Yeah, I hadn't tried out the official Roland Sound Canvas VA they just released yet - it's really good.
Not only that, I can hook the VST straight into REAPER for recording. This plugin is awesome.
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Games that really shine with a MIDI sound module
- Thread starter Dio
- Start date
Yeah, I hadn't tried out the official Roland Sound Canvas VA they just released yet - it's really good.
Not only that, I can hook the VST straight into REAPER for recording. This plugin is awesome.
Worked like a charm. Thank you very much.
s_mirage
Member
If you want to cover all bases, you'll need two pieces of hardware: an 8820 or 8850 (their native sound maps have some significant differences, but not a lot was composed for them natively), and an SC-55 or SC-55 MK2. The reason for that is that while the later models do a reasonable job of emulating the SC-55, some instruments (such as strings) have considerable differences between the SC-55 and the SC-88 and later. This is true of the VSTi too; purists wanting SC-55 emulation could be disappointed.
I mentioned it in my opening post that IIRC there's actually a slight difference between the Mk2 and the original SC-55, and X68000s are only meant to use the original one - so if he cared about 'covering all bases' including that specific quirk he'd get both as well.
Of course, if you don't really care about that extremely specific thing, it doesn't really matter. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Cool thread, I have a couple of questions for you guys!
- how does the typical modern integrated soundcard fares against the Soundblaster, Gravis Ultrasound, etc.? As in, if I were to install MS-DOS on a modern computer would I have shit sound? I don't even know if drivers exist or how to use them.
- Let's say I want to experience MT-32 sound that was in so many games of the time and build a dedicated computer for it. Should I go for the original Roland MT-32 or are there other, more interesting models?
- how does the typical modern integrated soundcard fares against the Soundblaster, Gravis Ultrasound, etc.? As in, if I were to install MS-DOS on a modern computer would I have shit sound? I don't even know if drivers exist or how to use them.
- Let's say I want to experience MT-32 sound that was in so many games of the time and build a dedicated computer for it. Should I go for the original Roland MT-32 or are there other, more interesting models?
s_mirage
Member
There are a few differences between the original and MKII, so getting both would be ideal.
On reflection, getting every model is probably the best bet
I've ran into a number of issues that shouldn't exist on different units. For example, the Snatcher MIDIs from the first Midi Power Pro disk should work properly on an SC-8820, but they don't. For some reason they set up the instruments and effects using bulk dumps, which work on an SC-88 but not on an SC-8820 for reasons unknown to me. I had to create fixed files (or just play them back on my M-GS64).
SnR wasn't always great, they didn't support as high fidelity audio either. If you installed an actual version of DOS on a modern PC you'd have no sound at all though. Old DOS games simply won't know how to talk to your modern sound hardware, and I doubt there have been any Soundblaster emulators written for anywhere near modern hardware. Dosbox is likely a far better option.
The MT-32 has a bunch of variants which are listed on its Wikipedia page. The second MT-32 model is probably the one that I would go for due to it being quite common, but IIRC there were a few games that used sounds from the CM models (CM-32L, CM-64, CM-500, not CM-32P).
You'll have to excuse me since I'm not that experienced in this sort of thing, but I'll try.
There's not really any point in installing MS-DOS on a modern computer for sound purposes, as far as I know, because the OS refers to motherboard functions that no longer exist. What you want is DOSBox - and DOSBox has sound emulation built in that can be modified.
In fact, you can install MUNT, which almost perfectly recreates the sound of an MT-32, and run it through DOSBox and get basically the same effect.
So basically, you can either hook up a real MT-32 or MUNT to DOSBox games and it'll be fine.
As for various popular models of these sorts of sound modules:
The early SC-55 is most useful for stuff like the X68000, although the MT-32 works with it as well.
Quite a few Japanese titles afterwards during most of the 90s, however, used either the SC-88 or SC-88 Pro alongside the SC-55/SC-55 Mk II.
As for the MT-32 itself:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MT-32-compatible_computer_games
Optimally, if you want the entire span of history, you kinda need both an SC-55/SC-55mkII and an MT-32. Each module spans a different time period, and often are for different games entirely. If you just want an MT-32, there's nothin' wrong with that though. The SC-88/88Pro are more versatile than an SC-55, and somewhat 'emulate' the SC-55, their emulation isn't perfect.
As for others, there's stuff like the JV-1080, a super professional one that sounds like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtz2fZH5hw0
It really just depends what you're gonna use it for, I think.
Feel free to correct me on my mistakes, y'all.
I don't know what I want to do.
Couldn't I use this? http://list.driverguide.com/list/DOS/company1112/
Couldn't I use this? http://list.driverguide.com/list/DOS/company1112/
chaostrophy
Member
MIDI is still THE standard control interface for music composition and production, used by composers of music for games and everything else. Roland still updates their line of sound modules, the latest one came out in 2013, called the Integra-7. It's just that now that games can store and stream recorded audio, it's not necessary anymore for end users to have the MIDI hardware at home. A modern game composer could record with any of these modules and use the audio in game, just like the Youtube clips.
s_mirage
Member
As far as I can tell, VIA DOS drivers only provided support for certain old chipsets. You're going to run into other problems too if you use modern hardware: some games will not like modern processors and their speed, or modern RAM/hard drive capacity.
If you really want a dedicated DOS rig, you're better off going with retro parts.
If you really want a dedicated DOS rig, you're better off going with retro parts.
Yeah, this is basically how I understand it. IMO it's for the best to just run DOSbox with an external MIDI sound module if you want accuracy and if you want 'really really similar' you just emulate a sound module using MUNT or something and run that through DOSbox, but if you're freakishly dedicated you can go with a straight up retro computer and pretend you've traveled back in time.
s_mirage
Member
DOS wasn't much of an OS, not in the sense that Windows et al. are. Games were written closely to the metal for the hardware of the time. For example, Wing Commander 2 ran too fast on my Pentium 100 in 1996, Crusader: No Remorse stopped working when I had more than 32 MB RAM, Jungle Strike stopped working on my K6 200 and faster CPUs.
Games all had their own inbuilt sound drivers for contemporary sound hardware, and even graphics hardware in some cases. Games would either require new drivers (not going to happen), or emulation software to work with modern hardware. The Audigy was the last Creative card with official emulation software.
DOS has been dead in the gaming scene for nearly 20 years, and there simply hasn't been any demand for sound hardware manufacturers to retain hardware compatibility with obsolete standards, and the other problems that you will face are simply side effects of games not being written to take modern processing power, memory capacity, etc, into account.
Willy Beamish (map screen)
Adlib: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZzVA4sKE4c
Roland MT-32: https://youtu.be/OZzVA4sKE4c?t=89
I really considered buying an MT-32 for this game for use with DOSBox at one point.
Adlib: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZzVA4sKE4c
Roland MT-32: https://youtu.be/OZzVA4sKE4c?t=89
I really considered buying an MT-32 for this game for use with DOSBox at one point.
Fair enough. I'm just really not a fan of emulation, and IBM-PC DOS is the only system that I don't know how to deal with. Other 8bit and 16bit computers were kind enough to be packaged in all-in-one keyboard-computer setups, but IBM-PC were all in tower or desktop case with a massive footprint.
petran79
Banned
For the games that support it, better use ScummVM. It is much faster than DOSbox, since it is not an emulator but an interpreter. So games with MT-32 there use much less resources.
Even a high end PC will only match a Pentium1 100 Mhz on DOSbox.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
Getting the SC-VA to work best for me is how I recently started using REAPER in the first place!
The SC-88 MIDI files used for Ys I & II Eternal sound really good, definitely at the pinnacle of Falcom's MIDI experiments. SC-VA playback for these arrangements seems dead-on too.
Yes, I have more tolerance for ScummVM on a modern platform for some reason.
Yep, it's a bit annoying to have to buy a high-end PC to emulate a DOS machine, when in an ideal world a low-end cheap modern box would be perfect. But alas it cannot seem to be.
My other gripe with DOSBox is that it's not even a real emulator, with their designers refusing to implement any DOS function not used in a "game", excluding any non-gaming use of their software. It's a partial DOS emulator, not a PC emulator. Also its development seems a real mess. I'm looking into virtual environments and the PC emulator PCem, but they will need even more power I believe.
I did learn that I can use a real MIDI sound module on a PC with DOSBox, and that's still cool.
I initially did some research because the VSTi recommends using Cubase with it, but when I realized REAPER is a mere fraction of the size of Cubase (like 60mb as opposed to what, 4 GB these days) and has a much smaller footprint I tried using REAPER for it.
I actually have been using the program since before this, but never used MIDI stuff with it.
Maybe I'll do some experimenting myself. Some of the Falcom MIDIs I have vary in quality quite a bit, since I have quite a few, whether it be Legend of Heroes or Sorcerian.
EDIT: I actually have a question.
http://tk-nz.game.coocan.jp/ysmusic/cd/cd_sorcerian_smc.html
Listed here are all the 'modules' each MIDI is meant to be heard with. Would you say that some of these are meant to be listened to with a huge pro-level MIDI module, like a JV-1080, for the 'オリジナル完全再現版' versions, for example? Some of the tracks are clearly meant to be heard with an SC-88, or a Yamaha XG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_XG), but some are listed simply as '24音ポリ・フルアレンジ版'.
Paracelsus
Member
The best version of FFVII's Flowers Blooming in the Church is midi, so.
magicalsoundshower
Member
Argh, this thread really does drive home the point how shitty the "wavetable" sound card I used to own back in my DOS days was. It was made by "Terratec" and came with somewhat underwhelming-sounding MIDI support. Well, at least it did sound a lot better than AdLib or SoundBlaster sound in games such as System Shock.
MIDI emulation in DOS Box also seemed to be quite lackluster last time I played around with it, for some reason, it made Ultima Underworld's instrument sound super out of tune, no comparison to the soundtrack rip someone posted earlier.
MIDI emulation in DOS Box also seemed to be quite lackluster last time I played around with it, for some reason, it made Ultima Underworld's instrument sound super out of tune, no comparison to the soundtrack rip someone posted earlier.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
jdkluv uploaded Sorcerian MIDI Collection a while back and listed the 24-tone tracks as GM/GS-compliant. I don't know if that means they were designed with Roland Sound Canvas specifically in mind, but he's playing these back on something far better than Microsoft Wavetable GM Synth and these pieces sound great. (Looking at the page more, tk-nz recommends Roland GS playback for these tracks). The "Original Full-Reproduce" tracks probably sound best with MIDI gear utilizing extra sound channels, but REAPER can open up as many channels as it wants—only restriction is the SC-VA itself. (Or perhaps the webmaster's saying the reproductions, only available as MIDI files, are direct note-by-note transcriptions of the FM-synth originals, no arrangement done for each of them).
Did you buy the MIDI Collection files from Vector.jp or a similar store?
Well, the MIDI emulation doesn't actually need to be IN DOSBox, which is kinda the point of pipelining the MIDI data right out of DOSBox into something like munt that would emulate the sound. There's a nice guide for GOG games that use DOSBox and munt here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_5RWxHHVvE&feature=youtu.be
Ah, I see. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm actually talking with him right now about Ys IV MIDIs, he just let me know that the sound files with voice acting recorded over some of the ingame tracks like meeting Eldeel that one time in Dawn of Ys - which is why the dub uses the Perfect Collection version of that track.
The MIDI files I have come from Falcom's official CD releases where they dumped a bunch of MIDIs onto a CD along with other stuff. You know, like 'SC-88 MIDI Collection.' I have plenty of CDs lying about that I've imported.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
I'm just wondering if Falcom's currently including the MIDI files with any of the MIDI Collection releases they've put up on iTunes/Amazon.
I don't see why they would. If they refuse to release Monarch Monarch in anything other than MP3 on iTunes I don't know why they'd distribute MIDIs alongside them. I mean, I have the redbook audio now, but not because they made it easy for me.
Use munt with dosbox or
this build of dosbox where munt is built-in precompiled
http://ykhwong.x-y.net/
no need for a real MT32, since munt 1.5, they are basically indistinguishable.
Scummv also has built in munt (and also general midi) for supported games.
And also, for any dosbox build, you can install munt as a general mt32 device on windows and link it by mixer / listmidi function in dosbox, that is the best way to be uptodate.
Different goals.
ScummV is only using game assets and rethink how game logic is working. Dosbox is basically a virtual PC which runs the real executable.
Depending the situation, one can be better than the other (dosbox gives 100% emulation, whereas scummv cann even correct some bugs in the original program or be wrong).
Right and False. Official dosbox (0.74) is very much gaming oriented. New builds such as
http://dosbox-x.com/
are able to make Win 95-ME run completely.
it would be pretty neat if there were some indie/doujin devs that still composed oh GM/GS hardware and allowed the game to use the original sequencing data for people who have the hardware themselves or want to use soft synths. there wouldn't normally be much benefit to doing so, but if they started experimenting with dynamic transitions and layering like iMUSE i think it would be worth exploring.
holy crap, this is news to me. sounds like i'll finally get to replay interstate 76 in software without broken physics and ai!
holy crap, this is news to me. sounds like i'll finally get to replay interstate 76 in software without broken physics and ai!
s_mirage
Member
Just received the Akumajo Dracula MIDI Collection CD today. Good stuff, and I wish Konami's MIDI Power Pro discs had been authored like this: the CD contains EQed versions of the tracks as CD-Audio, as well as MIDI files for all of the tracks, artwork, and what looks like some 90s vintage Japanese playback/composition software.
I'll just point out that Dosbox-X is really slow as the dynamic core no longer works in it. I've had Windows 98 installed in the the last 2014 ykhwong release that is available from his site that was linked earlier. The more recent releases are based on newer versions of Dosbox-X but are more buggy.
I'll just point out that Dosbox-X is really slow as the dynamic core no longer works in it. I've had Windows 98 installed in the the last 2014 ykhwong release that is available from his site that was linked earlier. The more recent releases are based on newer versions of Dosbox-X but are more buggy.
I wanna know more about the original story myself. I don't read Japanese, but the original PC-88 version was unique in the era for having an in-depth story and dialogue alongside gameplay (which was far improved in the X68k version, but the story was stripped way the hell down.)
Dosbox is nice, but for W95 emulation, vmware player is free, and if you have a W9x disc, installation is fast and everything works. i keep 2 VM, one for W98 and one for XP. All dos games with Dosbox.
I wanna know more about the original story myself. I don't read Japanese, but the original PC-88 version was unique in the era for having an in-depth story and dialogue alongside gameplay (which was far improved in the X68k version, but the story was stripped way the hell down.)
Wow my monitor is going insane trying to display the colors in these images lol.
unfortunately using virtualization you don't have enough control over cpu speed making some games unplayable still, even if they technically work. dosbox emulates old cpus, giving you granular control over core type and clockspeed. virtual machines run on your computer's actual cpu, and there is no way you can make an i7 slow enough to run interstate 76 correctly in software
s_mirage
Member
unfortunately using virtualization you don't have enough control over cpu speed making some games unplayable still, even if they technically work. dosbox emulates old cpus, giving you granular control over core type and clockspeed. virtual machines run on your computer's actual cpu, and there is no way you can make an i7 slow enough to run interstate 76 correctly in software
Plus, VMWare doesn't offer directdraw acceleration for any OS older than XP. Some games simply won't work. And yes, speed can be a problem. For example, the PC version of Tetsujin 2 (old, Japan only port of a 3DO game) can be hacked to run in a modern version of Windows. However, the map doesn't work, it just automatically closes. The game must be coded in such a way that relies on the map taking a certain amount of time to load, which doesn't happen on modern PCs. This is where VMware fails too, because the CPU runs at near native speed. Works fine on Windows 98 in Dosbox.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
Reviving this discussion with some cool tech:
MIDI-PAC's a recent MSX peripheral that, with configuration, eats data played in-game via a connected MSX-MUSIC module (the FM-PAC cartridge, letting MSX developers write YM2413 FM-synth music for their games) and spits out MIDI messages you can use with sound modules. I don't know if you can use this via emulation with soundfonts or not, but listen to how it transforms Ashguine 2 (MSX2 action dungeon-crawler) into an experience that would make 1987 Sierra blush. The NEC, Fujitsu, and Sharp hobbyist scene in Japan should try something like this, assuming they're crazy enough to do things like getting the MSX to play Mega Drive music.
(Here's the FM-PAC + MSX-Audio arrangements Meits_ did for Ashguine 2, heard as MIDI in the video. And here's the PSG original for comparison, the same track which inspired Curse of IRON PIPE in La Mulana's OST.).
MIDI-PAC's a recent MSX peripheral that, with configuration, eats data played in-game via a connected MSX-MUSIC module (the FM-PAC cartridge, letting MSX developers write YM2413 FM-synth music for their games) and spits out MIDI messages you can use with sound modules. I don't know if you can use this via emulation with soundfonts or not, but listen to how it transforms Ashguine 2 (MSX2 action dungeon-crawler) into an experience that would make 1987 Sierra blush. The NEC, Fujitsu, and Sharp hobbyist scene in Japan should try something like this, assuming they're crazy enough to do things like getting the MSX to play Mega Drive music.
(Here's the FM-PAC + MSX-Audio arrangements Meits_ did for Ashguine 2, heard as MIDI in the video. And here's the PSG original for comparison, the same track which inspired Curse of IRON PIPE in La Mulana's OST.).
Elfforkusu
Member
Yamaha S-YXG50/100... then, now, forever.
Damn, noticed this was a bump and bummed I missed the original discussion. I somehow convinced my parents to buy a Roland SCC-1 sound card for me for over $400 in the early 1990s. Completely revolutionized my games, especially Ultima VII. (Although the sound effects sometimes ended up goofy if using solely the Roland.) Still have the card today installed in a P200 running DOS 6.22.
This is awesome! Thanks for the info. Good job on the Falcom Music Room release, by the way!
I don't know if you're aware, but there was an official Yamaha XG Synth VSTi released. If you'd like to know more about it, PM me. You can run it through your DAW of choice (like REAPER or Cubase) just like Roland's Sound Canvas VA and you can set it to either the 50 or 100. It was only ever packaged along with other software in the early 2000s. Basically, dragging and dropping a MIDI meant for the YXG50/100 into the DAW and turning on the VSTi.
Futaleufu
Member
I just completed Nam, using Sound Canvas VA for the music output. It turned a mediocre soundtrack (Sound Blaster) into an average one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ycalKy91o
Not Paint It Black.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ycalKy91o
Not Paint It Black.
Oracle Dragon
Member
I still have my SC-55 kicking around, purchased (second hand many years ago) pretty much just for Ultima 7.... glorious. Most games worked very well with it, although I never did manage to get my hands on an MT-32 . Still, this was well worth it, and I was happy to kick my AdLib to the curb
. Still, this was well worth it, and I was happy to kick my AdLib to the curb IamDodongo
Member
Thanks for making this topic.
This stuff is super interesting
EDIT: Oh, this thread is old af
This stuff is super interesting
EDIT: Oh, this thread is old af
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