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[Lime]

They all get something for free, so Wario is pretty much spot on.

As far as sites with (some) journalistic integrity, there's

Eurogamer
Rock Paper Shotgun
The Penny Arcade Report
Kill Screen
Gamasutra

and while some might disagree for a couple good reasons, I'd also add EDGE, too.

Obviously none of them are perfect, but they're better than most of your alternatives.

Ben Kuchera works for Penny Arcade Report. While there might be the occasional quality article, his understanding of situations and critical assessment are too flawed and sometimes completely antithetical to that of critic/reviewer.

Eurogamer also has the occasional hick-up and the recent issue with Florence points towards the fact that they do buckle under publisher/PR pressure.

 

[Grayman]

I did not even notice RPS had ads getting through adblock until now. Good for them!

haha.

 

[krae_man]

EGM/1up struggled with this for a while. At least their editors didn't try to hide the fact that it was an issue.

Yeah,

Iirc they have/had a policy that said they could not accept gifts over $60. They gave away all the free 360's Microsoft gave away when the slim came out for example.

Now they probably have whatever IGN's policy is, and I'm not sure what that is.

 

[FO-totality]

Nintendo Power

Totally UNswayed

Oh sites...

The Escapist? Probably not.

 

[Fried Food]

you either have ads and/or get funding from some other source. Either way there are sources of potential [negative]influence in every game site/publication. I'm not the type of person to think less of a site/pub for being funded though, regardless of the source(as long as its legal).

 

[NintendoGal]

Nintendo Power

Totally UNswayed

When they still located in the Redmond NOA HQ, whenever I saw them, they were really serious about just playing X game and moving on. Now, that's not to say that the editors perhaps changed things around after reviews and pieces were done, but the people actually writing seemed "legit".

 

[Lime]

The Escapist? Probably not.

Did you read the Dragon Age 2 review?

 

[lockload]

I dont have an issue with sites getting review copies of games, especially if it means they get to review a more diverse set because they dont have to buy them all

 

[Sharp]

If you run a niche publication, and you are reliant on advertisements from the industry you cover to survive, it's pretty fucking hard to remain objective. If you're independently wealthy and have a large enough audience, you might be able to get away with it, I suppose. Not sure any sites out there fit that description, except maybe Penny Arcade.

 

[Lime]

If you run a niche publication, and you are reliant on advertisements from the industry you cover to survive, it's pretty fucking hard to remain objective. If you're independently wealthy and have a large enough audience, you might be able to get away with it, I suppose. Not sure any sites out there fit that description, except maybe Penny Arcade.

And even Penny Arcade are suspect in terms of their Expo's and getting publishers/developers to them.

 

[x3sphere]

Ben Kuchera works for Penny Arcade Report. While there might be the occasional quality article, his understanding of situations and critical assessment are too flawed and sometimes completely antithetical to that of critic/reviewer.

Eurogamer also has the occasional hick-up and the recent issue with Florence points towards the fact that they do buckle under publisher/PR pressure.

As I understand it, Eurogamer buckled on that particular issue because of the UK's libel laws, which are extremely strict. So don't see how it points towards that at all. Eurogamer is a business, it didn't want to risk what could lead to massive litigation costs.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Polygon*


*from $50 value up. lol, dat integrity.

You can get your dick sucked for less.

 

[Lime]

As I understand it, Eurogamer buckled on that particular issue because of the UK's libel laws, which are extremely strict. So don't see how it points towards that at all. Eurogamer is a business, it didn't want to risk what could lead to massive litigation costs.

True, the UK libel laws were in this case the major factor in their revision of the editorial. Nevertheless, it does point towards the fact that they are open to revising articles if financially pressured (like not getting an exclusive preview = lack of hits = lack of money).

 

[Lunar15]

If you run a niche publication, and you are reliant on advertisements from the industry you cover to survive, it's pretty fucking hard to remain objective. If you're independently wealthy and have a large enough audience, you might be able to get away with it, I suppose. Not sure any sites out there fit that description, except maybe Penny Arcade.

Trust me, I represent enough small sites to know that this isn't true. If anything, it's the bigger ones who are more likely to give in because they've got direct connections.

 

[Sharp]

Trust me, I represent enough small sites to know that this isn't true. If anything, it's the bigger ones who are more likely to give in because they've got direct connections.

So basically, they have no leverage over you because they aren't offering you anything anyway? Makes sense, but wouldn't that change the moment you got popular, and wouldn't it limit the type of the news you could report? Which is to say, you or I could probably be perfectly uninfluenced from publishers and just write reviews on a blog somewhere, but we wouldn't really be able to do any active reporting or do much of anything beyond rehash the stories of other news outlets.

 

[Ragingbegal]

The probably isn't industry ads, it's an overreliance on industry ads.
When a publisher has the power to effectively kill a website by pulling an ad if they don't get the coverage they want then that's an unhealthy business relationship.
Game sites simply need to do a better job at keeping advertising and editorial seperate and diversifying their advertising so as not to be put in such a position.

 

[Mindlog]

Would it even matter?
The second they rate "Ultra-Hype Game VII" anything less than a 10 the threads will still be filled with inane accusations and calls for the site to be banned.

 

[Wiktor]

You really can't have professional gaming website without gaming adds.
But just because you have then doesn't mean you are forced to alter your reviews.

 

[Lunar15]

So basically, they have no leverage over you because they aren't offering you anything anyway? Makes sense, but wouldn't that change the moment you got popular, and wouldn't it limit the type of the news you could report? Which is to say, you or I could probably be perfectly uninfluenced from publishers and just write reviews on a blog somewhere, but we wouldn't really be able to do any active reporting or do much of anything beyond rehash the stories of other news outlets.

No, because most smaller sites don't even get direct advertising from a company. They get it from an agency, and it's usually run on a rotational basis. It's also sold through a sales department who rarely ever works with the editorial staff at all. If a site is too small to have a sales team, it's probably running an ad network, which means they have no connection to any advertiser at all. I've never spoken to a single writer about any review content, and we've never had an ad pulled due to a bad review. Heck, I remember a time when I saw an ad for a game running alongside a negative review for that game. It's on a rotational basis, so you don't really know what's going to show up. I've even had full site takeovers come out for a day when a bad review went up and nothing happened.


Keep in mind though, the sites I work with aren't all that big, so who knows what the big guns do. I'm not here to make assumptions or spread rumors.

 

[x3sphere]

The probably isn't industry ads, it's an overreliance on industry ads.
When a publisher has the power to effectively kill a website by pulling an ad if they don't get the coverage they want then that's an unhealthy business relationship.
Game sites simply need to do a better job at keeping advertising and editorial seperate and diversifying their advertising so as not to be put in such a position.

Ok, and how do sites avoid that? They really can't.

Making direct deals with publishers is the only way most of the major sites can survive. The ad networks (like GAF and other mid to small sites use) pay like 3x less. So let's say a site making $200k a year would only make around $70k with AdSense or similar.

Also, the reliance on industry ads isn't limited to video games... happens in many other industries as well.

 

[Dany]

They travel and have access to games and events from PR. Also, they have ads.
But if you get to know them, you develop a trust that all of it doesn't matter.

I trust them. They went for so long without ads and tried to do everyhting so their wouldn't be any ads on the site but they had to bend the knee.

 

[Ragingbegal]

Ok, and how do sites avoid that? They really can't.

Making direct deals with publishers is the only way most of the major sites can survive. The ad networks (like GAF and other mid to small sites use) pay like 3x less. So let's say a site making $200k a year would only make around $70k with AdSense or similar.

Again, I'm not saying not to make advertising deals with publishers. Sites need ad revenue. I'm saying diversify your ad revenue so that you are not beholden to publishers alone to the point where they get editorial influence.
I'm not an ad guy so I don't know how the specifics of that works. But surely there are ways, and good ad reps should be able to find them.

 

[Dany]

Again, I'm not saying not to make advertising deals with publishers. Sites need ad revenue. I'm saying diversify your ad revenue so that you are not beholden to publishers alone to the point where they get editorial influence.
I'm not an ad guy so I don't know how the specifics of that works. But surely there are ways, and good ad reps should be able to find them.

The editorial team is separate from the finance/ad team. There is almost never any cross talk between the two. Gamespot and IGN podcasts that I listen too frequently mention that they don't even know what ads are running on the site.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

This is not really related but I really like how my local entertainment weekly magazine doesn't give a crap. It will feature movie A and its stars on the cover,along with interviews and an ad. And then proceed to give the movie 1/5 or 2/5 stars a few pages later lol...

It'll be nice in general to see more sites giving toned down scores for certain popular games.

 

[Dany]

This is not really related but I really like how my local entertainment weekly magazine doesn't give a crap. It will feature movie A and its stars on the cover,along with interviews and an ad. And then proceed to give the movie 1/5 or 2/5 stars a few pages later lol...

It'll be nice in general to see more sites giving toned down scores for certain popular games.

In general the 20 pt, review system is meaningless. 5 stars or bust.

 

[GillianSeed79]

I said this in the other thread, but I'll say it here again:

I can't speak for the big sites, but I work for a company that represents a bunch of smaller game sites and sells their advertising space. Not once in the time I've worked there has any of the paid advertising (even from video game companies) ever changed a word on a review or affected what a reviewer has said. I've never seen an advertiser pull dollars because of a bad review. Writers often have no idea what's even being advertised on the site.

Now, keep in mind, I work with smaller sites. I don't know how the IGN's and Gamespot's work, since they work directly with agencies.

That's my two cents on advertising though. The stuff like what Lauren Wainwright did, though? unacceptable. All the free gifts and parties are disgusting, and I personally don't agree with it.

To be fair to this guy I work for a newspaper. Advertising, circulation and editorial are three different departments. We don't even see the ad guys during the day nor what ads they've sold. The only time we deal with the ad department is when they fuck up when we are laying out the pages. For example, the election is coming up. For our election tab I had to explain to half the candidates that advertising and editorial were two different departments. I had to explain that they didn't have to pay to talk to me, I haven't seen the full page ad they paid for through advertising and they can't just re-send me the ad they sent to advertising.

Yes, I'm cognizant that ads are the shit that pay my salary. But really, we don't give two shits about ads. That's what the advertising department is for. I'm half inclined to install ad-blocker because anytime you pull up our site there's annoying video ads.

 

[Dictator93]

I like how you capitalized "game journalism sites" AND "video game" as if to suggest they really are important enough

Or english could be his second language and capitalization seems strange

 

[shira]

8-4?

 

[braves01]

8-4?

Not technically journalists. They localize.

 

[Htown]

They travel and have access to games and events from PR. Also, they have ads.
But if you get to know them, you develop a trust that all of it doesn't matter.

Yeah, you follow Giant Bomb long enough, you learn three important things:

1. The video and bombcast content is the real meat of the site.

2. You can pretty much trust that what they say is actually what they think.

3. They have terrible taste in games.

 

[lednerg]

This site has a group of unpaid volunteers who thoroughly digest practically every gaming topic imaginable. It's really good.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

This site has a group of unpaid volunteers who thoroughly digest practically every gaming topic imaginable. It's really good.

I wonder how many OT's of games were stealthily made by employee(s) of the game...

 

[Atomski]

http://thunderboltgames.com/ does not do any advertising. Most they ask is to use amazon links when you buy random stuff.

They do however get some games through PR and such.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Dumb on their part, it's a bonus for working a job that pays horribly yet benefits the companies greatly.

I had a buddy (CSB) that was a local film critic. He was flown to LA, NY on a regular basis to do those junket interviews with the stars of the film. The studios would pay for the flight and put him up in a nice hotel. He would also receive tons and tons of screener copies of films (including porn!!!!) and numerous other trinkets and do dads. He made hardly any money doing this and had to work a regular job to pay the bills. Long story longer, let these poor souls enjoy their free games and swag because they report on entertainment and make doo doo for money.

I remember reading or watching a video about how the owner of Rottentomatoes or something was flown to places to see movies that weren't finished so he could review them. It was made to seem like a test to check if their movie was good enough and a challenge to try to impress him with the movie not to bribe him by giving him a good place to sleep and such.

These sites that advertise on these gaming sites do so because the people they are trying to reach go there. Even if the games get bad scores I bet they just want the customers to at least know their game exist.

 

[EXGN]

I said this in the other thread, but I'll say it here again:

I can't speak for the big sites, but I work for a company that represents a bunch of smaller game sites and sells their advertising space. Not once in the time I've worked there has any of the paid advertising (even from video game companies) ever changed a word on a review or affected what a reviewer has said. I've never seen an advertiser pull dollars because of a bad review. Writers often have no idea what's even being advertised on the site.

Now, keep in mind, I work with smaller sites. I don't know how the IGN's and Gamespot's work, since they work directly with agencies.

That's my two cents on advertising though. The stuff like what Lauren Wainwright did, though? unacceptable. All the free gifts and parties are disgusting, and I personally don't agree with it.

But this is GAF, the same crowd that detests the "hivemind" personification, but then proceeds to whitewash every entertainment writer and PR/ad person as someone looking to pull the wool over the eyes of the consumer.

On topic, Crispy Gamer tried to do that, they had like Axe and KFC ads on their website. They actually did pretty good until they got tangled up with GamerDNA and shit hit the fan.

 

[Dr Dogg]

To be fair to this guy I work for a newspaper. Advertising, circulation and editorial are three different departments. We don't even see the ad guys during the day nor what ads they've sold. The only time we deal with the ad department is when they fuck up when we are laying out the pages. For example, the election is coming up. For our election tab I had to explain to half the candidates that advertising and editorial were two different departments. I had to explain that they didn't have to pay to talk to me, I haven't seen the full page ad they paid for through advertising and they can't just re-send me the ad they sent to advertising.

Yes, I'm cognizant that ads are the shit that pay my salary. But really, we don't give two shits about ads. That's what the advertising department is for. I'm half inclined to install ad-blocker because anytime you pull up our site there's annoying video ads.

That's pretty much how it works for the publisher I work for. I mentioned earlier in this thread that the relationship RPS has with Eurogamer conducting their advertising is like that of contract publishing. We publish various magazines from guys who are passionate about a certain subject but they neither have the ability or tools to get this to print, manage production, distribute it or even pay for it so we step in and handle this in return for us publishing there magazine we agree with the client to run adverts sold by us within the publication that are related to the subject matter.

It's an amicable agreement and really allows people who are passionate about something get there voice heard and into the hands fellow enthusiasts. The internet is seriously changing the way we consume information and certainly makes the entry into the field of journalism and reporting very easy and cost effective but just creating content is only but a small part in a much grander business.

 

[Ventilaator]

Would it even matter?
The second they rate "Ultra-Hype Game VII" anything less than a 10 the threads will still be filled with inane accusations and calls for the site to be banned.

This. I don't get where the calls for a good site are coming from, considering what happens every time any review is even a single point off the average. The site that decides to actually start reviewing videogames properly would be laughed off pretty much immediately.

HURRRRRR there's no way this game is a 5! it's functional! That's an 8! Those trolls!

 

[Dead Man]

Why would anyone refuse advertiser money? Or just money/PR-junk in general?

You are in that place you seek. People who do this for a living need money from somewhere man.

You should really read the thread linked in the OP.

 

[lazer_bean]

even in traditional journalism it's hard to find

on kotaku a while ago i saw an article about a gift the author had received and particularly enjoyed.
it just goes to show what a common practice this is.

GAF has become my primary source of info now, im glad about it

 

[Dr Dogg]

even in traditional journalism it's hard to find

As much as I detest Jim Sterling he did say one thing that made sense. These people are not journalists. Almost all the people writing for games media could be viewed as just writers or commentators especially with mediums such as blogs, the constant steam of consciousness that are gaming sites or pointless updates on social media.

There's hardly any real journalism in the games industry due to it would go against the very nature of what publishers want and as Jeff Green posted in the main thread that when you're reporting on news, previews and reviews it's all about access.

With publishers and how we as consumers see it there's a clear lack of transparency within the industry, we are only allowed to see what they want us to see and no matter how honest a writer is being about what they report on, what they have been sent or promo events they were sent on if there source is direct from the publisher nothing is going to change much.

I would love to see some real issues taken to task like the real reason EA pulled games of Steam as there was lots of speculation and conjecture on the matter but nothing that was officially released added up. Occasionally you hear some insider stories that really alter your perspective about what goes on behind closed doors and really does change how you view developers and publishers like this horrible insight into the demise of Free Radical http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-04-free-radical-vs-the-monsters.It's just a shame these stories come out after the damage has already been done.

 

[Wiktor]

As much as I detest Jim Sterling he did say one thing that made sense. These people are not journalists. Almost all the people writing for games media could be viewed as just writers or commentators especially with mediums such as blogs, the constant steam of consciousness that are gaming sites or pointless updates on social media.

There's hardly any real journalism in the games industry due to it would go against the very nature of what publishers want and as Jeff Green posted in the main thread that when you're reporting on news, previews and reviews it's all about access.
e.

Can't the same be said about any entertainment sector though?
And do we really want "real" journalism in videogames? This is pure entertainment market, if you're going to be doing real journalism there you will mostly be reduced to tablod-like investigations into personal lives. There's just aren't many serious enough stories about gaming to have a lot to write about.

 

[Earthpainting]

Could you please alphabetise the list? It would make it easier for archiving purposes.

 

[Makonero]

Can't the same be said about any entertainment sector though?
And do we really want "real" journalism in videogames? This is pure entertainment market, if you're going to be doing real journalism there you will mostly be reduced to tablod-like investigations into personal lives. There's just aren't many serious enough stories about gaming to have a lot to write about.

I completely disagree. Things like Foxconn, Gerstmann-gate, the Kotaku article exposè on Silicon Knights, the IGN article on Retro, and even Rab's article calling out suspicious behavior - these all have the hallmarks of true journalism. And there are plenty of "real issues" for games journalists to tackle, if they weren't so intent on keeping the status quo.

 

[Coolwhip]

Gaming websites (dont call it journalism) are in a tough spot though. They need visitors to survive, I'm pretty sure there are loads of deals where the developers only invites you for a sneak preview if you are a tad more positive on the review. Same with ads "I'll give you a huge ad deal if you cover our games just a little more".

 

[LuchaShaq]

Perks like crappy plastic statues that are nothing but literal garbage that sits in a closet unless you want to troll a co worker?

Perks like trips across the world where it makes zero sense to have the hassle of flying since 90% of the attendees are from the bay area and you don't have time to do anything but see the games anyways? A conference room in hawaii isn't any more special than a conference room in wisconsin.

"Free games" Anyone at a non tumblr blog can just expense that shit either way. If you gave a reviewer the choice between 200$ price and get it a month early or free the day of release 99%+ would choose to pay so they could get their review up in a timely fashion without rushing through it last second.

For people who actually care about games these trips are a HASSLE not a "perk". There "perks" are to get fanboy blog sites pumped, and to spend the rest of the marketing budget ASAP so they don't get less next time.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Perks like crappy plastic statues that are nothing but literal garbage that sits in a closet unless you want to troll a co worker?

Perks like trips across the world where it makes zero sense to have the hassle of flying since 90% of the attendees are from the bay area and you don't have time to do anything but see the games anyways? A conference room in hawaii isn't any more special than a conference room in wisconsin.

"Free games" Anyone at a non tumblr blog can just expense that shit either way. If you gave a reviewer the choice between 200$ price and get it a month early or free the day of release 99%+ would choose to pay so they could get their review up in a timely fashion without rushing through it last second.

For people who actually care about games these trips are a HASSLE not a "perk". There "perks" are to get fanboy blog sites pumped, and to spend the rest of the marketing budget ASAP so they don't get less next time.

Love the Alan Wake swag we got. A signed poster, 2 t-shirts and a Alan Wake flash light for all my …. flash light needs. Anyway, arrived back in the UK at around 9:30am and I am so hung over. The Remedy guys sure know how to treat us to a night out. We all were taken out for some Finish cuisine. I had Reindeer for the first time and it was delicious! I also had 3 large glasses of wine and some super cold vodka shots. Then, after the restaurant, I had some weird black vodka shots. Of course, we ended up in some ice bar later on and when I arrived back I pretty much stayed away until we had to leave to get our plane at 5:30 in the morning!

So keep your eye on Consolemonster.com for the preview which should hit mid Feb. I Met some fantastic people at the event. I usually do a lot of community events or smaller press events, so this time it was nice to hang out with some of the bigger sites/publications and chat to them. ♥ Neon – videogamer.com ♥ Tam - incgamers.com ♥ Nick – telegraph.co.uk ♥ to name a few!

I’ve found business cards from people at MTV, IGN and Remedy as well. So whole trip was a real experience for me and had got me thinking about a few things career wise as well. Need more confidence in myself!

Yeah.

 

[Wiktor]

I completely disagree. Things like Foxconn, Gerstmann-gate, the Kotaku article exposè on Silicon Knights, the IGN article on Retro, and even Rab's article calling out suspicious behavior - these all have the hallmarks of true journalism. And there are plenty of "real issues" for games journalists to tackle, if they weren't so intent on keeping the status quo.

There's like one serious issue every few months and most of all..few people actually care about such things.

 

[Dr Dogg]

Can't the same be said about any entertainment sector though?
And do we really want "real" journalism in videogames? This is pure entertainment market, if you're going to be doing real journalism there you will mostly be reduced to tablod-like investigations into personal lives. There's just aren't many serious enough stories about gaming to have a lot to write about.

Pretty much yes. Compared to what you can read in a daily newspaper, be it a tabloid, broadsheet or a freebie there is much more content covering a whole range of issues (some interesting, some not so) in comparison to what traditional games mags used to put out each month. Now they have reverted to daily updates the shear dearth of content is quite telling. There's a reason that even truly awful newspapers and magazines not affiliated with games give them little to no coverage outside of previews and reviews.

 

[Lancehead]

There's like one serious issue every few months and most of all..few people actually care about such things.

The content needn't always be about "troubles" in the industry. They could be looking more at game design practices and philosophies. For example, I'd love to see more stuff along the lines of Keiron Gillen's work on Thief 3.

The "no one will care" is a shitty excuse for ignoring content that is worth exploring. Maybe that's the nature of the industry, so that should change as well.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Metro Gamecentral

Dunno about perks, but they carry little to no gaming advertisement as they are part of a newspaper/website.

Probably one of the reasons they are some of the harshest reviewers going.