code is hard so suck my Steamy dick down.
 
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