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[Rolf NB]

Well it's an easy target.There are not enough Vanillaware fans to defend it.

Hello.
I find this whole debate juvenile. Kids on my lawn and all that. I posted two pics of Borderlands characters but haven't said a word yet. Because of my perception of this whole ... thing, it's better for me to refrain from contributing. I wouldn't have anything constructive to say one way or another. Just stepping out to quickly let you know I'm a fan, and I'm sitting here.

 

[Beermeister]

Gearbox's environmental artist Shaylyn Hamm

I hope she get's fired.

 

[Glass Rebel]

>:/

It gives me skin reactions, sorry!

 

[LiquidSolid]

Well it's an easy target.There are not enough Vanillaware fans to defend it.

Sure and it helps that they're safe from pissing off publishers because Atlus can't afford to actually defend the game.

That in combination with these people never looking at the sorceress along side the other goddamn characters in the game is what fucks me off.

Agreed. It's a coherent art style and it works in the context of the game.

 

[sublimit]

She said that his style employed in a particular character is similar (but poorer) to a delinquent 5th grader's production, who now is in jail! however relevant (if she tried to imply anything with that...) that is.

The user just went as low and said it is obvious (due lack of beauty I assume?) that she would make such statements.

I don't think being called a child is any different then being called ugly. It's a personal attack. Even if I/you don't really think she is ugly. Everyone is being petty dicks.

I think she's cute actually,that's why i didn't get the personal photo quote...

And about her "insult" to kamitani's work i think she only insulted herself.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Elaborate.

I think we all know what he means.

 

[mullet2000]

That's great. I hope this game is successful for a variety of reasons that go beyond the art style alone.

Same. I know I was always going to be there day one. I just can't decide between PS3 and Vita. :/

 

[levitan]

Her opinion sucks, but please don't post her picture for jokes/trolls please.

 

[Knux-Future]

what is even.

This is why we can't have nice things

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I hope she get's fired.

Why?

Should you get fired for throw away GAF posts you made?

 

[Etnos]

As you can see it's pretty obvious why she's so upset

Shame, there was no need for this.. out of line. I might not share her opinion but there was absolutely no need to do this...

Very coward and low of you.

 

[KojiKnight]

I hope she get's fired.

Wow... just wow... That's pretty F'ed up Beermeister.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Boderlands 1 and 2 are fantastic looking games. These comments were stupid, but it doesn't change that.

Yeah but I was talking about 2-d games. We don't get many 2-d beat em ups these days so it pisses me off when this game is getting so much hate. Hopefully the publicity will help its sales.

 

[twobear]

I think it's because this style of criticism usually comes with an air of 'we need to see less of this'. If you think this sort of thing keeps women out games and you want to see more women in games, it stands to reason that you'd want to see less of this sort of art. Otherwise, what do you want? Just to moan and for nothing to change?

There's pretty obviously a difference between wanting to see less of something and thinking it should be censored.

I don't think people should be racist. I wish fewer people were racist. I do not think that racism should be censored.

 

[ChosenPredator]

I wonder how different the reaction would be if it was a picture of a guy instead of a girl lol
but regardless that isn't the issue and I think his art style is pretty cool it's just blows up certain
aspects of the characters but the game itself looks fantastic

 

[Kokonoe]

I wonder how different the reaction would be if it was a picture of a guy instead of a girl lol

Probably the same amount of immaturity, except this time it would be about 'White Knights'.

 

[SummitAve]

He's an environmental artist. Why do people keep tying him to borderlands assists that he had nothing to do with? Shitty phrases aside the guy makes a pretty good point, but there are far bigger offenders to go after. Like that new side scrolling game that has the wizard lady with Hindenburg tits.

 

[KojiKnight]

There's pretty obviously a difference between wanting to see less of something and thinking it should be censored.

I don't think people should be racist. I wish fewer people were racist. I do not think that racism should be censored.

This. People seem to not understand that by forcing their views on something like this, you are limiting people's freedom of expression.

To expand on that, if games banned every racist action, good or bad, then we wouldn't get games like Bioshock Infinite, which has a great setting and story that explores those moments that make us human (mistakes and all)

Instead of trying to stifle people, you instead should be encouraging others who makes games that stand out and not follow the tropes.

 

[thumb]

Sure and it helps that they're safe from pissing off publishers because Atlus can't afford to actually defend the game.

I suspect that the focus on this game is largely a result of a) the exceptional sexualization (even by normal videogame standards) of the Sorceress, b) the brief insult directed at Vanillaware by Kotaku, and c) the larger conversation about how women are typically portrayed in video games.

The notion that Kotaku (or any critics) have calculated whether Atlus can "defend" themselves (what does that even mean?) prior to commenting sounds a tad paranoid.

 

[Mithos]

He's an environmental artist. Why do people keep tying him to borderlands assists that he had nothing to do with? Shitty phrases aside the guy makes a pretty good point, but there are far bigger offenders to go after. Like that new side scrolling game that has the wizard lady with Hindenburg tits.

SHE could have started by complaining about her own backyard first (Gearbox) before complaining about others.

 

[NoirVisage]

He's an environmental artist. Why do people keep tying him to borderlands assists that he had nothing to do with? Shitty phrases aside the guy makes a pretty good point, but there are far bigger offenders to go after. Like that new side scrolling game that has the wizard lady with Hindenburg tits.

Why is it a bigger offender? And what part of what "he" said was agreeable?

 

[KojiKnight]

He's an environmental artist. Why do people keep tying him to borderlands assists that he had nothing to do with? Shitty phrases aside the guy makes a pretty good point, but there are far bigger offenders to go after. Like that new side scrolling game that has the wizard lady with Hindenburg tits.

Two points... She's a she. Secondly, she has tons of artwork on her personal website that includes females in fairly revealing outfits... She's a hypocrite who couldn't just say "I don't like the artstyle of the game". Instead she had to make silly statements that contradict her own stances with her own works.

 

[sublimit]

He's an environmental artist. Why do people keep tying him to borderlands assists that he had nothing to do with? Shitty phrases aside the guy makes a pretty good point, but there are far bigger offenders to go after. Like that new side scrolling game that has the wizard lady with Hindenburg tits.

I have some news for you...

 

[andregnreis]

I don't understand why people are talking so much about sexism in videogames now. I mean, I don't think its only our beloved industry that's sexist. Actually I do think that videogames are actually very fair in this point since they usually just show how pretty someone is without showing actual boobs or something more mature. It's almost like something very innocent compared to other kind of media. So what if the sorceress in Dragons Crown has huge boobs and its beautiful? Shes a cartoon, not much more than a fantasy and I think its way worse when we see real woman in bikinis walking almost naked in reality TV programs like Big Brother and quiz shows and no one complain about that. If this problem isnt fixed in movies/tv series, why it should be applied to videogames?

We see it every time in movies, tv series and conventions - gaming conventions or not. People tend to value sex appeal/appearance and thats almost everywhere. Megan Fox didnt star in Transformers because of her acting skills, same thing for the Twilight actors. Olivia Munn isnt in movies now because she suddenly learned to act like an oscar worthy actress and I bet that she appears in a bikini in 90% movies shes in. And thats just movies. Victoria Secret models are, guess what, almost perfect in the public eyes. Even in books this happens... in Twilight, for instance, author Stephanie Meyer always write about how perfect her characters are, specially the vampires and the werewolf and the same goes for "Fifty Shades of Grey" - the main male character is seem as a God by the protagonist. Even in more juvenile books like Harry Potter everyone is pretty and stuff like that. People love to fantasize about looks.

Heck, even 90% of human beings - male or female - the first thing they will notice in the opposite sex is that if they are pretty or not and then they will notice if they are cool/smart and try a relationship.

 

[antitrop]

I have some news for you...

Well, I mean that was clearly the joke. It's the part where he thinks the artist is a male that is concerning.

 

[NoirVisage]

I suspect that the focus on this game is largely a result of a) the exceptional sexualization (even by normal videogame standards) of the Sorceress, b) the brief insult directed at Vanillaware by Kotaku, and c) the larger conversation about how women are typically portrayed in video games.

The notion that Kotaku (or any critics) have calculated whether Atlus can "defend" themselves (what does that even mean?) prior to commenting sounds a tad paranoid.

What line of work are you in? Your statement was either naive or biased.

 

[ArtHands]

Two points... She's a she. Secondly, she has tons of artwork on her personal website that includes females in fairly revealing outfits... She's a hypocrite who couldn't just say "I don't like the artstyle of the game". Instead she had to make silly statements that contradict her own stances with her own works.

The problem that people have with DC is far more than the outfit design though. Its also about the exaggerated art style.

 

[DigitalOp]

What really fucks me off about this entire controversy isn't so much the ignorant and stupid opinions but the fact that this one niche game is being held up as some kind of grand example of what's wrong with videogames, when in reality barely anyone's going to play it and it's probably going to struggle to hit 100k sales in the US. The lack of perspective is fucking absurd. They may as well start bitching and moaning about hentai games.

They aren't overexaggerated as Kamitani's styles are prone to, but the styles in Borderlands are certainly fetishized (and the same is true of Kamitani's styles). It's unfair to compare the two, given that the contribution and results are unequal (3D art and 2D art are quite different, just to start out), but what's more, what's being missed here doesn't relate to subjects nearly so much as their objectification. Which has to do with context, and given that there isn't a great deal of context, such judgments are difficult and far more nuanced than a conversation here is likely to delve into.

I don't think the debacle about Dragon's Crown's character design has in any way been beneficial to the debate about sexism in video games. I'd rather have people be silent than completely missing the mark and overreaching because there are big tits involved.

It's a woman, firstly. Second, she graduated in 2009. I doubt she was with the company when Mad Moxxi's DLC came out for Borderlands. Plus, she's a low level environmental artist. You know, the people who make textures for rocks and shit. Not an art director. So she would likely have no say over the design even if she were present.

This has nothing to do with Borderlands or Randy Pitchford or Gearbox or Aliens: Colonial Marines. The only thing that's really wrong here is the degree to which her rash, frankly somewhat hypocritical comments have been amplified by this thread. Not because I think the comment was kind of shitty, but because it's being distorted way out of its context. It was just some casual bitching on a message board. Do we all want to stand trial for everything we've ever said here?

She still works for a company that quite often portrays what she is complaining about.. Think of how much more reach and influence a game like Borderlands 2 has compared to something like Dragon's Crown.

#VoicesofReason ITT (IMO I must say since it could be debateble)

Theres more to this story than the shallow shallow comments being randomly flung around in this thread

 

[sublimit]

Well, I mean that was clearly the joke. It's the part where he thinks the artist is a male that is concerning.

Maybe it's just me but i don't think he was joking...perhaps he thinks Dragon's Crown is a different game?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

1.) Day One purchase. But the discourse in these threads continues to be disconcerting and embryonic at best.

2.)

She calls out the artwork for Dragon's Crow to be juvenile then goes and designs this?

I think the outfit is pretty and unique for Mirana and I have no issue with it, but really just contradicts all her comments.

Apparently only 5 of you know how 3rd party item design works in the game pictured above. You can only add a few pieces to the character, and there are limits to what you can change. Basically, she added a flower to her hair, changed her dress style and added some made her own shoulder design. The rest is just the base model in a game she didn't make or design. As such...just don't even quote this shit. It makes you look stupid to people who do know how the workshop in this game works.

3.) Oh no, she had an opinion on the internet.

4.)

As you can see it's pretty obvious why she's so upset

the fuck are you even trying to say?

5.)

I thought it was a dude, too, but it's actually a lady.

not with this mouth

Haha. Not lady-like if she uses a potty word and must be personally attacked while simultaneously and subtly (though probably inadvertently) reminding the other women here that a potty mouth will cause you to be associated with not being a "proper woman" where such a distinction simply wouldn't have been suggested if it was a dude. We're back to basic, raw sexism 'round here. Ok.

6.)

Ahem...

Borderlands has the full gamut of character personalities. I guess posting the dozens upon dozens of female characters in long dresses or Gears of War-style COG outfits wouldn't help the point, so I guess they stay on the sidelines in order to make the intellectual dishonesty of the post more opaque to the uninitiated. The character pictured (Moxxi) has a very colorful, developed background and isn't just dropped into the game with that outfit for no apparent reason other than because it's revealing. Nor is she a typical reflection of women in the game. Whereas, I doubt a reason will be presented in the Sorceress' backstory that will help the player understand her choice in clothing beyond the need for more t&a in the game's style.

Again, the intellectually dishonest strike again, then compliment each other on their wit. It's tiring. If you like the art style generally and find the game to look good, pre-order like the rest of us. But save the sophomoric arguments, ad hominems, and poorly contrived moral relativisms for the local Jr. Highers that are simple-minded enough to buy them.

 

[thumb]

I don't understand why people are talking so much about sexism in videogames now. I mean, I don't think its only our beloved industry that's sexist. Actually I do think that videogames are actually very fair in this point since they usually just show how pretty someone is without showing actual boobs or something more mature. It's almost like something very innocent compared to other kind of media. So what if the sorceress in Dragons Crown has huge boobs and its beautiful? Shes a cartoon, not much more than a fantasy and I think its way worse when we see real woman in bikinis walking almost naked in reality TV programs like Big Brother and quiz shows and no one complain about that. If this problem isnt fixed in movies/tv series, why it should be applied to videogames?

Edit: In retrospect, I don't think my comment actually addressed the gist of your quote, which is primarily puzzlement at sexism suddenly mattering in video games. I suspect that there are many reasons for that.

 

[SaggyMonkey]

The viral campaign for this game is amazing. Will probably sell better than any Atlus game ever because of all the daily attention. How many other games get a news cycle every day?

 

[wildfire]

I think American creatives working for large companies need to learn to censor themselves. This social media gobbledygook is simply out of hand. You are representing your multitudinous unique colleagues and you need to keep your opinions to yourself. And, if for some reason you are allowed to have an opinion, please be a little more formal, and respectful, especially of the Japanese -- you wouldn't even have a job without people like Kamitani-san. I was fine until the, "fucking lol," which is a terribly offensive thing to say when discussing art like Dragon's Crown. Why do you need to curse? It's a sign of Western cultural decline.

No they don't need to censor themselves. But they should be mindful of what they are saying in the context of how the company they work for relates to them.

This blow up has a lot similarities and differences with the Adam Orth incident.

It's the same because an employee is acting in a very immature manner in a public venue.

It's different because her target is one person and not something as far reaching as her employer's customers (beyond possibly this guy she is criticizing).

If professionals don't speak up we lose out on hearing a veteran's take on a subject. But those veterans need to be mindful how a topic could be turned against them and acknowledge it (e.g. Gearbox making rape jokes in Duke Nuke Em among other things).

 

[djtiesto]

why all the big deal over this game? Games has been sexualizing women for like forever, suddenly dragon's crown gets handpicked by all these people, I just don't get it... Is it because it's a japanese title?

That's what I think... anyways, hopefully it will bring more sales to Dragon's Crown. Vanillaware games haven't clicked with me yet, gameplay-wise, but I love their art and the use of color in the world design/character design is fantastic.

No they don't need to censor themselves. But they should be mindful of what they are saying in the context of how the company they work for relates to them.

This blow up has a lot similarities and differences with the Adam Orth incident.

It's the same because an employee is acting in a very immature manner in a public venue.

It's different because her target is one person and not something as far reaching as her employer's customers (beyond possibly this guy she is criticizing).

If professionals don't speak up we lose out on hearing a veteran's take on a subject. But those veterans need to be mindful how a topic could be turned against them and acknowledge it (e.g. Gearbox making rape jokes in Duke Nuke Em among other things).

Zia is being ironic. He's a huge fan of Phil Fish who is the king of verbal diarrhea (especially about Japanese games/devs). Though I agree with you, the industry-wide shit-talking has gotten really out of hand lately, as the game industry crumbles around their feet.

 

[thumb]

What line of work are you in? Your statement was either naive or biased.

I'm willing to be wrong. But what you have posted is not much to go on. Additionally, my line of work is irrelevant to whether you or I happen to be correct about this particular instance.

 

[Knux-Future]

Since this seems to be a new group of people.

Can someone answer this:

How exactly is a big breasted witch a bad thing for the industry? Let drop stuff like sexist for now. That's my hold up on this whole thing. Think it is sexist is up to you (it's a big leap but whatever) but I never get how this design would effect anything, be it short term or long term. Its a niche game, the design is fucking insane and it's not like every game has a deisgn just like this, especially recently.

So how exactly is it harmful to anything?

I don't get it.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

Broburger
Banned
(Today, 11:08 AM)

That didn't take long

 

[sublimit]

Vanillaware games haven't clicked with me yet, gameplay-wise, but I love their art and the use of color in the world design/character design is fantastic.

I would like to see them once try implementing the same art direction in a 3D game.

 

[APF]

People who actually spend the time to find a photo of a woman under the assumption that her appearance has anything to do with her arguments are the reason why people like Leigh Alexander stereotype the rest of us. Thanks.

On the internet, you need to determine how hot you find a woman before you decide whether to take her seriously.

The rape threats come regardless however.

 

[NoirVisage]

5.) Haha. Not lady-like if she uses a potty word and must be personally attacked while reminding the other women here that a potty mouth will cause you to be associated with not being a "proper woman"We're back to basic, raw sexism 'round here. Ok.

I don't see the sexism here.
In other news, hell must be hosting the icecapades, because I agree with Zia.

 

[Knux-Future]

1.) Whereas, I doubt a reason will be presented in the Sorceress' backstory that will help the player understand her choice in clothing beyond the need for more t&a in the game's style.

This was explained...by the artist, himself. It wasn't just a mindless choice.

This is somethng everyone is overlooking. He did this on purpose for more than just "i liek teets".

This is what bugs me a lot about this topic is that he is being painted as a loser or something.

 

[thumb]

Edit - Never mind.

 

[Meier]

I think it's unfair to paint Gearbox with a brush based off one of their employee's opinions. She's also an environmental artist and not a character designer for Gearbox, so their characters aren't in her wheelhouse.

With that being said, she should know better than to post such inflammatory posts when her identity is not a secret. Even if you have the disclaimer my thoughts are my own and not my company's blah blah online, you still have to be careful.

 

[CookTrain]

I don't see the sexism here.

Yeah, that's a weird comment after seeing the discussion about David Jaffe's bleep marathon on the Bonus Round the other day. For right or for wrong, some people will always look upon expletive expression as undermining the point and no-one here is hounding on that one as a matter of gender from what I've seen.

 

[sublimit]

This is what bugs me a lot about this topic is that he is being painted as a loser or something.

I don't think Kamitani gives a fuck to be honest.Well at least he shouldn't be.

 

[Daingurse]

Jesus @ the amount of ad hominem attacks in this thread. She's an environmental artist for Christ's sake, she has nothing to do with any character designs. If you're curious about her thought's on those Gearbox designs, try asking her on twitter instead of posting mindless dribble. You don't need to defend or justify Dragon's Crown in any fashion, I think the game looks great and plan to buy it. If you can't see why anyone would have any issue with the designs you're fucking naive.


Who gives a shit, this thread is insane. But highly entertaining, so continue.

 

[Hero]

Borderlands has the full gamut of character personalities. I guess posting the dozens upon dozens of female characters in long dresses or Gears of War-style COG outfits wouldn't help the point, so I guess they stay on the sidelines in order to make the intellectual dishonesty of the post more opaque to the uninitiated. The character pictured (Moxxi) has a very colorful, developed background and isn't just dropped into the game with that outfit for no apparent reason other than because it's revealing. Nor is she a typical reflection of women in the game. Whereas, I doubt a reason will be presented in the Sorceress' backstory that will help the player understand her choice in clothing beyond the need for more t&a in the game's style.

I was kind of with you on all points until this right here. The game can't even come out and people are assuming shit. Point out other people's ignorance but excuse and justify your own. No thanks.

 

[prwxv3]

Her first sentence was fine. Then it was like a kid came in a typed out that second sentence ironically.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

I know nothing about Dragons Crown other than it's characters look stupid to me, outside of the girl with a bow. The rest just look too odd.

 

[NoirVisage]

This was explained...by the artist, himself. It wasn't just a mindless choice.

This is somethng everyone is overlooking. He did this on purpose for more than just "i liek teets".

This is what bugs me a lot about this topic is that he is being painted as a loser or something.

Dude is part of the reason I pay attention to 2d games, their artistic design is top notch, I'll be getting this game Day 1 as a show of support, yet will play as the Knight most than likely