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GBA Question: Golden Sun, the only great 2D RPG?

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Amir0x said:
I'm sorry, what does anything in these battle systems have to do with realism? Your explanation was a huge example of straw grasping for a point that was irrelevant :P


There has to be some kind of suspension of disbelief, some kind of explanation for powers, monsters, or it's all pretty stupid. Don't you think?
 
Your explanation was a huge example of straw grasping for a point that was irrelevant :P

And your response was a poor attempt at running from my question.

What recent jrpgs have made any advances in jrpg combat design, let alone put something like GS battle system to shame?
 
akascream said:
There has to be some kind of suspension of disbelief, some kind of explanation for powers, monsters, or it's all pretty stupid. Don't you think?

We play many of these games to escape reality or, to put it better, to escape the rules of this world. Thus physics may be exaggerated in other types of games to create stunts unable to be performed in this world.

A games purpose is to be fun. Golden Sun is not a realistic game, it has very little to do with any realistic. The feature of missing a target is not fun, therefore it missed the point of what a game is about in my opinion.

akascream said:
What recent jrpgs have made any advances in jrpg combat design, let alone put something like GS battle system to shame?

"Huge advances" are definitely subjective, but you're trying to narrow the field. If you're talkin' about JRPGs with menu based battle systems inspired by Dragon Quest in the first place, we're just going to get back to the same point - the majority of them suck ass. But there are plenty of RPGs that have awesome spins on the genre, like Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne or Digital Devil Saga.
 
Amir0x said:
We play many of these games to escape reality or, to put it better, to escape the rules of this world. Thus physics may be exaggerated in other types of games to create stunts unable to be performed in this world.

A games purpose is to be fun. Golden Sun is not a realistic game, it has very little to do with any realistic. The feature of missing a target is not fun, therefore it missed the point of what a game is about in my opinion.


You do realize that there is enough realism to promote the fantasy right? There has to be something to relate to or it isn't an escape at all. These games simulate (to some extent anyway, srpgs do a better job) combat, and there is a certain amount of realism that has to take place. Don't be so ignorant.
 
akascream said:
You do realize that there is enough realism to promote the fantasy right? There has to be something to relate to or it isn't an escape at all. These games simulate (to some extent anyway, srpgs do a better job) combat, and there is a certain amount of realism that has to take place. Don't be so ignorant.

What? Now you're just rambling incoherently. First of all, I'm sorry to inform you - ANCIENT DRAGON QUEST-ERA BATTLE SYSTEMS ARE NOT RELATABLE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. Capslock for fuckin' emphasis, man. Stop trying to justify it. You're suggesting missing an enemy makes it more realistic? What the fuck, man. That's just getting absurd.

If you're talkin' about relatable aspects in RPGs, you'll find that more in the storyline than the battle systems.
 
"Huge advances" are definitely subjective, but you're trying to narrow the field. If you're talkin' about JRPGs with menu based battle systems inspired by Dragon Quest in the first place, we're just going to get back to the same point - the majority of them suck ass.

Well no argument there. But I thought we were comparing GS to similar type (aka jrpgs) games on the gba? I'm not certain there are any 'real' role playing experiences on the handheld, let alone any that make any kind of advances in combat design.
 
Amir0x said:
What? Now you're just rambling incoherently. First of all, I'm sorry to inform you - ANCIENT DRAGON QUEST-ERA BATTLE SYSTEMS ARE NOT RELATABLE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. Capslock for fuckin' emphasis, man. Stop trying to justify it. You're suggesting missing an enemy makes it more realistic? What the fuck, man. That's just getting absurd.

If you're talkin' about relatable aspects in RPGs, you'll find that more in the storyline than the battle systems.

Wow. You aren't even worth bothering with at this point. There's a certain amount of common sense and dignity in a worthwhile conversation, and I think you've just proven this one worthless heh.
 
Amir0x said:
No, most RPGs with archaic gameplay are shitty. Like Golden Sun!
So I was correct... your "problem" is more with JRPGs at large.


Amir0x said:
Wow, your head ----------------------- the point.

For clarification, it is NOT a good gameplay element and the game is significantly worse for it. Period.
So explain to me how repeatedly tapping the A button over forced targeting strategy promotes "a good gameplay element" and would make the game significantly better? Or is "archiac" all you can think of?


Amir0x said:
I beat both Golden Sun 1 and 2, although not in the completist sense like I do many games. And before you ask 'why would you play games you do not like', it's because I beat Golden Sun 1 to give the series a good chance and then certain people said Lost Age was a big improvement, so I gave that a chance (to the doom of us all, I'm sure). Plus I like Mario Golf Advance GBC/GBA, so Camelot can be good when they want to.
It's Pokemon all over again, isn't it?


Amir0x said:
No, you're defending Camelot trashware, something infinitely worse and more indefensible!
Hey, at least Camelot is capable of something besides recycling the same middling level grind every 8 months.
 
akascream said:
Well no argument there. But I thought we were comparing GS to similar type (aka jrpgs) games on the gba? I'm not certain there are any 'real' role playing experiences on the handheld, let alone any that make any kind of advances in combat design.

Well, Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga had an interesting spin on these types of menu based battle systems, no? I mean, it's a psuedo-action based form of turn based combat. It's also more involving I find.

akascream said:
Wow. You aren't even worth bothering with at this point. There's a certain amount of common sense and dignity in a worthwhile conversation, and I think you've just proven this one worthless heh.

Dignity? You just suggested that a menu-based Dragon Quest era battle system becomes more realistic when your characters do not attack enemies you do not target. Do you realize how absurd that is?
 
Amir0x said:
Well, Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga had an interesting spin on these types of menu based battle systems, no? I mean, it's a psuedo-action based form of turn based combat. It's also more involving I find.


OMG IM TOTLY OUT OF CONTRL< SHUT UP NOW omg, you idot.

Dignity? You just suggested that a menu-based Dragon Quest era battle system becomes more realistic when your characters do not attack enemies you do not target. Do you realize how absurd that is?

I certainly wouldn't know it from your irrational responses. What a joke.
 
jarrod said:
So explain to me how repeatedly tapping the A button over forced targeting strategy promotes "a good gameplay element" and would make the game significantly better? Or is "archiac" all you can think of?

It's always going to come down to tapping A repeatably. Only now, the battle is delayed because my character missed an enemy. How wonderful. I don't want the battles to be delayed because they suck as it is.

jarrod said:
Hey, at least Camelot is capable of something besides recycling the same middling level grind every 8 months.

Perhaps, they just take longer to release the same exact game. Of course, throwing grids out the window is still a bigger jump than anything Camelot seems capable of in the Golden Sun series.

akascream said:
I certainly wouldn't know it from your irrational responses. What a joke.

Don't worry, it'll suddenly hit you and then you'll say "oh yeah, that was pretty fucking stupid."
 
Amir0x said:
It's always going to come down to tapping A repeatably. Only now, the battle is delayed because my character missed an enemy. How wonderful. I don't want the battles to be delayed because they suck as it is.
Well no wonder you have a problem with it, you're just ignoring targeting all together. "Delayed battles" would be your fault alone then, not Camelot's. Yet everyone else is the "idiot". ;)


Amir0x said:
Perhaps, they just take longer to release the same exact game. Of course, throwing grids out the window is still a bigger jump than anything Camelot seems capable of in the Golden Sun series.
Exact same game? I see plenty more variety in Camelot's game history than N1, hell they've made better SRPGs as well. A decade ago.
 
Don't worry, it'll suddenly hit you and then you'll say "oh yeah, that was pretty fucking stupid."

That's funny...I was thinking the same thing when I read this little gem.

ANCIENT DRAGON QUEST-ERA BATTLE SYSTEMS ARE NOT RELATABLE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM

Yeah, the characters aren't bipeds that strangely resemble humans. They don't stand on thier feet or live on a spherical planet. They don't eat, or sleep (no beds in jrpgs). They don't have emotional relationships that emulate any thing relatable in an way. They don't use weapons we have developed in our culture in jrpgs. There aren't war themes based on our experiences. And the fantasy, thier magic abilities and dreams of power aren't drawn directly from our culture.

Fuck dumbass, its almost ALL RELATABLE IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER.

Besides, my comment was tongue in cheek. I certainly didn't expect the kind of fit I'd have to deal with babysitting my 2 year old cousin.
 
jarrod said:
Well no wonder you have a problem with it, you're just ignoring targeting all together. "Delayed battles" would be your fault alone then, not Camelot's. Yet everyone else is the "idiot". ;)

No, see, since most competent developers have moved on from forced targeting, it is a force of habit to not have to take the extra (annoying, unnecessary, idiotic, etc...) layer into consideration. And since the battle system isn't particularly compelling in the first place, it is just another boring nail in the coffin.

jarrod said:
Exact same game? I see plenty more variety in Camelot's game history than N1, hell they've made better SRPGs as well. A decade ago.

In Camelot's game history, yes. Of course. No one is debating that. We're discussing the Golden Sun series only. That said, no Camelot has not made a superior SRPG.
 
akascream said:
Yeah, the characters aren't bipeds that strangely resemble humans. They don't stand on thier feet or live on a spherical planet. They don't eat, or sleep (no beds in jrpgs). They don't have emotional relationships that emulate any thing relatable in an way. They don't use weapons we have developed in our culture in jrpgs. There aren't war themes based on our experiences. And the fantasy, thier magic abilities and dreams of power aren't drawn directly from our culture.

Fuck dumbass, its almost ALL RELATABLE IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER.

Wow, I'm almost speechless. We went from the battle to the storyline and characters, which is exactly the whole god-damned point I tried the make. The battle system = not relatable. The story, if any good, = relatable. In real life, we do not stand around selecting things from menu and then waiting our turn when it is time to attack. I cannot cast "Phoenix Down" to revive a fallen friend. Similarly, "relating" to something is not simply a matter of being of the same freakin' race or planet. How often have you heard people say about a movie "I just couldn't relate to that character"?

Otherwise, I pretty much relate to some character in every RPG, because they eat food and live on a round planet... and swing swords around!

Seriously, I'm thinking you're slow. Or you just don't know how to relate "tounge-in-cheek" well.
 
The battle system = not relatable.

Aside from magic? Please. There are swords, guns, armor. Stats that represent us in beefed up form. Even magic was taken and has evolved from other kinds of fantasy we've enjoyed over the years. That they still stand in a line is pretty laughable, I'll give you that. But how is GS any different than any other not strategic jrpg in that respect.
 
akascream said:
Aside from magic? Please. There are swords, guns, armor. Stats that represent us in beefed up form. That they still stand in a line is pretty laughable, I'll give you that. But how is GS any different than any other not strategic jrpg in that respect.

Aside from magic? Man, what? Again, you're getting confused here. Just because someone uses similar weapons does not mean it's relatable. It's familiar, perhaps, but still not relatable. I don't fight people with swords, anyway. I don't wear battle armour. I don't cast summons or use magic or use electric swords or spiked whips or whatever. I don't stand in line and attack people. I don't select 'item' from a menu and eat muyo soup. These things might be familiar, or they might be aspects I understand. But they're not relatable, that's a different layer. Something involved more with the story, as I said.

BTW, this is not an insult. I don't even know why the battle systems should be relatable, that's the point. It's irrelevant the point about realism because it's silly :P
 
Amir0x said:
Aside from magic? Man, what? Again, you're getting confused here. Just because someone uses similar weapons does not mean it's relatable. It's familiar, perhaps, but still not relatable. I don't fight people with swords, anyway. I don't wear battle armour. I don't cast summons or use magic or use electric swords or spiked whips or whatever. I don't stand in line and attack people. I don't select 'item' from a menu and eat muyo soup. These things might be familiar, or they might be aspects I understand. But they're not relatable, that's a different layer. Something involved more with the story, as I said.

BTW, this is not an insult. I don't even know why the battle systems should be relatable, that's the point. It's irrelevant the point about realism because it's silly :P


No, we have to be able to relate or we just wouldn't care. You don't have to wear armor at your local Everquest re-enactment of the kunark expansion to know what a sword is, its history in war, and be able to relate to its use in an rpg. There is a reason that weapons in games are all weapons from our culture, or based on them in some form or another.

It's like trying to define the phrase common sense to somebody. I guess you just see the obvious or you don't.
 
akascream said:
No, we have to be able to relate or we just wouldn't care. You don't have to wear armor at your local Everquest re-enactment of the kunark expansion to know what a sword is, its history in war, and be able to relate to its use in an rpg. There is a reason that weapons in games are all weapons from our culture, or based on them in some form or another.

It's like trying to define the phrase common sense to somebody. I guess you just see the obvious or you don't.

No, because the battle system - what we're discussing - is not relatable. We don't battle like this, and we never will. And I don't know about you, but I can relate to someone using a spiky laser bullet projector as a weapon even if it has no equivalent in our world. Realism is not what causes us to relate. Much less in a game that has almost nothing to do with realism.
 
Amir0x said:
No, because the battle system - what we're discussing - is not relatable. We don't battle like this, and we never will. And I don't know about you, but I can relate to someone using a spiky laser bullet projector as a weapon even if it has no equivalent in our world. Realism is not what causes us to relate. Much less in a game that has almost nothing to do with realism.

Not only did you miss the humor in my thread, you are seriously trying to completely sever the concept of battle in a jrpg from any kind or reality whatsoever in an attempt to continue hating on a charming little game.

Well ok, you win heh. There is nothing in a jrpg that resembles reality, ESPECIALLY IN COMBAT. And Golden Sun is a horrid little game that surpases the mediocrity of every other jrpg in some unexplainable fashion.

Laters =)
 
akascream said:
Not only did you miss the humor in my thread, you are seriously trying to completely sever the concept of battle in a jrpg from any kind or reality whatsoever in an attempt to continue hating on a charming little game.

Oh, I missed the humor alright. And no, I'm not trying to sever the concept of reality from jrpgs, it's just not relatable. Which, for that matter, I have no idea why you're trying to make it so.

And no, I'm hating on the game because it sucks.

akascream said:
Well ok, you win heh. There is nothing in a jrpg that resembles reality, ESPECIALLY IN COMBAT. And Golden Sun is a horrid little game that surpases the mediocrity of every other jrpg in some unexplainable fashion.

And no, there's plenty of worse RPGs than Golden Sun. That doesn't somehow make it less mediocre/bad, does it?
 
Amir0x said:
No, see, since most competent developers have moved on from forced targeting, it is a force of habit to not have to take the extra (annoying, unnecessary, idiotic, etc...) layer into consideration. And since the battle system isn't particularly compelling in the first place, it is just another boring nail in the coffin.
No see, you're damning Camelot for their game design based on results from your own experience yet you're intentionally working against the intended design. You're simply missing the point of it, almost on purpose it seems... it really is Pokemon all over again. ;)


Amir0x said:
In Camelot's game history, yes. Of course. No one is debating that. We're discussing the Golden Sun series only.
We were? I thought I was pretty explicit in refrencing Camelot's game history, not simply Golden Sun?


Amir0x said:
That said, no Camelot has not made a superior SRPG.
Even The Sword of Hajya had more strategic design in battles than Disgaea. And Shining Force is borderline retarded as far as SRPGs go.

To Camelot's credit as well, at least they've never made a game as utterly putrid as Rhapsody either.
 
jarrod said:
To Camelot's credit as well, at least they've never made a game as utterly putrid as Rhapsody either.

Not to ignore the points, since we're basically grinding them down to dust... but this is a fitting way to end the "debate", on something we both agree on.
 
I loved Golden Sun and The Lost Age, but TLA not so much. GS has great graphics, music, atmosphere, locations, and gameplay. That's all an RPG needs. The story wasn't anything special, but I enjoyed it. TLA had a lot of wandering aimlessly wandering around, among other things, and I just didn't like it as much.
 
What's interesting is, according to the brothers who head Camelot (forgot their names), GS1 and 2 are meant to be merely introductorary stories to a bigger, very massive game. And I can definitely see the potential and the truth in that statement (not to mention further lands to explore. The ancient civilization who created the flying ship in Contigo, whose name I have forgotten, is probably still around. One of the citizens of Contigo told you a legend that when Alchemy was sealed, the civilization used psynergy to make the island fly high into the sky. In other words, the civilization still exists, way, way above the rest of the world, kind of like what happened to Soltis in SoA)

But if the next Golden Sun is even half as much of an improvement over GS2 as GS2 was over the original, we're in for a great time. :)
 
So... have we decided that there aren't any original (16-bit) FF- or PS-calibur traditional RPGs for the GBA? And will Riviera fill that void?
 
jgkspsx said:
So... have we decided that there aren't any original (16-bit) FF- or PS-calibur traditional RPGs for the GBA? And will Riviera fill that void?
Don't know about Riviera (I can only hope it will), but the answer to your first question is definitely yes. Like someone said earlier in the thread, why the hell haven't more SNES RPG's been ported to the GBA for a quick buck? I would kill for a Chrono Trigger port, and I'm not alone. GBA is the perfect system for it, too. I wouldn't want it on anything else.
 
Missed too much to try making direct quotes, so I'll just try to get to the highlights....

Djiin offer large amounts of character customizations, allowing you to pick which abilities, stats, and roles you want your various characters to fill. Many, many customizations options.

System is well balanced because the strength of you classes can only be maintained by freezing use of your best special abilities (Djiin attacks and most damaging attacks (summons).

Calling Golden Sun a "typical summon system" is absolutely absurd, it actually one of the few games that actually justifies summons by making them a central point to the battle system, and materially distinct from your regular magic.

The relationship between class/djiin/summon is a complex, multilayered system that self balances on several levels the way very few RPGs even attempt (even many of my favorites, such as VP or Grandia, which I enjoy more for the different kind of battle system, fall short of Golden Sun in this regard).

Very few people have attempted to deny this, because it's pretty hard to deny without making yourself look like an idiot (particularly when you've just spent the morning praising shallow-ass games like Mario and Luigi). So instead, the more common argument is to sidestep the issue, by saying that the game's depth is irrelevant, because the game is too easy for it to matter.

This is also really stupid.

Partially because there's a vs mode for battling in a level-nuetral zone. Partially because the game has a lot of optional bosses to add extra challenge. But most importantly because The Lost Age is a game that gives the player a very high degree of control over his levels. Random encounters are very easily evaded. I can get really overpowered in Valkyrie Profile and Tactics Ogre too, if I want. It doesn't mean anything. The ability to utilize the strengths a game's depths is far more relevent than the ability to neutralize them. In some games (FF5, FF6), you can't see this unless you really go out of your way to literally run from every fight in the game. But it doesn't take much in The Lost Age. Plus, not fighting those battles means more time to enjoy those slick dungeons!

Generally, the I consider the components of a good RPG to be-

Intersting/unique battle system
Variety of abilities and customization options to use within battle system
Balancing variables to prevent unqualified exploitation of said abiliites
Exploration + discovery (dungeons or overworld, either way)
Puzzles
The ability for the player to consider the extent to which he would like to focus on these.

The first is the only criteria The Lost Age does not meet. I can think of very few other games that do as good of a job overall. (of course, there's a lot of degrees to which a game can suceed in these categories)

Also -

The lack of carryover targeting is a good thing. When we're talking about how well a game plays, a condition which forces you to be more thoughtful with your decisions is good. The ability to just watch TV while mashing the A button is bad.

The story isn't good, but this is should only be relevant for the followers of Konex.

it really is Pokemon all over again. ;)
Oh man....berating Golden Sun is one thing, kinda tolerable in some respects...but please don't tell me anyone tried to call Pokemon shallow; that's just over the line....
 
I agree with Gruco. One of things I found rather refreshing in GS was having to actually become intimately familiar with my characters and the enemies they fought. Eventually I came to innately consider every round, and in a span of a split second, decide which of my power hitters would focus on which enemies, and which of my weaker attackers would follow up and hopefully finish off a foe. I took pleasure in absolutely minimizing my "ineffectual" attacks, as I believe FF1 used to put it when you attacked a dead target. And yes, though most of the regular battles (unless you purposefully entered an out of depth area, something that was totally enjoyable in TLA in particular), didn't require any inherent strategy to win, I certainly had a good time considering all of the above instead of just mashing A through every fight while watching TV...
 
Gruco said:
Missed too much to try making direct quotes, so I'll just try to get to the highlights....

Djiin offer large amounts of character customizations, allowing you to pick which abilities, stats, and roles you want your various characters to fill. Many, many customizations options.

System is well balanced because the strength of you classes can only be maintained by freezing use of your best special abilities (Djiin attacks and most damaging attacks (summons).

Calling Golden Sun a "typical summon system" is absolutely absurd, it actually one of the few games that actually justifies summons by making them a central point to the battle system, and materially distinct from your regular magic.

Again, in the main game there's simply no motivation to care how much the penalties affect anything, since everything is too easy. I can indiscriminately (again, oversimplification... but not because things do actually get difficult, only because there are cases when I have to choose specific Dijiins due to effectiveness...) cast my Djiins at all the major bosses and beat almost everything that way. Alternatively, I can just get through by a combination of physical attacks and magic.

Gruco said:
The relationship between class/djiin/summon is a complex, multilayered system that self balances on several levels the way very few RPGs even attempt (even many of my favorites, such as VP or Grandia, which I enjoy more for the different kind of battle system, fall short of Golden Sun in this regard).

Very few people have attempted to deny this, because it's pretty hard to deny without making yourself look like an idiot (particularly when you've just spent the morning praising shallow-ass games like Mario and Luigi). So instead, the more common argument is to sidestep the issue, by saying that the game's depth is irrelevant, because the game is too easy for it to matter.

We discussed depth vs. Phantom Brave, not vs. Mario and Luigi (which is shallow). However, Mario and Luigi has a better battle system because it just happens to be more fun and interactive, independent from depth in this case (action based commands being the crux). Which is the whole point.

Gruco said:
This is also really stupid.

Partially because there's a vs mode for battling in a level-nuetral zone. Partially because the game has a lot of optional bosses to add extra challenge. But most importantly because The Lost Age is a game that gives the player a very high degree of control over his levels. Random encounters are very easily evaded. I can get really overpowered in Valkyrie Profile and Tactics Ogre too, if I want. It doesn't mean anything. The ability to utilize the strengths a game's depths is far more relevent than the ability to neutralize them. In some games (FF5, FF6), you can't see this unless you really go out of your way to literally run from every fight in the game. But it doesn't take much in The Lost Age. Plus, not fighting those battles means more time to enjoy those slick dungeons!

Being easy is entirely the point, because what purpose is there to scour the depths of the system if you can just beat everything by using your moves indiscriminately when the "big" fights come? This is what it comes down to. In good games with well thought out systems, the game forces you to utilize the strategic nature of the system to progress. Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne illustrates this point wonderfully.

In other words, the joy is in using the battle to defeat your foes. The best systems require true strategic thought to progress. The worst ones have that depth, but simply provide no drive to utilize it (although you make a decent point about vs. mode in level-neutral, as that could be considered a drive... although the battle system isn't particularly compelling enough for me to engage in much of that).

Gruco said:
Oh man....berating Golden Sun is one thing, kinda tolerable in some respects...but please don't tell me anyone tried to call Pokemon shallow; that's just over the line....

It's tolerable because Golden Sun sucks. I didn't call Pokemon shallow (incidentally, I haven't really called Golden Sun shallow either. Just boring and archaic), I said the series simply hasn't progressed enough over the years for me to give a fuck. Oh, some people tried to argue about the different levels of change that really come out dramtically in vs. battling, but for me the series has stayed too much in the same place. I would like a fundamental change in the series moving forward, but I doubt I'll see that since the series sells five billion copies. (Edit: Let us not get into a Pokemon debate)
 
Again, in the main game there's simply no motivation to care how much the penalties affect anything, since everything is too easy.

Being easy is entirely the point, because what purpose is there to scour the depths of the system if you can just beat everything by using your moves indiscriminately when the "big" fights come? This is what it comes down to. In good games with well thought out systems, the game forces you to utilize the strategic nature of the system to progress.
The reason I think the ease is irrelevant is because going through the game, I used the random combat avoid ability to keep my level low. I knew it'd bring out the game's strengths in a boss fight, and aditionally it would allow me to get more involved in the dungeons without distractions. This is a lot like combat cancelling in Wild Arms, or freezer crystals in VP.

I generally do like it when a game is challenging enough for force you to use everything it has to offer, but I don't agree that it should be...err..."compulsory difficulty or bust" on the matter. As long as the game gives you the freedom regarding your levels to stay low enough to enjoy what is has to offer, without going too far out of your way (too far would be something like running from every battle), that's good enough.

(Edit: Let us not get into a Pokemon debate)
Haha....happy to save it for when Diamond and Pearl info comes along. :)
 
Gruco said:
The reason I think the ease is irrelevant is because going through the game, I used the random combat avoid ability to keep my level low. I knew it'd bring out the game's strengths in a boss fight, and aditionally it would allow me to get more involved in the dungeons without distractions. This is a lot like combat cancelling in Wild Arms, or freezer crystals in VP.

I generally do like it when a game is challenging enough for force you to use everything it has to offer, but I don't agree that it should be...err..."compulsory difficulty or bust" on the matter. As long as the game gives you the freedom regarding your levels to stay low enough to enjoy what is has to offer, without going too far out of your way (too far would be something like running from every battle), that's good enough.

This sounds a lot like one of those "don't exploit weaknesses in the game design, utilize self-control" arguments, which I always feel are pretty lame. But I understand your point, I just think the best games force it upon you. And I don't mean force as "oh, it's not something I want to do anyway", I just mean the game is inherently difficult enough to provide that motivation where I say "ok, it's probably a good idea to really become familiar with just how deep the combat goes."

But it's obvious we just take a different approach to the way we play games, which don't make either of us particularly wrong except in perspective.

Gruco said:
Haha....happy to save it for when Diamond and Pearl info comes along. :)

With touching... maybe I'll get to pet Pikachu ;)
 
But it's obvious we just take a different approach to the way we play games, which don't make either of us particularly wrong except in perspective.

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Even though it's been said, Golden Sun is trash!

If you count SRPGs, Tactics Ogre: KoL is the best handheld 2D RPG.

Otherwise, it's either Final Fantasy Legend III or maybe Golden Age 2.

Now that I think about it, the handhelds haven't had any really good traditional RPGs. Some absolutely amazing SRPGs (TO:KoL, FFTA, FE) but not really much in the way of good traditional RPGs.
 
I'm playing Golden Sun again right now and I dont think I ever appreciated how awesome it was the first time round (I never finished it before though).

Graphics and sound leave FFIV for dead, awesome atmosphere, looks really vibrant on the Micro screen - this is probably the best RPG I've played in aaaages. I've got GS2 here in its box waiting for me to finish this one as well, cant wait to get into it. I havent been this excited about a game in yonks, let alone an old game that Ive started once before.

Imo, best portable RPG ever. :)
 
I enjoted Golden Sun immensely, but to claim that there are no other good RPGs for the system is just plain wrong. traditional RPGs, yes, but RPGs in general, no.
 
Personally, I thought the Golden Sun games were amazing. Best portable RPG's I've ever played. Especially GS2. The world was so damn huge, expecially for a GBA game. I have a real thing for exploring in games though, and that was a big part of the GS games. I can see why some people might not like it...

I'd love to see what Square Enix could do with the series on the DS. It could turn out amazing. :) (sweet lord, now that I think about it, it could be amazing... pleeeeeeeeaaase make it happen)
 
Golden Sun is atrocious.

Every fight sans bosses can be won by simply attacking, the only strategy is setting up your attacks so that you don't whiff, something that shouldn't happen in a modern game.

Boss fights are also easy, just unleash all your djinn, heal, rinse and repeat. On my second playthrough I never deviated from this methodology. I also never used a healing item or inn over the course of the game.

The story is kinda eh, some parts aren't bad but I hate the main characters because they're morons total. Stories revolving around the idiot prinicple are bleh. Also the silent protagonist stuff is kind of dumb. It doesn't help that the writing treats you like your five.

Graphics were nice enough, and the puzzles were ok but not good enough to save me from the horrible combat scheme. Djinn are a cool idea on paper but didn't execute that well.

I'd say 6/10, maybe a 7/10.

Mother 3 is way more fun when it comes to 2d portable RPGs. If I was good at the battle system I'd probably rate it even higher than Golden Sun than I already do.
 
Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga is pretty kewl.

So is DemiKids.

Also, whoever posted directly above me, I hope you get hit by a cancer truck, and die...then a necrophile will come and dig you up, then rape your eye sockets.

bluemax said:
Except the battles are so easy there's no point in doing anything but mashing your way through them. Having you miss just slows the pace of the game down.

Geez I didn't realize this discussion was a million years old.

I hope you get hit by a cancer truck and die, then a necrophile comes and rapes your face.

EDIT: I love you ;_;
 
While i agree that the original golden sucked, amirox complaining about missing enemies is idiotic. It just shows you some people like to mash their way battles etc. Stick to Progress Quest.
 
Monk said:
While i agree that the original golden sucked, amirox complaining about missing enemies is idiotic. It just shows you some people like to mash their way battles etc. Stick to Progress Quest.

Except the battles are so easy there's no point in doing anything but mashing your way through them. Having you miss just slows the pace of the game down.

Geez I didn't realize this discussion was a million years old.
 
bluemax said:
Except the battles are so easy there's no point in doing anything but mashing your way through them. Having you miss just slows the pace of the game down.

Geez I didn't realize this discussion was a million years old.

The game doesnt magically get better if you didn't miss. The game is sub par period.
 
It's the little touches in handheld games that i love. For example, the database in MMZX informing you that an enemy was built using modified vending machine technology. :lol

GS is also pretty good in that aspect - there's a unique text line for just about every single stove, worddrobe, bookshelf, etc throughout the world. The devs really wanted to realize it.

And of course, the music is great. (Shame about the hardware, though. I wish there was an OST I could get my hands on.)
 
Fusebox said:
Where does all the Mother 3 love come from? Isnt the game in Japanese??

Some of us aren't hindered by language barriers as much as others.

Fusebox said:
It has a 91% total at Metacritic, that seems quite above par.

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/gba/goldensun?q=golden sun

Its the little touches about GS I love, like being able to progress character text with the left shoulder button ... Phoenix Wright please pay attention.

A lot of that was hype, hell I was excited for GS when it came out too.

GS may have got a few little touches but there were so many big things it completelly whiffed on.
 
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