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Gearbox Artist trashes Dragons Crown art style
- Thread starter ArtHands
- Start date
googleplex
Member
Also true.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
We should turn this into a thread about Francis.
You inspired me.
I'm more afraid of him changing his style through all of this.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
sure it should. She's actively taking a stance against the practices of another developer while not doing the same to the games she works on. It's hypocritical for her.
"I'm not okay with character design X but I'm completely okay with blatently copying and stealing character design Y."
Devolution
Member
Tits. Destroyer of worlds.
Artists change their style all the time, that's not a bad thing.
Karsticles
Member
Well, this is like thread...6 about the character. A lot of pictures have been posted, and I think people just carry the argument between threads, haha.
To others, Life.
Devolution
Member
At this point I'd make a game with a bouncing pair of tits that's supposed to lampoon/parody bad characters but then Kotaku would run with it as some kind of shilling to sexists.
Taken from destructoid.
Have we really reached the point where everyone is bitching about women with C cups and higher...And how do you determine if that character defines herself as oversexualized.I know you dear not tell a woman what she should wear in real life, is it always a negative in a to be overly sexual in a video game?
Live action movie please.
But what'll happen when they discover the game creator is a female? Will they implode or will you be called out as a bisexual or lesbian with unrealistic titillating fantasies putting undesired pressure on females around the world to conform your allegedly impossible/exaggerated design or suffer low self esteem?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Maybe. But I would think if it's sells any better then other Vanillaware game that he wouldn't change his art style much.
Also this. Kamitani is talented. I think he could shift into many different art styles and put his own twist on things and be very comfortable.
It is when they do it under pressure and via bullying by people trying to vilify the poor guy. And I don't mind him making any changes. I just wouldn't want it to be because of what I mentioned.
A victim of the patriarchy who just don't know no better.
(people on GAF have actually said this sort of thing in regards to Kinu Nishimura & other risqué designs from females...)
googleplex
Member
Believe me I'm no fan of hers myself,but truthfully we have no ideal what kind of battles she has to fight behind dthe scenes.
She may actually fighting the good fight within her company.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Wow lol
Shit like this sometimes makes me believe what people say about us on other sites
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
All exaggeration has a base start somewhere.
Saint Gregory
Member
Just ask Janet Jackson.
Social pressures are exactly what allows art styles to evolve for the better. What is art if not commentary on the zeitgeist?
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Don't forget about Hometown!
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I think the white knight stuff should go both ways.
Just like women don't need men to speak up for them about sexism, I don't think Kamitani needs people to stick up for him against his critics.
I'm sure this is nothing he hasn't heard before. Probably never on this scale but I'm sure he knows what he's drawing.
He just doesn't deserve the treatment end of story. That's the real point.
Just gave my opinion is regards to the discussion. I'm really not white knighting. Just trying to get my point across. If this person had given their thoughts in a way a critic (one with some professionalism), I wouldn't even give it a second thought personally.
Great Puma
Member
I'm getting tired of this whole "gaming only caters to juvenile guys / we've got to get more girls playing games" soapbox. The fact is, if you look at video games as a whole -- including mobile games, web games, Facebook games, etc. -- in addition to console and PC games, then probably 90% of what's out there isn't the oversexualized/hyperviolent stuff that people like to wave pitchforks at. Hell, even just within the console category, there are as many titles aimed at both sexes as anything else. I mean, Zelda? Mario? Puzzle games? Dance games? Karaoke? Pokémon? RPGs? Pretty much anything on Nintendo consoles?
Oh, wait -- some dude put a girl with big boobs into an obscure, low-budget, niche action game: HOW DARE HE. I don't even think he needs to justify it as art -- if someone wants to see T&A in a video game, more power to them. It doesn't hurt anybody, and it certainly has no impact whatsoever on the hundreds of thousands of games that don't have any of that material. To each their own.
Oh, wait -- some dude put a girl with big boobs into an obscure, low-budget, niche action game: HOW DARE HE. I don't even think he needs to justify it as art -- if someone wants to see T&A in a video game, more power to them. It doesn't hurt anybody, and it certainly has no impact whatsoever on the hundreds of thousands of games that don't have any of that material. To each their own.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I didn't mean to single you out
but your post just reminded me of something I've seen alot in these threads that hasn't been properly called out
People treating Kamitani like a victim who needs defending against critics. I definitely think Schreier should have been criticized for the name calling in his amateurish article, but I don't think Kamitani needs protecting from dudes like him nor should he close himself off from their perspective entirely.
Karsticles
Member
Can you tell us anything about the gameplay elements? :-D
All art deserves criticism (good or bad), because the worst thing that can happen to art is to simply ignore it. Which implicitly means that society doesn't care for its creation or its creators.
Don't really think he's a victim. I agree with you the Gearbox artist was being asinine and that's really what prompted me to say anything (and all the Kotaku garbage). It's not like Kamitani is suddenly going to be jobless and never be able to work again. That would be an overreaction.
Hmm, it would be a shame to ignore the sorceress, amazoness and female elf. You're right.
(If people are going to make criticisms publicly, and want to be taken seriously, then it should be a lot more meaningful than what we are getting from the Gearbox artist.)
Give this man a cookie.
bigboss370
Member
are you talking about misogyny in the games industry like corporate level, or in actual games? because i would really disagree with the latter.
I'd also like to know.
It was a SUPER early build. The combat wasn't really fleshed out at that point, but all of the base animation cycles were in (walking, running, jumping, normal melee attacking). The Amazon has some crazy butt stuff going on, especially during a high jump.
https://www.facebook.com/george.kamitani
seipherzero
Neo Member
Yea, he has a facebook page, which he responds to people's comments.
Except that this argument was never about the artist's comment on Kamitani. Also, you're seriously missing the point about what criticism is.Hmm, it would be a shame to ignore the sorceress, amazoness and female elf. You're right.
I've kind of given up on changing people's minds here though, so enjoy I guess.
Your point is clear. Any criticism for an artist is a good thing because artists should be ever evolving.
Yes, and artists can choose what to do with that criticism. At the very least, considering it is helpful and leads to the possibility of more thoughtful discourse (whether it be in the art itself or in the criticism which evolves around it).
Karsticles
Member
Do you know anything like how the Sorceress' air dash works, or basic mechanics for the different characters? I mean...we know almost nothing about this game, haha. So anything is appreciated, even if it's early.
I feel very conflicted on this matter and maybe you guys could help me get my thoughts straight. I have talked a bit of this through with my girlfriend but I still feel a bit 'iffy' on this matter.
First, I guess I should mention that I just don't like the artstyle. I feel I should mention this because I don't want to seem like I am going hate bashing needlessly and want to work through my thoughts one at a time. I know having this opinion of the artist's style will affect my ultimate view but I suppose it is necessary to note and perhaps make it easier for me to isolate those negative feelings and analyze my position on the matter.
Anyway, aside I said I feel conflicted. I do feel the sorceress is just oozing sex appeal for the sake of it and to me that is not okay. My problem, however, (I believe) lies in how to deal with that judgment. I see the character as just blatant objectification and that does not sit well with me. However, I see several people mentioning a few things in response to a lot of the criticism, namely, that because the game itself is niche and has up until now seen very little exposure, it shouldn't be at the forefront of everyone's judgment and placed on some sort of pedestal and marked as the end all be all objectifying figure of women. That was probably phrased really dramatically, but I wasn't really sure how else to paraphrase it, so I am sorry if it seemed harsh.
However, my problem with that lies with how I feel it is a cop out or excuse for the art style. I understand there is an argument regarding the fact that it is simply art and is just the artist's way of expression, but it is still, to me, a depiction of a woman in a video game and thus fits into this evergrowing argument of how women are treated and depicted in the industry. I don't feel like just because someone created it makes it sacred and immune from criticism. I feel this shouldn't be how women are portrayed. Now, I understand that this is still a niche product but it is still part of the amalgamation of examples of how women are portrayed.
Another thing people keep bringing up is seating all of the criticism appropriately within the context of the game and all of the artist's other characters. They are all incredibly exaggerated, but I don't feel that excuses the sorceress nor any other way the other characters are depicted. This is just this particular artist's style, but distributing it out into the current gaming ethos just makes it another example of the way women are depicted.
I feel I am coming off too harshly against the artist or feeling like I am adding to some personal attack on him and that is not my intention. I just don't feel like the defenses people are lobbying are strong enough to sway any opinion of mine, but I still feel they (the defenses I brought up) are 'right' in some way. I don't know. I just feel very conflicted on the matter and I think this is primarily because I do agree that this niche little game that sold very little is now the center of attention. I do feel this is because of the extreme levels of the exaggerations, but I do agree this is drawing attention away from bigger budget high popularity examples that should be scrutinized. However, I do not feel the artstyle of Dragon's Crown should be excused or made an exception as well.
I am completely open to arguments. I really want to have a firm foothold on how I should approach this issue, I just feel I have a very strong initial reaction to the artstyle and it is influencing my overall feelings about it. I do want to be open and considerate but I at the same time feel that there is still an underlying problem with the artstyle and the industry it finds itself in.
First, I guess I should mention that I just don't like the artstyle. I feel I should mention this because I don't want to seem like I am going hate bashing needlessly and want to work through my thoughts one at a time. I know having this opinion of the artist's style will affect my ultimate view but I suppose it is necessary to note and perhaps make it easier for me to isolate those negative feelings and analyze my position on the matter.
Anyway, aside I said I feel conflicted. I do feel the sorceress is just oozing sex appeal for the sake of it and to me that is not okay. My problem, however, (I believe) lies in how to deal with that judgment. I see the character as just blatant objectification and that does not sit well with me. However, I see several people mentioning a few things in response to a lot of the criticism, namely, that because the game itself is niche and has up until now seen very little exposure, it shouldn't be at the forefront of everyone's judgment and placed on some sort of pedestal and marked as the end all be all objectifying figure of women. That was probably phrased really dramatically, but I wasn't really sure how else to paraphrase it, so I am sorry if it seemed harsh.
However, my problem with that lies with how I feel it is a cop out or excuse for the art style. I understand there is an argument regarding the fact that it is simply art and is just the artist's way of expression, but it is still, to me, a depiction of a woman in a video game and thus fits into this evergrowing argument of how women are treated and depicted in the industry. I don't feel like just because someone created it makes it sacred and immune from criticism. I feel this shouldn't be how women are portrayed. Now, I understand that this is still a niche product but it is still part of the amalgamation of examples of how women are portrayed.
Another thing people keep bringing up is seating all of the criticism appropriately within the context of the game and all of the artist's other characters. They are all incredibly exaggerated, but I don't feel that excuses the sorceress nor any other way the other characters are depicted. This is just this particular artist's style, but distributing it out into the current gaming ethos just makes it another example of the way women are depicted.
I feel I am coming off too harshly against the artist or feeling like I am adding to some personal attack on him and that is not my intention. I just don't feel like the defenses people are lobbying are strong enough to sway any opinion of mine, but I still feel they (the defenses I brought up) are 'right' in some way. I don't know. I just feel very conflicted on the matter and I think this is primarily because I do agree that this niche little game that sold very little is now the center of attention. I do feel this is because of the extreme levels of the exaggerations, but I do agree this is drawing attention away from bigger budget high popularity examples that should be scrutinized. However, I do not feel the artstyle of Dragon's Crown should be excused or made an exception as well.
I am completely open to arguments. I really want to have a firm foothold on how I should approach this issue, I just feel I have a very strong initial reaction to the artstyle and it is influencing my overall feelings about it. I do want to be open and considerate but I at the same time feel that there is still an underlying problem with the artstyle and the industry it finds itself in.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I would assume T unless it get's DoA'd into the mature category
Karsticles
Member
He has a Facebook account. I PMed him my own feelings, and I've kind of ducked out of these threads after that.
I was thinking that too, the boxart might be an attempt to prevent it...? Or at least prevent complaints and allow it to be sold in retail stores? Should hopefully have a reverse cover
I wouldn't say it's strictly in there for actual sex appeal, like people are getting off on it, it's appealing because it's a comical exaggeration, it stands out. It's fun. No one expects women to change and become more like this:
Obviously I don't want a trend like this to happen either - where we end up with something like what Japan has. No thank you. Definitely. But with this one game, let's have our super exaggerated fiction in our entertainment and leave moral and standards to parents and educators. Games have been too samey.
I would say it deserves a higher age rating though, not higher than Saints Row, whatever that got. I imagine you'd have more issue with Dead or Alive though?
nailbombxx
Member
Okay, so do any of the people trashing Dragon's Crown look beyond the tits, and at the actual art?
RobotMafia
Banned
I think the sorceress looks fucking stupid(really her boobs just look fucking stupid, I think its the bouncing animation I hate the most) but I still think the art of the game in general looks great and will buy this day one. So I don't know where I fall in this whole fight. Seems super serious all over.