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Game dev exposes Kotaku: they asked me for $1500 if i want to quote their review of my game!!

iconmaster

Banned
I guess they can control use of their logo .. and charge for it.

As for pull quotes - I'd be suprised ..

It's thorny. Fair use protects you... up to a point. But there are no hard-and-fast rules around it. Quoting for a commercial purpose is riskier than quoting for personal use. Quoting a larger chunk is riskier than quoting less... unless the portion quoted is the most "valuable" part of the work.

Kotaku are free to charge what they like, and then it's up to the other party to weigh those costs versus the risks of claiming fair use. Something Richard Hoeg said once that stuck in my mind: If you're claiming fair use as a defense, you're already in court with an accusation of infringement hanging over you. It's not a great position to be in.
 
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CamHostage

Member
Errr doesn't this happen all the fucking time?

So, I'm not sure what you're asking in saying "doesn't this happen...", but the reality is it actually does, though not in gaming media (or just general enthusiast press) as much as I know of.

When I was a cub journalist for gaming sites in the late 90s/early-2000s, I would get calls from PR saying, "We appreciate the review, can we talk to your Sales dept for usage of a quote?" My boss was from magazines and explained that it was part of the publishing business to monetize quotations; even though the content is available publicly, they want to profit off of it, and your company owns those words (they also have intellectual property rights to protect, and letting anybody do whatever with their content diminished their business value,) so there is an expectation of exchange for usage. "Two Thumbs Up" is a registered trademark for a number of reasons.

That said, all of the companies I worked for granted use of quotes without ever charging for them even way back then, and the "inherent value" of a journalist's work has gone real sideways since then (especially now with social media and with embedded content; if you retweet a tweet, are you using that tweet for yourself or are you just helping to distribute the original material?) So I don't know how much charging for quotes exists today?

Quick side-note: it could well be that Kotaku quotes rates that are generic to parent company Gizmodo Media Group / Univision, which has a lot of old-media business and protocol behind it. So even if a journalist doesn't care or even would like for their quotes to be used (and to be clear, AFAIK the journalist does not see any of that money nor do they solicit it, it all goes upstream to the main coffers and I have never heard of a "bonus" or kickback for being the one creating the quoted material,) their boss's boss's boss's boss sets the company terms.

Usually it's the other way around. The publisher would ask permission to use a quote. And they don't pay for it.

If this is the same Manabyte from ages and ages on the net, you know well enough as somebody experienced in journalism how it works versus the rumors and trolling and all that. (Btw, I'm not sure if you're taking Spukc's comment as "aren't all journalists taking payouts", which is not how I took it, but I guess I should have.) So I'll just back you in saying that yeah, even the hungry journalists I knew didn't go out and actively solicit their quotes to be used in advertising. (And you and I were active back far enough ago that we remember "quote-on-the-box" review pulls, which I think are a thing of the past even for movies?) They cared about the site/mag that they wrote for and the profile/visibility they had in the industry itself; that was your job, and everything else was the responsibility of some other department in the company that wasn't your concern. You actually had to be careful with who you let use quotes, because that's your name they're out there using to sell their product and their use of the quote is missing all of the context of your long review text (or now video.) Sales departments for a site/mag then and apparently now are still interested in the value of their content as it is repurposed, so probably somebody is very active in the "Peter Travers business" (assuming RS charges for quotes), but, like, were you were ever asked to go ask PR to get your words out there? I wasn't, and that was never anything asked of anybody I've talked with.

Quotations were actually a pain in the ass for me, because I'd get requests for abbreviated quotes to make it sound as nice as possible, or quotes from middling reviews that singled out one good thing (this was back when they only had so many reviews to choose from and were looking for anything kind to spin into a positive possible.) And then sometimes an ad or product would come out, and your quote with your name on it used totally without permission, and you'd have to figure out if it's worth going through Legal to do anything about that (there was never a case where I cared to do so, but it did suck when a preview quote was pulled, and either your final review doesn't match that enthusiasm or, even worse, your boss assigns a review to somebody else because they need somebody without their name on the box to handle the site's score.)

...That was all back when journalism mattered, of course, to the audiences and to the businesses that ran the market; not everything has changed since then, though.
 
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ManaByte

Gold Member
So, I'm not sure what you're asking in saying "doesn't this happen...", but the reality is it actually does, though not in gaming media (or just general enthusiast press) as much as I know of.

When I was a cub journalist for gaming sites in the late 90s/early-2000s, I would get calls from PR saying, "We appreciate the review, can we talk to your Sales dept for usage of a quote?" My boss was from magazines and explained that it's part of the business to monetize quotations; even though the content is available publicly, they want to profit off of it, and your company owns those words (they also have intellectual property rights to protect, and letting anybody do whatever with their content diminished their business value,) so there is an expectation of exchange for usage.

That said, all of the companies I worked for granted use of quotes without ever charging for them even way back then, and the "inherent value" of a journalist's work has gone real sideways since then (especially now with social media and with embedded content; if you retweet a tweet, are you using that tweet for yourself or are you just helping to distribute the original material?) So I don't know if charging for quotes even exists much today?

Quick side-note: it could well be that Kotaku quotes rates that are generic to parent company Gizmodo Media Group / Univision, which has a lot of old-media business and protocol behind it. So even if a journalist doesn't care or even would like for their quotes to be used (and to be clear, AFAIK the journalist does not see any of that money nor do they solicit it, it all goes upstream to the main coffers and I have never heard of a "bonus" or kickback for being the one creating the quoted material,) their boss's boss's boss's boss sets the company terms.



If this is the same Manabyte from ages and ages on the net, you know well enough as somebody experienced in journalism how it works versus the rumors and trolling and all that. (Btw, I'm not sure if you're taking Spukc's comment as "aren't all journalists taking payouts", which is not how I took it, but I guess I should have.) So I'll just back you in saying that yeah, even the hungry journalists I knew didn't go out and actively solicit their quotes to be used in advertising. (And you and I were active back far enough ago that we remember "quote-on-the-box" review pulls, which I think are a thing of the past even for movies?) They cared about the site/mag that they wrote for and the profile/visibility they had in the industry itself; that was your job, and everything else was the responsibility of some other department in the company that wasn't your concern. You actually had to be careful with who you let use quotes, because that's your name they're out there using to sell their product and their use of the quote is missing all of the context of your long review text (or now video.) Sales departments for a site/mag then and apparently now are still interested in the value of their content as it is repurposed, so probably somebody is very active in the "Peter Travers business" (assuming RS charges for quotes), but, like, were you were ever asked to go ask PR to get your words out there? I wasn't, and that was never anything asked of anybody I've talked with.

Quotations were actually a pain in the ass for me, because I'd get requests for abbreviated quotes to make it sound as nice as possible, or quotes from middling reviews that singled out one good thing (this was back when they only had so many reviews to choose from and were looking for anything kind to spin into a positive possible.) And then sometimes an ad or product would come out, and your quote with your name on it used totally without permission, and you'd have to figure out if it's worth going through Legal to do anything about that (there was never a case where I cared to do so, but it did suck when a preview quote was pulled, and either your final review doesn't match that enthusiasm or, even worse, your boss assigns a review to somebody else because they need somebody without their name on the box to handle the site's score.)

...That was all back when journalism mattered, of course, to the audiences and to the businesses that ran the market; not everything has changed since then, though.

I just meant usually it's the publisher asking to use a quote. I think this is the first time I've ever heard of any publication going out and asking people if they wanted to use the quote.
 

CamHostage

Member
I guess they can control use of their logo .. and charge for it.
...
Is this shit normal ?

I just meant usually it's the publisher asking to use a quote. I think this is the first time I've ever heard of any publication going out and asking people if they wanted to use the quote.

The original tweets are deleted, so I'm having difficulty tracking where everybody else is coming from in comments here, but I'm seconding ManaByte: it seems completely unusual to me too (though not impossible, I guess?) that a company is going out saying, "We liked your game! Do you want to pay $1500 to tell people what we said about it?"

So, in my experience, not normal.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
The original tweets are deleted, so I'm having difficulty tracking where everybody else is coming from in comments here, but I'm seconding ManaByte: it seems completely unusual to me too (though not impossible, I guess?) that a company is going out saying, "We liked your game! Do you want to pay $1500 to tell people what we said about it?"

So, in my experience, not normal.

The thing is Kotaku trashed the game, and then asked him to pay for the quote. Which is bizarre.
 

Miyazaki’s Slave

Gold Member
Unclear on if they ok'ed the review of the game to being with.

Did they allow the outlet to review the game and now feel shocked they are being charged for use of the work? Or did the outlet just review the product without their knowledge?

I would assume they could request the review removed from the outlets portfolio if they didn't first OK the review of the title, or am I just real dumb?
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
1) Media company charges a fee to use their logo and quotes in your advertising

2) Media company has sales people who sell this "service", probably don't pay much attention even to the content of the reviews, just contact devs/pubs to try to sell

That's probably all this is.
 

Abriael_GN

RSI Employee of the Year
Is this shit normal ?

I never worked on a website that does this. It is normal for developers and PR to ask for permission to use quotes, names, and scores in accolades trailers and such, but I can't say I heard of sites CHARGING for it before in 20 years doing this. To me, this is so crazy that I can't help wondering if it isn't some third party trying to scam devs. It's almost too crazy even for Kotaku.

I've been asked many times myself, and my response (and that of all my colleagues to my knowledge) has always been: "of course, thank you" because honestly, every fan of games (and even if I work as a writer I'm still most definitely a fan) likes to see his quote in a trailer of a game he loved.

But alas, I never worked on shit sites, so I don't really know. That being said since this seems so bizarre and outside of my experience, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. I'm certainly not suspecting the developer, but he may have been deceived.
 
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iconmaster

Banned
Media company has sales people who sell this "service", probably don't pay much attention even to the content of the reviews, just contact devs/pubs to try to sell

Yeah, this probably wasn’t coming from the writers or editors.

Here’s Hoeg’s take (I’m fair-using your tweet, Hoeg, don’t sue me):

 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I mean, when your whole network is so shitty that you were sold for a major loss, you gotta peddle like online panhandlers.
 
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Woo-Fu

Banned
We need more grassroots gaming websites, the big ones have mostly gone greedy as fuck.
You mean they actually want to make money instead of using all their spare time and disposable income providing you with free gaming articles. Those bastards.
 

Gargus

Banned
Kotaku is a shit hole compared to what it used to be.

Used to be a fun website on game culture, niche nerdy shit, and it always had something interesting and not so normal to read.

Now kotaku is infested with advertisements disguised as articles they wrote, littered with closed minded and narrow visioned stories written by immature kids trying to make entire mountain ranges out of ant hills, half the stuff they update everyday is just stories linked to their sister sites, tons of kinja deal links which is just their advertising property, and they annoy the hell out of me with the constant forcing or gay this or racist that bullshit.

I used to check the site once or twice a day. Now it's like once a week I skim it, maybe.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
EGANGPNUcAA6EnV
Hahahaha.

But you missed posting the part at the bottom of that sheet. It says:

***Media package buyers will receive a 10% discount if they buy Jason Schreier's video game book
 
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Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
As fun as it might be having a kotaku hate thread, most bigwigs in the industry used to charge you to quote their reviews and awards in promotional material. I say used to because I do not know wether it still happens. So they aren't different from everybody else when it comes to this.
 
Oh well, since when do you need permission to quote a review? I though it was the opposite, reviewers gain relevance when they are quoted (it gives visibility to the publication).

I guess that is consumer report does it, why not Kotaku? They do the same thing after all :messenger_loudly_crying: .

Anyways, thanks for the info, I will go to bed a bit less stupid tonight.
I still use Metacritic as a litmus test for videogames.

Fight me, GAF.
Grrrrr, somewhat - but if the difference between regular Joes and the access media scores are too high I have to fall down on actual reviews and try to weight the validity of the arguments on one side or the other (no I don't buy every game just to check them out).
 
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I find the stuff about social media more concerning with artificially trying to create hype for a videogame.

edit: Explains a lot really if those tweets are true.

In the flooded marketplace of indie titles, who decides which games get coverage and which ones don't? What's the selection process being used for giving a game coverage?
 
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Arkage

Banned
When I was publishing my first game, I contacted various individuals at you tube to do a review of my game - 95% of them sent me back a template email with pricing, like - $500 Including your game in top 3 of out 10 best android games of the month. $1500 whole episode of our android games series devoted to your game, etc.

OP doesn't surprise me at all.

And we're done here.

This thread is :messenger_weary:
 

FMXVII

Member
Kotaku is only good for an uncomfortable, cheap, mean-spirited laugh, that causes immediate regret due to its source material.
 
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Roni

Gold Member
You mean they actually want to make money instead of using all their spare time and disposable income providing you with free gaming articles. Those bastards.

Perhaps we're better off trusting people who aren't making money behind close doors convincing you the latest EA game is/isn't shit?
 
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Woo-Fu

Banned
Perhaps we're better off trusting people who aren't making money behind close doors convincing you the latest EA game is/isn't shit?
Moving the goalposts a bit there. Heck, you're on an entirely different field for a different sport.

Let me refresh your memory: "...greedy as fuck." Neither of us said anything about trusting them or their reviews.
 
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Petrae

Member
Kotaku is an unethical piece of shit? No fucking way. “Games journalism” is a joke, and Kotaku is the court jester.
 

emperor84

Neo Member
70% of people rely on the opinions of others. these influencer websites like kotaku pretty much have the success of the developers in their hands. their mentality is that... hey man you want to succeed you better pay us. we're your boss, you succeed when we say so! these reviews are pointless if the reviews are on behalf of the developers and not the consumer.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Imagine crying about not getting freebies to review, and then having the gall to charge said companies that handed you the freebies for your mental diarrhea.

🤡 :messenger_ok:
 

Xaero Gravity

NEXT LEVEL lame™
When I was publishing my first game, I contacted various individuals at you tube to do a review of my game - 95% of them sent me back a template email with pricing, like - $500 Including your game in top 3 of out 10 best android games of the month. $1500 whole episode of our android games series devoted to your game, etc.

OP doesn't surprise me at all.
Blink twice if one of them was Touch Arcade.
 

Roni

Gold Member
Moving the goalposts a bit there. Heck, you're on an entirely different field for a different sport.

Let me refresh your memory: "...greedy as fuck." Neither of us said anything about trusting them or their reviews.
It's not a difficult train of thought to follow: they're a big name in the media. They pull a lot of casual traffic.

Casuals define the market. You're subjected to buy what the market supply.

They're playing dirty with their power to shape the market by engaging in shady extortion-like deals.... Trust is brittle like glass.

Again, not that difficult to understand where I'm coming from.
 
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Can't they just put the full URL link to Kotaku on the advertising material? I know it would look ugly as, but it would piss them off, and surely be free. Cut your nose to spite your face, but Kotaku innit.
 
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