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[Mandoric]

The idea that making something easier makes it more fun, rather than less. This should be an obvious non-starter, did anyone -not- consign their Game Genie to the back of the closet after a couple weeks? It's a game, its only distinguishing quality is that it's interactive and dependent on player skill. All it leads to now is the need for action games to be 20-hour, multi-million-dollar slogfests with cookie-cutter encounters and overblown narratives, to make people feel like the content they refuse to see twice was worth $60 since it's 10 times as long as a $6 B-movie DVD.

 

[T Ghost]

Novels can never be "cinematic", games can. I have yet to see a game tell a story better than by having all characters speaking, with a fixed camera angle, showing their facial expressions, with music and the whole nine. Giving the player total control during an important scene is pointless, as the only focus should be on that scene at that particular point and time.

Allowing the player to spin around in circles trying out his/her new weapon while their AI teammates are saying their last goodbyes, does not make for a very memorable story/scene.

Edit: Almost forgot to mention the topic. I'd like to play a game to where when you take damage, it isn't always because you got physically injured. I'm talking about characters like Marcus and Nathan taking thousands of bullets to the ass, taking a breather and being 100% A-OK.

How about a game where the player is met with many close calls (bullets that visually don't hit but are close) resulting in his mental state to decline (power bar equivalent), allowing for that one perfect shot to finally hit and killing him.

Or the sword fighting character that instead of getting sliced up and drinks a potion to regain health, blocks differently, to tell the player that that was a hit and the power goes down appropriately. He then drinks something to calm his nerves (regain his health) so he will be mentally sharp for the next fight.

It's hard, if not impossible, to tell a story when you don't know what the main character will do at all times.

As long as a solution for this problem is not created there will still be a legitimate need for non interactive cutscenes in games that have a minimum amount of narrative in it.

Or we can go back to the pac-man era, no narrative whatsoever.

 

[ACE 1991]

Thinking that Multiplayer is needed when it's not.

This is a good one. Also, the feeling that for an action game to be well-rounded it needs an obligatory stealth mission.

 

[jman2050]

Or we can go back to the pac-man era, no narrative whatsoever.

That would be a welcome change honestly.

 

[FormerShirts]

Game Design.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Also, the feeling that for an action game to be well-rounded it needs an obligatory stealth mission.

Ugh, this. I have never enjoyed a stealth level in a game. I stopped playing Beyond Good & Evil because of a stealth section. Hell, I nearly didn't start Wind Waker because it opens with stealth. Stealth isn't fun. Stop putting it in games please.

I also hate being graded on how well I beat a level. Oh, my biggest combo wasn't as big as the developer wanted, and it took me two minutes too long to beat, and I actually got hit? Well, let's tell you you suck at the game, and not give you any rewards to make the game more manageable for you. No, we'll reserve the powerups for the people who are already excellent at this game. If you can't balance your game so the challenge is whether or not you can get past a section, but rather how perfect you can do it you need to go back to design school or something. Seriously, make the challenge in completing the level and not in following stringent, arbitrary guidelines to get a grade. Hate that. Yes I'm looking at you Kamiya. You make fantastic games that become frustrating because of your stupid obsession with grading me.

 

[tahrikmili]

I'm sick and sick of regenerating health in games that have no explanation for it, mostly modern/historic military shooters.

Get the Halo shields out of my Rainbow Six and Ghost Recons. I remember when playing these games took some brains and planning so you didn't actually get shot.

 

[oracrest]

Game Design.

very post-modern.

 

[Dark Octave]

That would be a welcome change honestly.

We already have that. It's called online multiplayer and Horde modes that supplement our games that already have full fledged stories.

 

[jman2050]

We already have that. It's called online multiplayer and Horde modes that supplement our games that already have full fledged stories.

Is this really a serious response?

 

[Akainu]

I don't like how characters in fighting games rarely change their appearance. Like say Sakura still wearing a school uniform in her 20's. I like how in King of Fighters, Athena had a different outfit each game and Kyo at least changed clothes once in a while.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Ugh, this. I have never enjoyed a stealth level in a game. I stopped playing Beyond Good & Evil because of a stealth section. Hell, I nearly didn't start Wind Waker because it opens with stealth. Stealth isn't fun. Stop putting it in games please.

I think this is an issue with secondary gameplay lacking. It's nice to mix up gameplay but it has to be good otherwise it isn't helping the game much.

 

[Dark Octave]

Is this really a serious response?

Was yours?

 

[blackadde]

competitive games that rely on experience-based unlocks that give a mechanical advantage, because it tends to reward raw play time over skill. your reward for playing the game should be becoming better at the game, not some arbitrary carrot on a stick. cosmetic unlocks are fine.

 

[Night_Trekker]

"Nobody will play a game unless there are things to kill."

"I've got it. We'll give the main character amnesia so the player will learn his dark backstory while the protagonist does the same. Brilliant..."

"Any game concept plus an open world, 'sandbox' design is that much better!"

"Just put in an exploding barrel."

"My next game will be all about making people cry. This is a legitimate design choice and not a sad commentary on the low standards for writing quality in games." (Thankfully this one never came to pass.)

I'd basically be on the opposite side of the fence.

Games are interactive entertainment. Non-interactive cutscenes are anathema to the ONLY advantage games have as a story-telling medium.

This ongoing obsession the industry has with trying to appear legitimate, constantly comparing itself to movies, mired in inadequacy and insecurity.

Novels don't sell themselves on being "cinematic" and neither should games. They are different mediums with different strengths. They should play to their strengths. Games should instead develop their own syntax for narrative delivery instead of trying to emulate movies.

This is a stupid stance to take. Cinema doesn't "own" the experience of passively watching something happen. When it comes to storytelling, presenting the viewer with a specific viewpoint on a situation they can't affect is simple a tool the storyteller has at his/her disposal.

There are certain effects you can only achieve by taking control away from the player, so it would be a pretty bad idea to abstain from non-interactive cutscenes on... I guess you could call that "principle"? I'm all for exploring the way games can tell stories in ways movies can't, but restricting ourselves from using certain storytelling techniques for no real reason is dumb.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

For all those who mentioned unskippable cutscenes, what is up with that!? Especially nowadays, it seems developers don't want us to skip cutscenes. Granted, in Dante's Inferno it's not so bad since they're usually short and you're not forced to re-watch them over and over when you die, but I'm looking at you Tales of Vesperia! Awesome fucking game but I remember having to endure the long cutscenes and continously pressing A just to skip the dialogue itself. But wow, Bayonetta actually allowed you to skip the cutscenes! +1 for Bayonetta on that part!

 

[jman2050]

Was yours?

I'm just trying to understand the thought process that led to a counter-argument that was barely relevant to what you were trying to counter.

If you wish for me to expound, then I'll say that having a story as a framing device for the game isn't a bad thing, and if one wants to make an expansive narrative as their framing device (see: every RPG ever made), I'm sure not going to stop them. I just think that if one is going to design a game they should do so in a much more abstract fashion, letting the game dictate the narrative and not the other way around.

 

[Night_Trekker]

I'll cut to the chase: the one thing that bothers me more than anything else are boxes/fences/barrels impeding your progress. I remember playing Dead to Rights, and in one level the only thing stopping you from getting to your destination were some stacked boxes that were only waist high. Instead of just jumping over them, you have to take your gun and blast your way through about a hundred enemies to find the staircase that goes up to the other side. I've got no problem blasting enemies, but let's not be so insulting as to assume I won't see these things, shall we?

I was playing Kuon last night (a surprisingly good survival/horror game), exploring a haunted Japanese mansion, and my way was impeded by... an overturned, foot-high silk screen that someone or something had left in the middle of a hallway :lol

I'm just trying to understand the thought process that led to a counter-argument that was barely relevant to what you were trying to counter.

If you wish for me to expound, then I'll say that having a story as a framing device for the game isn't a bad thing, and if one wants to make an expansive narrative as their framing device (see: every RPG ever made), I'm sure not going to stop them. I just think that if one is going to design a game they should do so in a much more abstract fashion, letting the game dictate the narrative and not the other way around.

What, you're actually tired of traveling the world to collect/activate/destroy the [number goes here] MacGuffins and thusly save humanity?

 

[zoukka]

Stretching the games. There's no magical 10 hour limit you need to achieve goddamnit.

 

[Slavik81]

Games that award no benefit to player skill, but instead increase character skill as you invest time. Player choice should play a meaningful role in outcomes, not simply time investment.

 

[Ashes]

'shitty story will do. '
'And shitty dialogue will do. '

I mean I'm not looking for the great American novel, but are you so creatively bankrupt that you cannot string a half decent story together?

 

[Dark Octave]

I'm just trying to understand the thought process that led to a counter-argument that was barely relevant to what you were trying to counter.

If you wish for me to expound, then I'll say that having a story as a framing device for the game isn't a bad thing, and if one wants to make an expansive narrative as their framing device (see: every RPG ever made), I'm sure not going to stop them. I just think that if one is going to design a game they should do so in a much more abstract fashion, letting the game dictate the narrative and not the other way around.

You basically sounded like you were saying you would rather have a game that didn't have a plot like how Pac-Man really has no plot. Just all game. I simply stated that there are games like that all over. Games that have gameplay only modes on the side that come with story modes too. Best of both worlds. That's all I was saying.

All that abstract artsy fartsy stuff is cool sometimes, but I'm the kind of guy who likes my characters to explain to me exactly what's going on in plain English. I tried to follow the story in Flower and I didn't get it.

 

[Nessus]

Novels can never be "cinematic", games can.

I would argue that games can't either.

A cinematic is a mini movie, not a game. It ceases to be a game when it takes control away from the player, the same as if the game were interrupted by several pages of text it'd stop being a game and become a novel for the duration of that scene.

You mention how jarring it is if the player decides to jump around in circles like an idiot during some emotional scene, certainly that's true. And in my ideal game the NPCs would react realistically when the player did stuff like that, and conversely, I'd give the player relevant actions to perform while those scenes were happening.

It's also jarring, however, to go from one scene where the characters are giving fully motion captured, fluid, choreographed performances, and then suddenly the next moment, when control is finally relinquished to the player once more, the characters are once again inflexibly tethered to the game world, generally incapable of motions and movements they, we are expected to accept, they were just performing moments prior.

You also assume that game stories are best served by the same approach we are accustomed to in other media: expository dialogue.

My point is games are a completely different medium, and just as early movies started out simply being stage plays recorded on film before they developed their own set of relevant tools and approaches, I think games are aping movies, hopefully until they come into their own.

I think learning about the story by changes in the game world, by catching glimpses of television broadcasts, by overhearing enemy troops talking to one another, by seeing the posters and graffiti of that lived-in world that you are supposed to be experiencing and engrossed in is a far more suitable approach.

I'd rather be the player character standing there, looking up and *seeing* the bridge begin to fall down on top of me, and subsequently having to run for my life, than watching some lame Hollywood action scene cinema of the same event unfolding.

Also, I understand people have different tastes, which is why I prefaced all of this by saying it was just my opinion (which should be self-evident).

 

[Night_Trekker]

'shitty story will do. '
'And shitty dialogue will do. '

I mean I'm not looking for the great American novel, but are you so creatively bankrupt that you cannot string a half decent story together?

Many developers are, yes.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

'shitty story will do. '
'And shitty dialogue will do. '

I mean I'm not looking for the great American novel, but are you so creatively bankrupt that you cannot string a half decent story together?

being creative in the professional sense is much, much harder than it seems, to be fair.

 

[Neuromancer]

Hand holding. Linear levels. Constant chatter, especially from someone in a remote location who always manages to know more about what's going on around you than you do.

 

[jman2050]

You basically sounded like you were saying you would rather have a game that didn't have a plot like how Pac-Man really has no plot. Just all game. I simply stated that there are games like that all over. Games that have gameplay only modes on the side that come with story modes too. Best of both worlds. That's all I was saying.

Fair enough

All that abstract artsy fartsy stuff is cool sometimes, but I'm the kind of guy who likes my characters to explain to me exactly what's going on in plain English. I tried to follow the story in Flower and I didn't get it.

I don't think I was implying "artsy" with my comments. The idea behind abstraction in any medium is to distill any given entity to only its relevant components and nothing else. Borrowing the Pac-Man reference, the game can be described in an abstract way as the player navigating a maze-like field/structure with the goal being to collect all of a particular object on the screen, with the secondary goal of avoiding making contact with enemies attempting to chase you. The fact that the player is named Pac-Man, that he's a yellow disk that collects dots, and that the enemies chasing you are ghosts are all irrelevant in this context and only exist as such to provide consistent visual cues of their purpose to the player. I said it in this topic earlier, if the developer's design cannot stand up to abstraction then he is doing it wrong.

 

[elektrixx]

Very poor restart/retry/respawn mechanics that waste a lot of your time for no reason. Pre-patch Skate 2's process of restarting a challenge took too long by asking "Are you sure?" every time, and afterwards some challenges had a countdown timer from 3, wasting more of your time. Trials HD did it right by not pissing about.

Not being allowed to backtrack after completing a game is pretty crappy. Mass Effect, maybe Bioshock 2, etc. If it really needs to be this way for story's sake, take a page from The Legend Of Zelda series and not save after beating the game, but instead save just before so it allows players to go back.

We can tell when our teammates aren't really shooting people. Give it up, developers.

I'm not sure if this really counts as a philosophy, but when an opponent disconnects or ragequits that means YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO WIN BY DEFAULT. It shouldn't just "end" with no result! This issue continues on and shouldn't pass certification if it exists in new games today.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

JELLO ON MA SCREENNNSSS!!!!!!

Just give me back the health bar cause regenerating health bars ain't reserved for Halo...

 

[AniHawk]

"We're not very talented so let's make our platformer into a movie series."

 

[OnPoint]

Touch-screen or motion controls just because. If the game doesn't play better with them, by all means, please keep them out. Just because the system can do it doesn't mean every game should.

 

[Tellaerin]

- The attempts at removing HUDs from games. Removing the HUD doesn't 'increase my immersion'. I'm not suddenly going to forget that I'm playing a game and be magically transported to the world inside my TV if you remove it. I'm just going to be aggravated that vital information isn't available at a glance, and/or is being presented in some unnecessarily vague, contrived, annoying way.

- The movement to eliminate cinematic cutscenes. Cutscenes act as frame stories for the interactive bits in a lot of games, providing context for the action and serving as a payoff for the player. Play well and you move the story forward, and get to see what happens next. There's nothing wrong with that.

- The recent emphasis on shoehorning multiplayer into everything. It's just unnecessary.

- Achievements/trophies as a substitute for unlockable content. I'll gladly jump through hoops in a game if I know I'll get something I'm interested in for my efforts. Something worthwhile, like unlocking a new costume or character or what have you. Putting in the effort for a virtual gold star and a handful of e-peen points isn't worth my time. It's like those old games that would reward you for beating them with 'CONGRATULATIONS! YOU ARE WINNER!' instead of a proper ending. No thanks.

- The movement away from boss battles in recent years. I don't want to spend an entire game shooting nothing but a handful of soldier type enemies armed with different guns. I don't give a shit if you think that's 'more realistic' than a game with real boss battles, it's boring. Bosses break up the monotony in a game, and when they're done right, provide some of the most exciting, dramatic moments.

- The emphasis on open-world sandbox games over linear ones. You see, I like linear games. I like the way the player is faced with increasingly tough challenges, requiring them to master basic techniques first, then build on those fundamentals as the difficulty ramps up. I find tackling those kinds of games immensely satisfying - completing each level feels like an accomplishment. Most sandbox games fail to hold my interest due to the loose structure. I don't feel the drive to beat them.

I'm pretty sure there are others I'm not thinking of right now, but those were the first ones to come to mind.

 

[Roto13]

Random battles in RPGs. They are never a good thing. Never. I will not be replaying Final Fantasy IV: The After Years because of the random battles.

 

[Unknown One]

JELLO ON MA SCREENNNSSS!!!!!!

Just give me back the health bar cause regenerating health bars ain't reserved for Halo...

I also want this. I'll be ok if regenerating health stays for single player but leave that out of multiplayer please.

 

[sn00zer]

Why so negative?
I love:
-cinematic games (KZ2, Uncharted 2)
-physical HUDs (FEAR2)
-minimalistic HUDs (Bioshock)
-New IPs getting sequels (Assassins Creed, Bioshock, NMH)
-new visual designs (Flower, Wipeout, Katamari)
-arty games
-super awesome graphics

 

[Huggy]

I believe only Volition uses it, but basically they have a auto aim system where the camera slows down when it's on a target.
Imagine the analogue stick fighting when you want to skip a particular target.

 

[cornontheCoD]

I have yet to see a game tell a story better than by having all characters speaking, with a fixed camera angle, showing their facial expressions, with music and the whole nine.

Never played Braid, huh? Poor guy.

 

[Matty McDee]

- achievements that require you to collect tons of hidden items

That aren't marked on any form of radar or map.

 

[JaseC]

something something tank controls since 1996 something something.

 

[Grayman]

something something tank controls since 1996 something something.

God Hand had tank controls and it is the best controlling modern action game. Tank controls with no ability to sidestep or move while aiming may be awkward in resident evil but they can be used very well in some games.

 

[Dark Stalkers]

Grinding to unlock better guns in online shooters.

 

[keyboardcat]

forever-spawning enemies that continue to pop up until you move close enough to trigger the next scene = Sniper rifles made useless.

 

[Haunted]

nvm.

 

[LuigiLogik]

When "Balancing" means taking the fun out of a weapon... How bout we boost up every other weapon a bit instead?

Cheap = Challenge, No it equals frustration Ninja Gaiden II

Loot Heavy Games with shitty inventory management and slow menu loads (Mass Effect & Too Human)

Rinse and Repeat gameplay

 

[BlackTyrano]

-Cover systems in shooters. I like being able to move freely instead of being anchored to a wall for no reason other than to eliminate pretty much any movement element of the gameplay and downgrade it into a simple "point cursor to head and press the trigger when enemies stop shooting" experience. Take this shit out of the next GTA, please.

-Lowering gameplay standards while increasing graphics standards. No matter how pretty you make your game, it's not going to impress me anymore. I've been over CG graphics since I saw FF:TSW like 10 years ago. Just make me a fantastic game =)

 

[JaseC]

God Hand had tank controls and it is the best controlling modern action game. Tank controls with no ability to sidestep or move while aiming may be awkward in resident evil but they can be used very well in some games.

Oh, I don't doubt it, but as you obviously noticed I was specifically referring to Capcom's refusal to update the general control scheme in the Resident Evil series. 13 years and we still can't walk and aim/shoot? Please. :lol It hardly breaks the game (I bought and enjoyed RE5, after all), but it's inexcusable all the same.

Edit: Since I've posted again, I may as well provide a genuine response to the topic: cutting content from the initial release of a game purely for the purpose of DLC.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

To make games more difficult on higher difficulties, game developers increase enemy damage and auto aim to a rediculous degree. It says something about the dymanics of your game if all you can do to make it more challenging is make the game more cheap.

 

[werewolf2000ad]

Enforced co-op with an AI in single-player. Has this ever worked? EVER?

 

[JaseC]

Enforced co-op with an AI in single-player. Has this ever worked? EVER?

The Uncharted games have great partner AI, although you don't have one for the entirety of the game.

 

[someguyinahat]

I haven't seen it in a while, but...two words: Loot Tetris.