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[AAequal]

why are you making his excuses for him? he lied about this shit for decades. a lie of omission doesnt make it less of a lie, lol.

I'm not making any excuses. I just don't think it's right to judge every person who served Third Reich, especially when it comes to young people who were systematically brought up to the system those days. I do agree that he shouldn't have covered his past so long since he is a public figure who has written about Nazi regime often.

And I do not agree with his Israeli poem. Just saying that his past doesn't automatically make his point not worthy of discussion.

 

[theignoramus]

If the white supremacist movement had taken over America completely, and had a leadership similar to Hitler in scope of power and image, and said ex-white supremacist was recruited at a young, gullible age, not to mention the plausibility of forceful recruitment, then yes, a comparison would be apt. I agree that your example would create a shitstorm.

sounds like a roundabout way of saying he's not morally responsible for his own bad judgement because the Nazi war machine was this, that and the other thing.

 

[AAequal]

nvm. it's pointless to go on about this.

 

[Cromat]

nvm. it's pointless to go on about this.

Especially since what he is actually saying is quite ridiculous, past-Nazi or not.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Especially since what he is actually saying is quite ridiculous, past-Nazi or not.

It's a poem, not a UN document written on blood. There's no mandate to it.

 

[Milchjon]

German media is basically tearing him a new asshole.

Slightly off-topic, but I'm often surprised how stereotypical GAF seems to see a lot of foreign countries. Although I guess that's not really limited to other countries, there's a frankly stunning amount of superficial black and white arguments when it comes to all kinds of topics.

 

[Cromat]

It's a poem, not a UN document written on blood. There's no mandate to it.

So it's a stupid poem.

 

[Barbacoatl]

So it's a stupid poem.

So it's a stupid controversy.

 

[Despera]

"Israel endangers world peace"

Tell us something we don't know already.

 

[Dead Man]

sounds like a roundabout way of saying he's not morally responsible for his own bad judgement because the Nazi war machine was this, that and the other thing.

Actually, there are lots of people who would say that youth within totalitarian regimes have diminished capacity. Many would also say no one within the regime as a whole was innocent of the crimes of the regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification

 

[NinjaFridge]

Well fuck me, a clairvoyant.

Read your palm for a fiver.

I don't think he's wrong but this thread will be more about his past than it will be about what he said.

I feel like i should clarify, I don't think for a moment that they are the only threat to world peace. There are plenty of countries ready to fuck things up.

 

[Dude Abides]

I´m the one arguing emotionalism? Especially with that last line. Thats rich. I don´t like bibi don´t agree with with most current Israeli policy but I´m carrying water for him? because I feel the formation of the state of Israel isn´t a crime?

Who said anything about crimes? That's your emotionalism rearing its ugly head again. The only proposition under dispute is whether it was justifiable for the Arab majority to reject a plan that would have split the mandate 55/45 in Israel's favor when, at the time, Arabs owned the vast majority of the land and constituted a large majority of the population.

Whether you like Bibi or not, your blame the Arabs rhetoric is undoubtedly carrying his water for him.

 

[el retorno]

Who said anything about crimes? That's your emotionalism rearing its ugly head again. The only proposition under dispute is whether it was justifiable for the Arab majority to reject a plan that would have split the mandate 55/45 in Israel's favor when, at the time, Arabs owned the vast majority of the land and constituted a large majority of the population.

Whether you like Bibi or not, your blame the Arabs rhetoric is undoubtedly carrying his water for him.

Where is my blame the Arabs retoric? I just said the Arabs have to take a bit of the blame for the current situation and not have it be the Jews only. I never once said they are to sole aggressors and I still don't understand how I'm carry bibis water.

 

[fabricated backlash]

he's not an anti-Semite, btw

Grass's books are actually quite amazing. The Tin Drum in particular should make it obvious that he's a guy who can see right through all the hypocritic bullshit and makeup that constitutes political correctness. A refreshing book that doesn't follow the same tearjerk, OMG we can't comprehend it, narrative that most WW2 and holocaust books follow. Instead he shoots the disgusting facade of middle class morality during and after WW2 right in the face, exposing the horrible truth that many people simply didn't care about what happened to the Jews and traded in their morality for power in a heartbeat.

But again, since he's german, and was part of the SS with 17 in 1944 no less, he obviously must be a antisemitic racist who worships Hitler in his secret SS Bunker. Just like Pope Benedict still has his Swastika under his robe, because he was part of the Hitler Youth.

 

[phosphor112]

Some of you need to read Norman Finkelstein. This oversensitivity to any criticism of Israel is the exact thesis to his works. He concludes there is an entire industry/lobbying interest set up devoted to perpetuating the atrocities of the Holocaust, that any criticism of Israel/Jews is anti-Semitic in nature (which includes accusations of human rights violations with regard to the Palestinians) and constantly demanding more money and resources from the government to Israel.

This guy being former SS doesn't mean anything, in this context. He is free to say what he wants. Anyone who attempts to make all of Germany evil, or attempts to disallow any negative Israel comments from a German citizen, is ignorant and stupid.

But but Finkelstein is a self hating Jew. D=

No, its a massive attack on those that attacked, where did you get they were going to kill everyone? Thats getting into "evil jewish blood level crap." The US had a similar policy towards the Russian it was called MAD.

MAD and the Samson Option are two different things.

This is MAD. They know they are fucked either way, resulting in death of both parties.

Samson option? One or more groups threatens the existence of the other... ending in the annihilation of those groups to save yourself.

Here's the kicker. Because no other country in the middle east has nuclear weapons, it's a much easier option than MAD. IF Iran had nuclear weapons, they wouldn't be able to annihilate them easily because they would get destroyed as well. Keeping Iran away from the POTENTIAL to get those weapons keeps the Samson option on the table.

 

[Kinyou]

Little Update;

Günther Grass is now forbidden to enter Israel

On Sunday, Israel's interior minister Eli Yishai used a law permitting a bar on entry to former Nazis to declare Grass persona non grata for his "attempt to fan the flames of hatred against the state of Israel and its people, and thus to advance the idea to which he publicly affiliated in his past donning of the SS uniform".

Yishai's statement added: "If Gunter wants to continue to spread his twisted and lying works, I suggest he does this from Iran, where he can find a supportive audience."

Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, added his voice to the storm of criticism, saying Grass's poem was the expression of "egoism of so-called western intellectuals who are willing to sacrifice the Jewish people on the altar of crazy anti-Semites for a second time, just to sell a few more books or gain recognition".

 

[Chichikov]

Little Update;

Günther Grass is now forbidden to enter Israel

Oh for fuck's sake.

 

[RustyNails]

Little Update;

Günther Grass is now forbidden to enter Israel

I don't know when Israel's leaders will realize they are no different than Iran's leaders.

 

[Violet_0]

well played, Israel

err, I meant not ... not well played

 

[magash]

Oh for fuck's sake.

These people are fucking stupid.

 

[Chichikov]

These people are fucking stupid.

Eli Yishai is exceedingly stupid even by the region's standards.

 

[Barbacoatl]

It's ok, everyone needs its Salman Rushdie.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I don't know when Israel's leaders will realize they are no different than Iran's leaders.

That's the dumbest shit I've read here in a while. No different? Please.

 

[magash]

Eli Yishai is exceedingly stupid even by the region's standards.

People may have problems with Grass's past and dishonesty but that shouldn't take away from the truth.Honestly speaking I do not know what is wrong with the Israeli government. Little by little people all over the world are starting to mistrust Israel. This whole cold era non-sense going on between Iran and Israel needs to stop now before we reach the point of no return.

 

[Kinyou]

That's the dumbest shit I've read here in a while. No different? Please.

I don't think he means it in all aspects. But banning someone from entering your country just because he criticized it, sure sounds like something the Iran would do as well.

btw. Grass also made clear that he only meant to criticize the goverment of Israel, not its people

With hindsight, he told Süddeutsche Zeitung, he would have rewritten his poem to "make it clearer that I am primarily talking about the [Netanyahu] government". He added: "I have often supported Israel, I have often been in the country and want the country to exist and at last find peace with its neighbours." Netanyahu, he said, was damaging Israel.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I don't think he means it in all aspects. But banning someone from entering your country just because he criticized it, sure sounds like something the Iran would do as well.

It sounds like something a lot of countries would do. To say that they're no different than Iran's leaders is just dumb.

 

[F#A#Oo]

What I don't understand is how anyone can hold conscription during WW2 against someone...

No one other than those people can know the state of the country and how the people felt because of the Treaty of Versailles...which is a crippling agreement and served no other purpose other than to keep Germany down.

Personally I feel it's very harsh to dismiss people just because they happened to support what many believed was a stronger Germany...who doesn't want their country to be healthy and strong?

 

[v1oz]

What I don't understand is how anyone can hold conscription during WW2 against someone...

I agree. Besides being in the armed forces is just a job. People do it to feed their families not because they agree with the politicians. I know many soldiers who personally opposed the Iraqi war, but they still carried on with their jobs. I think legally you have do as told when you sign up whatever your personal views.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Oh silly German, the Israeli-Palestinian ''conflict'' is not a ''real'' problem. Why don't you go write poems about Syria or Iran. In a letter to protesters wanting to travel to the West Bank:

You could have chosen to protest the Syrian regime's daily savagery against its own people, which has claimed thousands of lives," the letter read. "You could have chosen to protest the Iranian regime's brutal crackdown on dissent and support of terrorism throughout the world. But instead you chose to protest against Israel, the Middle East's sole democracy ... We therefore suggest that you first solve the real problems of the region, and then come back and share with us your experience. Have a nice flight.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0414/israel-to-block-protesters-travelling-from-europe.html

 

[Kinyou]

Ugh, it's like a contest about who can be the bigger idiot.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

What I don't understand is how anyone can hold conscription during WW2 against someone...

It's worth pointing out that unlike the United States or Britain and the Commenwealth, being a conscientious objector in Germany at that point probably wouldn't have resulted in a stint in jail...

 

[SolidusDave]

You really have to keep the context in mind. I read comments here like "Germany should not say something against Israel etc.".
This is actually quite ironic because it's the sad reality. The German government is basically forced to support Israel no matter what. Whenever something bad happens there, it's all *shrug* "oh well, we don't think that was nice of you, but carry on".

So officially or even in the German media it's hard to voice valid criticism without getting attacked from all sides (including other Germans). Even though large parts of the population certainly don't like some of the actions of the current Government of Israel.

I think it's great that the guilt/awareness of WW2 is rooted deep in German minds and society, considering how certain other countries simple tend to ignore their past. But here it's stupid because it has nothing to do with Nazis, Jewish people or antisemitism.


So the poem might be shitty/exaggerated, but the reactions to it show exactly this oversensitivity.

 

[RawPower]

No one other than those people can know the state of the country and how the people felt because of the Treaty of Versailles...which is a crippling agreement and served no other purpose other than to keep Germany down.

Personally I feel it's very harsh to dismiss people just because they happened to support what many believed was a stronger Germany...who doesn't want their country to be healthy and strong?

I hope I'm not misinterpreting you here, but wanting a stronger and healthier country is no excuse to attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group (several actually, if we count gypsies, Poles, etc.) off the face of the Earth.

 

[RawPower]

You really have to keep the context in mind. I read comments here like "Germany should not say something against Israel etc.".
This is actually quite ironic because it's the sad reality. The German government is basically forced to support Israel no matter what. Whenever something bad happens there, it's all *shrug* "oh well, we don't think that was nice of you, but carry on".

So officially or even in the German media it's hard to voice valid criticism without getting attacked from all sides (including other Germans). Even though large parts of the population certainly don't like some of the actions of the current Government of Israel.

I think it's great that the guilt/awareness of WW2 is rooted deep in German minds and society, considering how certain other countries simple tend to ignore their past. But here it's stupid because it has nothing to do with Nazis, Jewish people or antisemitism.


So the poem might be shitty/exaggerated, but the reactions to it show exactly this oversensitivity.

I think the backlash has more to do with his Nazi past than his country of origin. And compounded with the fact that he seems to have singled out Israel and not their neighbors who also have fucked up governments and it just doesn't look good on the outside.

 

[pgtl_10]

People jump at this guy for saying stuff like Israel will annihilate the Iranian people or equates Israel with Iran but he is any different than Pro-Israel supporters?

1. Benjamin Netanyahu believes the Palestinians are the Amelikites and has liken Iran to the Nazis
2. Benny Morris wrote in the NY Times that if America didn't attack Iran then Israel would use a nuke.

Frankly Grass is attacked for writing an anti-Israel poem but what he called for and equating Israel with Iran is no different than what pro-Israel supporters do all the time.

Also the joint inspection that Grass calls for makes sense because the goal is to make the ME a nuclear weapons free zone. It is entirely reasonable to expect Israel and Iran to have joint inspections to enforce that.

 

[Joni]

It's worth pointing out that unlike the United States or Britain and the Commenwealth, being a conscientious objector in Germany at that point probably wouldn't have resulted in a stint in jail...

Indeed, it would have resulted in a bullet in the head at that time of the war.

Oh silly German, the Israeli-Palestinian ''conflict'' is not a ''real'' problem. Why don't you go write poems about Syria or Iran. In a letter to protesters wanting to travel to the West Bank

Syria and Iran should start doing this and just sending this letter with it for irony.