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[Relaxed Muscle]

It's called reality. As much as I like my 360/ps3, I don't have an illusion on what's selling at the market nowadays. As much of big seller that's called GTA4 was this year, Nintendo sold as many copies wordwide of Mario Kart Wii. I'm sure it costed Nintendo a fraction of money to develop Mario Kart Wii compared to GTA4 for almost the same revenue. Mario Galaxy is the same way and so is Smash Bros, which sold better than MGS4. As much as a laugh stock that's called Carnival games, I'm sure the developers are laughing all the way to the bank, regardless of what you think of the game. The money talks and publishers listen.

BTW I don't even own a Wii myself.

So companies should make games with reused assets and engines, drop any production value possible so they can make even more money being cheapasses...

Yes, that is what we need as a consumers....

 

[KTallguy]

I think the point is that many many companies are relying on graphics to sell their games. And that's bad.

That's a point I can definitely get behind.

 

[Wallach]

So companies should make games with reused assets and engines, drop any production value possible so they can make even more money being cheapasses...

Yes, that is what we need as a consumers....

Reused assets and engines? What do you think UE3 is? How many developers snatch up UE3 because they either can't afford or can't be arsed to create their own?

 

[rollingstart]

The end is nigh is people actually think like this. The idea that sales justify the quality of something is ridiculous. And has this guy even played GTA4, or at the very least understand that improved technology doesn't just mean a new coat of paint? This guy would probably be agains the wheel since the majority thought carrying shit was the best solution at the time.

 

[Deku]

I can hardly contemplate what this vast majority of games being spoken of is. Is this like Nixon's 'silent majority' an amorphous ideological construct?

The sensible position seems to be to be to say that this generation has not lived up to its promise. And certainly with the 360, having a year's head start gave it some advantages in terms of acquiring more advanced software but even this could not overcome the massive problems that face it now.

The vast majority of good games have not been on the consoles, unless you want first person shooters or sequels to last-gen games with last gen gameplay.

It has been like the SFC launch window all over again, in extreme slow motion. Every single game then were 8-bit upgrades, and that's how the 3 years of xbox 360 has been.

I'm happy some people enjoy it, but the pretensions of saying its the best gaming box out there, for example, betrays just how badly off this generation is compared to previous ones when a box with billions in subsidies and a year;s head start can be 'the best box for games' and be missing entire genres. Same thing for the Wii though that box actually made money and expanded the market.

I'll enjoy my games elsewhere thank you.

 

[Ulairi]

fucking casuals are destroying real gaming. if the trend doesn't change I'll have to quit gaming altogether.

If MGS3 isn't an immersing experience anymore, then in 5 years when the new consoles are launched, neither will MGS4. That is your flawed reasoning.

 

[Draft]

Clearly HD development is broken. Look how many companies are losing money. Look at these games that cost $30-$50 million to make and need to sell 3+ million units to turn a profit. That shit is insane and unsustainable.

I don't particularly like the Wii or the type of games that end up on the Wii, but at least they make fiscal sense.

Sony and MS should worry less about beating the Wii and more about figuring a way to turn their consoles into money makers for 3rd parties.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Reused assets and engines? What do you think UE3 is? How many developers snatch up UE3 because they either can't afford or can't be arsed to create their own?

I was talking in particular about Wii and the majority of third parties using the same engines from the PS2 era....

And, at least UE3 is next-gen....

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

in mgs4 the player is instantly immersed because his brain doesn't have to "assimilate".

just an example.

Uh, yes it does. The human brain always needs to assimilate. It's how we deal with the world around us.

The human brain is a pattern recognition device. The only reason our or :lol smileys look like faces to us is because we're hardwired to recognise faces. In fact, the simpler the face, the easier it is to recognise.

There is a great deal of research into why this happens, but have you noticed that beautiful faces always tend to be informationally simple? No blemishes, symmetrical, with familiar features and conforming to very common mathematical ratios. In fact, the harder your brain needs to work to recognise a face as a face, the uglier it tends to look (due to wrinkles, blotches, assymetry, stretched or squashed features etc.).

This idea extends into many things in our world - which is why symmetry and/or simplicity are nearly always features in the things we find beautiful.

Curiously though, the more realistic we make humans in our art, the uglier and creepier it becomes as you get closer and closer to reality. This is known as the uncanny valley. Then it snaps back to acceptable again.

 

[btkadams]

im sure we'd say, "wow they just want hits for their stupid site", but this is an actual magazine... i guess you actually can be just dumb and make your own dumb articles for the heck of it.

 

[Kapsama]

the vast majority of the supposedly best games of this generation are pretty disappointing compare to previous generations.

Which ones?

Clearly HD development is broken. Look how many companies are losing money. Look at these games that cost $30-$50 million to make and need to sell 3+ million units to turn a profit. That shit is insane and unsustainable.

I only know of Halo 3 and Killzone 2 with those $30+ budgets. What other games have those budgets?

 

[Xeke]

I'd gladly watch movies at youtube quality for the rest of my life if they were free.:lol

 

[felipeko]

I only know of Halo 3 and Killzone 2 with those $30+ budgets. What other games have those budgets?

Assassin's Creed, GTAIV, Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy XIII, and many many others...

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Which ones?



I only know of Halo 3 and Killzone 2 with those $30+ budgets. What other games have those budgets?

MGS4?

If companies are losing money, maybe is their fucking fault, a year ago, everyone was happy about how much games X360 was selling, and now it's broken?...

 

[Draft]

I only know of Halo 3 and Killzone 2 with those $30+ budgets. What other games have those budgets?

Every game with decent visuals.

 

[thetrin]

Why couldn't we stay with NES. It had everything. Ergonomical controllers, classy design, cartridges, fun games, graphics, sound.

Wait, the NES controller was ergonomical? Do you have claws for hands or something?

 

[alistairw]

who cares!? it's an attention whore article, meant to create forum threads like this one and generate interest in the authors site/magazine. what he says is stupid, he knows it, we know it, so screw it and lets let this bullshit thread die.

This thread would have benefitted from a lack of your presence.

 

[Link Man]

I was talking in particular about Wii and the majority of third parties using the same engines from the PS2 era....

And, at least UE3 is next-gen....

Current-gen.

And first-generation current gen at that. We should be seeing new, more powerful engines by now.

 

[Zombie James]

MGS4?

If companies are losing money, maybe is their fucking fault, a year ago, everyone was happy about how much games X360 was selling, and now it's broken?...

The funny thing is, Konami's making money and it's mostly due to MGS4.

 

[Kapsama]

Every game with decent visuals.

I highly doubt it. Gears cost less than $15 million IIRC

Assassin's Creed, GTAIV, Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy XIII, and many many others...

Are you just listing all the blockbuster games or do all these really have budgets that exceeds $30m?

 

[Deku]

I highly doubt it. Gears cost less than $15 million IIRC

With an engine they made themselves so they probably charged themselves nothing to use it. True cost would include an opportunity cost licensing fee.

Time to wait for the fallacious 'but gears is 3rd partiez and it madez moniez!' argument/.:lol

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Current-gen.

And first-generation current gen at that. We should be seeing new, more powerful engines by now.

And a bunch of them still look like PS2 enhanced Xbox ports and 2 or more steps down from the best of GC, is still unnacceptable IMO.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

And you're two gens behind. :lol

If the Wii was good enough, why are all the third parties doing pretty badly on it?
The average consumer (nongamers) don't mind the graphics of the Wii because they don't know jack. They are non-thinking consumers. Those consumers goto best buy asking if the latest HDTV has antennas.

Visual and audio fidelity is a good thing for games and movies.

MGS4 on the PS2 would have done worst than MGS3. The PS2 was at peak performance and a lot of Kojima's ideas could not be put into reality with the PS2.

Congratulations, you fucking nimrod, you just paraphrased the first post I made in this thread.

 

[Draft]

I highly doubt it. Gears cost less than $15 million IIRC



Are you just listing all the blockbuster games or do all these really have budgets that exceeds $30m?

Well what do you think they cost then, Pachter? Every time one of these neckbeard rocking developers starts to bitch about next-gen, they throw out figures in the $30mm range.

Gears. $10mm, in fact. If you believe the bloated lie factory that is Mark Rein.

 

[mckmas8808]

Clearly HD development is broken. Look how many companies are losing money. Look at these games that cost $30-$50 million to make and need to sell 3+ million units to turn a profit. That shit is insane and unsustainable.

I don't particularly like the Wii or the type of games that end up on the Wii, but at least they make fiscal sense.

Sony and MS should worry less about beating the Wii and more about figuring a way to turn their consoles into money makers for 3rd parties.

How many games really cost $30-$50 million to make? REALLY?!

 

[krypt0nian]

Fucking luddite.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

The Penny Arcade one?

Damn digital must be for people who got free subscriptions.

Are those even renewed? The site only provides paid subscriptions now.


The article: I find it odd that he blames the graphics (or I'm reading it wrong), where both GTA4 and MGS4 are lacking in their mechanics rather than graphics.

 

[Wallach]

I was talking in particular about Wii and the majority of third parties using the same engines from the PS2 era....

And, at least UE3 is next-gen....

I'm aware of what you were referring to - my point is that the solution of "next-gen" HD consoles has the exact same flaw (or what you're claiming is a flaw). But apparently they are all cheap because they don't make their own engine; never mind that company after company is posting millions in losses (mostly because they are chasing these "superior" platforms), these folks should be investing even more in these projects, right?

The truth of the matter is that, most of the time, being able to use a pre-existing engine is a good thing. There are tons of games out there that you probably would have no idea are built on the exact same engine; UE3 is one of the... least subtle cases due to their texture application, and even that has worked out to our benefit (see: Bioshock, Mass Effect).

 

[mckmas8808]

Well what do you think they cost then, Pachter? Every time one of these neckbeard rocking developers starts to bitch about next-gen, they throw out figures in the $30mm range.

Gears. $10mm, in fact. If you believe the bloated lie factory that is Mark Rein.

Can you give us a list of those $30M games?

 

[Deku]

Fucking luddite.

a luddite would be someone who chooses not to play video games and play some card game hobby instead.

finding flaws in the bloated technological terrors of this generation of HD consoles is as much a luddite as luke skywalker blowing up the death star!

 

[Draft]

Can you give us a list of those $30M games?

I tell you what, you know so much, why don't you tell me what you think they cost to dev. What do you think the average X360 or PS3 game, not a piece of shovel ware, but something average like Army of Two, Warhawk, etc, cost to make.

 

[Link Man]

Are those even renewed? The site only provides paid subscriptions now.


The article: I find it odd that he blames the graphics (or I'm reading it wrong), where both GTA4 and MGS4 are lacking in their mechanics rather than graphics.

You're reading it wrong. He's saying that those games focused more on the graphics than the mechanics, and thus are worse off for it.

I think.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I'm aware of what you were referring to - my point is that the solution of "next-gen" HD consoles has the exact same flaw (or what you're claiming is a flaw). But apparently they are all cheap because they don't make their own engine; never mind that company after company is posting millions in losses (mostly because they are chasing these "superior" platforms), these folks should be investing even more in these projects, right?

The truth of the matter is that, most of the time, being able to use a pre-existing engine is a good thing. There are tons of games out there that you probably would have no idea are built on the exact same engine; UE3 is one of the... least subtle cases due to their texture application, and even that has worked out to our benefit (see: Bioshock, Mass Effect).

Well but at least they are purchasing U3, a engine built around HD consoles, their are making that "effort", instead of using UE2 or whatever engine they already licensed.

They want to reach the same level that other companies with the built in-house engines.

On wii, that even dosn't happen (at least until now) they were just adapting engines they already have on PS2, without buying or making their own engines built around the Wii arquitechture...., that's the difference...

 

[7Th]

People that actually want “this industry to movie forward” shouldn’t be arguing about consoles when PC gaming has been making advances in experience, depth and presentation for a long time by now. Besides, and correct me if I’m wrong, don’t simple online puzzle games hold a bigger user base than anything Wii?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I tell you what, you know so much, why don't you tell me what you think they cost to dev. What do you think the average X360 or PS3 game, not a piece of shovel ware, but something average like Army of Two, Warhawk, etc, cost to make.

I don't know what they cost to make...

But something terrible must had happened in the development of those games to reach the $30 million budget...

I mean, it's just unlikely that those games had 3+ years of development, +100 person working on them and huge massive marketing campaigns, like the $30+ games you posted.

 

[mckmas8808]

I tell you what, you know so much, why don't you tell me what you think they cost to dev. What do you think the average X360 or PS3 game, not a piece of shovel ware, but something average like Army of Two, Warhawk, etc, cost to make.

Those games I would say $15-$25 million depending on the game. For instance I can easily see Army of Two costing $20M to make.

Do we know how much this game sold? Because others will run in here and yell out Assassins Creed, COD4, GTA4, etc but nobody wants to talk about how much they sell.

 

[FieryBalrog]

With an engine they made themselves so they probably charged themselves nothing to use it. True cost would include an opportunity cost licensing fee.

Someone doesn't understand economics

There is no opportunity cost to using your engine, you're not "using it up" so someone else can't use it.

The cost is all in the R&D, and if the engine was profitable it was worth it, in fact you can factor in the savings you get from not licensing someone else's engine into the revenue the engine generates. Situation is the total opposite.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I can hardly contemplate what this vast majority of games being spoken of is. Is this like Nixon's 'silent majority' an amorphous ideological construct?

I'll enjoy my games elsewhere thank you.

there are two good games on the wii, and they both have "galaxy" in the title. if subjectivity isn't your bag, go to metacritic and consider the average scores for each platform's library

 

[KTallguy]

The cost is all in the R&D, and if the engine was profitable it was worth it, in fact you can factor in the savings you get from not licensing someone else's engine into the revenue the engine generates.

Case in point: The White Engine, or Crystal Tools.

 

[Link Man]

People that actually want “this industry to movie forward” shouldn’t be arguing about consoles when PC gaming has been making advances in experience, depth and presentation for a long time by now. Besides, and correct me if I’m wrong, don’t simple online puzzle games hold a bigger user base than anything Wii?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't simple online puzzle games free?

 

[Kapsama]

With an engine they made themselves so they probably charged themselves nothing to use it. True cost would include an opportunity cost licensing fee.

Oh I didn't know that licensing the UT3 engine cost $20 million dollars. Mark Rein is a real cut throat.

Gears. $10mm, in fact. If you believe the bloated lie factory that is Mark Rein.

Yes let's attack the credibility of people who don't help our arguments.

I tell you what, you know so much, why don't you tell me what you think they cost to dev. What do you think the average X360 or PS3 game, not a piece of shovel ware, but something average like Army of Two, Warhawk, etc, cost to make.

Real nice. But since you're the one claiming that HD games cost $30 to $40 million why don't you provide proof, instead of asking for proof that they don't?

 

[Link Man]

there are two good games on the wii, and they both have "galaxy" in the title. if subjectivity isn't your bag, go to metacritic and consider the average scores for each platform's library

Wow, you trust review scores?

:lol

I knew you were a Nintendo troll, but this just takes the cake.

 

[Bearillusion]

IN 2008 A WAR WAS ONE.

:lol Yeah I just noticed by mistake.

 

[felipeko]

Do we know how much this game sold? Because others will run in here and yell out Assassins Creed, COD4, GTA4, etc but nobody wants to talk about how much they sell.

I'm sure this model is working out.. Just look at most companies financial results since the HD generation began.

Real nice. But since you're the one claiming that HD games cost $30 to $40 million why don't you provide proof, instead of asking for proof that they don't?

Same for you, look companies fiscal results, and answer me: judging by the big sales of those games, why the profit is so fucking low?

 

[Drinky Crow]

Wow, you trust review scores?

:lol

I knew you were a Nintendo troll, but this just takes the cake.

how do you function in society

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm sure this model is working out.. Just look at most companies financial results since the HD generation began.

Same for you, look companies fiscal results, and answer me: judging by the big sales of those games, why the profit is so fucking low?

New engines are taking time to make. They will make their money soon enough. Especially when the 360 and PS3 sell more systems.

How much do you think Soul Cailber 4 cost? And lets keep in mind it sold 2 million copies already.

 

[Link Man]

:lol Yeah I just noticed by mistake.

:lol

You're on a role!

Spoiler

Intentional.

 

[rollingstart]

Wow, you trust review scores?

:lol

I knew you were a Nintendo troll, but this just takes the cake.

How are we supposed to judge then? Can we collect various impressions from people on this forum then? Could that be an accurate measure?

The Wii really doesn't have that many good games, especially when it is compared to the 360/PS3. I am being fair by leaving the PC out of this comparison. I think saying only 2 games is pushing it, but there really aren't that many good Wii games out there. It may get phenominal games like Mario Galaxy once or twice a year, but it isn't anywhere near the steady influx of choice games coming out on other platforms.

 

[Private Hoffman]

Hello people!
this is brandon sheffield, by the way...

first - I agree with what hauton says, to get that out of the way.

Second, the point of this article was not at all that next-gen is pointless, and I would hope that anyone reading it would see that...if not, well, maybe that's my fault.

The point was rather that we often talk about the day when we will reach the point when graphics don't matter from the perspective of selling a game. My point was that for the average consumer, we may well have reached that point already. Of course next-gen games will keep coming out, this appeals very much to a certain element of the hardcore (personally I'd like to see more high-res 2D games, but, well...I'm just holding out hope for KOF XII).

Except in certain cases, like racing games or maybe exploration games that need sweeping vistas, most of the time the graphics don't actually enhance gameplay. Sometimes they do, but by and large, what makes a good game is the way it plays, as hauton says. So my point is that if we're already there, then we can sort of stop talking about the graphics plateau, because it's basically been reached for most consumers.

Sure, MGS4 sold more than MGS3 - but it had a whole lot more push behind it than MGS3 ever did, since sony had a whole lot invested in that. I mean it was bundled with some systems, after all!

To whoever said it was a dumb editorial - I hope you read the article, not just the excerpts. If you read it and still feel that way, that's perfectly fine, but please make sure you know full well what you're actually discussing.

The point above the point (I am trying to avoid saying meta like a douchebag...but hey, I just did!) is to get developers to think about this, not to declare the death of next-gen.

The first poster says I end with something about cars. Well yes, it's called a metaphor! Here's my closing statement:

"It turns out that the average consumer of today does not necessarily want a Ferrari hooked up to his or her entertainment system ... The average consumer is content with the Toyota Corolla of gaming systems, and for that reason, I propose that the war of bigger and badder graphics can safely end, and we can finally focus on pushing gameplay to the fore."

I said the war can end. The cock waving can end. Graphics as the *reason* for buying a game can end. That's not heralding the end of next-gen, it's just saying that it's no longer the deciding factor, ala Mode 7 versus Blast Processing.

I don't post here frequently so I apologize if it takes me a while to respond to any comments.

Your article is wrong, though.

MGS3, arguably better than MGS2, went on to sell relatively poorly (in the series) because it failed to break new ground.

You can break new ground in a number of ways, it doesn't have to be just graphically. Breaking new ground could come in the form of the way you interface with the console (controllers), or the way that you connect with other people (online play).

MGS3 suffered for the same reason that Gran Turismo 4 suffered in terms of sales; sure, it was a great sequel, but did nothing to really break new ground in a number of different areas. Graphically, it was largely the same with marginal improvements, both lacked online play focus, and both had similar gameplay to their predecessors. In many ways, you can consider this phenomenon the "sophomore slump"

MGS4 has sold considerably more on the PS3, despite the PS3's user base being significantly less. MGS4 would not have sold as much as it did if it simply looked like MGS2/3. Graphics have an important impact on the quality of MGS games because at their core they are highly focused on cinematics.

It's like arguing that production values don't matter in movies; why make an entire movie with a sountrack, great actors, amazing stage sets, when you can simply get the "same" story from a storyboard and voice actors.

Fact is, it's not the same, just as MGS4 is not the same as MGS2/3; it's set a new standard and fans of the series expect that. No one is suggesting that graphics are the only way for the industry to progress; rather, that graphics are an important component and will always be an important component. Anyone suggesting otherwise is foolish.

 

[UntoldDreams]

I appreciate the fiscal points but honestly, until we have HOLODECK 3D visuals I don't particularly want technology to slow down or stop moving nor do I think that it was a mistake of any kind.

McDonalds sells way more than fancy french restaurants. People that love McDonalds can be fanboyish all they want.

However, the moment they start telling me what I am supposed to eat and enjoy for dinner (or lecture me about what is fiscally intellingent) is when they can burn themselves in 8 flavors of hell.