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[Do The Mario]

Pokemon Ruby also >>>>> Golden Sun

 

[AniHawk]

Pokemon Ruby also >>>>> Golden Sun

True. I wasn't anticipating how fun Ruby would be.

 

[Amir0x]

Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga is great. Golden Sun 1 and 2 are not great, since they suck.

Therefore, Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga is one of the only great 2D RPGs on GBA.

Fact! There are no other opinions that are correct in this thread! I'm sealin' this up.

 

[AniHawk]

Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga is great. Golden Sun 1 and 2 are not great, since they suck.

Therefore, Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga is one of the only great 2D RPGs on GBA.

Fact! There are no other opinions that are correct in this thread! I'm sealin' this up.

M&L:SS is the only SMRPG that I've ever wanted to quit playing.

 

[Amir0x]

M&L:SS is the only SMRPG that I've ever wanted to quit playing.

And you loved Lost Age?

You're banned, AniHawk. I'm hacking the internet and banning you. Oh no, don't try to escape. You're done!

 

[AniHawk]

And you loved Lost Age?

Well The Lost Age was good, you see. Superstar Saga was bad. Not as bad as Phantom Brave, but still pretty bad.

You're banned, AniHawk. I'm hacking the internet and banning you. Oh no, don't try to escape. You're done!

Well, probably now. Yeah.

 

[Amir0x]

Well The Lost Age was good, you see. Superstar Saga was bad. Not as bad as Phantom Brave, but still pretty bad.

If this were the dark ages you'd be tried as a heretic right about now! In fact, I don't see why this isn't a good time to start a new crusade!

 

[AniHawk]

If this were the dark ages you'd be tried as a heretic right about now! In fact, I don't see why this isn't a good time to start a new crusade!

You know the crusades were mostly failures, right?

 

[Amir0x]

You know the crusades were mostly failures, right?

Learn from our mistakes to become more efficient for a better tommorrow.

 

[SantaC]

Golden Sun: TLA is an awesome game Amir0x. It feels very non linear, and the dungeons are actually fun. I liked it better than ML:SS.

 

[Amir0x]

Golden Sun: TLA is an awesome game Amir0x. It feels very non linear, and the dungeons are actually fun. I liked it better than ML:SS.

No, it's pretty much a horrible, derivative RPG with a shoddy, archaic battle system. The only redeeming factor, as you mentioned, is some of the dungeon puzzles. That's not enough to save the game as you can imagine from my comments, however.

That said, you already know I'm critical of RPGs with shitty, cliche storylines (haha @ lighthouses) and with battle systems that'd fit in just fine in 1992, so this should come as no surprise.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

I enjoyed Mario & Luigi, Final Fantasy I & II, Legend of Mana, Shining Soul II, Shining Force, Golden Sun, Golden Sun II, Breath of Fire, Breath of Fire 2, and of course, Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire.

 

[SantaC]

No, it's pretty much a horrible, derivative RPG with a shoddy, archaic battle system. The only redeeming factor, as you mentioned, is some of the dungeon puzzles. That's not enough to save the game as you can imagine from my comments, however.

That said, you already know I'm critical of RPGs with shitty, cliche storylines (haha @ lighthouses) and with battle systems that'd fit in just fine in 1992, so this should come as no surprise.

Still it was cool that you could transfer all weapons, items, djinnis, members from the first game to GS:TLA.

 

[Amir0x]

Still it was cool that you could transfer all weapons, items, djinnis, members from the first game to GS:TLA.

:}

 

[tedtropy]

I probably haven't played enough RPGs in my time to realize that Golden Sun is such a "horrible" one. Honestly, I enjoyed it from beginning to end...and this was playing it on the old "stand under a spotlight to see a damn thing" GBA. The graphics were incredible for the time, and still hold up. I thought some of the music was fantastic, and searching for the little Pokemon rip-off guys was fun. I couldn't get into The Lost Age, but I've been meaning to give it another go. Maybe when I get burned out on Twisted.

 

[akascream]

I'm with Gruco. Something about M&L just made me bored. Once the gimmick of controlling 2 characters with 2 buttons wore off, I was done.

I really like FFT:A, despite that stupid ass fucking lame piece of shit law system. I still need to pick up tactics ogre for gba.

 

[jarrod]

Golden Sun Books 1&2 were actually Camelot's apology for Beyond the Beyond. In a sense, they were the game Sony wouldn't give them time/resources to make.

I still say Camelot's best RPG ever is Mario Golf GBC though. Gameography!

Sega Genesis
-Shining in the Darkness (co-developed with Climax Entertainment)
-Shining Force: The Legacy of Great Intention (co-developed with Climax Entertainment)
-Shining Force II: Ancient Sealing

Game Gear
-Shining Force Gaiden*
-Shining Force: The Sword of Hajya (Gaiden II)
-Shining Force Gaiden: The Final Conflict*

Sega CD
-Shining Force CD

Sega Saturn
-Shining Wisdom
-Shining the Holy Ark
-Shining Force III (Scenario 1)
-Shining Force III Scenario 2*
-Shining Force III Scenario 3*
-Shining Force III Premium Disc*

PlayStation
-Beyond the Beyond
-Hot Shots Golf

Nintendo 64
-Mario Golf
-Mario Tennis

Game Boy Color
-Mario Golf
-Mario Tennis

Game Boy Advance
-Golden Sun
-Golden Sun: The Lost Age
-Mario Golf: Advance Tour
-Mario Tennis Advance

Nintendo GameCube
-Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour
-Mario Power Tennis


*JP only release

 

[Scalemail Ted]

I loved M&L:SS.

you guys probably just got defective copies.

 

[turok4n64]

wow with all those RPGs under their belt, why doesnt Nintendo let Camelot do something else besides golf and tennis each generation

 

[AniHawk]

That said, you already know I'm critical of RPGs with shitty, ... storylines

Golden Sun's story was terrible, but I loved the way TLA focused on exploration more instead of revenge... or whatever the fuck was the focus in GS. Like I said, it felt a lot like Skies of Arcadia in a way. Just good old-school GOODNESS.

BTW, don't search "Phantom Brave" in google image search. DON'T DO IT.

 

[Amir0x]

Golden Sun's story was terrible, but I loved the way TLA focused on exploration more instead of revenge... or whatever the fuck was the focus in GS. Like I said, it felt a lot like Skies of Arcadia in a way. Just good old-school GOODNESS.

BTW, don't search "Phantom Brave" in google image search. DON'T DO IT.

Strategy RPGs are slightly exempt from my umbrella. On the plus side, Phantom Brave actually has quality gameplay to fall back on... whereas Golden Sun, well, doesn't!

AND YOU WILL PAY FOR BRINGING IT UP AGAIN!

Also, as a rule I only brave GIS for great justice.

 

[AniHawk]

Strategy RPGs are slightly exempt from my umbrella. On the plus side, Phantom Brave actually has quality gameplay to fall back on...

Oh, you must've gotten the Limited Edition one then. See, I got the normal one at TRU along with SMT: Nocturne and Shadow Hearts: Covenant. Boy, what a great $100 spent THAT was.

 

[Amir0x]

Oh, you must've gotten the Limited Edition one then. See, I got the normal one at TRU along with SMT: Nocturne and Shadow Hearts: Covenant. Boy, what a great $100 spent THAT was.

For seriously, as all three are great games!

 

[AniHawk]

For seriously, as all three are great games!

If you insist on having brain matter leak out of your ear.

 

[Amir0x]

If you insist on having brain matter leak out of your ear.

AniHawk, your new title is "the anti-quality."

 

[AniHawk]

AniHawk, your new title is "the anti-quality."

Other games you might like that I do not:

Metroid Prime
Dark Cloud
Oracle of Seasons
Wario Ware
Jak II
Virtua Fighter 4
Timesplitters 2
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Blast Corps
Pilotwings 64
Almost Every Racing Sim Ever

And so on and so forth.

 

[Amir0x]

Yes. Anti-poor quality.

You can't add a qualifer, you've already been labeled! It will follow you around as you wander in the darkness, the river of tears from the ridicule burning your eyes. And you will be alone, drifting in your bitter state until the very ending of the world.

Metroid Prime
Dark Cloud
Jak II
Virtua Fighter 4
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City
Blast Corps
Pilotwings 64

Oh God, Metroid Prime? Vice City? Blast Corps? You're so dead to me.

Almost Every Racing Sim Ever

This just sounds like personal preference, very little to do with quality ;P

 

[AniHawk]

VC's main problem was that it froze in the exact same spot 9 different times. It pissed me off to no end.

San Andreas fucking owns though. So much fun, that game.

Blast Corps is just ... bleh. Though I didn't own it until very recently.

 

[Amir0x]

VC's main problem was that it froze in the exact same spot 9 different times. It pissed me off to no end.

San Andreas fucking owns though. So much fun, that game.

Blast Corps is just ... bleh. Though I didn't own it until very recently.

You don't even have an excuse for Metroid Prime, do you!? Today I look upon you in a different light.




As long as you like Earthbound, though, I will not hate completely.

 

[jarrod]

Strategy RPGs are slightly exempt from my umbrella. On the plus side, Phantom Brave actually has quality gameplay to fall back on... whereas Golden Sun, well, doesn't!

Kawaii level grinding > explorative puzzle dungeoning?


Are you you high?

 

[AniHawk]

You don't even have an excuse for Metroid Prime, do you!? Today I look upon you in a different light.

Why should I? The game is boring.

BUT OMG THE ATMOSPHERE. Pfft.

I liked Echoes MUCH more, but mostly because it felt a lot more puzzle-oriented.

 

[Amir0x]

Kawaii level grinding > puzzle dungeoning?


Are you you high?

High, no. Phantom Brave is in every single way except story (where it is equally bad) superior to Golden Sun. Of course, one is a strategy RPG and the other is just a regular ol' generi-tron RPG, but you get the drift. Depth >>>>>>>> Generi-Tron RPG.

The Golden Sun games are an abomination to RPGs, and I hope that the entire Camelot team that worked on it burns for even creating such tripe. Is that better for you? Enough venom? About as effective as being high, no?

 

[AniHawk]

High, no. Phantom Brave is in every single way except story (where it is equally bad) superior to Golden Sun.

Level grinding is never fun.

Except in The Sacred Stones. Then it's fun, because you can create an army of doom out of small weakling characters and actually beat the game. Phantom Brave had me struggling to get from island to island.

 

[callous]

I'm quite the opposite. I actually had fun with the first, whereas I just fall asleep every time I try to play TLA. Ugh.

Same here. I prefer the first game. I found it to be better paced. Apart from that, it puzzles me too that there haven't been more great RPGs made for GBA.

 

[Amir0x]

Level grinding is never fun.

Except in The Sacred Stones. Then it's fun, because you can create an army of doom out of small weakling characters and actually beat the game. Phantom Brave had me struggling to get from island to island.

You struggled in Phantom Brave? Well, I guess it's just about varying degrees of dedication. Obviously, some grinding is involved. I love grinding if it feels like training an army, which I thought Phantom Brave does to varying degrees of effectiveness. Naturally, mileage varies.

 

[AniHawk]

You struggled in Phantom Brave? Well, I guess it's just about varying degrees of dedication. Obvious, some grinding is involved. I love grinding if it feels like training an army, which I thought Phantom Brave does to varying degrees of effectiveness. Naturally, mileage varies.

I played it for 7 hours and beat 4 or 5 islands. Can't remember. By the time I stopped, Ash was of course, the most powerful, followed by weak little pansies and Marona. I think it was the zombie level with the slippery ground. Either I barely beat it, or continuously knocked the enemy numbers down to 1 and got murderized.

 

[Amir0x]

I played it for 7 hours and beat 4 or 5 islands. Can't remember. By the time I stopped, Ash was of course, the most powerful, followed by weak little pansies and Marona. I think it was the zombie level with the slippery ground. Either I barely beat it, or continuously knocked the enemy numbers down to 1 and got murderized.

Heh, yeah. Well if anything, I will admit Phantom Brave is a hardcore game with less ability to appeal to a large group of people, unlike Golden Sun which is fairly accessible.

 

[AniHawk]

Heh, yeah. Well if anything, I will admit Phantom Brave is a hardcore game with less ability to appeal to a large group of people, unlike Golden Sun which is fairly accessible.

Thing is, I REALLY liked Disgaea and La Pucelle, which is why I was surprised to be so turned off by PB.

 

[Amir0x]

Thing is, I REALLY liked Disgaea and La Pucelle, which is why I was surprised to be so turned off by PB.

I'm slightly different. La Pucelle turned me off greatly, whereas Disgaea and Phantom Brave were by far my favs.

 

[jarrod]

High, no. Phantom Brave is in every single way except story (where it is equally bad) superior to Golden Sun. Of course, one is a strategy RPG and the other is just a regular ol' generi-tron RPG, but you get the drift. Depth >>>>>>>> Generi-Tron RPG.

The Golden Sun games are an abomination to RPGs, and I hope that the entire Camelot team that worked on it burns for even creating such tripe. Is that better for you? Enough venom? About as effective as being high, no?

Well, that's the thing... GS isn't *really* too bad in the gameplay department. Fast battle system, comprehensive Djin/class cutomization and the best explorative puzzle dungeons since Lufia II in the genre... really, it's an excellent playing little RPG. In fact, it's way better than truely generic playing RPGs like Skies of Arcadia or Final Fantasy X.

Asnine story and endless bobbing head conversiations is where the game falls apart, not the gameplay. If you really don't think GS has quality gameplay to "fall back on", then I'd say your issue is more with the genre at large rather than this game in particular. It's arguably one of the better playing RPG this generation.

 

[Amir0x]

Well, that's the thing... GS isn't *really* too bad in the gameplay department. Fast battle system, comprehensive Djin/class cutomization and the best explorative puzzle dungeons since Lufia II in the genre... really, it's an excellent playing little RPG. In fact, it's way better than truely generic playing RPGs like Skies of Arcadia or Final Fantasy X.

I have equal venom for Skies of Arcadia, believe me.

Asnine story and endless bobbing head conversiations is where the game falls apart, not the gameplay. If you really don't think GS has quality gameplay to "fall back on", then I'd say your issue is more with the genre at large rather than this game in particular. It's arguably one of the better playing RPG this generation.

What? No. It had mostly bad gameplay. Like I said, the one aspect GS excelled in was puzzles. But even some of them were just uninspired, so it was a wash. The battle system is archaic and would fit in just fine in 1992 - we've moved on since then. If that's something you still hold up to a pedestal, that's fine. I don't appreciate that sort of step back in this era.

 

[jarrod]

What? No. It had mostly bad gameplay. Like I said, the one aspect GS excelled in was puzzles. But even some of them were just uninspired, so it was a wash. The battle system is archaic and would fit in just fine in 1992 - we've moved on since then. If that's something you still hold up to a pedestal, that's fine. I don't appreciate that sort of step back in this era.

Well explain this "bad gameplay" for me then, because I having some trouble with it. I'm not holding GS up on any pedistal, but it's battle system is fast, efficient and largely inoffensive... certainly not what I'd call "bad" in design or implementation. It gets the job done in classic sense, sort of like Dragon Quest. Fast, engaging and not broken. That alone's a plus compared to most RPGs these days.

Djinn management/customization is something you're really glossing over though, especially considering it's what elevates the battle engine beyond "archaic". How much time have you spent with these games exactly?

 

[Amir0x]

Well explain this "bad gameplay" for me then, because I having some trouble with it. I'm not holding GS up on any pedistal, but it's battle system is fast, efficient and largely inoffensive... certainly not what I'd call "bad" in design or implementation. It gets the job done in classic sense, sort of like Dragon Quest. Fast, engaging and not broken. That alone's a plus compared to most RPGs these days.

Although not entirely apt, in some ways this is true. And the truth is, Dragon Quest battle system IS largely outdated and no longer fun. This is not a slight against the entire genre as you tried to make it out to be, though, because most competent developers have moved on from the old early SNES-era "ten steps to making a shitty RPG". One of the main qualms was already mentioned in this thread. The fact that the game doesn't change targets once an enemy is defeated is just ridiculous at this point in time.

Djinn management/customization is something you're really glossing over though, especially considering it's what elevates the battle engine beyond "archaic". How much time have you spent with these games exactly?

Elevates it? I wouldn't say this is true at all. It's just like any typical summon system, except when you cast you lose some of the bonus and you have to wait for it to be ready again. I mean, I'm greatly simplifying but this is no great badge of honor.

 

[jarrod]

Although not entirely apt, in some ways this is true. And the truth is, Dragon Quest battle system IS largely outdated and no longer fun. This is not a slight against the entire genre as you tried to make it out to be, though, because most competent developers have moved on from the old early SNES-era "ten steps to making a shitty RPG". One of the main qualms was already mentioned in this thread. The fact that the game doesn't change targets once an enemy is defeated is just ridiculous at this point in time.

Most developers have? News to me, I only see Atlus R&D1, Capcom Studio 2, GameArts, Tales Studio, tri-Ace and Sacnoth/Nautilus making any successful effort at moving past basic DQ combat design (which is really "NES era") and in half those cases it amounts to simply "real time" commands or basic battle positioning. Most JRPGs are a step down from Golden Sun even really.

The removal of auto-targeting was a strategic decision though, to compensate for the lightning fast battle engine and ensure at least a little strategic thought in small scale battles. That's pretty obvious though.

Elevates it? I wouldn't say this is true at all. It's just like any typical summon system, except when you cast you lose some of the bonus and you have to wait for it to be ready again. I mean, I'm greatly simplifying but this is no great badge of honor.

It's hardly a typical summon system as it directly effects class (changing abilities, stat rankings and HP/MP even). It's more of a balancing act (using correct elemental/restorative summons at the right time combined with effectively keeping your needed skills in place, plus enough HP/MP, timing, etc) that really only comes into play during boss encounters (or on the hidden Island Labyrinth). You're oversimplyfing to the point of disservice here.... which seems to be somewhat of a theme for you.

 

[Amir0x]

Most developers have? News to me, I only see Atlus R&D1, Capcom Studio 2, GameArts, Tales Studio, tri-Ace and Sacnoth/Nautilus making any successful effort at moving past basic DQ combat design (which is really "NES era") and in half those cases it amounts to simply "real time" commands or basic battle positioning. Most JRPGs are a step down from Golden Sun even really.

Hm, no. But then again, we've already argued this point before and the conclusion is the same - most JRPGs do, in fact, suck. And it's specifically because of the horrible stories and the aged past gameplay.

The removal of auto-targeting was a strategic decision though, to compensate for the lightning fast battle engine and ensure at least a little strategic thought in small scale battles. That's pretty obvious though.

A strategic decision though it may be, it's fucking stupid and anyone who thinks it was a good idea or a worthy gameplay decision is an idiot. Anyone who appreciates this aspect or tries to justify it is also an idiot. I hope the ad hominen is enough to express my utter displeasure with the feature.

It's hardly a typical summon system as it directly effects class (changing abilities, stat rankings and HP/MP even). It's more of a balancing act (using correct elemental/restorative summons at the right time combined with effectively keeping your needed skills in place, plus enough HP/MP, timing, etc) that really only comes into play during boss encounters (or on the hidden Island Labyrinth).

It's hardly a balancing act as 98% of the game can be completed by simply indiscriminately casting Djins or using physical attacks. There's no strategic element to it, or at least non of the barriers are difficult enough for it ever to really become a significant consideration.

You're oversimplyfing to the point of disservice here.... which seems to be somewhat of a theme for you

I know, jarrod, you're the great defender of shitty RPGs. The world is a better place.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

No Tactics Ogre love..

A) More of a strategy game.
B) No Tactics Ogre find, let alone love.

 

[jarrod]

Hm, no. But then again, we've already argued this point before and the conclusion is the same - most JRPGs do, in fact, suck. And it's specifically because of the horrible stories and the aged past gameplay.

So what of your claim that most developers have moved on? This seems to be right in line with my claim your problem is more with the genre at large than Golden Sun in particular.... have your cake and eat it too? Golden Sun is "shitty", most RPGs are "shitty" but the RPG genre is "okay"?

A strategic decision though it may be, it's fucking horrible and anyone who thinks it was a good idea or a worthy gameplay decision is an idiot. Anyone who appreciates this aspect or tries to justify it is also an idiot. I hope the ad hominen is enough to express my utter displeasure with the feature.

It's easily justified, it was used to slow pace. Crystal clear, irregardless of whatever subjective validity it might have for anyone. Thanks for the "idiot" tantrum though, let's us all know exactly what we're dealing with here.

It's hardly a balancing act as 98% of the game can be completed by simply indiscriminately casting Djins or using physical attacks. There's no strategic element to it, or at least non of the barriers are difficult enough for it ever to really become a significant consideration.

Again, I ask how much time you've put into these games? Never made it to the Island I take it? Beacuse your claim here is entirely false...

I know, jarrod, you're the great defender of shitty RPGs. The world is a better place.

I'm not the one defending N1 shovelware.

 

[Amir0x]

So what of your claim that most developers have moved on? This seems to be right in line with my claim your problem is more with the genre at large than Golden Sun in particular.... have your cake and eat it too? Golden Sun is "shitty", most RPGs are "shitty" but the RPG genre is "okay"?

No, most RPGs with archaic gameplay are shitty. Like Golden Sun!

It's easily justified, it was used to slow pace. Crystal clear, irregardless of whatever subjective validity it might have for anyone. Thanks for the "idiot" tantrum though, let's us all know exactly what we're dealing with here.

Wow, your head ----------------------- the point.

For clarification, it is NOT a good gameplay element and the game is significantly worse for it. Period.

Again, I ask how much time you've put into these games? Never made it to the Island I take it? Beacuse your claim here is entirely false...

I beat both Golden Sun 1 and 2, although not in the completist sense like I do many games. And before you ask 'why would you play games you do not like', it's because I beat Golden Sun 1 to give the series a good chance and then certain people said Lost Age was a big improvement, so I gave that a chance (to the doom of us all, I'm sure). Plus I like Mario Golf Advance GBC/GBA, so Camelot can be good when they want to.

I'm not the one defending N1 shovelware.

No, you're defending Camelot trashware, something infinitely worse and more indefensible!

 

[akascream]

Yeah, the djinn system is pretty clever.

And I'm not entirely sure what other rpgs supposedly have broken away from the pack regarding rpg combat design. I'm still drinking ethers and I'm still standing in a line, selecting the same 'attack' or 'magic' menu buttons in Final Fantasy that I did in Final Fantasy 1. Outside of SRPGs there really isn't much strategy to combat in most of these games.

Then again, I guess the only aspect of GS that makes it archaic is attacking doesn't automatically go to the next monster if a target is killed. Not only does this promote actual thought in combat, it is more realistic. While a jrpg (non jsrpg) combat system is typically monsters in a line and players in a line, it really does represent a battlefield where the next mob isn't necessarily just standing next to his buddy waiting for you to attack in the case that your initial target is now dead. Maybe you should lose a turn as you have to make your way to another foe. Better luck next time.

 

[Amir0x]

Not only does this promote actual thought in combat, it is more realistic.

I'm sorry, what does anything in these battle systems have to do with realism? Your explanation was a huge example of straw grasping for a point that was irrelevant