Support NeoGAF

[Amir0x]

I fucking LOVE Lotro music. One of the reasons I play the game so much.

I like these as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6YAA8Nxm4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PioKSsyeX3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnFxamaQ4bg

I forgot the one at Tom Bombadil's house. Fucking incredible track.

LOTRO's music is actually genuinely good enough to be put alongside the top ten all-time game soundtracks. It is so well developed and suited to each individual region that it's obscene. In MMORPGs, you tend to hear certain tracks SO OFTEN that it's worth just putting on your own soundtrack. LOTRO is one of the only MMORPGs I've ever played where I didn't change the music.

Fuck LOTRO music is good. Just listening to it makes me want to travel back to the world Turbine created, it's so evocative.

 

[Guled]

I love the music in FO3, licensed tracks fit the game so well, it really captured the mood of the game.

 

[LoganKnight4949]

This article/thread is a prime example of people spouting off nonsense while wearing their "nostalgia rose tinted glasses."

 

[Freshmaker]

Bit better than bleeps and bloops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiKDUb-CYpY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUuEP-2csqw&feature=channel

 

[BrokenSymmetry]

There is only one example needed to show how modern, orchestral game scores can be deeply melodic and emotional: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y96Y2JE5F8

 

[Mar]

Oh cool. Another thread where Amir0x dismisses everything using the word 'nostalgia'.

Obviously, anything made in the past is crap because it's old! Get with the times guys. Everything today is automatically better.

 

[LoganKnight4949]

Oh cool. Another thread where Amir0x dismisses everything using the word 'nostalgia'.

Obviously, anything made in the past is crap because it's old! Get with the times guys. Everything today is automatically better.

You also hear this a lot:

"Obviously, anything made in the past is better. You missed the good old days. Everything today is automatically worse."

So anyways, there were some games in the old days that had incredibly great music, considering the limitations they had, however, it's silly to say old music is more "memorable" because obviously, you'll only remember the memorable stuff. I guarantee that most of us don't remember the music from generic platform game #4234 for NES, just as we don't remember the music from generic FPS game #52312 for PC/360/PS3.

 

[urk]

@ Brandon:

Quote "...I find the music of John Williams to be quite generic..."

I respect your opinion (don't have to agree with it... but I respect it), and if that's the case then I completely understand now why you don't prefer or can't appreciate modern symphonic game music. I would just ask you to consider that I believe in terms of taste, you are very much in the minority in regards to the melodic and composing achievements of Mr. Williams.

Jaws?, Schindler's List?, Gilligan's Island?, Fiddler on the Roof?, Empire of the Sun?, E.T.?, Amistad?, A.I.?, Memoirs of a Geisha?

Generic?? Hmm...

I personally think you're statement may be selling Meastro Williams a little short (and I didn't even bother to reference Star Wars, Indy, Superman, Harry Potter or Jurassic Park), but as we've all already stated... music is subjective.

I mean, clearly it is! Keep in mind that in your original article you stated "Every video game fan recognizes the sweeping tones of Road Rash."

Really? Do you really believe that? Maybe you personally loved Road Rash... but do you honestly think every video game fan recognizes it? Not to take anything away from Road Rash of course... I personally love it as well, but to use that as a basis that modern game music isn't as good, recognizable and revered as Road Rash is a pretty weak arguement in my opinion. You also stated that you felt Gears of Wars is one of the most iconic soundtracks of modern games. That's cool. I'm just not sure most gamers would agree and have the same opinion.

I also respectfully disagree with your comment that some modern games are okay because it has one or two good songs but you feel the rest of the soundtrack is a "missed opportunity" because the music isn't as strong as your two favorites. It would take me awhile to explain the issues or questions I have with that statement, so I won't go into it... but I would like add that I'm guessing you probably may not be able to remember and hum every level from every Zelda or Castlevania game you've ever played.

I personally think it all boils down to this...

You're always going to love the music you grew up with and nothing that comes after it will ever live up to what you cherished when you were growing up.

Keeping that in consideration, I think it insults and hurts a lot of people (and is a little unfair) to make statements like "these days it's quite difficult to identify one game soundtrack from another", modern game music is "uninspired", "Most game music these days is boring.", "actual melody in games is rare."

Thanks for you time in reading and responding. No ill feelings I hope. None here. Thanks for the discussion.

Tommy

The only original thought I'll add is that the music from the older games being brought up in this thread would be absurd as audio backdrops for many of today's titles (the converse is also true).

 

[Amir0x]

Oh cool. Another thread where Amir0x dismisses everything using the word 'nostalgia'.

Obviously, anything made in the past is crap because it's old! Get with the times guys. Everything today is automatically better.

Another post where Mar_ displays he is incapable of reading, thus failing at any and all basic comprehension skills.

I wish I could say that was surprising, but we've been through that song and dance before:

Strawman. I have not once argued that old NES-style music is "bad". Quite the contrary, there are plenty of fond, memorable tracks from the old days, and many games today take influences directly from that time.

My argument was purely that videogame music today is not worse than old music, but simply far more complex, diverse and developed. You may love some old music better, you may even have that as your preference, but there is absolutely no way there is something systemically wrong with game music today.

From this very thread, no less.

I'll be over here when your knees stop jerking.

 

[Mar]

From this very thread, no less.

You'll forgive me for not reading all 4 pages. But yes, I agree with your point there. I wouldn't say modern game music is any worse than the old stuff. There have been some amazing sound tracks for modern games, and just as many memorable as that of the past.

I always take issue with people playing the 'invalid due to nostalgia' card. Which seems to be a favourite play of yours, and there were cases of that in this thread.

Anyway, as you said. We've been through this many times and there's no need to go through it again. I'll leave it at that.

 

[teh_pwn]

I think it's the complete opposite. Turn on the radio and you'll hear the same poorly composed teenage angst/slutty music that is mostly using guitar/drums/bass.

Then listen to Nobuo Uematsu, who seems to utilize nearly every instrument ever created and mixes styles ranging over centuries.

Uematsu is just one video game composer.


Edit: I missed the nostalgia point. And I disagree. There's plenty of good music this generation. Harder to find with JRPGs because all of the good ones went freelance and aren't composing for big franchises anymore.

 

[Amir0x]

I played the "nostalga card" when it is appropriate. When someone says there is something systemtically wrong with game music today versus the game music of old, that is nostalgia. Rose-tinted glasses. Ignorance. You pick your choice, because it is that and only that. There is no other way to describe that sort of viewpoint, considering the vast diversity in music today which even INCLUDES classic tracks of the NES-style variety.

 

[ThaiGrocer]

There is nothing wrong with game music.

 

[shintoki]

I really don't see how they are even comparable. Back then, it was more like coming up with a catching jingle which would then be replayed throughout every level. Now they actually have to have scores, full songs, themes, and more. So much more.

 

[Firestorm]

I really don't see how they are even comparable. Back then, it was more like coming up with a catching jingle which would then be replayed throughout every level. Now they actually have to have scores, full songs, themes, and more. So much more.

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Composers don't have to make a 30 second loop anymore so it's not pounded into your head as much. The only games that really can do this are jRPGs with battle music. Then again, jRPGs are probably the games which keep most old-school conventions with regards to music. Each town still has the its own little dedicated music, battles have music, each emotional bit has "the emotional" music playing, etc.

Most modern games on the other hand don't use the same track throughout for all related scenes although they might reuse parts of tracks. As pointed out earlier, it's a little like movies. Played less, you probably remember them less.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

What I've learned from this thread:

1: There is a Rockman 9 Arrange soundtrack
2: It sucks especially compared to the original

Both are true.

 

[Mar]

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head there. Composers don't have to make a 30 second loop anymore so it's not pounded into your head as much. The only games that really can do this are jRPGs with battle music. Then again, jRPGs are probably the games which keep most old-school conventions with regards to music. Each town still has the its own little dedicated music, battles have music, each emotional bit has "the emotional" music playing, etc.

Most modern games on the other hand don't use the same track throughout for all related scenes although they might reuse parts of tracks. As pointed out earlier, it's a little like movies. Played less, you probably remember them less.

Except it's wrong.

Not every game was Bubble Bobble. In fact most games that I love even way back in to the 80s, had fully featured sound tracks with songs that go for 10 minutes or more before looping. One of my particular favourite tracks of music went for 26 minutes before looping.

In fact one could argue to the contrary. That older games had to use full music tracks more than modern games. Because back then technical limitations meant they couldn't use sound effects and music at the same time. Nor atmospheric triggers that would play at certain points. Instead, they had full songs for every level in just about every game.

 

[sprsk]

8-bit games focused on compositions 32-bit until now focus on fidelity and orchestration.

Not everyone can be a John Williams, but man, seems like a lot of people wish they were!

 

[DDayton]

Most modern games on the other hand don't use the same track throughout for all related scenes although they might reuse parts of tracks. As pointed out earlier, it's a little like movies. Played less, you probably remember them less.

Except that some very good movies DO reuse the same themes frequently.

Imagine Star Wars with nothing but environmental/ambient music.

(...and there is a difference between a 2 hour film and a 10-20-???? hour game - not sure how to deal with that at the moment, but logically you'd have to repeat a hefty chunk of music in it, really. That or just dump the music.)

Not everyone can be a John Williams, but man, seems like a lot of people wish they were!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7TNNb_W3U

 

[Salazar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uyBKFIhoyc

Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation. I don't think the game in general is rated as highly as it ought to be, but the music—all of it, all through it—is just pure class and thick, lively atmosphere.

 

[Haruspex]

I think video-game music is a very special entity, it has to do more than just complement the visuals, it also has to link with the players actions. I guess as games have become more complex it has been harder for developers to link sound to input so they just stick a homogenous 'epic' score on top of everything. I think this links with the general trend in gaming towards evoking a (convential)'cinematic' feel, where everything is grandiose, bombastic and wagnerian in scale. This worship at the altar of cinema (Hollywood) also misses the fact that video-games are interactive, and that sound and music should be interactive too. Nintendo I feel understand the sensory pleasure of linking sound to your gameplay input, right back to Super Mario Bros. with the instantly recognisable 'boing' of the jump or the 'ching' of the coins.

Again if you take Super Mario Bros. for example, its not just the little ditty or melody that we remember, but the music is an abstract representation of the character movements, the locomotive sense of acceleration that you get. The music and sound effects are the most immediate form of feedback for the player, you can tell if a game has good sound design because it will be much more difficult and disorienting to play if you switch the sound off. Sound in games has to be more than just a backdrop, it should be an invisible HUD.

That's not to say that video-game music and sounds must correspond to what's happening on screen, I don't entirely agree with folks like Koji Kondo who, because they have their grounding in musical theory, think there should be a 'golden mean' of sorts where music is balanced and returns to the same key. There are many artistic possibilities offered by the use of dissonance, of noise, of warping the sense of space and movement of the player through sound.

I have so many ideas on video-game music and sound that I'm finding it hard put them into a structured coherent post at the moment. I could write tomes on the subject the more I thought about it.

 

[Pureauthor]

Good music remains good music whether it's catchy, ambient, orchestrated, synthesized, or created by banging the lid of an empty dustbin. The rest is your personal preference.

 

[eXistor]

Fuck LOTRO music is good. Just listening to it makes me want to travel back to the world Turbine created, it's so evocative.

You should really start listening to Irish music then (if you didn't already). If you like LotRo's soundtrack might I suggest the Chieftains? Water from the Well is a good one.

 

[Adam Prime]

You want to talk about excellent music. Listen to the Ace Attorney soundtracks. GBA music at its finest.

 

[loosus]

It's partially because of all you "it gotta be orchestrated or else" junkies. For example, Nintendo is finally giving into you punks, and their music sounds worse than ever. Nintendo's music was best when it was electronic and interactive. Same goes for many other developers.

 

[HK-47]

It's partially because of all you "it gotta be orchestrated or else" junkies. For example, Nintendo is finally giving into you punks, and their music sounds worse than ever. Nintendo's music was best when it was electronic and interactive. Same goes for many other developers.

What are you even talking about?

 

[Haruspex]

It's partially because of all you "it gotta be orchestrated or else" junkies. For example, Nintendo is finally giving into you punks, and their music sounds worse than ever. Nintendo's music was best when it was electronic and interactive. Same goes for many other developers.

IGN are the main culprits for propagating that sort of thinking. I think in general they want everything to be bigger and more Hollywood-esque, which they define as 'production values'.

 

[Valtor]

I played the "nostalga card" when it is appropriate. When someone says there is something systemtically wrong with game music today versus the game music of old, that is nostalgia. Rose-tinted glasses. Ignorance. You pick your choice, because it is that and only that. There is no other way to describe that sort of viewpoint, considering the vast diversity in music today which even INCLUDES classic tracks of the NES-style variety.

What if you don't like the fact that there is more and more of that ambient/atmospheric music and you want to "limit" its progress by saying music today is worse than before?

Also, you can't really say there's a lot of classic tracks in the NES-style variety in today's music.... There is SOME, but it you LOVE particularly 8-bit music, you can't say it's got you covered, and then you could say "I preferred NES era music"... It's not because Megaman 9 came out that as easily invalidates the point...

It's definitely close-minded to say such a thing, but it's not necessarily nostalgia... maybe I'm nitpicking, but hey, my 2 cents.

 

[popolon]

Also, guys, 8-bit isn't just Nes, remember. Is there no love for Amiga, C64 and MSX soundtracks?
That said, I also prefer the more catchy tunes of old but I would be lying if I said that game music today is bad (or generic). I absolutely love Oblivion, Bioshock etc....

 

[-tetsuo-]

Quality music is quality no matter if its midi or orchestrated or whatever. Game music now is worse because it consist of more than 10 midi notes and you cant memorize it? Terrible article.

 

[_Alkaline_]

It's partially because of all you "it gotta be orchestrated or else" junkies. For example, Nintendo is finally giving into you punks, and their music sounds worse than ever. Nintendo's music was best when it was electronic and interactive. Same goes for many other developers.

Yeah, Galaxy's soundtrack really sucked ass.

 

[Munin]

It's partially because of all you "it gotta be orchestrated or else" junkies. For example, Nintendo is finally giving into you punks, and their music sounds worse than ever. Nintendo's music was best when it was electronic and interactive. Same goes for many other developers.

I think this is a too simple look at it - my opinion is that music written FOR an orchestra should also be performed BY an orchestra. Otherwise, you end up with something potentially good but where the impact of the music is significantly diminished (see Twilight Princess). Or at least use a decent sample library, which especially Japanese composers seem to not have a single clue about. I just can't stand badly synthesized orchestras, which is also why every second JRPG soundtrack should go and die in a corner.

If you know that you can't get a real orchestra or convincing samples anyway, then your music should be written to match your budget, period. Mitsuda is good at that, for example. This perspective might also be the reason why I cannot stand Uematsu.

 

[navii]

please say hello to flower http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkKlnTY7a0s#t=0m37s

some of the best music in video game

 

[zoukka]

What's wrong with game music?

Well the good stuff is still available and plentiful. But the bad stuff is orchestrated now and sometimes has human voices. So it sounds a lot worse than it would as beeps and boops.

So the best stuff sounds better than the "old stuff" by a great margin, but the bad stuff sounds worse than it did back then.

 

[Amir0x]

What if you don't like the fact that there is more and more of that ambient/atmospheric music and you want to "limit" its progress by saying music today is worse than before?

I am actually speechless. I mean, I actually don't know how to respond to someone who thinks saying "music is worse than before" will actually "stop" the progress of a certain type of music, as if you're wishing tinker bell alive in neverland.

Also, you can't really say there's a lot of classic tracks in the NES-style variety in today's music.... There is SOME, but it you LOVE particularly 8-bit music, you can't say it's got you covered, and then you could say "I preferred NES era music"... It's not because Megaman 9 came out that as easily invalidates the point...

Obviously, NES-style music is not in as wide circulation as it was (or even close). I was only saying that the "progress" made has not therefore stopped developers from going that route, if they so choose. Because good developers and good artists know when it is appropriate to limit themselves.

 

[zoukka]

All the "metal" versions of old VG-music prove Amir0x right.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

please say hello to flower http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkKlnTY7a0s#t=0m37s

some of the best music in video game

As someone who has never even seen Flower before, the game looks fun but the music would put me to sleep. I would have thought someone ripped it directly from Braid if I didn't know any better.

 

[Valtor]

I am actually speechless. I mean, I actually don't know how to respond to someone who thinks saying "music is worse than before" will actually "stop" the progress of a certain type of music, as if you're wishing tinker bell alive in neverland.

You want a list of articles of people wishing for things happening on the internet? The examples are so abundant I really don't know where I should point you to

How many "Give us Zelda Wii!" do you need? Or "16:9 and 480p should be standard for Wii" or "Halo 3 sucks cuz resolution is less than HD!"

A lot of those have opinion pieces written about them, from big publications no less...

I see this as nothing more than a "Give us more catchy music, game industry!"

I'm not saying it's a good idea or it's going to work, but that could be the premise behind the article...just like when you are assigned a budget you want to spend it all, just to be sure you'll not get cut next year, the guys wants more catchy music, so he rants about how there's not that many left, hoping people listen and make more catchy music. Not perfect analogy, but I think you get the point.

And yes, rants, when backed by large amounts of people can make a difference. When some guy got his autographed Xbox cleaned, he got a new one because he ranted on the internet. Ok, so it won't work for something as large and as vague as "catchy music" for all of the game industry, still, he gets his opinion be heard.

 

[Amir0x]

You want a list of articles of people wishing for things happening on the internet? The examples are so abundant I really don't know where I should point you to

How many "Give us Zelda Wii!" do you need? Or "16:9 and 480p should be standard for Wii" or "Halo 3 sucks cuz resolution is less than HD!"

A lot of those have opinion pieces written about them, from big publications no less...

I see this as nothing more than a "Give us more catchy music, game industry!"

No totally. I was just a little taken back that you thought there was a case for merely saying "music is worse than before" out loud, as if doing so would cast a magical spell on game developers.

It's ok to wish for one music over the other. Just a little odd what you thought the wishing would actually do :lol

 

[Ourobolus]

I think as long as we don't get another song in a game like the one from the desert town in Grandia 3 (link), the genre will be just fine.

 

[Dead Man]

I think as long as we don't get another song in a game like the one from the desert town in Grandia 3 (link), the genre will be just fine.

GAHHHH!!!! What the hell was that? My ears are bleeding.

 

[LoganKnight4949]

I think as long as we don't get another song in a game like the one from the desert town in Grandia 3 (link), the genre will be just fine.

WTF?!?!

I made music that sounded much better than this on my Casio keyboard when I was 8 years old.

This is horrible, out of key, out of tune, out of rhythm garbage. Whoever "composed" that should be fired.

 

[HK-47]

I think as long as we don't get another song in a game like the one from the desert town in Grandia 3 (link), the genre will be just fine.

D=>

 

[Gomu Gomu]

I think as long as we don't get another song in a game like the one from the desert town in Grandia 3 (link), the genre will be just fine.

:lol :lol :lol :lol

edit: seriously, it's so bad I can't stop listening, and loling

 

[Dante23]

I think as long as we don't get another song in a game like the one from the desert town in Grandia 3 (link), the genre will be just fine.

 

[Odrion]

the music isn't memorable anymore but I believe that's because it's neither as repetitious as it was before

 

[Wizpig]

Here's a perfect example of how the lack of limitations can make something better:
Here's Windy and Co. from Conker's Bad Fur Day, probably one of my favorite game tracks of all time. Compare this to Windy and Co. from Live and Reloaded and try and tell me that the N64 version is better.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[ZealousD]

all you gotta do is compare Ninja Gaiden NES and Ninja Gaiden Xbox

NES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP_D_YKnwi0
vs
Xbox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBU_9gTyjcg

I can play this game too! Metal Gear NES vs Metal Gear Solid 2.

NES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W6dShYD9LU
vs
PS2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUHJsU_ooWQ

 

[Souldriver]

Bu-bu-bu-but sitar in Mario 64!!!

Here's a perfect example of how the lack of limitations can make something better:
Here's Windy and Co. from Conker's Bad Fur Day, probably one of my favorite game tracks of all time. Compare this to Windy and Co. from Live and Reloaded and try and tell me that the N64 version is better.

Probably been pointed out already. But the reason why there's such a big improvement is because in the N64 music they try to replicate real instruments.

If that's the case, off course the real instruments are heaps and bounds better than the fake ones. It's the same reason why I can't really enjoy classical orchestra-sounding midi music. either you use the funny computer-esque tunes, or you use real instruments, but you don't cheap out and try replicating real instruments with a computer. That's stupid.

But for example in early games from Sonic you can't tell that "they were going for of instrument x with that sound". No, they just used the sounds available back then, and went all out on the melody and catchyness. In that regard I agree that there's something lacking in most games nowadays. Now it's atmosphere > catchyness, melody and recognizability. I'm not really complaining, cause I <3 atmospheric music like in movies with big orchestras, it's just that there seems to be an imbalance between the two nowadays.

Part of the reason why the soundtrack of Super Mario Galaxy is loved so much, is because they decided to combine the modern "big orchestra" atmosphere with amazingly catchy and recognizable tunes. That last part is what makes so many songs instant classics.


Edit: I do have to stress though that I'm not complaining. When big orchestra music is used in a game, it's because it fits in there. And there's probably also a false perception of an over representation of that kind of music, because it's mainly used in big budget and highly successful games. There's still plenty of other games with more frivolous and catchy music.

 

[etiolate]

I played the "nostalga card" when it is appropriate. When someone says there is something systemtically wrong with game music today versus the game music of old, that is nostalgia. Rose-tinted glasses. Ignorance. You pick your choice, because it is that and only that. There is no other way to describe that sort of viewpoint, considering the vast diversity in music today which even INCLUDES classic tracks of the NES-style variety.

From reading this thread, it seems you tried to play that card and then got owned by multiple replies.