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Game Developer magazine joins the next-gen hate train (Wii > *.*, Blu-ray sucks, etc)

Deku

Banned
Drinky Crow said:
there are two good games on the wii, and they both have "galaxy" in the title. if subjectivity isn't your bag, go to metacritic and consider the average scores for each platform's library

I think the argument isn't so much subjective measurements of game quality or what aggregate sites like metacritic thinks, but rather an objective comment that even if we grant a console such as a 360 the status of 'best gaming box' it says very little about said box.
 
Deku said:
a luddite would be someone who chooses not to play video games and play some card game hobby instead.

finding flaws in the bloated technological terrors of this generation of HD consoles is as much a luddite as luke skywalker blowing up the death star!


A luddite mentality is relishing old shitty tech and trying to tell us why new tech is bad for us.

Point stands.
 
Deku said:
I think the argument isn't so much subjective measurements of game quality or what aggregate sites like metacritic thinks, but rather an objective comment that even if we grant a console such as a 360 the status of 'best gaming box' it says very little about said box.

As far as I am concerned the greatest game in the universe might just as well be Tetris.

I don't want to play tetris. Now what?
 

Deku

Banned
UntoldDreams said:
As far as I am concerned the greatest game in the universe might just as well be Tetris.

I don't want to play tetris. Now what?

oh i'm not arguing for greatest game, i'm arguing for the fact that next-gen platforms have holes in their library and are not that great.

A luddite mentality is relishing old shitty tech and trying to tell us why new tech is bad for us.

Point stands.

360 tech is old.

if you're truly bleeding edge, you'd be a pc gamer.
 
Deku said:
360 tech is old.

if you're truly bleeding edge, you'd be a pc gamer.

I have a great PC. I love it. Telling me shitty wii tech is in any way comparable to 360/PS3 is really reaching. :lol

I'll always have the best in PC and console tech. The wii is for grannies and Nintendo apologists.
 

ThatObviousUser

ὁ αἴσχιστος παῖς εἶ
Zeitgeister said:
Are those even renewed? The site only provides paid subscriptions now.

I have insane luck with free mag subscriptions. I signed up with those free survey things like two years ago and I've been getting EGM, Game Developer, and Game Informer free ever since. I was even getting NP for free for a while even after Nintendo cancelled the "register games for free sub" deal. :D

But I'd definitely pay for hard (soft?) copies of GD, it has such insight.

On a side not EGM has been threatening to audit me for about a year, even though I never signed up to pay. And I still receive free issues...

krypt0nian said:
I have a great PC. I love it. Telling me shitty wii tech is in any way comparable to 360/PS3 is really reaching. :lol

I'll always have the best in PC and console tech. The wii is for grannies and Nintendo apologists.

Keep telling yourself that, you're gonna miss out on some great games.
 

Deku

Banned
krypt0nian said:
I have a great PC. I love it. Telling me shitty wii tech is in any way comparable to 360/PS3 is really reaching. :lol

I'll always have the best in PC and console tech. The wii is for grannies and Nintendo apologists.

so basically older tech vs even older tech is what we're arguing about.

And I'm not averse to technology and I'm not sure why you think knocking on the Wii is going to make me say something?!? I'm just saying im to a point where what's inside the box isn't something I care about and I can evaluate the games as a game independent of the box, what this gen has produced are games I either don't like to play or just plain don't like.

Is that so hard to understand?
 
krypt0nian said:
I have a great PC. I love it. Telling me shitty wii tech is in any way comparable to 360/PS3 is really reaching. :lol

I'll always have the best in PC and console tech. The wii is for grannies and Nintendo apologists.
you're so cool!!
 

vanguardian1

poor, homeless and tasteless
profit_or_loss.gif


I'm not against the idea of moving technology forward, but if it's pushed too hard and too quickly for it's own good, it bears it's own consequences.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
vanguardian1 said:
profit_or_loss.gif


I'm not against the idea of moving technology forward, but if it's pushed too hard and too quickly for it's own good, it bears it's own consequences.


You guys do realize that the PS3 and 360's games this holiday season will sale ass loads right?

Most of those loses will either be alot lower by next summer or straight profits!
 

Link Man

Banned
Linkzg said:
How are we supposed to judge then? Can we collect various impressions from people on this forum then? Could that be an accurate measure?
Not really, though it is a better measure for a game's flaws.

The thing with game reviews is that gaming journalists tend to have a more 'hardcore' mentality. Thus, they will tend to rate games that they view as 'hardcore' more highly (sometimes overrating them), and the aggregate sites will skew more favorably towards those types of games.

Guess where the majority of those games are.
 

ThatObviousUser

ὁ αἴσχιστος παῖς εἶ
mckmas8808 said:
You guys do realize that the PS3 and 360's games this holiday season will sale ass loads right?

Most of those loses will either be alot lower by next summer or straight profits!

:lol Ever hopeful?
 

Steroyd

Member
Christ that youtube example is godawful, if it's free and doesn't take up Harddrive space of course I'd watch the video in shittyvision over Blu-ray.
 
At some point you have to draw a line. If it was economically more intelligent to give up flushing toilets or electrical lighting I'd say screw off because I want it anyways.

I appreciate that great games can be made on an Atari 2600 even today.
I appreciate this is possible. I just don't care.

I appreciate a good personality can be more important than physical looks.
I appreciate this fact. Just the same, I'd like a girl with good personality + good looks.

Why must we sacrifice anything at all? I want everything.

I think that is actually normal saying you want it all rather than saying that HD is pointless or that Fun must be sacrificed due to higher cost.
 

JudgeN

Member
vanguardian1 said:
profit_or_loss.gif


I'm not against the idea of moving technology forward, but if it's pushed too hard and too quickly for it's own good, it bears it's own consequences.

When you make shitty games, you don't make money. Most of companies in the red didn't make anything worth a shit.
 
Culex said:
Reread the article! He says GRAPHICS don't matter, not technology.
i'd rather see an HD blob of jelly bouncing around with great physics than a low res low poly wtf is that ball looking thing bouncing around the screen.
 

Deku

Banned
no such thing as free lunch. if you want everything, then buy a PS3 for its true price, not its subsidized one and pay for $100 games.

And your Atari 2600 analogy is disingenuous. PS2 era games are rightfully great and relevant because next-gen has failed to do anything more than prettied up games and introduce such abominations as downloading DLC keys with an ever narrow range of games and genres to choose from.

So we have less choice, more expensive games, more first person shitters, and more nickle and diming.
 
Deku said:
no such thing as free lunch. if you want everything, then buy a PS3 for its true price, not its subsidized one and pay for $100 games.

And your Atari 2600 analogy is disingenuous. PS2 era games are rightfully great and relevant because next-gen has failed to do anything more than prettied up games and introduce such abominations as downloading DLC keys.

Now you are overstepping aren't you?

Surely you can't say EVERYTHING on the 360/PS3 is garbage unworthy of value. Even if you truly believe this you can't speak for everyone else on Earth. Unless you are God. Are you God?
 

Deku

Banned
UntoldDreams said:
Now you are overstepping aren't you?

Surely you can't say EVERYTHING on the 360/PS3 is garbage unworthy of value. Even if you truly believe this you can't speak for everyone else on Earth. Unless you are God. Are you God?

I'm not saying every game is as you described.
 

Opiate

Member
mckmas8808 said:
You guys do realize that the PS3 and 360's games this holiday season will sale ass loads right?

Most of those loses will either be alot lower by next summer or straight profits!

This isn't how generations work, historically speaking.

Companies will sell more games on the PS3/360, that is true. However:

1) They will also sell much less software on the PS2
2) The cost to develop games will continue to increase, assuming we want games at the end of the generation to look better than games at the beginning

Historically speaking, Mckmas, it hasn't worked the way you're describing. On the whole, third parties are struggling, and it is a very big problem.
 

vanguardian1

poor, homeless and tasteless
krypt0nian said:
I'd rather try to catch up on all the great games on the 360/PS3. I won't support Nintendo's cash grab.

And believe it or not there ARE gamers who can't find much to play on those consoles. Especially when including price and reliability factors.
 
vanguardian1 said:
And believe it or not there ARE gamers who can't find much to play on those consoles. Especially when including price and reliability factors.

Just as there are gamers that can't find anything on the wii. It can be cheap and reliable but without games that I want to play, its just old tech.

Plenty to play on current gen machines. Sorry you can't get into them.

I find the OP's quoted article to be laughable.
 

vanguardian1

poor, homeless and tasteless
krypt0nian said:
Just as there are gamers that can't find anything on the wii.

We hear that all of the time here on Gaf. Just rarely the opposite.

krypt0nian said:
It can be cheap and reliable but without games that I want to play, its just old tech.

I wouldn't argue a greater advancement in cpu/gpu tech would not have been welcomed, but it's hardly my only priority in gaming consoles, and apparently so for many gamers, some Gaffers included.

krypt0nian said:
Plenty to play on current gen machines. Sorry you can't get into them.

It sucks in a sense, but I feel it's just as much Sony and Microsoft's fault as it is the developers. *shrugs*
 

ThatObviousUser

ὁ αἴσχιστος παῖς εἶ
krypt0nian said:
I'd rather try to catch up on all the great games on the 360/PS3. I won't support Nintendo's cash grab.

That's how I feel but in reverse. There's plenty of Wii games I still need to buy (NMH, Z&W, SPM, NiGHTS) and plenty to satisfy me on the horizon (GHWT, Fragile, Conduit) -not including downloads either. I'd rather spend PS360 money on those games than on those consoles.

And refering to it as "Nintendo's cash grab" is laughably immature, please refrain from saying such silly things in the future, k?
 
Deku said:
I'm not saying every game is as you described.

Your words are strong on personal opinion my friend. However, it stops at opinion.

"Value" by definition is perceived on an individual level. To try to define value for society is a difficult thing.

Certainly its almost impossible to apply such a concept to something like how much I might "enjoy" my entertainment. The best you can do is try to make fiscal arguments that I could get more enjoyment for my money, but even that is impossible to define.

How can anyone even attempt to gauge how much my enjoyment is worth in dollars?
 

Kapsama

Member
vanguardian1 said:
I'm not against the idea of moving technology forward, but if it's pushed too hard and too quickly for it's own good, it bears it's own consequences.
Oh please that chart is of limited use at best.

Take 2 has been in trouble for half a decade now, even at their height when San Andreas sold 15 million copies they were hardly making any money.

THQ has released no $30-$40m titles which are being blamed for this gen's woes. They rely on licensed games.

Sega, when has Sega ever made any money?

Atari, was already in deep trouble when this gen started, in fact their big HD project is what's helping them right now.

Sci, Eidos has been a troubled business for nearly a decade now.

EA, shitty business practices and reliance on licenses is catching up with them. But they'll probably be out of this mess in no time.
 

Opiate

Member
Kapsama said:
Oh please that chart is of limited use at best.

Take 2 has been in trouble for half a decade now, even at their height when San Andreas sold 15 million copies they were hardly making any money.

THQ has released no $30-$40m titles which are being blamed for this gen's woes. They rely on licensed games.

Sega, when has Sega ever made any money?

Atari, was already in deep trouble when this gen started, in fact their big HD project is what's helping them right now.

Sci, Eidos has been a troubled business for nearly a decade now.

EA, shitty business practices and reliance on licenses is catching up with them. But they'll probably be out of this mess in no time.

Just out of curiosity, who do you believe "should" be making money? It seems like you just rationalized away half the industry in an "of course they're losing money" way.
This is not how the industry looked 5 years ago, by the way. Five years ago, Electronic Arts alone was making more than all third parties were combined last year. Take Two had annual profits of ~100 Million as of 2003.

For long term growth, you need profits. The industry (minus Nintendo) is effectively in a state of stagnation, or perhaps even retraction (again, minus Nintendo).
 

kiUNiT

Member
krzyspc said:
No I have the best of two worlds, Wii, PC.

Who fucking cares I ve got Pc,Wii, PS3,360 and I can play perfect ports of space invaders, galaga and xveious on my Nokia N95 so there.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
well I think he's right.

I had a wii only, now I've tired of the novelty factor and slow release of good nintendo games (I'm not a fan over the SUPER CASUAL) and the balance board doesn't interest me, I just got a 360 and spent an entire rainy afternoon on the campaign of Halo. It was awesome.

But he's still right. The gaming 'hardcore' and the really high end stuff is a bit of a niche market. Okay, a really big niche market, but it goes along with all the people with the best tvs and surround sound setups etc. Your everyday man doesn't even KNOW about this shit and PS3/XBOX360 are trying to sell themselves as that.

Where as Wii is 'look at my super fun controller!' It was a genius move really.

Now that the Wii is no longer new and unbelievable, I crave the old style games again with fancy graphics. I leave the Wii in the lounge for my friends to play some wii sports and the xbox lives in my room where I can get on live and waste hours at a time without bothering the rest of the house.
 

avatar299

Banned
Kapsama said:
Oh please that chart is of limited use at best.

Take 2 has been in trouble for half a decade now, even at their height when San Andreas sold 15 million copies they were hardly making any money.

THQ has released no $30-$40m titles which are being blamed for this gen's woes. They rely on licensed games.

Sega, when has Sega ever made any money?

Atari, was already in deep trouble when this gen started, in fact their big HD project is what's helping them right now.

Sci, Eidos has been a troubled business for nearly a decade now.

EA, shitty business practices and reliance on licenses is catching up with them. But they'll probably be out of this mess in no time.
That's just a bunch of crap, and a flagrant misreading. That is not the overall worth of company, but their profit, so even if the company had been losing money before, they had a fair chance of making a profit this past year. They didn't.

The chart is clear
 
avatar299 said:
That's just a bunch of crap, and a flagrant misreading. That is not the overall worth of company, but their profit, so even if the company had been losing money before, they had a fair chance of making a profit this past year. They didn't.

The chart is clear

Please explain to me what is "clear" about that chart.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
This is an interesting mix of fanboi sales talk that i haven't enjoyed for a while, and i'm in on all of it.

Read: careful quoting that chart without knowing exactly what it means.
 

avatar299

Banned
Private Hoffman said:
Please explain to me what is "clear" about that chart.
Companies that didn't invest in the wii lost. Companies that completely ignore the casual market have seen their profits slow, or they saw a loss.
 
avatar299 said:
Companies that didn't invest in the wii lost. Companies that completely ignore the casual market have seen their profits slow, or they saw a loss.

Interesting. I see Konami at the top of the charts, yet their recent quarterly reports indicate that the majority of their sales have come from the PS3/PS2/PSP and they reported a rather healthy profit from this investment.

http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=330127

1. Consolidated Financial Results for the First Quarter Ended June 30, 2008

(Millions of Yen, except per share data)


Net Revenues 70,805 (+16.7%)

Operating Income 11,611 (+65.6%)

Net Income 5,664 (+46.6%)


-“Metal Gear Solid 4 Guns of The Patriots” shipped over 3 million units worldwide.

-MGS Series had accounted for cumulative sales of more than 25 million units worldwide as of the end of June 2008.

- The METAL GEAR SOLID brand has continued to maintain its dynamic potential. Sales are still steadily increasing


FY2009 Q1

Unit Sales Platform Mix

Consoles

PS3 57.3 %

PS2 11.5 %

Wii 9.9 %

360 2.6 %


Handhelds

PSP 9.5 %

NDS 7.6 %


PC&Others

1.6%


Unit sales of video game software (Unit sales breakdown )

Geographic Areas (units in million)

Japan 1.93

North America 2.59

Europa 2.3

Asia 0.12

Total 6.94


Genre/Category (units in million)

Soccer 0.95

Baseball 0.36

TV Animated 0.3

Music 0.33

Metal Gear 3.94

Other 1.05

Total 6.94



Capcom also has focused on PS360 development and has been profitable.

Seems like your theory about "lack of Wii support = death" is completely unfounded, though I'm sure you'd like to delude yourself into believing that this is truly the case.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Private Hoffman said:
Interesting. I see Konami at the top of the charts, yet their recent quarterly reports indicate that the majority of their sales have come from the PS3/PS2/PSP and they reported a rather healthy profit from this investment.

Capcom also has focused on PS360 development and has been profitable.

Seems like your theory about "lack of Wii support = death" is completely unfounded, though I'm sure you'd like to delude yourself into believing that this is truly the case.

dude.
 

avatar299

Banned
Private Hoffman said:
Interesting. I see Konami at the top of the charts, yet their recent quarterly reports indicate that the majority of their sales have come from the PS3/PS2/PSP and they reported a rather healthy profit from this investment.

http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=330127





Capcom also has focused on PS360 development and has been profitable.

Seems like your theory about "lack of Wii support = death" is completely unfounded, though I'm sure you'd like to delude yourself into believing that this is truly the case.
Konami might be an exception to the rule, but it's not like they don't make wii games and capcom has plenty of very successful wii games. Your 2 best examples is the parent company of hudson soft and one of the most successful 3rd party publishers on wii?

Explain EA, explain Sony and MS who should be seeing the most profit if HD is infallible. Explain Midway, a company that has shitted on wii ever since it's launch and has been clearly pro HD all gen.

The 3rd party companies with high profit have expanded into the casual sector. Those who have opposed it aren't doing that hot
 

vanguardian1

poor, homeless and tasteless
PantherLotus said:
Read: careful quoting that chart without knowing exactly what it means.

Sorry, I'll admit I don't completely understand it myself. I believed someone asked for this chart specifically, and I had the thread it was in bookmarked, so I thought I'd help. >.<
 
avatar299 said:
Konami might be an exception to the rule, but it's not like they don't make wii games and capcom has plenty of very successful wii games. Your 2 best examples is the parent company of hudson soft and one of the most successful 3rd party publishers on wii?

Explain EA, explain Sony and MS who should be seeing the most profit if HD is infallible. Explain Midway, a company that has shitted on wii ever since it's launch and has been clearly pro HD all gen.

The 3rd party companies with high profit have expanded into the casual sector. Those who have opposed it aren't doing that hot

I can explain Microsoft and Sony; Sony has just recently become profitable after their initial huge investment on the PS3. They also incurred losses upfront on the PS2. Microsoft has been profitable for quite some time, despite the RROD fiasco, but their results are obfuscated by the fact that the financial data is lumped into their entertainment division, which contains many different groups not associated with videogames.

Hasn't EA been acquiring development studios which is contributing to their temporary losses? It's not like their software isn't selling, last I checked.

Activision is yet another company that focuses heavily on PS360 development, and I'm sure the vast majority of their profits come from these platforms and not the Wii.

Your suggestion that developers that didn't hop on the Wii bandwagon are losing is just completely untrue. That's not to say that they could potentially be doing more on the Wii, but to paint this gloomy picture about them for supposedly shafting the Wii is inaccurate.
 
avatar299 said:
Konami might be an exception to the rule, but it's not like they don't make wii games and capcom has plenty of very successful wii games. Your 2 best examples is the parent company of hudson soft and one of the most successful 3rd party publishers on wii?

Explain EA, explain Sony and MS who should be seeing the most profit if HD is infallible. Explain Midway, a company that has shitted on wii ever since it's launch and has been clearly pro HD all gen.

The 3rd party companies with high profit have expanded into the casual sector. Those who have opposed it aren't doing that hot

Don't forget Sega. Or Bandai Namco.
 

Opiate

Member
Private Hoffman said:
Hasn't EA been acquiring development studios which is contributing to their temporary losses? It's not like their software isn't selling, last I checked.

No, this is not how M&A works (in most cases). The cost of acquisitions is balanced equally and exactly by a compensatory increase in corporate assets. EA is just flat out losing money.

Activision is yet another company that focuses heavily on PS360 development, and I'm sure the vast majority of their profits come from these platforms and not the Wii.

Then you did not read last quarter's financials: The Wii and 360 had the highest revenue for Activision. We can assume they've spent a lot less money on the Wii, and therefore logically, they've made more profit there. Recently, at least. However, Activision does prove one thing: what works on the Wii (Guitar Hero) can also work on the PS3 and 360 in some cases, so saying "put it on the Wii!" isn't even right. Perhaps "put it on the Wii in addition to the PS3 and 360!" Is fair.

Your suggestion that developers that didn't hop on the Wii bandwagon are losing is just completely untrue. That's not to say that they could potentially be doing more on the Wii, but to paint this gloomy picture about them for supposedly shafting the Wii is inaccurate.

This is quite true, Private: anyone who suggests some simple formula like "Wii = win, PS3/360 = fail" is just baiting. However, I think we can both agree that there is something wrong in the industry, and that things need to change. The combined profits of all the companies listed here (besides Nintendo) are -566 million dollars. You can't have an entire industry hemorrhaging money like that -- the industry (again, outside of Nintendo) is either stagnant or even in retraction.
 

Neo C.

Member
exoduster said:
Hello people!
this is brandon sheffield, by the way...

[...]
Second, the point of this article was not at all that next-gen is pointless, and I would hope that anyone reading it would see that...if not, well, maybe that's my fault.

The point was rather that we often talk about the day when we will reach the point when graphics don't matter from the perspective of selling a game. My point was that for the average consumer, we may well have reached that point already. Of course next-gen games will keep coming out, this appeals very much to a certain element of the hardcore
[...]

Except in certain cases, like racing games or maybe exploration games that need sweeping vistas, most of the time the graphics don't actually enhance gameplay. Sometimes they do, but by and large, what makes a good game is the way it plays, as hauton says. So my point is that if we're already there, then we can sort of stop talking about the graphics plateau, because it's basically been reached for most consumers.

Sure, MGS4 sold more than MGS3 - but it had a whole lot more push behind it than MGS3 ever did, since sony had a whole lot invested in that. I mean it was bundled with some systems, after all!
[...]
The point above the point (I am trying to avoid saying meta like a douchebag...but hey, I just did!) is to get developers to think about this, not to declare the death of next-gen.

[...]
"It turns out that the average consumer of today does not necessarily want a Ferrari hooked up to his or her entertainment system ... The average consumer is content with the Toyota Corolla of gaming systems, and for that reason, I propose that the war of bigger and badder graphics can safely end, and we can finally focus on pushing gameplay to the fore."

I said the war can end. The cock waving can end. Graphics as the *reason* for buying a game can end. That's not heralding the end of next-gen, it's just saying that it's no longer the deciding factor, ala Mode 7 versus Blast Processing.
[...]
You made the big mistake by not including the talk about development costs in your article (at least I didn't see it in the excerpts).
When you exclude the talk about development costs, lots of people won't understand why is it good that we have probably reached the graphic plateau. These people don't see that pushing the tech as fast as possible doesn't give the companies a healthy profit (in fact lots of them have seen losses).
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Just so we're all on the same page, I put the list of profit/loss game pubs and their main focus next to it, using these:

Casual (& kids) | Handhelds | All | Next-Gen

Where do each get the majority of their profits? (70%+)

Profit
Nintendo: Casual | Handhelds
Disney: Casual
Konami: Next-Gen
Activision: All
Vivendi: PC.
Ubisoft: All
Sq-Enix: Handhelds | Next-Gen
Namco: Next-Gen
Capcom: Handhelds | Next-Gen
Codemasters: Next-Gen

Loss
D3: Handhelds
Take2: Next-Gen
THQ: Casual | All
Sega: Casual | All
Atari: Next-Gen
Midway: Next-Gen
SCi: Casual | Next-Gen
EA: All | Next-Gen
MS: Next-Gen
Sony: Next-Gen
 
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