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[Durante]

The soul payout per enemy is really unbalanced too, to the point where losing souls due to death is nothing but a minor annoyance.

I actually agree with this one. But as you say, it's not really a design decision but more of a balancing oversight. Still, good point.

Demon's Souls was my personal GOTY as well. Certainly not as technically polished as Uncharted 2 but it sucked me in harder and kept me enthralled for far longer than any other game has in a long time. Good call, Gamespot.

Yeah, few people like good graphics and technical polish more than I do, but I still hope we're not at the point where a game has to be amazing technically (as opposed to just competent) to be considered GotY.

 

[dezolis]

I was hoping it was Demon's Souls when I clicked on this thread. Wise choice, GameSpot, very wise choice.

I'm finding the complaints about the difficulty pretty laughable. I'm a decidely average gamer who never even bothers to attempt playing games on higher difficulties than default and I didn't find DS hard at all. It's probably the only game I will ever get a platinum trophy for. You just have to change your mindset (it's not a hack n' slash, your character is not a bullet sponge, lower level enemies are not cannon fodder) and have some patience. Strategy will get you through every enemy without a scratch.

It's the ultimate game of play smarter, not harder. That's one of the reasons why I love it so much.

 

[Clear]

Demon's Souls is great, and a deserving GOTY.

On one hand its pretty shameful that Sony elected not to publish the game outside of Japan, but its quite understandable given how unfashionable the notion of "game as challenge, not entertainment" has become.

And that's the key thing. Demon's Souls does not want to tell you a "cool" story, does not want to guide you through a range of pretty, wonderful environments, does not want to keep you happy with an endless stream of mindless risk-free busywork, and most of all does not want to hold your hand and tell you how to win.

Demon's Souls wants to you to feel intimidated, feel challenged by the task ahead of you. Because the designers at FROM remember that the degree of satisfaction you take from victory is reflective of the difficulty of achieving it.

Actions have severe and persistent consequences because they want you to treat the world they have designed with respect and care.

And this is absolutely crucial, because DS shows an uncommon degree of respect for the gamer, not just in the sense that if you want to cripple your options by killing useful NPCs it allows you to do so, but in how the whole "death" mechanism works:

When you die, and retrieve your souls, you have effectively "doubled-up" the stakes. You can bail-out and head back to the nexus at a cost of losing your progress, or you can press on at the risk of losing the souls you have accumulated thus far.

Risk/reward is in your hands. Its not making that decision for you. The game remains its stoic unyielding self and expects the player to adapt their approach to an acceptable level of danger.

And that guys, is a powerful, powerful tool.

Anyway, the key thing is this:

Despite the claims that Western games in recent years have pushed the envelope in allowing player expression/freedom, what has happened in the majority of cases is that developers and publishers have simply pandered to the audience's percieved laziness.

Offer an array of busywork tasks to keep idle hands occupied for a prescribed number of scenes/locations/hours = POPULAR WIN.

I'm not saying that's essentially wrong or ineffective, but it is formulaic and shallow. True freedom includes the freedom to fail, to feel overwhelmed and intimidated by the task at hand until you grasp and master the necessary tools for success.

For me, that understanding is the measure of the greatness of Demon's Souls, and why its a deserving GOTY.

 

[LittleTokyo]

As a clueless 360 only gamer, is there any chance this game is ever released on 360?

 

[BeeDog]

As a clueless 360 only gamer, is there any chance this game is ever released on 360?

Nope.

 

[astroturfing]

As a clueless 360 only gamer, is there any chance this game is ever released on 360?

probably not, it's not by just From Software, Sony's Japan Studios also worked on it from what i understand. (or at least published it).

also, the game kinda assumes that everyone has the abilitity to play online...

 

[Sanjuro]

Jeez, people are STILL talking about this game?! I've never even played it but defeating other games I haven't played but read about in Hype Magazine insults my intelligence.

 

[Haunted]

You can chose between co-op and PVP?

Only if you consider disconnecting from the internet to end an invasion a valid option.

As a clueless 360 only gamer, is there any chance this game is ever released on 360?

No.

So my viewpoint is, if you actually manage to push yourself through the complete and utter retardation that is MW on a high difficulty level, you'll also have the patience of beating Demon's Souls easily.

:lol fair enough.

 

[Manmademan]

probably not, it's not by just From Software, Sony's Japan Studios also worked on it from what i understand. (or at least published it).

also, the game kinda assumes that everyone has the abilitity to play online...

no it doesn't. I've played the vast majority of the game offline. Online has some perks (messages, seeing other players die of mysterious causes, co-op for certain bosses) but it's STILL a great game even offline.

There are plenty of black phantom NPC's to keep you on your toes even without the threat of being invaded, and if you're careful and observe your surroundings carefully, you really don't need the messages.

Only if you consider disconnecting from the internet to end an invasion a valid option.

if you don't want to be invaded, play in soul form.

 

[Haunted]

if you don't want to be invaded, play in soul form.

So to avoid PvP I have to swallow a health penalty? That's exactly what I mean when I talk about flawed game design.

But we've all gone over this a lot of times, I don't really want to repeat the discussion again here (more suited to the official thread anyway). Let's just agree to disagree about some of From's design decisions like Durante said.

 

[feel]

Ok internet, you win, I'm buying this game. Hope it's not too hard for me.

 

[Danielsan]

So to avoid PvP I have to swallow a health penalty? That's exactly what I mean when I talk about flawed game design.

But we've all gone over this a lot of times, I don't really want to repeat the discussion again here (more suited to the official thread anyway). Let's just agree to disagree about some of From's design decisions like Durante said.

It's not a health penalty.
The full health bar is a health perk. :lol

 

[vpance]

...

Perfectly put, agreed 100%!

So to avoid PvP I have to swallow a health penalty? That's exactly what I mean when I talk about flawed game design.

You lose health in soul form but you also do more damage. So it's not a completely one sided trade off. Oh and enemies are less aware of you since you don't make noise as a soul.

 

[Zeliard]

I think Demon's Souls difficulty has been overhyped. Harder than all this handholding developer breastfeeding this gen? Yes. But nowhere near as hard as some NES games (or any gens before this one for that matter). Ninja Gaiden 1 >>> Demon's Souls in difficulty. Any hurdle in Demon's Souls can be overcome by lvling up (like 99% of RPGs). It bothers me when I read opinions here of people that haven't picked this up b/c they're turned off by all the difficulty talk. Every PS3 owner that has a remote interest in RPGs or action games should play this.

And I forgot which review I read but some reviewer mentions "game gets more difficult every time you die" which is a gross exaggeration as they've left out the body form/soul form part of the equation. I could see that misunderstanding turning folks off as well as the pre-existing difficulty talk surrounding the game.

I posted earlier that the game's rep as very difficult comes not from how hard it actually is, but how unforgiving. It punishes lack of patience and lack of foresight much more than lack of skill.

 

[adamYUKI]

Demon's Souls is great, and a deserving GOTY.

On one hand its pretty shameful that Sony elected not to publish the game outside of Japan, but its quite understandable given how unfashionable the notion of "game as challenge, not entertainment" has become.

And that's the key thing. Demon's Souls does not want to tell you a "cool" story, does not want to guide you through a range of pretty, wonderful environments, does not want to keep you happy with an endless stream of mindless risk-free busywork, and most of all does not want to hold your hand and tell you how to win.

Demon's Souls wants to you to feel intimidated, feel challenged by the task ahead of you. Because the designers at FROM remember that the degree of satisfaction you take from victory is reflective of the difficulty of achieving it.

Actions have severe and persistent consequences because they want you to treat the world they have designed with respect and care.

And this is absolutely crucial, because DS shows an uncommon degree of respect for the gamer, not just in the sense that if you want to cripple your options by killing useful NPCs it allows you to do so, but in how the whole "death" mechanism works:

When you die, and retrieve your souls, you have effectively "doubled-up" the stakes. You can bail-out and head back to the nexus at a cost of losing your progress, or you can press on at the risk of losing the souls you have accumulated thus far.

Risk/reward is in your hands. Its not making that decision for you. The game remains its stoic unyielding self and expects the player to adapt their approach to an acceptable level of danger.

And that guys, is a powerful, powerful tool.

Anyway, the key thing is this:

Despite the claims that Western games in recent years have pushed the envelope in allowing player expression/freedom, what has happened in the majority of cases is that developers and publishers have simply pandered to the audience's percieved laziness.

Offer an array of busywork tasks to keep idle hands occupied for a prescribed number of scenes/locations/hours = POPULAR WIN.

I'm not saying that's essentially wrong or ineffective, but it is formulaic and shallow. True freedom includes the freedom to fail, to feel overwhelmed and intimidated by the task at hand until you grasp and master the necessary tools for success.

For me, that understanding is the measure of the greatness of Demon's Souls, and why its a deserving GOTY.

Wow. Nice post. I couldn't agree more!

 

[soldat7]

Wow, this is a really great article. I'm super glad Demon's Souls is getting the recognition it deserves. Bring on the sequel!

 

[Clear]

Thanks guys.
/bow

 

[Totobeni]

probably not, it's not by just From Software, Sony's Japan Studios also worked on it from what i understand. (or at least published it).

.

SCEI own the IP.

Wow, this is a really great article. I'm super glad Demon's Souls is getting the recognition it deserves. Bring on the sequel!

well we didn't heard anything at all from the team or Takeshi Kaji so that maybe not good ,but anyway if there is a sequel they need to make it fantasy Futuristic ( like in FF7/8/10/13 and most JRPG ) instead of medieval themed if they want to sell in Japan since ( I like medieval setting more but I think it was the problem for the Japanese gamers ).

 

[Novid]

Other games were fantastic at shit we have seen before, and accommodated themselves to all of Joe Gamer's needs. Joe Gamer was sitting in his room, playing some fucking shooter with some online shit in it where he sets the parameters of when and how he wants to play.

Demon's Souls kicked his damn door off the hinges, backhanded Joey and ejected the fuck out of that shit he was playing. Everytime Joe died Demon' Souls kicked him in the fucking balls and laughed at him as he cried about losing his progress then told him to get the fuck up and keep playing until he got all those souls back. Then Demon's Souls asked him if he wanted to play online and spit in his face before he could say no and a Black Phantom stabbed him in the back and kicked his ass off a fucking cliff. Then Joe Gamer told everyone he knew to buy Demon's Souls because it didn't treat him like a damn moron who started playing games 2 fucking days ago.

Perfect, Couldnt have said it better myself...

 

[Augemitbutter]

Wow, this is a really great article. I'm super glad Demon's Souls is getting the recognition it deserves. Bring on the sequel!

good stuff.

 

[chubigans]

I would have never known about this game had it not been for this thread/Gamespot's GOTY award. I'm going to buy it tomorrow. This sounds AWESOME.

 

[WanderingWind]

@Clear

If you don't work for From, then maybe you ought to think about it.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Hating on Demon's Souls is like hating on rabid cats.

 

[WanderingWind]

Hating on Demon's Souls is like hating on kittens. With eye lasers.

.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Is there any place I can import it from that doesn't overcharge ridiculously like most Ebay sellers? Any English version would be fine with me.

 

[Chuck Norris]

I would have never known about this game had it not been for this thread/Gamespot's GOTY award. I'm going to buy it tomorrow. This sounds AWESOME.

Really? There's a 25,000 post thread on it

 

[Cheech]

man if I wasn't such a pussy I'd so get this...

but alas I'm a pussy with an anger issue and I don't wanna start screaming at my tv because I suck. I said that I'd never let that happen again..so Ass Creed 2 or Batman it is.

I won't let you talk me into pain again Gaf....

Imagine an old school, 80s style AD&D Gold Box mated with Ninja Gaiden. If this sounds appealing, you will fucking LOVE Demon's Souls.

 

[Cheech]

Good for From Software. I'll have to disagree. Personally, I think UC2 did more in terms of tech, story telling, character development, level design, voice acting.

I'm guessing you also selected MGS4 as your GOTY.

Personally, if I placed such a high value on storytelling and character development, I would go watch a movie. That's not to say that there isn't a place for those things in gaming, but Demon's Souls isn't about those things.

It is about being absolutely alone inside a dream world that gives you the mechanics to reach out to other people, but not quite touch them. Demon's Souls re-invented the single player RPG experience, and I guarantee the online ideas of the game will be ripped off wholesale by RPG developers going forward.

Uncharted 2 was a good game, but massively overrated by virtue of the graphics and Hollywood-grade mocap. The scripted dialog was fucking awful, and the story was completely forgettable (the first one was better, IMO). The gameplay in the Uncharteds is far from special.

Finally, no, I would not recommend Demon's Souls to everybody. However, like many films that won Best Picture Academy Awards over the years, accessibility means jack shit.

 

[Darkpen]

Most excellent post, Clear.

 

[YoungHav]

^^ Microsoft is already "ripping off" Demon's Souls. XBL is going to get user created hint system ala the Demon's Souls messages.

:lol I love the Maiden in Black's hardcore Engrish. Speaking in Medieval tongue too. Everyone else speaks normal. Thou seeketh soul power dothst thou not? If they make a sequel they better not change her voice actress.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

The attempts at downplaying the game are getting more and more inane. First we hear that it doesn't have atmosphere, then about bland art or bad sound, and now that the single most innovative way to integrate online features into a single player game ever is nothing special. Everyone who played the game of course knows differently.

Seriously, the only valid complaint one can make is that the gameplay doesn't suit the ADHD generation, and that's not a reason to somehow disqualify it from GotY consideration.

oh come now, I did a much better job of articulating myself than just saying "the game isn't good to look at, lolll" over the next post or two.

 

[rainking187]

^^ Microsoft is already "ripping off" Demon's Souls. XBL is going to get user created hint system ala the Demon's Souls messages.

:lol I love the Maiden in Black's hardcore Engrish. Speaking in Medieval tongue too. Everyone else speaks normal. Thou seeketh soul power dothst thou not? If they make a sequel they better not change her voice actress.

One thing kind of bugs me about her, after you level up, "May thine strength help the world be mended" there's a pretty obvious pause while she's speaking, is she supposed to have a speech impediment?

 

[Raistlin]

probably not, it's not by just From Software, Sony's Japan Studios also worked on it from what i understand. (or at least published it).

They helped with the development and own the IP.

 

[Victrix]

I use DS to detect weak ass gamers. Or people with anger management problems.

Plus, once someone is indoctrinated into the cult, you get to exchange the secret across the room knowing glance and hand sign, before meeting in a corner to bump joysticks, ifn ya nah

 

[Minamu]

I can't say if it deserves GOTY, since I haven't played it yet. But if anyone's looking for a good site to import it from, www.axelmusic.com seems to have a good reputation online & just so happens to be the cheapest store I've seen as well. Ships from within EU so no taxes or VAT or anything, and the shipping cost was about the same as 2 McDonald's cheeseburgers.

 

[Shanlei91]

Demon's Souls is not only very fun but also provides and incredibly immerse experience.

Just last night, with a new character, I was attempting to get a sword from one of the worlds meant for higher level players. Tactfully I managed to beat all the enemies with the crappy equipment I got, finally getting the item. Each henchmen of an enemy felt like a boss fight with my character, it was absolutely exhilarating.

As I proceed to head towards the world's entrance to exit I get invaded by another player. He appears near the exit, decked out in gear that looked so ridiculous it had to be high-end. He proceeds to attack me, poisoning me, then proceeds to run around as I slowly die. While I chug health items to stay alive, I notice a sign on the floor allowing me to summon a random player to help. I do so, take a few steps back so that the invader closes in. The summoned player spawns right behind him, taking him out with a few hits. The summoned player bows, exits, and I proceed to head out of the world.

The entire experience was so unique and had my heart pumping the whole time - made me realize this game deserves GOTY.

 

[chubigans]

Really? There's a 25,000 post thread on it

Eh, I ignored it. Just thought it was another dense Japan RPG that I would never be able to get into.

Poured two hours in it yesterday...so far, wow, I think this is pretty darn awesome. Still learning the ropes though.

 

[TheMissingLink]

Demon's Souls is not only very fun but also provides and incredibly immerse experience.

Just last night, with a new character, I was attempting to get a sword from one of the worlds meant for higher level players. Tactfully I managed to beat all the enemies with the crappy equipment I got, finally getting the item. Each henchmen of an enemy felt like a boss fight with my character, it was absolutely exhilarating.

As I proceed to head towards the world's entrance to exit I get invaded by another player. He appears near the exit, decked out in gear that looked so ridiculous it had to be high-end. He proceeds to attack me, poisoning me, then proceeds to run around as I slowly die. While I chug health items to stay alive, I notice a sign on the floor allowing me to summon a random player to help. I do so, take a few steps back so that the invader closes in. The summoned player spawns right behind him, taking him out with a few hits. The summoned player bows, exits, and I proceed to head out of the world.

The entire experience was so unique and had my heart pumping the whole time - made me realize this game deserves GOTY.

Whoah, that is epic.

I wish I hadn't read about how challenging the game is. I'm only about 5 hours in (purchased the month it was out) and get so intimidated that I go SUPER SLOW and can't take more than like, 20 min a a time...

 

[ryan-ts]

Demon's Souls is great, and a deserving GOTY.

On one hand its pretty shameful that Sony elected not to publish the game outside of Japan, but its quite understandable given how unfashionable the notion of "game as challenge, not entertainment" has become.

And that's the key thing. Demon's Souls does not want to tell you a "cool" story, does not want to guide you through a range of pretty, wonderful environments, does not want to keep you happy with an endless stream of mindless risk-free busywork, and most of all does not want to hold your hand and tell you how to win.

Demon's Souls wants to you to feel intimidated, feel challenged by the task ahead of you. Because the designers at FROM remember that the degree of satisfaction you take from victory is reflective of the difficulty of achieving it.

Actions have severe and persistent consequences because they want you to treat the world they have designed with respect and care.

And this is absolutely crucial, because DS shows an uncommon degree of respect for the gamer, not just in the sense that if you want to cripple your options by killing useful NPCs it allows you to do so, but in how the whole "death" mechanism works:

When you die, and retrieve your souls, you have effectively "doubled-up" the stakes. You can bail-out and head back to the nexus at a cost of losing your progress, or you can press on at the risk of losing the souls you have accumulated thus far.

Risk/reward is in your hands. Its not making that decision for you. The game remains its stoic unyielding self and expects the player to adapt their approach to an acceptable level of danger.

And that guys, is a powerful, powerful tool.

Anyway, the key thing is this:

Despite the claims that Western games in recent years have pushed the envelope in allowing player expression/freedom, what has happened in the majority of cases is that developers and publishers have simply pandered to the audience's percieved laziness.

Offer an array of busywork tasks to keep idle hands occupied for a prescribed number of scenes/locations/hours = POPULAR WIN.

I'm not saying that's essentially wrong or ineffective, but it is formulaic and shallow. True freedom includes the freedom to fail, to feel overwhelmed and intimidated by the task at hand until you grasp and master the necessary tools for success.

For me, that understanding is the measure of the greatness of Demon's Souls, and why its a deserving GOTY.

What is wrong with you?

"It's a hard game but it's certainly beatable. You feel a sense of accomplishment when you win."

Thats all you needed to say.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

I'm guessing you also selected MGS4 as your GOTY.

Personally, if I placed such a high value on storytelling and character development, I would go watch a movie. That's not to say that there isn't a place for those things in gaming, but Demon's Souls isn't about those things.

It is about being absolutely alone inside a dream world that gives you the mechanics to reach out to other people, but not quite touch them. Demon's Souls re-invented the single player RPG experience, and I guarantee the online ideas of the game will be ripped off wholesale by RPG developers going forward.

Uncharted 2 was a good game, but massively overrated by virtue of the graphics and Hollywood-grade mocap. The scripted dialog was fucking awful, and the story was completely forgettable (the first one was better, IMO). The gameplay in the Uncharteds is far from special.

Finally, no, I would not recommend Demon's Souls to everybody. However, like many films that won Best Picture Academy Awards over the years, accessibility means jack shit.

jesus christ

 

[semiconscious]

I have a copy sitting on the shelf that I rage quit from out of a mix of frustration and boredom (I really need an interesting world to keep my playing games that punish me like that, and the DS world was totally uninteresting to me)...

yet here you are, still reading & posting on this thread, pages later? you found the actual game boring, but find reading about & commenting on it interesting?...

cuz by now it's starting to feel more like this game unexpectedly handed you your ass, you didn't know what to make of it, & kinda opted for 'boring'. & i strongly suggest you do yourself a favor, pick yourself up off the floor, steel your nerves, sharpen your skills, & give it another go - it's well worth the effort ...

 

[Deleted member 30609]

yet here you are, still reading & posting on this thread, pages later? you found the actual game boring, but find reading about & commenting on it interesting?...

cuz by now it's starting to feel more like this game unexpectedly handed you your ass, you didn't know what to make of it, & kinda opted for 'boring'. & i strongly suggest you do yourself a favor, pick yourself up off the floor, steel your nerves, sharpen your skills, & give it another go - it's well worth the effort ...

it's a cool game. I like reading about it and discussing it. playing it, not so much. I'm happy with my baby games for now.

edit: I will get back to it, some day.

 

[GeoramA]

jesus christ

I like how he passes it off like it's a well-known fact.

People and the dreamworlds they live in :lol

 

[gofreak]

Sorry to go OT but is it just me or has this nebulous concept of 'underlying gameplay' and 'concerns' about it become en vogue in trashing popular and/or critically well recieved games?

I've been flummoxed by it, but I've seen increasing references to vague and typically unsubstantiated problems with 'underlying gameplay'. Particularly, as I say, with well liked games and maybe also more particularly with good looking well liked games. It's like this thing people are just throwing out more and more, and it often seems a bit FUDdy to me.

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

Demon's Souls is probably the worst game in the world for me personally. I hate nearly all JRPGs, and one that is touted as extremely difficult appeals to me less than a shovelware Wii game.

But, with that said, it's really cool to see it win the award from such a big gaming site. Moreso than that - their whole list of nominees is quite diverse and selects a lot of titles that sites usually glance over.

I reckon Giant Bomb still do it the best, but Gamespot have definitely impressed me here.

 

[Snuggles]

It's a RPG made in Japan, but it's not at all a "JRPG" by genre.
Just for the record.

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

I'll happily admit I don't fully know what would make a game a proper JRPG and use it as a blanket term for RPGs that don't involve third person shooting mostly.

 

[semiconscious]

edit: I will get back to it, some day.

also thought you'd like this (from eurogamer's bayonetta review):

The best two Japanese action games of the year are diametrically opposed in approach. Demon's Souls is a brooding traipse through the corridors of purgatory, fair but relentlessly unforgiving. It teaches that modern videogames have made us weak and stupid, that our gaming muscles have atrophied through the efforts of so many mollycoddling developers. Every sword strike must be carefully considered, and button-mashers are not so much ridiculed as downright abused for their lack of sophistication. The result is a tense but ponderous experience, one that demands supreme trepidation before each step taken, careful contemplation before every input made.

In Bayonetta, meanwhile, you press a button and your television implodes...

 

[rainking187]

It's a RPG made in Japan, but it's not at all a "JRPG" by genre.
Just for the record.

A JRPG is an RPG made in Japan. If anyone is using the term differently they're doing it wrong.

 

[SonOfABeep]

lol wow - wasn't fishing for a tag, but I'll take it.

I'll give the game another shot after finishing Assassin's Creed 2. I'll try to like it, guys, I really will!

I never said it was bad, just very skeptical of a GOTY pick. Especially given the source. I respect/envy everyone in this thread who loves it so dearly. I'm gonna try to get on the positive side of the fence with this one. Wish me luck!