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[PolarDoc22]

Well, that's almost my feeling. It wasn't some huge declaration I was making, it was just a slight annoyance I felt when reading posts. I commented out of an interest to try and center things a little more, which in hindsight was an obvious mistake. Now I'm clearly in support of their actions and even have friends in(and get paid by) the Israeli government.

What an interesting life I lead, eh?

Well, then what the hell. You did bring that up as if it were important, which naturally led to people making the conclusion that you were jumping out in support of the Israeli military's actions.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Well, that's almost my feeling. It wasn't some huge declaration I was making, it was just a slight annoyance I felt when reading posts. I commented out of an interest to try and center things a little more, which in hindsight was an obvious mistake. Now I'm clearly in support of their actions and even have friends in(and get paid by) the Israeli government.

What an interesting life I lead, eh?

Well, I just not see how that being more a political maneuver to draw attention to a great humanitarian problem that an aid flotilla (that it still was), change any of the facts, or has any real weight in the incident.

They knew that they would have some problems, but I'm pretty sure that getting attacked and killed wasn't one of them...

 

[Dead Man]

Please don't pretend (you and others here) that if that hadn't happened in international waters you'd be reacting differently.

:lol Whatever. I would still deplore the action, but concede Israel had a right to do it. And with that, I say goodbye to you.

 

[Celsior]

Who knew bum rushing a military blockade was a good idea.

EU has now demanded that the Israeli blockade on Gaza is immediately lifted. That's a start. Let's see if it's just like usual - words only, with zero intent to back them up.

Next, they might withdraw an ambassador, then send him back 2 months later. People wonder why Israel gets away with so much because they are the only ally of the west in the middle east.

 

[jorma]

Not all the West please.,only the US.

EU has now demanded that the Israeli blockade on Gaza is immediately lifted. That's a start. Let's see if it's just like usual - words only, with zero intent to back them up.

 

[caffeinated]

Israel's prime minister has expressed his support for the militray's actions in a deadly raid against an aid flotilla sailing to the blockaded Gaza Strip.

Benjamin Netanyahu's office says he spoke Monday to top Israeli diplomatic and security officials by telephone from Canada and voiced his "full backing" for the military.

I wouldn't expect him to say anything against Israeli Military.

It's just another day in Israel so don't expect much reaction from Israeli side.

 

[KTOOOOM]

only 3 ships arrived at ASDOD

 

[Apocryphon]

Messy stuff. I expect that the UK government will have more to say about this that it's US counterpart though, but for all the wrong reasons ofcourse.

I don't want to make any judgements on the evidence at hand though. There's still stuff we don't know. However, the IDF should've used non-lethal arms if it was going in like that. The protestors were stupid to try and run a military blockade - that kind of stuff always ends badly - but Israel formulated plans to board and take control of the ships and could have easily used non-lethal methods.

 

[caffeinated]

Turkish PM was on his planned trip in Chile and cancelled his trip briefly after the massacre to return Turkey. I wonder what speech he will give considering his storming off during talks with Netanyahu at Davos last year.

 

[Veidt]

Messy stuff. I expect that the UK government will have more to say about this that it's US counterpart though, but for all the wrong reasons ofcourse.

I don't want to make any judgements on the evidence at hand though. There's still stuff we don't know. However, the IDF should've used non-lethal arms if it was going in like that. The protestors were stupid to try and run a military blockade - that kind of stuff always ends badly - but Israel formulated plans to board and take control of the ships and could have easily used non-lethal methods.

Man, I agree. US forces apprehend Somali pirates ( who are criminals) without lethal force. It's absolutely ridiculous for the IDF to take this sort of approach on known human rights activists.

 

[KHarvey16]

Well, then what the hell. You did bring that up as if it were important, which naturally led to people making the conclusion that you were jumping out in support of the Israeli military's actions.

I don't think I posted it as if it were vitally important, I just kinda threw it in there. I worded it pretty fairly I thought too.

Well, I just not see how that being more a political maneuver to draw attention to a great humanitarian problem that an aid flotilla (that it still was), change any of the facts, or has any real weight in the incident.

They knew that they would have some problems, but I'm pretty sure that getting attacked and killed wasn't one of them...

The facts of the incident are what's important, and the manipulation of their presentation felt cynical and a little insulting. If it's worth being upset over it's worth being upset over, I don't need people leaving out details about what the ships were doing.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

But when will the extra bit of reluctance end just because it is *gasp* Israel? Good lord, that country commits all sorts of crimes against humanity, isn't even ashamed of any of it, in fact, they always do it blatantly in the face of everyone, give it some bullshit justification and be done with it, while the rest of the world just give a frowny face. Attacking red cross posts, humanitarian aid, starving people in an open prison while dropping bombs on it, ... I mean, how the fuck do you spin this to make it look OK?

When will the world react like they would do to any other nation? The country would've been bombed 20 times already normally. And no, I'm not asking for a war on Israel. But is there really nothing substantial the world can do against all this massacres? Like economic sanctions? Ending any and all diplomatic relations? (I'm specifically looking at you USA) There has got to be something that stings Israel just enough to make them think twice for acting like a bunch of insane criminals?

The world: WTF Israel, what the fuck are you doing?
Israel: something something holocaust and nazis, you are all anti-semites
The world: ALL IS FORGIVEN!

And severing all diplomatic ties with Israel would probably just fuel the 'us against them' fires of the conservatives in Israel. So not severing any ties = Israel takes it as support to let them do whatever the fuck they want. Not severing any ties = Israel gets butthurt and still does whatever the fuck they want because everyone's against them. I don't know what could be done to help the situation, really.

 

[Fjolle]

UN security council will meet this afternoon for a meeting

Spoiler

They will probably send an angrily worded letter

 

[Empty]

Obama and Netanyahu are set to meet this week. It's almost like he's daring Obama to actually retaliate with more than a few meaningless sharp words in private, but i guess you can't go upsetting the pro-isreal lobby, better to send billions in military aid every year to support isreal's collective punishment of the palestinian people in the near open air prison of Gaza than do that.

 

[Eaten By A Grue]

Who knew bum rushing a military blockade was a good idea.

QFT

What has ever bum rushing any military blockade throughout history by any country who uses such a tactic a good ideal. It is just plain stupid what those boats did.

 

[ollin]

UN security council will meet this afternoon for a meeting

Spoiler

They will probably send an angrily worded letter

US will veto any strongly worded letter against Israel.

 

[KTOOOOM]

there are 5 Americans aboard the ships

 

[Barney]

This is just great. When the pirates are Somalis, the whole world is upset, but when they're Israelis, no one cares.

I wonder if Iran or some Arabian country have done this .. US and the European countries would attack them and kick their asses.

 

[caffeinated]

UN security council will meet this afternoon for a meeting

Spoiler

They will probably send an angrily worded letter

Just another day in UN security council.

 

[itsinmyveins]

This is just great. When the pirates are Somalis, the whole world is upset, but when they're Israelis, no one cares.

Yeah, it's not like this is the top news on every newssite and it's not like Israel is being condemned internationally for this at all. I mean really, dude?

 

[jorma]

I wouldn't expect him to say anything against Israeli Military.

It's just another day in Israel so don't expect much reaction from Israeli side.

This is anything but "just another day", it's probably the single most disastrous day for Israel since the Gaza invasion. Strained relations with EU just got more strained. The relations with Turkey - probably their most important ally in the region - is now most likely completely wrecked. And whatever US will say, this time they wont be saying things like "we strongly defend Israels right to defend herself". I'm almost sure that there will be condemnations from the US as well, how can there not be?

 

[Jayge]

how the fuck the world allow this
i mean WTF

The world allowed it because there really isn't much you can say to a country the size of New Jersey that gets attacked on all sides by an alliance of what, 8 or 9 different countries and goes on to win the war and seize some land in the process.

"Syria'll play nice this time, just give 'em the Golan Heights back, c'mon? Buddy? You know you want to!"

At least they gave most of Sinai back.

Also, that map lists several territories that weren't primarily Palestinian as Palestinian land.

 

[Barrett2]

Stay classy, Israel.

 

[Cereal KiIIer]

Israel could blow up half of the Middle East and part of Europe and nobody would even try to stop them...

 

[Joel Was Right]

You should read the comment sections on Fox News articles on this

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/31/eu-calls-investigation-israel-military-action/

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/31/turkey-withdraws-ambassador-israel-deaths/

 

[KTOOOOM]

The world allowed it because there really isn't much you can say to a country the size of New Jersey that gets attacked on all sides by an alliance of what, 8 or 9 different countries and goes on to win the war and seize some land in the process.

"Syria'll play nice this time, just give 'em the Golan Heights back, c'mon? Buddy? You know you want to!"

At least they gave most of Sinai back.

Also, that map lists several territories that weren't primarily Palestinian as Palestinian land.

WTF you talking about

 

[PolarDoc22]

The world allowed it because there really isn't much you can say to a country the size of New Jersey that gets attacked on all sides by an alliance of what, 8 or 9 different countries and goes on to win the war and seize some land in the process.

"Syria'll play nice this time, just give 'em the Golan Heights back, c'mon? Buddy? You know you want to!"

Yeah, and looking at Israel's history it's understandable that they'd have itchy trigger fingers. A bunch of Palestinian activists on a boat loaded with cargo trying to break their blockade ought to make them nervous.
Still, the blockade itself is wrong and the way Israel handled the situation was wrong to say the least.

 

[Meadows]

You can tell the people that say "U.S.A" in the Fox comments are pausing to take a patriotic wank in between each proudly bellowed letter.

 

[Zenith]

Please don't pretend (you and others here) that if that hadn't happened in international waters you'd be reacting differently.

You claim people shouldn't "be allowed to go wherever they want and even assault anyone who gets in their righteous path" and then come out in full support for Israel attacking an unarmed ship in international waters.

Hypocrite.

 

[Jayge]

Yeah, and looking at Israel's history it's understandable that they'd have itchy trigger fingers. A bunch of Palestinian activists on a boat loaded with cargo trying to break their blockade ought to make them nervous.
Still, the blockade itself is wrong and the way Israel handled the situation was wrong to say the least.

I don't disagree; I just have a hard time agreeing with people who are so quick to condemn Israel and call for these instant solutions that they are so sure will bring peace, and so sure that they will work, without understanding the psychological history of the citizens of that country. The Israelis need to learn some diplomacy, nobody in their right minds would say otherwise, but there's no way they're going to be giving any free gifts as a sign of goodwill after what they've been through, and the international condemnation just makes them more paranoid and gives them internal justifications for their actions (i.e. being more suspicious of any international aid, being even more trigger happy).

WTF you talking about

Q.E.D.?

 

[theignoramus]

I'm so confused about this. I'm probably an idiot, and I don't understand this situation at all. But what i've heard and understood from others is this:

- The Jewish people have been disliked, enslaved, hated and looked down upon for 7000 years, dating back to ancient Egypt.

- Some people during WW2 knew about the Holocaust, but didn't do anything, so after the war, they "gave" what would become Israel to the Jewish people.

- Arabs and Muslims hate Jews. Maybe Jews hate Arabs and Muslims too?

- Israel is said to have one of the strongest armies in the world? Thanks to backing from the USA, who also has many high ranking senators who are of Jewish decent and supposedly "biased" towards Israel, no country have been able to destroy Israel and take back the land!

- Israel has seemed invincible in their past Wars post world war 2, until the latest Libanon conflict, where their army had trouble destroying the enemy, due to efficent guerilla warfare, and hiding among civilians, to either make the Israeli War machine draw back, or lose favor with the rest of the free world, for letting the bombs go down on Libanese civilians, to try and get some "terrorists" or Arabian Freedom fighters(depending on the way you look at it).

- Most people recognize that Jews have been through a lot of crap, but Israel are losing favor all over, due to their aggressive politics? It seems that they retaliate very hard, every time a few Jewish people/soliders/civlians die, by making the enemy have a higher bodycount, to not let it happen again!?


Am I correct so far, in some of this, or am I completely off base? I am really getting interested in this, as this conflict is becoming larger here in Scandinavia.

The Jew hunting in Malmø, Sweden, with a 90 year old holocaust being stoned at a demonstration, and violence against jews in Copenhagen recently, has really... Yeah, it has further peaked my interest. I guess that's natural, if it's something that hids you, when it's closer to home.
I've been use to hearing about Muslims and Jews killing each other for as long as I have been alive. It's some crazy stuff.

Israel made that up. The IDF itself admits that most of the combat took place in empty villages and that most of Hezbollah's command structure was in underground bunkers and empty fields. (that's how the Hezbollah fighters outlasted Israel's intensive bombing campaign) The Israelis bombed the hell out of civilian infrastructure to get the Lebanese civilians to turn against the Hezbollah.

 

[Eaten By A Grue]

You claim people shouldn't "be allowed to go wherever they want and even assault anyone who gets in their righteous path" and then come out in full support for Israel attacking an unarmed ship in international waters.

Hypocrite.

AP says they had pistols, knives, and clubs so technically the people on the boat were not unarmed.

 

[Funky Papa]

Yeah, and looking at Israel's history it's understandable that they'd have itchy trigger fingers. A bunch of Palestinian activists on a boat loaded with cargo trying to break their blockade ought to make them nervous.

The flotilla itself was highly publicised, and IIRC, there were journalists covering the entire travel. It is not like it was some shady WMD smuggling operation.

AP says they had pistols, knives, and clubs so technically the people on the boat were not unarmed.

Those are Israel's words.

 

[fortified_concept]

AP says they had pistols, knives, and clubs so technically the people on the boat were not unarmed.

Yes, because if Israel says it, it must be true.

 

[SimpleDesign]

Not all the West please.,only the US.
For example French president condemns it.
Edit:he "condemns the disproportionate use of force"

Talk without action is worthless. So it doesn't really matter what they say.

 

[Enosh]

You guys remember that dutch-swat clip of them storming a hijacked oiltanker and seizing it from the pirates without anybody dying? Cool huh? Too bad the israeli military cant outmuscle reliefworkers without putting highcalibre rounds in their faces.

one was an atack where they started by firing a MG into the ship to put the pirates heads down and where the somali pirates surendered without any resistance

the other was a case where soldiers repelled down into an angry mob at which point they were atacked with knifes and other metal objects

quite a difrent scenario

 

[Eaten By A Grue]

Yes, because if Israel says it, it must be true.

So if the boat said they did not have them, then it must be true as well?

 

[Zenith]

Yeah, and looking at Israel's history it's understandable that they'd have itchy trigger fingers. A bunch of Palestinian activists on a boat loaded with cargo trying to break their blockade ought to make them nervous.
Still, the blockade itself is wrong and the way Israel handled the situation was wrong to say the least.

Understandable? It was well-publicised who and what was on board the aid fleet. Palestinian activists is an excuse for "itchy trigger fingers"? Did you you think they would all don green Hamas bandanas and turn it into an invasion fleet?

the international condemnation just makes them more paranoid and gives them internal justifications for their actions (i.e. being more suspicious of any international aid, being even more trigger happy).

yeah, it's our fault. Clearly we need to be even more lenient with them.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Yes, because if Israel says it, it must be true.

One of the videos showed someone beating a soldier with what looked like an iron pipe. That being said, what's been rumored is knives and pistols and such. We don't know anything for sure yet. But the boat being on international water would make the boarding illegal.

 

[fortified_concept]

So if the boat said they did not have them, then it must be true as well?

I tend to trust intellectuals and humanitarian organizations like the ones on the ship more than a terrorist state that has massacred thousands of civilians. But that's just me.

 

[PolarDoc22]

Understandable? It was well-publicised who and what was on board the aid fleet. Palestinian activists is an excuse for "itchy trigger fingers"? Did you you think they would all don green Hamas bandanas and turn it into an invasion fleet?

Eh, no. It's not an excuse. I'm saying that I can understand what might have gone through their heads. Nothing justifying their actions, I tried to make that clear in my post.

I should also note that I don't really know much about the backstory behind the aid vessel, I'm just learning as I go along. I didn't realize that until just now.

 

[fortified_concept]

One of the videos showed someone beating a soldier with what looked like an iron pipe. That being said, what's been rumored is knives and pistols and such. We don't know anything for sure yet. But the boat being on international water would make the boarding illegal.

When pirates are attacking your ship and shooting at your people you have the right to defend yourself. A pipe they found on the ship and used as a weapon is much different than the pistols and assault rifles Israel is claiming the aid people had.

 

[Fjolle]

If the people on the ship raised the white flag and surrendered to the Israeli forces, wouldn't that be an invitation for them to come aboard?

 

[theignoramus]

The world allowed it because there really isn't much you can say to a country the size of New Jersey that gets attacked on all sides by an alliance of what, 8 or 9 different countries and goes on to win the war and seize some land in the process.

"Syria'll play nice this time, just give 'em the Golan Heights back, c'mon? Buddy? You know you want to!"

At least they gave most of Sinai back.

Also, that map lists several territories that weren't primarily Palestinian as Palestinian land.

talk about disingenuous history.
First off, Israel, the UK and France, attacked Egypt in 1956 for control of the Suez Canal. In 1967, senior Israeli intelligence literally went to the U.S. State department for an assessment of a war with Egypt, and the Johnson administration officials told Israel that Egypt would not attack, but even if they did, Israel would destroy the Egyptian army in a week.
Third, Sadat made Israel a peace offering in 1970, demanding the Sinai back, but Israel rebuked his offer and continued building illegal settlements in the peninsula. Israel only gave the Sinai back after a bloody conflict that could have started a third World War.
Fourth, Israel has repeatedly rebuked diplomatic guestures from the Arab states, even from the "moderate" Arab regimes.
From just a few weeks ago: (bare in mind, the Jerusalem Post is a right wing newspaper)
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=176663

 

[Forsete]

So if a tanker sailing outside the Ivory Coast defends itself from Somali pirates, the pirates are justified in capturing it?

 

[caffeinated]

Put all the Arab League members together they don't have even half the balls Turkey has.

Yet Turkey fights for Arabs' rights, not for Turkish people.

 

[Zapages]

Put all the Arab League members together they don't have even half the balls Turkey has.

Yet Turkey fights for Arabs' rights, not for Turkish people.

Maybe Turkey is trying to create a neo-Ottoman Empire or atleast bring them in her sphere of influence....

 

[jorma]

If the people on the ship raised the white flag and surrendered to the Israeli forces, wouldn't that be an invitation for them to come aboard?

A white flag is generally considered a plea for mercy and should not really be seen as an invitation to come aboard and kill more people.

 

[Dead Man]

Has anyone tried to provide a reason why this happened in international waters? I have heard that Israel admits it was in international waters, but why did it need to be done there? Total strategic failure there, in addition to the obvious concerns about attacking high profile aid convoys.

 

[Fjolle]

A white flag is generally considered a plea for mercy and should not really be seen as an invitation to come aboard and kill more people.

Nor should you attack people that comes aboard after you have begged for mercy, right?