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Gearbox Artist trashes Dragons Crown art style
- Thread starter ArtHands
- Start date
Kotaku wrote an aweful 'article' about the trailer, insulting the art director.
Was there any discussion about Tera's armour designs on gaf? I find the men in that game just as overtly sexualized as the women.
You can fry an egg on those abs.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I do seem to remember people laughing at Tera for that reason before.
Knux-Future
Banned
Because it destroys any good talking point because of the insults and the fact that the design is the way it is for legit reasons.
This game is the wrong target and thus using as a starting point is stupid and has made the entire topic toxic.
Look how many people are tired of talking about it? They isn't good for what is a good cause. People know there should be change... But targeting the wrong thing can and has made that message muddled.
True Underdog
Member
Well yeah but you can see in the rest of my post that I don't think this should be made into a big deal, either.
spandexmonkey
Banned
You're kind of stretching there. This is more like depicting a black person as good at basketball or Asian as a martial artist in film. Those are stereotypes that may not necessarily be harmful, but are pretty prevalent and limiting.
If the sorceress were made deliberately weaker, forced into the role of whore or damsel to be rescued, etc. Then that would be closer to the bigotry in prior art.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I actually agree with you. These conversations need to happen, and they are part of what will open up the industry to new progressive characterizations. There's a part of me that recognizes that.
But in regards to Dragon's Crown specifically, simply put: it's fine and just that this type of game exists for the niche who wants it.
If the conversation is "Can we have something that isn't like the sexualization in Dragon's Crown?", then its fair enough.
If the conversation is "Dragon's Crown is bad and people shouldn't make anything like it at all", then I think we have a problem...
Dragons Crown was shown at E3 2011. Its been a loooong time.
Theyve been showing character trailers every week for a few weeks now to showcase each characters abilities. The week they showed the Sorceress was when this all started.
Youre correct in that there wasnt a lot of talk about it until now...which is kinda funny. Theyre practically advertising it now.
If they did this 2 years ago before it went MIA, Im sure everyone would have forgotten about it by now.
True, but the current problem we're sitting in here isn't the overtly sexualization (is that a world?) of men, or by extension, the absolute barren wasteland of woman in the video game development.
Nobody really paid attention to Tera's sexualization because everyone was too busy defending or fighting against the controversial Elin censorship.
Pyrrhus
Member
Man, that's dumb. Pinching chainmail in direct contact with your pubes and testicles seems like a recipe for pain. Then again, what am I saying? Most of the weapons in games like this look like they're better suited for killing yourself than the enemy. Of course the armor's going to follow suit.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
"Also, this is the first time I've seen that character and holy shit, ahahahahahaha. That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol! Some juvenile delinquent kid in my 5th grade class used to draw girls that looked like that (only without the creepy blank, featureless samefaces and wizard hats), and I think he was actually better at it. I also think he's in jail now. This is amazing."
Some fucking opinion, a little professional decorum please.
HollovVpo1nt
Banned
Man Gearbox can't catch a break. From releasing Duke Nukem to cheating their way into the funding of Borderlands, I dislike the company. I wonder how people can get Adam Orth, an insignificant guy fired but continue to let themselves be screwed by Gearbox. Boycott this fucking fucking company.
Was this even considered "news" before the NeoGAF thread? Destructoid mentions the GAF thread, and another website (Wegotthiscovered) even sources this thread for the story.
Here's the thing, this didn't seem to be a big deal on the internet until after this thread was started. This is a thread about a person who has an opinion, this person is an Environment Artist at Gearbox, not Gearbox. This person presumably posted their own opinion on an internet forum on their free time. The content of their opinion doesn't matter. It's their opinion, if you think it's stupid that's fine, if you think it's correct, that's fine too. This whole thing is pretty damn close to going to any forum, NeoGAF included, and starting a thread about how you think something some other poster said is stupid. The only difference here is that this person is one of the buttload of people working at Gearbox.
The ironic thing here is this: Kotaku didn't bring this to you, seemingly no news website did. You guys went out of your way to find something someone said to be mad about. And now it's news.
Here's the thing, this didn't seem to be a big deal on the internet until after this thread was started. This is a thread about a person who has an opinion, this person is an Environment Artist at Gearbox, not Gearbox. This person presumably posted their own opinion on an internet forum on their free time. The content of their opinion doesn't matter. It's their opinion, if you think it's stupid that's fine, if you think it's correct, that's fine too. This whole thing is pretty damn close to going to any forum, NeoGAF included, and starting a thread about how you think something some other poster said is stupid. The only difference here is that this person is one of the buttload of people working at Gearbox.
The ironic thing here is this: Kotaku didn't bring this to you, seemingly no news website did. You guys went out of your way to find something someone said to be mad about. And now it's news.
HappyHunting
Neo Member
Agreed. Using sexualization of men to counter-point (and or defend) Dragon's Crown is counter-productive to any actual conversation to be had. There is nothing wrong with the art style the artist chose to use in my opinion thusly no need to defend it.
Using Dragon's Crown as a lightning rod for this issue is what is causing the toxic nature of discussion. We can all agree that there is a disproportionate amount of non-sexualized female characters in games to sexualized. Yes it limits the choices of those who do not agree with the afformentioned art... we need to discuss how we can change that.
I really have to disagree. Perhaps the way the topic was broached was incorrect, but in fact it *is* a talking point. Shit, anything can be a talking point. For example, it could be a talk point such as:
This is an example that for me, personally speaking, is too far. Have I played games where woman are dressed in scantily clothes, no doubt. Do I enjoy games with woman who look good? Sure. So where is the line with me? Where is the line where I say - ok - this artist's rendition is un-tasteful to me - this is my line.
Should anyone give a shit about my talking point? Probably not. But I think it is a very appropriate talking point.
CambriaRising
Member
No one got him fired.
Yes, but is there anything wrong with that?
It is when people are complaining about Dragon's Crown art criticism being news in the first place.
Moral Panic
Member
Because people keep defending it. If people just said, "meh, I like it" no one would give two shits. Instead we have the "what about the men!!!", "why this game??", "x likes it she's a woman", "censorship", "white knights" and other remarks. None of these are anything close to a good argument as to why this game is so sacred that any criticism against it is some sort of blasphemy. Now we are at the "she's only saying this because she's ugly" which is simply a natural evolution of the malice and vitriol spewed at anyone who speaks out against the established order. People wonder why there are few women and minorities in geek subcultures such as gaming and comics and this situation encapsulates the very essence of the reason why.
Devolution
Member
What talking point? Insulting Dragon's Crown and the creator? Making it the whipping boy for a whole slew of issues it doesn't even have anything to do with? Yeah sure.
CambriaRising
Member
Did those people make threads about it to point it out?
If they did, I haven't seen them.
One asshole comes in and brings up her looks, and now we are all persecuted for it?
You aren't the only one who has done this, but jesus christ people.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The funny thing is.. this conversation sets me off, even though:
1. I'm not particularly titillated (pun intended) or endeared to that character design and..
2. If I were making a game I already envision making it with very non-sexualized and cool heroines
It's just that questioning the right of certain art-styles to exist, which rather implies that content should be self-policed for PC reasons, scares me a bit.
I so want diversity of content in this industry, not a narrowing of content. Ironically I think that's the common end goal of both sides to this argument.
1. I'm not particularly titillated (pun intended) or endeared to that character design and..
2. If I were making a game I already envision making it with very non-sexualized and cool heroines
It's just that questioning the right of certain art-styles to exist, which rather implies that content should be self-policed for PC reasons, scares me a bit.
I so want diversity of content in this industry, not a narrowing of content. Ironically I think that's the common end goal of both sides to this argument.
I wasn't defending or making a counter-point. It just seems silly to me that Dragon's Crown blows up over this issue when other games barely got mentions for their content.
Kotaku is full of hypocrites though. They have no problem posting "articles" about waifu pillows but then go ahead and post scathing opinion pieces about game art. Of course the defense will be "I didn't write that article".
This is perfectly fine. It's also different from "this artist's rendition is untasteful for the entire industry".
Wow, I was going to try and sum up what you just wrote, but would of never of done it so well.
not psycho
Member
I wonder if part of the reason people don't want to see Dragon's Crown get unfairly targeted is that niche Japanese games are not always guaranteed to be released here.
I mean, yes, the people going after Dragon's Crown are being ignorant, because they are singling out one character and ignoring that Vanillaware uses a wide variety of character designs. The sorceress is not some kind of status quo for them, they just decided to make one playable witch character with large breasts who can control skeleton minions and turn enemies into frogs. That's it. Other than that one offense (lol) they have a good variety of powerful, playable female characters and should not be targeted.
But the ignorance is only part of the reason to be critical of this criticism. The other, I think, is that people are genuinely worried about niche Japanese games not making it here because of this ignorant, dishonest uproar.
I mean, yes, the people going after Dragon's Crown are being ignorant, because they are singling out one character and ignoring that Vanillaware uses a wide variety of character designs. The sorceress is not some kind of status quo for them, they just decided to make one playable witch character with large breasts who can control skeleton minions and turn enemies into frogs. That's it. Other than that one offense (lol) they have a good variety of powerful, playable female characters and should not be targeted.
But the ignorance is only part of the reason to be critical of this criticism. The other, I think, is that people are genuinely worried about niche Japanese games not making it here because of this ignorant, dishonest uproar.
Devolution
Member
The people criticizing the art aren't any better with their juvenile insults and their interpretation of a character out of all kinds of context. You want to earnestly talk about this issue? Pick some games where it is a real issue instead of attacking an artist who's constantly made exaggerated caricatures.
There's a whole slew of games that could be talked about earnestly and people are stuck on some niche jrpg. Really. Bravo. Pat yourselves on the back.
I keep defending it, because this game's worth defending from political correct homogenisation.
Yeah, it's this kind of crazed deflective denial that makes it all worthwhile. They feel the need to justify it, couch it in some ridiculous excuse so that we have to keep coming back, it's just too goddamn entertaining. The comparisons to real women are the best. As if they really don't get that one is a human being, and the other something someone consciously drew.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
Well there's actually a reason for that. Ignition was the previous publisher, the game went M.I.A. for a year plus when Ignition died but Atlus rescued it and it's close to release date now and Atlus is promoting it.
Mr.Monitor
Member
You do have a point. I think I'm just going to abstain from posting in Dragon's Crown threads unless they're about the game itself. Not to antagonize anyone who is invested in the issue on either side, but his whole "conflict" is really just a waste of everyone's time. I'd really like to be able to discuss the actual game without copious amounts of shit flinging.
NoirVisage
Banned
Too reasonable.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction"
Kotaku and the Gearbox artist didn't say "I don't like it", which would earn the "Meh, I like it" response you imply.
They implied that it was a social problem, and naturally you are going to get complicated push-back against that assumption.
There's no denial here. I know perfectly well the Sorceress is sexualized. And there's nothing wrong with that.
These aren't the mysoginistic character designs people are looking for. Move on towards the real problematic designs instead of endlessly attacking and insulting a niche Japanese game with unique artistic vision.
Well, to be fair, it was also implied a little in other threads about this when a couple posters made the claim that any women who are bothered by the art are just jealous of the sorceress.
But both sides have been getting a little too heated and so very little real conversation has happened. It's just been everyone competing for who can scream the loudest and write the best insults.
HappyHunting
Neo Member
Their comments also insinuated that anyone with the opposite opinion were pretty much deviants... Prompting reactions obviously.
You say this like sexualized ladies isn't the predominant status quo in games. Diversifying is exactly what people are asking for.
not psycho
Member
Every time anybody used that claim (that I saw) they were summarily rebuked by both sides.
Devolution
Member
This isn't particularly true. There have been some of us asking for the conversation to shift towards games we can all agree have issues instead of this constant back and forth about this particular character, which serves no one.
This.
SolidSnakex
Member
And yet here we have a game with diverse character designs that's repeatedly being attacked.
CambriaRising
Member
I just canceled my reply to that post because you wrote almost exactly what I typed.
HappyHunting
Neo Member
At this point a simply tally of over-sexualized characters vs non-sexualized would serve a better purpose to the conversations.
And this game delivers. All three female characters are wildly different in form, and presumably gameplay. But people zone in on the Sorceress and ignore the game and artistic design she's a part of.
faceless007
Member
Well, not much worse than one blogger writes a snarky blog post and now all feminists are persecuted for it.
The reaction to the two-paragraph poorly-thought-out Kotaku post was not equal. Opposite, yes. But far from equal.