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[Lombax]

so much bullshit about a complete and total non-issue.

 

[B-Dex]

People have been ranting about female designs for years, it just never quite boiled up tot he top of the community till pretty recently.

I remember plenty of snark for old RPGs with fanservicy characters back in the day. Remember when Champions of Norrath had a girly calender as a pre-order bonus, along with scores of jiggling, scantly clad girls in game? there was quite a bit of folks who commented negatively about all that.

Don't remember that calendar but the Champions games were amazing.

Only image I could find of the calendar:

 

[Metrotab]

I think most of us realize this is a problem but we don't think this game is the right target.

This game is in fact a wrong target, because all three of its female characters have wildly different character designs, with a different philosophy behind them. There has been put thought into characters, which is what I assumed (and still think) feminists want.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I don't think you get to work at Gearbox and call anyone else in the industry a 5th grader.

This is not really to insult Gearbox's games. Just putting it in perspective.

 

[twobear]

I don't think sexualised characters should fall to those same standards of acceptability, especially not in the context of a niche project.

That's good! That's the debate that people should be having, whether it should be held to the same standard. The issue is that people try to dismiss that discussion by pretending that it's about free speech, censorship, the supposed right of an artist to not have their work criticised (lol), etc.

 

[Dictator93]

Reads like a YouTube comment.

.

 

[DecoyOctopus]

New lows hit here. Even for GAF.

Not really...

Everyone was ok with it in the other thread...double standards...

 

[i-Lo]

This game is in fact a wrong target, because all three of its female characters have wildly different character designs, with a different philosophy behind them. There has been put thought into characters, which is what I assumed (and still think) feminists want.

And this is the true nail in the coffin. One unrealistically hyper sexualized and empowered character neither represents the sum total of his work nor should it have earned him the vitriol and name calling. Then again Kotaku gonna kotaku and a Gearbox employee gonna try and deflect and distract from Gearbox's current lawsuit issue.

Not really...

Everyone was ok with it in the other thread...double standards...

Wait what. lol.....

Do you even know the context?

 

[BocoDragon]

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from criticism or consequence, it just means no government censorship. The rest of us are more then free to rip them a new one, so to speak.

Yes you are right, and I am free, in turn, to call the complaints illegitimate.

 

[twofold]

Industry veteran Art director with a unique style that's heading up his own games...vs some dime a dozen zbrush slave that works for shithouse gearbox of all places.

Is this real life?

If she's just a "dime a dozen zbrush slave", then why are people even giving her attention in the first place?

This thread is embarrassing. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I think most of us realize this is a problem but we don't think this game is the right target.

Yeah. It feels like opposite day for me, considering I'm usually one of the ones arguing about sexism in games. I just can't see why Dragon's Crown is the target and not, I dunno, nearly every AAA game with a female character in it. There is some straight up stupid sexist garbage in a lot of games, but it just seems weird to pile onto Dragon's Crown. I'm surprised Far Cry 3 got by so unscathed.

It's especially weird given that the sorceress is one character in the game, not the entirety of how it portrays women.

Also, people attacking the artist in the OP's comments because of her looks? WWOOOOOOOWWWWWW.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Don't remember that calendar but the Champions games were amazing.

Only image I could find of the calendar:

You know whats funny? the girls in the calendar actually wore, at times, more then they did in game.

The vampire dark elf in particular, was just silly. Lots of kiggle, and in game she was wearing basically pasties and a gold thong.

The game had ridiculous levels of T&A in it, but then again, so did the BG dark alliance games.

Always wondered why neather had a entry this gen. A new CoN set in the EQ next universe woudl be a fine game for the vita or ps4.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Yes you are right, and I am free, in turn, to call the complaints illegitimate.

True, but a lot of folks seem to think that by criticizing X, we are somehow censoring X. I see this every day, not just in this debate.

 

[BluePigGanon]

Fuck Kotaku for making this an issue, buncha of low life hacks.

Kinda this. I'm so tried of this topic, which is a shame because in a general way it is worth talking about. I lay the blame on Kotaku: they kicked it off with entirely the wrong tone, selecting entirely the wrong whipping boy. It's really hard to course-correct after that.

Now I'm at the point where I'd like everyone to leave it alone, and then a few months from now reboot.

 

[pants]

I find it amusing that people cannot see the entire picture when it comes to dragon's crown's character art. And so goes another amusing episode of -rustle some jimmies- brought to you by dragon's crown.

Hilarious that someone who (i suppose) worked on Borderlands and Duke Nukem thinks they are somehow better than (their silly projected reality of) Dragon's Crown

 

[Aokage]

I want to punch this person. (Oh, turns out she's a girl? Apologies and downgrade punching to friendly ribbing. Also I dig the touch of furry streak in your portfolio.)

Nevertheless,

Dragon's Crown is hands down THE most beautiful game this year (well, tossup between Infinite but they can't really be compared).

Don't get me wrong. Gearbox has superb art direction.

But to dismiss it based on one character? Like the Knight isn't just as burly a male stereotype? The Wizard isn't a bishonen trope?

This is high fantasy on purpose, folks, Kamitani isn't trying to break new ground aesthetically. Go play his Capcom D&D games and you'll see exactly what he's going for: Pulp fantasy. Frazetta-style.

And that is a valid choice.

 

[RobotRocker]

Industry veteran Art director with a unique style that's heading up his own games...vs some dime a dozen zbrush slave that works for shithouse gearbox of all places.

Is this real life?

No, it's actually delirious fantasy where terrible people are getting up in arms about a non-story and someone having an opinion who's apparently not allowed to do so because of some absurd neo-caste which declares their comments invalid because she's just a "zbrush slave" and "worked on Borderlands".

Which has made the thread make the Forza Vs GT thread look like a haven of sane posting.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Playing catchup on the thread, but it seems the point she was trying to make was that the sexualized character designs will put women off to this game, and gaming altogether as a hobby.

My wife doesn't play games, so I showed her the sorceress character. Her response was as follows:

"Cool, what type of magic can she do?"

So then I explained to her the controversey and what this Gearbox artist had to say. Her response was as follows:

"It's a fantasy game, I mean, putting aside that an artist is bashing someone else's art, I have more of a problem with someone generalizing all women to say we would or should be offended by it. Also its art, so you are telling others they shouldn't appreciate it because you're projecting some meaning that's not there. It's messed up. Did it get cancelled?"

Me: No

Wife: "Good, it's a stupid argument."

Your wife is awesome. I find it slightly ironic that the most reasonable post in the last few pages comes from someone who neither plays games nor even posts on GAF. Or perhaps it's not so much ironic as a sign that we're not the best group of people that should be having a discussion about this.

 

[Schobeleth]

Yeah. It feels like opposite day for me, considering I'm usually one of the ones arguing about sexism in games. I just can't see why Dragon's Crown is the target and not, I dunno, nearly every AAA game with a female character in it. There is some straight up stupid sexist garbage in a lot of games, but it just seems weird to pile onto Dragon's Crown. I'm surprised Far Cry 3 got by so unscathed.

It's especially weird given that the sorceress is one character in the game, not the entirety of how it portrays women.

Also, people attacking the artist in the OP's comments because of her looks? WWOOOOOOOWWWWWW.

People were attacking her because of her looks? I posted on page one and came back to like... page 15 so I missed a lot. I don't feel like reading it all, my head will start spinning :\

 

[Masked Devil]

Thanks Kotaku. I'm glad people think of the stupid controversy they've drummed up rather than the beautifully animated/ fun game it'll no doubt be.
F*cking PC Police

 

[Salaadin]

People were attacking her because of her looks? I posted on page one and came back to like... page 15 so I missed a lot. I don't feel like reading it all, my head will start spinning :\

I think one guy did. It was his third post on gaf ever and he was banned shortly after.

 

[faceless007]

Yeah. It feels like opposite day for me, considering I'm usually one of the ones arguing about sexism in games. I just can't see why Dragon's Crown is the target and not, I dunno, nearly every AAA game with a female character in it. There is some straight up stupid sexist garbage in a lot of games, but it just seems weird to pile onto Dragon's Crown.

It's especially weird given that the sorceress is one character in the game, not the entirety of how it portrays women.

The extent to which Dragon's Crown has been controversial has been almost entirely a function of people reacting to perceived outrage rather than many people being legitimately offended by it. The "controversy" directed at Dragon's Crown has consisted of:

• A snarky, insulting two-paragraph blog post on Kotaku with an explicit call to stop
• A handful of message board posters criticizing the style but not calling for censorship
• This forum post from a Gearbox employee criticizing the style but not calling for censorship

If that's what constitutes "dogpiling" and "censorship" then we might as well nuke every message board on the Internet. If that's all it takes to make people feel irrationally attacked and get on the defensive over something that they aren't even associated with, then the outrage truly is misplaced, but not in the way they think it is.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

To the best of my knowledge it's not illegal to put a blackfaced minstrel in a movie now, but nobody does it.

Granted, he wasn't singing.

 

[BocoDragon]

True, but a lot of folks seem to think that by criticizing X, we are somehow censoring X. I see this every day, not just in this debate.

What do you expect? By criticizing it it seems to imply "this shouldn't exist" even if we know that you aren't actually gathering all the copies in the square and burning them.

And you know what? Dragon's Crown - and many things with similar content- should exist, as they are now, untouched.

Even the suggestion that its wrong from a feminist standpoint makes me bristle. It's normal, it's healthy entertainment, it serves a need in the human experience.

In my ideal world, this game exists side by side with all the progressive content that anyone in this thread ever dreamed of.

Attacking something that people actually might like is going to harm your point, every time. Focus on what you want to see, because hating on what you don't will just launch you into a battle with those who enjoy it.

 

[Trike]

Yeah, it kinda sucks that overly sexualized art is preventing more women from playing games. Good thing Gearbox is tried to remedy this with "Girlfriend Mode" in Borderlands 2.

But damn, still sucks about Dragon's Crown ruining it for everyone. Now women won't buy a Vita like all the men are =(

 

[eudaemonic]

Wife: "It's a fantasy game, I mean, putting aside that an artist is bashing someone else's art, I have more of a problem with someone generalizing all women to say we would or should be offended by it. Also its art, so you are telling others they shouldn't appreciate it because you're projecting some meaning that's not there. It's messed up. Did it get cancelled?"

Me: No

Wife: "Good, it's a stupid argument."

*applauds* Well said.

 

[Metrotab]

The extent to which Dragon's Crown has been controversial has been almost entirely a function of people reacting to perceived outrage rather than many people being legitimately offended by it. The "controversy" directed at Dragon's Crown has consisted of:

• A snarky, insulting two-paragraph blog post on Kotaku with an explicit call to stop
• A handful of message board posters criticizing the style but not calling for censorship
• This forum post from a Gearbox employee criticizing the style but not calling for censorship

If that's what constitutes "dogpiling" and "censorship" then we might as well nuke every message board on the Internet. If that's all it takes to make people feel irrationally attacked and get on the defensive over something that they aren't even associated with, then the outrage truly is misplaced, but not in the way they think it is.

"Criticizing the style" is a very underwhelming way to describe calling the character design "sexist, mysoginistic, puberal, juvenile, for neckbeard otaku".

This game deserves better, and deserves defending against such low-hitting descriptions. The character design is genuine art, from a genuine auteur.

 

[Freshmaker]

no sorceress gifs yet? we need to have the evidence on the table.

The amazon's far stupider than the sorceress.

 

[faceless007]

What do you expect? By criticizing it it seems to imply "this shouldn't exist" even if we know that you aren't actually gathering all the copies in the square and burning them.

Better shut down NeoGAF. And all message boards. And all user review sections. Actually the entire concept of reviews altogether.

 

[-PXG-]

There's constructive criticism and straight shit talking. She did the latter. As an employed professional artist, she should know better.

Kamitani's style is open to debate. Of course. Art is subjective. People have every right to not like his work. However, I don't think anyone could question his craftsmanship. Calling him a sexist or a misogynist is absolutely ridiculous.

No...really. It is. So please. Shut the fuck up.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I don't think the discussion that happened around Dragon's Crown recently has tried to target the issues regarding sexism but more so focusing explicitly on a physical asset of one character. I don't think that's a healthy way to frame an issue that's supposed to encompass the whole industry.

Actually someone made a thread the other day for people to post representations of female characters and attractive male characters that they liked and to discuss them. I think that such a thread was taking the discussion in a positive direction but it was locked with no explanation.

Maybe future discussions will be framed in a way that naturally leads to informative intercourse, or maybe not. I don't think the way it has been done recently helps foster good discussion though.

 

[stufte]

Having never seen the game beyond the crying fits I've seen on here and Kotaku, I decided to go take a look at the game.

Holy shit! Seriously one of the more uniquely styled games to come out in a long time. I'm not sure what everyone is so upset about, but now that this game is on my radar, I'm definitely going to be purchasing it. Looks super fun.

 

[zoukka]

The amazon's far stupider than the sorceress.

One of them has an impossible figure

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I'm a bit late to this again but the shit like that banned poster did is uncalled for. What she looks like has no place in this argument even though I think he's wrong and she's actually pretty cute looking I think. Anyway that makes one no better then those launching personal insults at this artist. That's an uncalled for attack and beyond childish.

That is one thing that really does piss me off. She was guilty of it too. You can criticize someone without being an insulting dick. That's something more people need to remember.

 

[Metrotab]

What do you expect? By criticizing it it seems to imply "this shouldn't exist" even if we know that you aren't actually gathering all the copies in the square and burning them.

And you know what? Dragon's Crown - and many things with similar content- should exist, as they are now, untouched.

Even the suggestion that its wrong from a feminist standpoint makes me bristle. It's normal, it's healthy entertainment, it serves a need in the human experience.

In my ideal world, this game exists side by side with all the progressive content that anyone in this thread ever dreamed of.

Attacking something that people actually might like is going to harm your point, every time. Focus on what you want to see, because hating on what you don't will just launch you into a battle with those who enjoy it.

As a feminist, and general lover of art, Dragon's Crown is the kind of game I want to see. People putting thought into their lore, universe, characters etc. This game is doing things right but it's getting punished for not doing the "right kind of right". That's incredibly sad to see, as I expect more from people who present themselves as knowledgeable on these kinds of deconstructions.

 

[BocoDragon]

Better shut down NeoGAF. And all message boards. And all user review sections. Actually the entire concept of reviews altogether.

That misses the subtlety of what I'm saying. No one thinks anything is immune to criticism.

But saying "this game is offensive and bad 'for the industry'" is implicitly a statement implying "it shouldn't exist - not like this"

You don't have to actually be censoring it for people to respond in defense of the game's existence.

 

[antitrop]

I wonder if all this negative publicity might end up helping the game.

I would incredibly surprised if this is not the best selling Vanillware title after a reasonable period of time.

Granted, he wasn't singing.

Parody is quite the caveat. It's pretty obvious that people are more accepting of parodical material than anything meant to be taken entirely serious.

 

[Bobs Big Boy]

Better to focus on the art than the artist. No need to make criticism personal and when it is, it's focused on the wrong thing. The person's never the good thing to criticize.

 

[NoirVisage]

The amazon's far stupider than the sorceress.

you've got it right!

 

[Xenon]

All this controversy over character art with proportions that would make Chris Liefeld cringe, I don't get it. It looks like something from an otaku's wet dream. The art is pretty bad, IMO. The color and shading in it however, is spectacular.

 

[Schobeleth]

As a feminist, and general lover of art, Dragon's Crown is the kind of game I want to see. People putting thought into their lore, universe, characters etc. This game is doing things right but it's getting punished for not doing the "right kind of right". That's incredibly sad to see, as I expect more from people who present themselves as knowledgeable on these kinds of deconstructions.

You are speaking much more truth and reason than most of the people I've seen, especially the writers and devs who are slamming it for its art style, or even Kamitani himself by calling it juvenile, pedophilia, neckbeard material, etc. The terms I've seen flying around are pretty hateful and can easily offend people who just enjoy this type of fantasy art.

 

[Freshmaker]

I find it hilarious there is a new "debate/issue" with dragon's crown's character designs almost everyday.

Fironia Vie from Everquest never got this much vitriol but I guess she didn't have a D+ cupsize so nobody cared?

No, that's been a discussion that's been ongoing for years. Not really centered around that character though. Just the absurdity of fantasy women's armor always taking the form of a metal bikini.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Bringing up the artist's pictures was in poor taste and irrelevant to her argument.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Kind of incredible how much publicity this game is getting because of those tits. Kamitani must be overjoyed.

 

[faceless007]

That misses the subtlety of what I'm saying. No one thinks anything is immune to criticism.

But saying "this game is offensive and bad 'for the industry'" is implicitly a statement implying "it shouldn't exist - not like this"

You don't have to actually be censoring it for people to respond in defense of the game's existence.

I want to make it emphatically clear I'm not talking about Dragon's Crown.

Hypothetically, could you imagine a work being made in any medium that is legitimately offensive and bad for its industry? Could you imagine a work being actually, unapologetically, sexist or racist or catering to bigotry in a glaringly heinous way?

Would you still say no one should criticize the work on those grounds?

If not, then we are merely haggling over when such criticism is valid and when it isn't.

If so, then you are arguing that we as thinking people should abdicate our ability to form opinions and issue criticism of harmful ideas because it might actually have an effect somewhere. This seems to me precisely the opposite way to think about the value of criticism.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I find it hilarious there is a new "debate/issue" with dragon's crown's character designs almost everyday.

Fironia Vie from Everquest never got this much vitriol but I guess she didn't have a D+ cupsize so nobody cared?

I think there have been a countless number of threads about the of problematic depiction of women in video games in general. There was a female armor discussion thread here not too long ago, for example, where a lot of the same complaints and frustrations were voiced.

The Sorceress here gets an unusual amount of attention in proportion to the unusual proportion of her proportions.

 

[Raziel]

It's okay, Borderlands is intended for the well-adjusted 6th grader.

 

[benzy]

This looks retarded and generic as fuck.

 

[Takiyah]

Even the suggestion that its wrong from a feminist standpoint makes me bristle. It's normal, it's healthy entertainment, it serves a need in the human experience.

How is the mere suggestion that it is wrong from any stand point make you bristle? There is a painful serious issue with misogyny in the games industry, and this issue actually seems to serve as a great talking point.

 

[Incendiary]

Kind of incredible how much publicity this game is getting because of those tits.

What's weird to me is the sudden surge of publicity the game's getting. Wasn't the initial Dragon's Crown trailer released like...last year sometime? Didn't it show off the sorceress then? Why is it all of a sudden now that the comments over it are popping up all over the place?