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[Monocle]

I used to feel that way, but GTA4 kind of turned that on it's head. The world they created is so real & immersive that I actually feel kind of bad running down pedestrians for no reason, because their bodies realistically flop around and they shriek in horror. Couple that with your passenger in the car saying "What the fuck are you doing??" and it just feels like that's not something Niko would do. That, to me, is the potential of videogame storytellingmaking being realized

I was mostly trying to describe my feeling that gameplay rarely feels like a depiction of plot events unfolding in the vivid and very specific manner of events in cutscenes. When I see something in a cutscene it tends to feel much more like an etched-in-stone statement about a game's world or characters than, say, dumping the bodies of four hookers behind an abandoned building in the course of a normal playing session. In the OP you wrote:

To me, the story told in GTA4 is not the one of Niko Bellic's rise thorugh the ranks of the criminal underworld and getting revenge on an evil bastard. The story of GTA4 goes more like this:

Niko Bellic picks up his girlfriend, Alex, from her middle East side apartment. She tells him that she got a bikini wax just for him, and that he should be honored to be written about in her blog. They go to Club Liberty and get wasted. Attempting to drive home drunk, Niko crashes into a cop car, sending them into a high speed chase over the bridge to Bohan. Niko crashes the poorly handling van a few more times, causing it to explode, killing them both.

This suggests to me that your experience with GTAIV has been much more character-oriented than mine. I too empathize with the character of Niko Bellic to the extent that I strongly feel certain behavior is completely out of character for him, yet many times when I engage in that behavior in the game my conception of him as a person tends to drop away, and to me he becomes merely an avatar. It goes back and forth though, which can feel kind of odd. Whenever Niko answers his phone, he immediately feels like a character again. And as you mentioned, pedestrians are much more realistic in GTAIV. Killing them usually makes me feel bad, and their lifelike responses (some offer a polite "Excuse me." when Niko bumps into them) add to the moral conflict. :lol

Actually, GTAIV might have been a poor example for the point I wanted to make, since it integrates storytelling with gameplay much better than most games. Cruising down Star Junction with Little Jacob certainly feels authentic. Not gamelike or "fake" at any rate.

 

[Campster]

For a high score? Some genres in gaming are devoid of story (or are completely pointless) and involve killing; the best of breed also give an emotional adrenaline rush: 2D Shoot-em-ups...

Honestly, most games with stories give you little to nothing in the way of motivation. When they do, it's always either "You'll die if you don't!" or some sort of superhero-origin-story style motivation - "They killed your parents/kidnapped your girlfriend/killed your girlfriend/are destroying the city and generally being bad! Only you can stop them!"

 

[GhaleonQ]

Bioshock is a horrible example of narrative in games. Bioshock the narrative is a story of Rapture's rise and fall; the story of a city built on dreams only to rot from within; the story of a conflict between ideals and reality. Bioshock the game is about killing some ugly spliced up dudes with big machine guns and plasmids. The two barely intersect, and when they do it's entirely out of your control.

An alarming number of games use this formula. Half-Life 2 the narrative is about science gone too far, about alien invaders taking over and oppressing all of man-kind. Half-Life 2 the game is about killing a buttload of aliens between you and your goal. Max Payne the narrative is one cop's quest for revenge after a greedy drug corporation killed his family. Max Payne the game is about shooting a bunch of guys wearing leather in slow motion. You get the picture. You can't have zero intersection between your game and your narrative; otherwise your game isn't about what your story tries to pretend it's about, it's about killing dudes.

Summary: ICO ICO ICO ICO ICO ICO ICO ICO ICO

This whole thread was actually a litmus test for an editorial I'm writing, and has allowed me to organize my thoughts better, and see which phrases I should re-word so they don't lead to misinterpretation, debate of the merits of MGS's story, and childish personal attacks. (the latter is unavoidable)

In that case, you might want to change your approach. Suggest approaches to Half-Life 2 that would have fulfilled your criteria. Then, it's a failure on the part of the developers to be imaginative, not a fundamental failure. Right now, your criticisms make it seem like that sort of game shouldn't exist, because it can't meet your preferences. Prove how they fell short, but had a lot of redeeming idea.

And yes, I do have an example -- or rather, a general logical problem. Interactivity gives the player control over the characters actions and behaviors. Any time you give the player control over the character, that means, logically, that the director/developer does not have control. Any time the developer/director decides what a character is or how he behaves, that means the player is not deciding those things (and therefore those portions are not interactive).

I'm among those who don't think that the rules for games are that different from intaking other art. When I look at the Hagia Sophia, there's no "starting point." When I look at "The Last Supper," I naturally or purposefully pick what I want to focus on, when I want. I can anticipate and focus on an oboe line in the Brandburg Concertos (or, if that level of interactivity still doesn't satisfy you, one could improvise or emphasize different things when performing what is still the same piano concerto), and so on. The choices in gaming aren't limitless. The designers conceive of abilities that they give you in their world and then run you through their planned stages and predetermined outcomes. Games just utilize the sense of touch instead of others.

 

[Monocle]

Bioshock is a horrible example of narrative in games. Bioshock the narrative is a story of Rapture's rise and fall; the story of a city built on dreams only to rot from within; the story of a conflict between ideals and reality. Bioshock the game is about killing some ugly spliced up dudes with big machine guns and plasmids. The two barely intersect, and when they do it's entirely out of your control.

An alarming number of games use this formula. Half-Life 2 the narrative is about science gone too far, about alien invaders taking over and oppressing all of man-kind. Half-Life 2 the game is about killing a buttload of aliens between you and your goal. Max Payne the narrative is one cop's quest for revenge after a greedy drug corporation killed his family. Max Payne the game is about shooting a bunch of guys wearing leather in slow motion. You get the picture. You can't have zero intersection between your game and your narrative; otherwise your game isn't about what your story tries to pretend it's about, it's about killing dudes.

As I said, video games are a young medium. It's only natural that even the best it has to offer show a lot of wasted potential. Your attitude is precisely what more game developers need to adopt in order to motivate themselves to improve their craft. How else will narrative games consistently rival or surpass film within the next decade?

 

[JayDub]

You're a high-browed moron. It's because many people would consider it cool as fuck and that emo high kid demographic is one of the ones they're targeting. You're inability to comprehend the purpose of a cutscene doesn't render it "amateur" if you did your research you'd know the action director is the same that directed the film Versus. Which essentially consists of cheesy dialogue, wooden/over the top acting and retard fuck awesome action sequence action sequence. What you need to understand is some people like that shit, and just because you don't it doesn't make you smarter than them or holding a better taste than them because in art everything's subjective.

Let me throw you a chill pill, bitch. There, better? Sorry if I hurt your feelings there.

Im not doubting the demographic its for, and even if I DID know who directed "Versus" my opinion would still stand. Hey, we all know the demographic Jean Claude movies are made for, but does that make them good, or even "cool as fuck"?

Cool as fuck...lol.

 

[Monocle]

Let me throw you a chill pill, bitch. There, better? Sorry if I hurt your feelings there.

Im not doubting the demographic its for, and even if I DID know who directed "Versus" my opinion would still stand. Hey, we all know the demographic Jean Claude movies are made for, but does that make them good, or even "cool as fuck"?

Cool as fuck...lol.

Spirit of Jazz has a point, you know. DMC is cut from the same stylish-beyond-ridiculous cloth as Versus. That's kind of its whole deal.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Fine, as long as it's not stated as fact.

I am stating it as fact! Go watch a movie!

 

[elcapitan]

Games are trying to be movies, but its just a transitional phase until some discovers a great way to tell stories in games that can be applied across all genres. Some like to take the movie approach, some take the scripted events approach. Movies started out as imitations of plays. Games will find their voice soon. At the moment, I welcome the focus on narrative and compelling storylines in games. Makes them more memorable.

 

[JayDub]

Spirit of Jazz has a point, you know. DMC is cut from the same stylish-beyond-ridiculous cloth as Versus. That's kind of its whole deal.

Right, Im not saying it wasnt intended to be that way. Im saying its crap. At least in my opinion. Makes me roll my eyes when I watched the cut scenes. I find it funny that theres a demographic for cheesy. To laugh at? Sure. But to actually see the story take itself somewhat seriously makes me turn the game off.

My opinion, and I dont think its that far out. He openly admits it cheesy, and I said I didnt like the cheesiness. Whats there to argue?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Let me throw you a chill pill, bitch. There, better? Sorry if I hurt your feelings there.

Im not doubting the demographic its for, and even if I DID know who directed "Versus" my opinion would still stand. Hey, we all know the demographic Jean Claude movies are made for, but does that make them good, or even "cool as fuck"?

Cool as fuck...lol.

Jesus Christ your pretentious ignorance is crippling (Including you trying to take the piss out of "cool as fuck", I typed it based on context). Lets have a hypothetical situation here:

You and another man are the last two being alive on the planet, the environment is barren bar a TV, a VCR and two tapes; one of them in Apocalypse now, the other is Bloodspot. You enjoy the former more, he enjoys the latter, you argue which is better and can't convince each other. He gives up on the debate understanding that the movie' are targeting different people hence they are "good" in the eyes of the one they're targeted at but are "bad" to the other seeing as they were never made to appeal to what they like. You however harper on about a more complex narrative and superior cinematography, he tries to explain that he has no interest in those things and only cares about seeing people get kicked in the face however you'll have none of it and eventually kill him in your rage, letter killing yourself due to your solitude.

See who wins because of your viewpoint? Nobody. You need to understand all art is subjective, just because it's not meant to appeal to you doesn't mean it's universally bad, as long as one person understands it and appreciate it, it's good.

 

[JayDub]

Jesus Christ your pretentious stupidity is crippling. Lets have a hypothetical situation here:

You and another man are the last two being alive on the planet, the environment is barren bar a TV, a VCR and two tapes; one of them in Apocalypse now, the other is Bloodspot. You enjoy the former more, he enjoys the latter, you argue which is better and can't convince each other. He gives up on the debate understanding that the movie' are targeting different people hence they are "good" in the eyes of the one they're targeted at but are "bad" to the other seeing as they were never made to appeal to what they like. You however harper on about a more complex narrative and superior cinematography, he tries to explain that he has no interest in those things and only cares about seeing people get kicked in the face however you'll have none of it and eventually kill him in your rage, letter killing yourself due to your solitude.

See who wins because of your viewpoint? Nobody. You need to understand all art is subjective, just because it's not meant to appeal to you doesn't mean it's universally bad, as long as one person understands it and appreciate it, it's good.

Right, Im not saying it wasnt intended to be that way. Im saying its crap. At least in my opinion. Makes me roll my eyes when I watched the cut scenes. I find it funny that theres a demographic for cheesy. To laugh at? Sure. But to actually see the story take itself somewhat seriously makes me turn the game off.

My opinion, and I dont think its that far out. He openly admits it cheesy, and I said I didnt like the cheesiness. Whats there to argue?

Holy shit, DMC defense force FTL. Next time you start a reply with an insult, dont expect that person to read your valid viewpoints. Dick.

"High brow moron"?
"Pretentious stupidity is crippling" ?

And you say IM pretentious?:lol

 

[Sibylus]

I like cutscenes, I love integrated narrative.

Spoiler

Shamelessly lifted a Levine term there ololol

 

[Dragon]

ain't nothin wrong with that

There's a lot wrong with that. Mostly because Ellen Page is the fucking shit.

 

[bigGIRLSblouse]

A few things wrong:

1. Making fun of Juno
2. Thinking your opinion is an absolute fact
3. Making fun of Juno

Ellen Page is so going to fuck you up.

Easily the most correct post I've seen all day on Gaf. She should fuck the OP up.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Holy shit, DMC defense force FTL. Next time you start a reply with an insult, dont expect that person to read your valid viewpoints. Dick.

"High brow moron"?
"Pretentious stupidity is crippling" ?

And you say IM pretentious?:lol

It's in internet forum expect people to insult you no matter if it's subtle or not. Also you can't have your cake and eat it, it's bullshit when you say "He openly admits it cheesy, and I said I didnt like the cheesiness." Whats there to argue is that you're also saying the medium should be devolved solely according to your own tastes and that's the only way forwards when games like MGS, DMC and NG obviously aren't even targeted at you.

 

[ghibli99]

Wow, lots of Juno hate in here.

 

[j^aws]

Honestly, most games with stories give you little to nothing in the way of motivation. When they do, it's always either "You'll die if you don't!" or some sort of superhero-origin-story style motivation - "They killed your parents/kidnapped your girlfriend/killed your girlfriend/are destroying the city and generally being bad! Only you can stop them!"

Also, sadly, even score based games often get misinterpreted for story as motivation (nothing inherently wrong with this, if the incentive gets you to play the game); but the usual complaint is that those games are too short! ... *Stop credit-feeding*!

Pro-tip: If your score ends in a non-zero; the last digit(s) usually indicate the number of credits used, and not a 'proper' score...

 

[BobsRevenge]

Bioshock is a horrible example of narrative in games. Bioshock the narrative is a story of Rapture's rise and fall; the story of a city built on dreams only to rot from within; the story of a conflict between ideals and reality. Bioshock the game is about killing some ugly spliced up dudes with big machine guns and plasmids. The two barely intersect, and when they do it's entirely out of your control.

An alarming number of games use this formula. Half-Life 2 the narrative is about science gone too far, about alien invaders taking over and oppressing all of man-kind. Half-Life 2 the game is about killing a buttload of aliens between you and your goal. Max Payne the narrative is one cop's quest for revenge after a greedy drug corporation killed his family. Max Payne the game is about shooting a bunch of guys wearing leather in slow motion. You get the picture. You can't have zero intersection between your game and your narrative; otherwise your game isn't about what your story tries to pretend it's about, it's about killing dudes.

UGH

NO



Dude. Bioshock immerses you in a world and lets you unfold the story. There happens to be splicers that want to kill you. That's part of the story, but only part of it. There's lots of exploration and lots of audiologs to get story from. Its very well told and maintains very fun gameplay throughout most of it.

Max Payne's story is one of mass bloodshed to get back at the people who took away everything from him. Its a revenge story and its a bloody one. Each man you kill brings you closer to your goal and the story pushes you just as much as the gameplay... or at least it did for me. That applies to both of them btw. The game's story is killing and revenge is the motive. Same applies to the gameplay, and its unified.

HL2's story isn't well integrated into the gameplay because it is pretty disconnected. There is a story there but its more of an excuse to put you into some gameplay than something that pushes you. Its like Mario except with a ton more thought put into it.

I really think you missed the mark on all of those except HL2. Bioshock's story was absolutely integral to the experience and was integrated throughout. Max Payne's pushes you to play in long sessions just to see what the game has in store for you as a narrative. I beat Max Payne 2 in one sitting. One. Because of the story.


You could say that shit about any game btw. Shadow of the Colossus has a narrative where you have to save your chick from death and you end up

Spoiler

becoming a monster because of it

. The game is about running around and jumping onto big dudes so you can jam a sword into their blue spot.

GTA4 has a rags to riches narrative where Nico finds himself knee deep in crime to take revenge on people who wronged him in the past. GTA4 the game is about going on somewhat repetative missions where you usually end up killing someone. Other times you'll drive your car somewhere.

Just because you can disconnect the two in this way to create the perception that the story doesn't impact the gameplay doesn't mean its true. I hope you didn't influence too many peoples' opinions because that shit is pretty dumb.

 

[jetjevons]

Wow, lots of Juno hate in here.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/juno/ 93% Fresh

http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/juno?q=juno 81

Anyone can hate any movie. Taste is subjective. IMO, if you take your Rotten Tomatoes fresh rating and your Metacritic % and they both average over 80 than I feel pretty confident telling a hater to STFU.

 

[Version 3.0]

It's true. Games aren't movies.

Also, for the record, rocks aren't people.

There's nothing wrong with a good narrative and some cutscenes. Like anything, though, you can go too far. I think most games are getting it about right these days: RE4 is a great example of "just right".

 

[GalacticAE]

It's true. Games aren't movies.

Also, for the record, rocks aren't people.

Tell that to Marvel comics, sir.

Blurring the line between rock and man was unprecedented.

 

[eve241]

I think story is, or at least should be. a very important element in games. I don't think there is necessarily a "the best way to tell a story in a game".

I think every form is valid whether 100% interactive or 50% interactive.

Telling a story though requires some sort of linearity so I don't think "giving the player a choice" at all times makes for a better experience.

 

[Campster]

UGH

NO



Dude. Bioshock immerses you in a world and lets you unfold the story. There happens to be splicers that want to kill you. That's part of the story, but only part of it. There's lots of exploration and lots of audiologs to get story from. Its very well told and maintains very fun gameplay throughout most of it.

Max Payne's story is one of mass bloodshed to get back at the people who took away everything from him. Its a revenge story and its a bloody one. Each man you kill brings you closer to your goal and the story pushes you just as much as the gameplay... or at least it did for me. That applies to both of them btw. The game's story is killing and revenge is the motive. Same applies to the gameplay, and its unified.

HL2's story isn't well integrated into the gameplay because it is pretty disconnected. There is a story there but its more of an excuse to put you into some gameplay than something that pushes you. Its like Mario except with a ton more thought put into it.

I really think you missed the mark on all of those except HL2. Bioshock's story was absolutely integral to the experience and was integrated throughout. Max Payne's pushes you to play in long sessions just to see what the game has in store for you as a narrative. I beat Max Payne 2 in one sitting. One. Because of the story.


You could say that shit about any game btw. Shadow of the Colossus has a narrative where you have to save your chick from death and you end up

Spoiler

becoming a monster because of it

. The game is about running around and jumping onto big dudes so you can jam a sword into their blue spot.

GTA4 has a rags to riches narrative where Nico finds himself knee deep in crime to take revenge on people who wronged him in the past. GTA4 the game is about going on somewhat repetative missions where you usually end up killing someone. Other times you'll drive your car somewhere.

Just because you can disconnect the two in this way to create the perception that the story doesn't impact the gameplay doesn't mean its true. I hope you didn't influence too many peoples' opinions because that shit is pretty dumb.

It's not that story doesn't impact gameplay, it's that the story being told and the gameplay are fundamentally two different things. This is different than, say, a World War 2 FPS where the story (a guy going to war and shooting dudes) is the same thing as the game (a guy going to war and shooting dudes). It's also different than a lot of western RPGs or Deus Ex, where the player is driving the narrative along in at least some fashion. But the interesting and meaningful part of Bioshock's narrative (read: Everything that happens pre-Jack) has absolutely nothing to do with the game.

By Bioshock's logic I could have a game based on Hamlet as long as the player is playing Diablo and killing ghosts and pirates and stuff in between unlocking story segments explaining why Ophelia killed herself. Sure, I have an awesome story, and sure, I have an awesome game. But when the divide is that strong between it really underscores this conflict of interest between telling me this awesome story or letting me play this awesome game.

 

[pieyow]

Sort of related top the topic, the link below talks about game design and a common misnomer about gameplay/storytelling. Reinforces the point of the OT I think.


http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/536/three_novice_mistakes_in_game_.php?page=2

 

[Sibylus]

HL2's story isn't well integrated into the gameplay because it is pretty disconnected. There is a story there but its more of an excuse to put you into some gameplay than something that pushes you. Its like Mario except with a ton more thought put into it.

Eh, I wouldn't really say that. Disconnected from the grand overarching storyline, maybe, but the story progression in HL2 and the Episodes doesn't feel disjointed at all. You get a real grasp on the physical distance between locations and the small world you're confined in feels fleshed out. I don't know about you, but every twist in the proceedings had very real impacts on my play time (ie teleporter malfunctions and then all of a sudden you're expected to make your way to this place on foot and by vehicle. The consequences of the event shaped the playthrough in a very visceral way).

 

[BobsRevenge]

It's not that story doesn't impact gameplay, it's that the story being told and the gameplay are fundamentally two different things. This is different than, say, a World War 2 FPS where the story (a guy going to war and shooting dudes) is the same thing as the game (a guy going to war and shooting dudes). It's also different than a lot of western RPGs or Deus Ex, where the player is driving the narrative along in at least some fashion. But the interesting and meaningful part of Bioshock's narrative (read: Everything that happens pre-Jack) has absolutely nothing to do with the game.

By Bioshock's logic I could have a game based on Hamlet as long as the player is playing Diablo and killing ghosts and pirates and stuff in between unlocking story segments explaining why Ophelia killed herself. Sure, I have an awesome story, and sure, I have an awesome game. But when the divide is that strong between it really underscores this conflict of interest between telling me this awesome story or letting me play this awesome game.

I really strongly disagree with your stance on Bioshock. Bioshock's story informs every piece of it. Everything. You are immersed in the world that has gone completely insane. The story of Bioshock is one man's story, nothing more. Its about a single man making his way through a world and trying to escape. He finds himself really deep in

Spoiler

another man's plot

. The main storytelling instruments are the audiologs and the communications via radio with Atlus or whatever.

If Hamlet played like Bioshock it'd be a really boring game. I guess you'd walk around exploring the castle and then every now and again someone will radio you or you'd find an audiolog about Ophelia and later in the game a ghost might speak to you. Eventually the game takes away your control to kill Polonius. Then you go on all pissed off at Claudius (moreso than before) and when you get to him he's all pumped up on some jungle mushroom and you have to incapacitate him a few times with some stabs. Each time you incapacitate him you get to pour poison in his ear. Do this until he dies. Depending on if you killed or let Laertes live you get a good or a bad ending. Let him live and you get to die and name Fortinbras your heir. If you killed Laertes you live on to go fuck-nut crazy and you annihilate Fortinbras's army and go on to take over the world and become an evil dictator of the lands.

 

[plovie]

I think it's interesting that people keep pointing out how immersive and interactive games are as alleged evidence of their narrative potential. This wrongly assumes, I think, that one is being immersed in or is interacting with a story, when really one is actually interacting with/being immersed in a virtual world.

 

[dead souls]

There's nothing wrong with a good narrative and some cutscenes. Like anything, though, you can go too far. I think most games are getting it about right these days: RE4 is a great example of "just right".

I'd agree that nothing is wrong with a good narrative.

How does that apply to the majority of games being produced today?

Resident Evil 4?
Give me a break. It's a phenomenal game with a lame narrative and lousy cutscenes.

 

[HokieJoe]

I generally regard cut scenes as one of the shittiest parts of any game. After you've seen them once, their usefulness as a way to advance the game (and enhance gameplay) is completely gone.

If the gameplay sucks, cut scenes won't save a game from mediocrity. If the cut scenes suck, but the gameplay is great, you can still have a good/great game.

 

[Vaxadrin]

I'd agree that nothing is wrong with a good narrative.

How does that apply to the majority of games being produced today?

Resident Evil 4?
Give me a break. It's a phenomenal game with a lame narrative and lousy cutscenes.

No way I cried when Mike died.

 

[GeneralIroh]

Very interesting ideas & universe, but told with very campy, poorly written dialogue. My interest in Halo is in it's perfectly balanced shoot-grenade-melee combat, and absolutely unparalleled AI. I always skip the cutscenes in repeat playthroughs. To me, observing the way an environment changes when the flood infest it is a much cooler & informative experience than having Cortana say "...and this is what a flood does when it finds a host".

Unfortunately the flood ruined the game's pacing. How tedious can a game get? They're pretty much just a generic mass of walking bullet sponges with downgraded AI. Halo 1 would've been better if the later half of the game had more covenant as the enemy.

 

[Version 3.0]

I'd agree that nothing is wrong with a good narrative.

How does that apply to the majority of games being produced today?

Resident Evil 4?
Give me a break. It's a phenomenal game with a lame narrative and lousy cutscenes.

It was magnificent. We were gripped by the epic story, identified with the characters, laughed, cried, whatever...and got back to the game.

...just kidding. I was referring to length and intrusiveness. Keep 'em fairly short and play them just enough to move the story along.

Blurring the line between rock and man was unprecedented.

:lol

 

[Firestorm]

Two games that told a story in a way that would be impossible in ANY OTHER medium:
- Metroid Prime (2002)
- Bioshock (2007)

You, the player, interacted with the world and discovered the background behind the world you were exploring yourself. You put together bits and pieces from what you discovered and it told a tale. If you really wanted to, you didn't have to pay attention to the story at all (don't read any pirate logs/chozo lore or don't listen to any audiologs).

 

[legend166]

Another awesome thing about Metroid Prime was that if you didn't care about the story, you could completely ignore it. That's why I love the game so much.

 

[No_Style]

Two games that told a story in a way that would be impossible in ANY OTHER medium:
- Metroid Prime (2002)
- Bioshock (2007)

You, the player, interacted with the world and discovered the background behind the world you were exploring yourself. You put together bits and pieces from what you discovered and it told a tale. If you really wanted to, you didn't have to pay attention to the story at all (don't read any pirate logs/chozo lore or don't listen to any audiologs).

Unfortunately, the method of obtaining the story elements was a bit tedious. Scouring levels for story bits isn't ideal either since I could be missing a fair bit of it. They should make it more apparent and not tucked away in a corner somewhere.

Mass Effect's method for delivering extraneous backstory was a good, but not perfect. I liked how a lot of the extra content was given to you through regular interactions with characters. It was like the devs were saying: "Oh, BTW, if you want to know more about what they were talking about, check the Codex".

Now if only BioWare dubbed all that text and allowed the player to walk and listen -- it'd be perfect!

 

[Campster]

Two games that told a story in a way that would be impossible in ANY OTHER medium:
- Metroid Prime (2002)
- Bioshock (2007)

You, the player, interacted with the world and discovered the background behind the world you were exploring yourself. You put together bits and pieces from what you discovered and it told a tale. If you really wanted to, you didn't have to pay attention to the story at all (don't read any pirate logs/chozo lore or don't listen to any audiologs).

I could tear a book apart and hide the pages around your room.

 

[Brashnir]

Do you feel the same way about music in games? Just because there is another art form that uses it, doesn't make it meaningless in games. It's the same way with story/narrative.

I know this is from way back on page 1, but I just can't let it go without response.

The difference with music in games is that I have never once had a game stop being a game so that it could play me some music instead. If I was playng GTA, and the car stopped working and wouldn't let me out so that the game's director could force me to listen to some shitty song for 10 minutes, I'd be pissed off. Just like it pisses me off when a game makes me watch some shitty 20 minute cutscene. I'm not in the camp that thinks all cutscenes are bad, but there's a lot of games that put far too much emphasis on them, when the same story elements could be included without wrestling control from the player just to present them.

 

[jonabbey]

This thread ---> I love GAF so much.

Where else do you get this?

 

[Campster]

This thread ---> I love GAF so much.

Where else do you get this?

Hang around academics and game designers more, I guess. The whole narratology/ludology thing is sort of old hat, really.

 

[plovie]

Two games that told a story in a way that would be impossible in ANY OTHER medium:
- Metroid Prime (2002)
- Bioshock (2007)

You, the player, interacted with the world and discovered the background behind the world you were exploring yourself. You put together bits and pieces from what you discovered and it told a tale. If you really wanted to, you didn't have to pay attention to the story at all (don't read any pirate logs/chozo lore or don't listen to any audiologs).

See my above post. You're not interacting with the story; you're interacting with a virtual world. There's a distinction to be made here.

Certainly there are a number of games that let you change the course of the game by unlocking certain endings or whatever. But the moment control is given to the player over a story then it ceases to be a story and it becomes a game, like a choose-your-own-adventure book.

 

[derkm]

I disagree with the OP opinion of MGS series, i like it for its "cinematic" qualities as well as they was the story gets a little crazy.

I would have to agree with the points made on HL2 and GTA4 and especially with the opinion of Juno. After i watched Juno i felt like i just walked out of the champagne room; a whole lot of expectation but a huge let down at the end. I couldn't stand the one-liner dialog throughout the whole movie(apparently thats the only way juno could communicate), and the happy go lucky ending was terrible. Thats what happens when you get a writer that is a stripper with a blog named diablo. This movie got the Halo3/GTA4 10/10 treatment, hype is now better than content.

 

[Vaxadrin]

I think Halo 3 and GTA 4 are 10/10's, just not for their Oscar-worthy stories.

 

[Firestorm]

I could tear a book apart and hide the pages around your room.

And I could go and eat dinner now. What's your point?

Unfortunately, the method of obtaining the story elements was a bit tedious. Scouring levels for story bits isn't ideal either since I could be missing a fair bit of it. They should make it more apparent and not tucked away in a corner somewhere.

Mass Effect's method for delivering extraneous backstory was a good, but not perfect. I liked how a lot of the extra content was given to you through regular interactions with characters. It was like the devs were saying: "Oh, BTW, if you want to know more about what they were talking about, check the Codex".

Now if only BioWare dubbed all that text and allowed the player to walk and listen -- it'd be perfect!

Yeah, one of the issues I had with both games is I knew I was missing parts of it and I really wanted to digest all of it. I wish they had a feature where you could listen to all the logs and stuff you missed with the ones you already listened to/read highlighted. Haven't played Mass Effect yet. I'll start it soon.

See my above post. You're not interacting with the story; you're interacting with a virtual world. There's a distinction to be made here.

Certainly there are a number of games that let you change the course of the game by unlocking certain endings or whatever. But the moment control is given to the player over a story then it ceases to be a story and it becomes a game, like a choose-your-own-adventure book.

A story and a game do not have to be separate. The story is one aspect of the game. You're interacting with the virtual world so that more bits of the story are revealed to you. The more you interact, the more of the story you hear. As you hear more and more of the story, your understanding of the world you're exploring becomes more clear.

I don't necessarily dislike games like MGS where you sit through cutscenes. I find them fun too. However, I'd like to see more games like Metroid Prime and Bioshock as well.

 

[plovie]

A story and a game do not have to be separate. The story is one aspect of the game. You're interacting with the virtual world so that more bits of the story are revealed to you. The more you interact, the more of the story you hear. As you hear more and more of the story, your understanding of the world you're exploring becomes more clear.

Right, so the backstory sets up the action.

How bearing does the gameplay have on the story though?

 

[Firestorm]

Right, so the backstory sets up the action.

How bearing does the gameplay have on the story though?

It doesn't affect the story, it's just the way it's told. Movies, novels, games, comics, tv series... they all tell a story. They just tell it in different ways that plays to the strengths of the medium.

 

[dead souls]

It was magnificent. We were gripped by the epic story, identified with the characters, laughed, cried, whatever...and got back to the game.

...just kidding. I was referring to length and intrusiveness. Keep 'em fairly short and play them just enough to move the story along.

Oh. In that case, I'd agree. They were just about the right length.

Sorry for misinterpreting your point. I guess I've just read one to many posts from the crazies that think something like MGS has a great narrative.

 

[Allan Holdsworth]

If there's one thing I dislike about "modern gaming", it's cutscenes. I don't care about the stories in most games either, so please keep them to a bare minimum.
Then again, games are what the creators set them up to be. No need in limiting that.

 

[viewtiful_dru]

I have to wonder what element in MGS would prevent players from creating their own stories much in the same way that someone playing GTA could create a story like the OP's example. Sure, your tools to do so are more limited in MGS but that does not make it impossible.

There are numerous ways to tackle an area in MGS.

"He put on his crocodile disguise to elude the cameras, then tranquilized one of the patrol guards with his Mk22 pistol. Grabbing the dock, he slowly hoisted himself up to get a good view of the other guard. Once the guard had his back turned, he crept into the room containing the sniper rifle."

 

[Death_Born]

If there's one thing I dislike about "modern gaming", it's cutscenes. I don't care about the stories in most games either, so please keep them to a bare minimum.
Then again, games are what the creators set them up to be. No need in limiting that.

I like cutscenes - they give you a break from the action, sometimes they develop the plot and other times they let you have a better view of the world or characters that you wouldn't normally get. The only time I dislike cutscenes is when you know something ominous is going to happen and you want to get it over with already without building the suspense.

 

[Vaxadrin]

I have to wonder what element in MGS would prevent players from creating their own stories much in the same way that someone playing GTA could create a story like the OP's example. Sure, your tools to do so are more limited in MGS but that does not make it impossible.

There are numerous ways to tackle an area in MGS.

"He put on his crocodile disguise to elude the cameras, then tranquilized one of the patrol guards with his Mk22 pistol. Grabbing the dock, he slowly hoisted himself up to get a good view of the other guard. Once the guard had his back turned, he crept into the room containing the sniper rifle."

My story went more like this:

He dove into the grass to hide for a second. All he could see was grass, not only completely disorienting him, but also practically blinding him. He crawled to the edge of the grass to see what was going on. A guard spotted him. He tried to stand up to run away, but he only sat up to a crouch and began crawling again by accident. The guard opened fire on him and he died.