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[BocoDragon]

yea.....fuck that.

entering another country is a privileged, not a right. immigrants ought to do their best to respect the land and those who are already there. I'm not down with people coming to a country, segregating themselves and dismissing the people and cultures that made the country the immigrant came to with living in.

so yea...fuck that.

Then you don't like multiculturalism.

That's fine. I understand the desire for people to join your tribe, and think, act, and speak like you.

But if you let go of that desire... there is already peace.

Personally I like that there's a distinct Chinese community. Are they barred from my white culture? Am I barred from their Chinese culture? Not at all. I can go over there, date their women (if I'm skilled enough), eat their food. It's fine. We don't have to whitewash people to have wonderful interaction with them.

 

[Warm Machine]

yea.....fuck that.

entering another country is a privileged, not a right. immigrants ought to do their best to respect the land and those who are already there. I'm not down with people coming to a country, segregating themselves and dismissing the people and cultures that made the country the immigrant came to with living in.

so yea...fuck that.

I mostly agree. If you want to come to a country to set up a life you need to find a country that is compatible with your way of life , your standard of living, and values. I'd have that mindset anywhere I go. Hell, I do when I travel.

 

[The Technomancer]

Multiculturalism was always destined to fail one one level because you have some generations that were raised in a mono-culture, and so they will always be paranoid and defensive of "their" people. But multiculturalism is also inevitably destined for eventual success, as each succeeding generation cares less and less about the race and ethnicity of their peers.

Hopefully by 2050 we'll stop worrying about this stuff.

 

[RustyNails]

yea.....fuck that.

entering another country is a privileged, not a right. immigrants ought to do their best to respect the land and those who are already there. I'm not down with people coming to a country, segregating themselves and dismissing the people and cultures that made the country the immigrant came to with living in.

so yea...fuck that.

So I take it you've never been to a city big as Chicago or NYC? Practically every immigrant community here has its own neighborhood. As far as you're concerned, they've pretty much segregated themselves.

 

[Warm Machine]

Then you don't like multiculturalism.

That's fine. I understand the desire for people to join your tribe, and think, act, and speak like you.

But if you let go of that desire... there is already peace.

Personally I like that there's a distinct Chinese community. Are they barred from my white culture? Am I barred from their Chinese culture? Not at all. I can go over there, date their women (if I'm skilled enough), eat their food. It's fine. We don't have to whitewash people to have wonderful interaction with them.

It isn't a whitewash, its a lifestyle. You are looking at it racially isntead of the shared experience of the nation. A communal exceptance for people, skin colour, and belief systems within the laws and freedoms of the country.

 

[Terrell]

yea.....fuck that.

entering another country is a privileged, not a right. immigrants ought to do their best to respect the land and those who are already there. I'm not down with people coming to a country, segregating themselves and dismissing the people and cultures that made the country the immigrant came to with living in.

so yea...fuck that.

Well, he's half correct. I don't expect assimilation, but I do expect a reverence and understanding of the culture they have opted to join into, which I don't see as much of as I would like.
We're not a "melting pot" culture, we're more of a patch-work quilt.
But, to extend the metaphor, that only works if each patch is willing to be stitched on to make it a whole. I see non-integrating immigrants as a patch of the quilt held on by a single stitch.

And BTW, Boco? Saying this....

Then you don't like multiculturalism.

.... is the same as the right-wing American argument that you support terrorism because you disagree with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
We're allowed to agree on the benefits of a true multi-cultural nation while still disagreeing with factors that degrade its effectiveness. One is not mutually exclusive to the other. Integration =/= assimilation, as your argument implies.

 

[The Technomancer]

So I take it you've never been to a city big as Chicago or NYC? Practically every immigrant community here has its own neighborhood. As far as you're concerned, they've pretty much segregated themselves.

Well there's an inherent problem here. Its incredibly difficult for people to segregate themselves into distinct groups but at the same time be completely tolerant and understanding of each other. The "group" dynamic creates an inherent "us" and "them" system, because "they" all live in that neighborhood, and "we" all live over here.

That's just how human nature works. We love feeling like our team is the best. It sucks in these kinds of contexts.

Holding onto your culture by respecting your traditions, expressing your heritage, and speaking your language = good ways to move towards a tolerant society. Holding onto your culture by living in an insular group of like-cultured people = easy ways to enable groupthink and jingoism on both sides.

 

[BocoDragon]

I mostly agree. If you want to come to a country to set up a life you need to find a country that is compatible with your way of life , your standard of living, and values. I'd have that mindset anywhere I go. Hell, I do when I travel.

But does that mean speaking only English, ignoring and dismantling elements of the old culture in favor of the new (european white person) culture? I think not.

I'm not sure if something like Sharia law is compatable with Canadian values.... but Indian food, sikh religion and Cantonese are compatible enough, even if they are "alien" to white culture.

 

[BocoDragon]

It isn't a whitewash, its a lifestyle. You are looking at it racially isntead of the shared experience of the nation. A communal exceptance for people, skin colour, and belief systems within the laws and freedoms of the country.

I think most people who come here do have a shared experience of freedom, etc. It's not as if they're demanding we change for them. Most "get" the shared experience of peace, freedom, inter-cultural co-operation and capitalism. The Chinese-Canadians who remain Chinese DO share our core values.

But... I don't expect people who move here to essentially adopt European (Caucasian) culture and forget everything about their old culture. I know some people think that's the ideal. I do not.

 

[Warm Machine]

But does that mean speaking only English, ignoring and dismantling elements of the old culture in favor of the new (european white person) culture? I think not.

I'm not sure if something like Sharia law is compatable with Canadian values.... but Indian food, sikh religion and Cantonese are compatible enough, even if they are "alien" to white culture.

You don't enter a new country to only recreate your homeland on its soil.

Germans, French, Irish, Dutch, Italian, English, Spanish, Ukrainians, Russians, Danish, Norwegian, etc all came to North America and assimilated together under a number of religions and home lifestyle to build a common shared experience. Calling them "white" is pretty naive and a misunderstanding of what was achieved by the original waves of immigrants. That English as a language was agreed upon is pretty amazing actually. Hell, when my Danish relatives came to Canada they immediately stopped speaking Danish and learned and only ever spoke English and French.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

I think most people who come here do have a shared experience of freedom, etc. It's not as if they're demanding we change for them. Most "get" the shared experience of peace, freedom, inter-cultural co-operation and capitalism. The Chinese-Canadians who remain Chinese DO share our core values.

But... I don't expect people who move here to essentially adopt European (Caucasian) culture and forget everything about their old culture. I know some people think that's the ideal. I do not.

Well, I always thought one of the pluses of immigrating to Canada was that you COULD keep your culture/language/etc intact and not have to worry about integration. Though it's not FORCED upon you, it certainly makes your life a lot more difficult if you don't change.

 

[RustyNails]

Well there's an inherent problem here. Its incredibly difficult for people to segregate themselves into distinct groups but at the same time be completely tolerant and understanding of each other. The "group" dynamic creates an inherent "us" and "them" system, because "they" all live in that neighborhood, and "we" all live over here.

That's just how human nature works. We love feeling like our team is the best. It sucks in these kinds of contexts.

But that's how it has always been in USA. There is never full 100% integration as in an immigrant throwing his clothes at the airport and becoming Americanized the moment he steps in. The fact that multiple cultures exist in such a dynamic setting within the American legal framework shows that its the best option available for a multicultural society. Their kids might become fully integrated few years down the road, but those neighborhoods are not going away. New immigrants from those countries are always arriving, and the neighborhood is the place they will most likely stay. Its like a never ending water pitcher. Its pouring out integrated kids (or integrated families into the suburbs), but new arrivals are pouring inside it as well.

 

[Devolution]

You know a lot of cultural districts are so because of racism not necessarily immigrants refusing to assimilate.

 

[BocoDragon]

You don't enter a new country to only recreate your homeland on its soil.

Germans, French, Irish, Dutch, Italian, English, Spanish, Ukrainians, Russians, Danish, Norwegian, etc all came to North America and assimilated together under a number of religions and home lifestyle to build a common shared experience. Calling them "white" is pretty naive and a misunderstanding of what was achieved by the original waves of immigrants. That English as a language was agreed upon is pretty amazing actually. Hell, when my Danish relatives came to Canada they immediately stopped speaking Danish and learned and only ever spoke English and French.

I actually think the fact that my German/Norwegian ancestors forced themselves to pretend they were English (or French) is kind of unfortunate. I'd rather we kept both languages like the newer immigrants do.

And by the way, our ancestors abandoned their mother tongues BEFORE official multi-culturalism in the 70s. They were assimilated. It's the opposite of the multi-culturalism policy.

I understand the "misery loves company" desire to see everyone else abandon their mother toungue for English... but I actually think the newer immigrants have it correct. We can learn 2, 3, 4+ languages easily. Know English, of course... but if you speak something else at home or with "your people" there's nothing at all wrong with that.

Well, I always thought one of the pluses of immigrating to Canada was that you COULD keep your culture/language/etc intact and not have to worry about integration. Though it's not FORCED upon you, it certainly makes your life a lot more difficult if you don't change.

Exactly.

A lot of people who came to Canada wouldn't have come here if they forced them to abandon everything they knew, loved, and thought was worth preserving...

 

[braves01]

yea.....fuck that.

entering another country is a privileged, not a right. immigrants ought to do their best to respect the land and those who are already there. I'm not down with people coming to a country, segregating themselves and dismissing the people and cultures that made the country the immigrant came to with living in.

so yea...fuck that.

I agree, though cultural exchange has to flow both ways within reason.

 

[Terrell]

A lot of people who came to Canada wouldn't have come here if they forced them to abandon everything they knew, loved, and thought was worth preserving...

Most Canadians don't ask them to. I don't. You're making this a black-and-white debate, which it clearly isn't.

 

[Veidt]

Funny how a few extremists have triggered the true xenophobic nature of a lot of people.
It's as if this were all a test, and the people who stay open minded really are open minded at heart; as opposed to those that only surrender to it because it's the status quo.

 

[BocoDragon]

Most Canadians don't ask them to. I don't. You're making this a black-and-white debate, which it clearly isn't.

I don't think it's a black and white debate.

Even while I argue for multi-culturalism, I know it has difficulties in spades. It's difficult when people act differently.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Deutschland, are you guys serious?

 

[Warm Machine]

A lot of people who came to Canada wouldn't have come here if they forced them to abandon everything they knew, loved, and thought was worth preserving...

A lot of people wouldn't leave where they are from if the conditions there didn't suck balls. That is why you have immigrants in the first place...to go where they believe there is a better life on offer. European immigration to North America is pretty much non existant now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about people having and supporting a culture within their families and community. I'm just not interested in seeing a recreation of what people are escaping from somewhere else and then having that country mop up the mess.

 

[Veidt]

A German friend of mine is always embarrased when he compares Germany to the UK. He's genuinely perplexed that there's more multiculturalism here, and that the vast majority of people have just accepted it, as opposed to what he experienced in Germany. He's surprised he hasn't witnessed any instances of racism for the past 4 years he's been here.

 

[RustyNails]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about people having and supporting a culture within their families and community. I'm just not interested in seeing a recreation of what people are escaping from somewhere else and then having that country mop up the mess.

You have shown your true self. Are you saying they're escaping their own culture and then recreating it over in the west, which the west has to mop up? Don't you think they're escaping socio-political economic conditions of their countries?

 

[BocoDragon]

A lot of people wouldn't leave where they are from if the conditions there didn't suck balls. That is why you have immigrants in the first place...to go where they believe there is a better life on offer. European immigration to North America is pretty much non existant now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about people having and supporting a culture within their families and community. I'm just not interested in seeing a recreation of what people are escaping from somewhere else and then having that country mop up the mess.

Fair enough.

You know what the unifying Canadian religion is, though? Hockey.

I get brown and asian people yapping at me about hockey all the time... New immigrants, too.

Spoiler

i don't care about hockey ><

You have shown your true self. Are you saying they're escaping their own culture and then recreating it over in the west, which the west has to mop up? Don't you think they're escaping socio-political economic conditions of their countries?

Some of them aren't even escaping. Why do S. Koreans move here? Their economy is fine. Some people just want to live somewhere else.

 

[Bento]

No surprise really, tough economic times and a chancellor and a political party with no tricks up their sleeve on how to fix this jobless recovery. So what to do? Immigration debate of course! Push all that ridiculous important stuff ahead that needs addressing now but that is shunned for the sake of political maneuvering.

How predictable.

A German friend of mine is always embarrased when he compares Germany to the UK. He's genuinely perplexed that there's more multiculturalism here, and that the vast majority of people have just accepted it, as opposed to what he experienced in Germany. He's surprised he hasn't witnessed any instances of racism for the past 4 years he's been here.

May I ask where in the UK you and your friend are? Seems to me like the UK have been just as struck by the "debate" as most of Europe has.

 

[nyong]

Europe has rediscovered this unpleasant reality (fact?) several times throughout history. Hell, the French burka thing is more or less exactly what happened with the Jews a couple hundred years ago.

In the U.S. the Republicans and Democrats--people who barely even qualify as culturally different in many ways--are at each other's throats over the stupidest things. Multiculturalism will never work beyond the superficial...or at least some sort of segregated model, like in Canada. Familiarity tends to breed contempt.

 

[Devolution]

No surprise really, tough economic times and a chancellor and a political party with no tricks up their sleeve on how to fix this jobless recovery. So what to do? Immigration debate of course! Push all that ridiculous important stuff ahead that needs addressing now but that is shunned for the sake of political maneuvering.

How predictable.

Pretty much any western imperialist country has no right to complain about immigrants when the dire straits many countries are in are due to direct economic manipulation by first world nations. Like when Americans complain about Mexican immigrants (when we screwed their economy and forced NAFTA down their throats), I just sigh bitterly.

Groups like the WTO and World Bank aren't helping matters either.

 

[Warm Machine]

You have shown your true self. Are you saying they're escaping their own culture and then recreating it over in the west, which the west has to mop up? Don't you think they're escaping socio-political economic conditions of their countries?

Yes, "socio-political economic conditions of their countries" is exactly what I think they are escaping from. I think you are a little too quick on the racist button there

And yeah, Hockey is an incredible equalizer. I'm actually surprised in Europe football/soccer doesn't have the same pull that brings people together given the popularity it has. Or maybe it is such a given it hardly counts...

 

[BocoDragon]

Multiculturalism will never work beyond the superficial...or at least some sort of segregated model, like in Canada.

There's nothing segregated about it though. The ethnicities are mixed up in most places of Canada. Of course you have large areas to where people from the same culture have migrated. Obviously they would want to be near one another for business and socializing. Every other ethnicity can and does go set up shop in each "cultural ghetto"... it's nothing "segregated", there just happens to be more of one kind of people, naturally.

I think people like to hate on this issue. People feel weird about the different cultures thing. But in reality, in Canada, it works. It's peaceful here.

 

[Devolution]

There's nothing segregated about it though. The ethnicities are mixed up in most places of Canada. Of course you have large areas to where people from the same culture have migrated. Obviously they would want to be near one another for business and socializing. Every other ethnicity can and does go set up shop in each "cultural ghetto"... it's nothing "segregated", there just happens to be more of one kind of people, naturally.

I think people like to hate on this issue. People feel weird about the different cultures thing. But in reality, in Canada, it works. It's peaceful here.

Personally I love hitting up places like Chinatown (oak or sf), Japantown (sf), Koreatown (oak) and Little Italy (sf), and I've never felt like some "intruder" either.

 

[BocoDragon]

Personally I love hitting up places like Chinatown (oak or sf), Japantown (sf), Koreatown (oak) and Little Italy (sf), and I've never felt like some "intruder" either.

Yeah I like it too. It's fun.. You get to explore different cultures in your own country.

 

[Lunchbox]

didnt they just recently get done paying the reparations for world war 1?

do the fuckers want another one ?

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Poland, watch your six.

 

[nyong]

There's nothing segregated about it though. The ethnicities are mixed up in most places of Canada. Of course you have large areas to where people from the same culture have migrated. Obviously they would want to be near one another for business and socializing. Every other ethnicity can and does go set up shop in each "cultural ghetto"... it's nothing "segregated", there just happens to be more of one kind of people, naturally.

This is just it, though. Cross-cultural interaction is completely different than forcing several different cultures to live amongst each other under the same set of rules. Before nationalism, you had these "natural" pockets of varying ethnicities who paid taxes to the same figurehead, but lived (largely) under their own set of rules...and it was somewhat peaceful (at times). This is closer to the Canadian model.

I'm basing this off a college course too...my first-hand knowledge of Canada is limited.

 

[Canova]

it's working up here in canada

Multiculturalism is actually hard to implement. Canada is the exception, not the rule. No other country can integrate immigrants as seamlessly as Canada

 

[Dabookerman]

I have family in the uk living in strictly Indian communities. Some have lived here for 30 years.. That can't speak English.

That's fail right there.

 

[BocoDragon]

This is just it, though. Cross-cultural interaction is completely different than forcing several different cultures to live amongst each other under the same set of rules. Before nationalism, you had these "natural" pockets of varying ethnicities who paid taxes to the same figurehead, but lived (largely) under their own set of rules...and it was somewhat peaceful. This is closer to the Canadian model, which is not to say that that's a bad thing.

I'm basing this off a college course too...my first-hand knowledge of Canada is limited.

Very interesting topic! But taking your question seriously, I would say that Canada is mostly not that. Most of it is a true mixture of ethnicities across the whole swath of the country. Vancouver and Toronto have their little ethnic neighborhoods, but it's more unusual that they've managed to coalesce into ethnic hoods at all. The norm is mixture between the ethnicities.

Multiculturalism is actually hard to implement. Canada is the exception, not the rule. No other country can integrate immigrants as seamlessly as Canada

Right. And I agree that maybe we had it easy.

I'm taking lots of Canadian history and.. we've been multicultural since the beginning... side by side with the natives, black refugees from the US, Chinese workers, etc.

 

[El Sloth]

So I take it you've never been to a city big as Chicago or NYC? Practically every immigrant community here has its own neighborhood. As far as you're concerned, they've pretty much segregated themselves.

That's exactly what they've done.

 

[nelsonroyale]

I agree that if you go to a country you should learn the language....pity alot of european/American people are pretty terrible at doing that when they also go abroad...

To be honest, I have no love for the kind of nationalism peddled today, insipid and shallow...personally I think the nationalistic state is failing

 

[Mailenstein]

Amazing, how much bullshit can be posted within two pages. Congrats stupido-GAF.

 

[BocoDragon]

.... is the same as the right-wing American argument that you support terrorism because you disagree with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
We're allowed to agree on the benefits of a true multi-cultural nation while still disagreeing with factors that degrade its effectiveness. One is not mutually exclusive to the other. Integration =/= assimilation, as your argument implies.

Yeah, basically. If you don't agree with me you ally with Osama bin Hitler.

Amazing, how much bullshit can be posted within two pages. Congrats stupido-GAF.

*bows*

 

[Ashes]

So what's her solution?

smh.

 

[Xapati]

> Germany has very liberal immigration policy.
> Germany asks some critical questions about said policy.
> GAF: When are you starting up the ovens again Germany?

Stay classy GAF.

 

[gofreak]

You don't enter a new country to only recreate your homeland on its soil.

Germans, French, Irish, Dutch, Italian, English, Spanish, Ukrainians, Russians, Danish, Norwegian, etc all came to North America and assimilated together under a number of religions and home lifestyle to build a common shared experience. Calling them "white" is pretty naive and a misunderstanding of what was achieved by the original waves of immigrants. That English as a language was agreed upon is pretty amazing actually. Hell, when my Danish relatives came to Canada they immediately stopped speaking Danish and learned and only ever spoke English and French.

I think the cultures/nationalities listed have an easier time getting along with one another. Mostly. It doesn't surprise me that they would manage to integrate well over time. And it's the same in Europe, mostly no one has a problem with people from around the 'old-class' of Europe moving around within each others limits. Germany doesn't have a problem with Irish, French, Dutch, Italian, English etc..

It seems to be when you mix in a group of people perceived to be very different, that's when some people start getting antsy. The number one source of immigrants in Germany are Turkish people (oh noes!) and I bet they are the group some Germans would most like to go home. Our German teacher used to always harp on about how Germany signed up to get Turkish workers when it needed them, but is now hesitating on it (and this was maybe ten years ago when she was saying this). Muslims in general are that group today in Europe. America had this problem with black people, and there are some renewed problems on other fronts in some parts that wouldn't seem out of line with the problems parts of Europe is having (regarding muslims specifically).

edit - maybe the lesson from the groups you list is to wait it out. Contact and mixing ultimately led to them lowering their shields, so to speak. It wasn't all roses starting out though. People who are perceived to be VERY different might take longer to gel well though.

 

[DaMan121]

Living in a multicultural society, there are many people of my 'culture' that I would love to see leave the country.

 

[Extollere]

Color me surprised.

Subtle... :lol

 

[Forsete]

Its getting more and more obvious that this thing is a failure across most of Europe. Glad some politicians have the balls to talk about it. Props to Merkel.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Before going all out on the nazi joke and so on.

The problem that the german are facing is the following
Fight in the classroom (german public tv)

It not like they woke up and decided to have a nazi Party.
I was 5 month in frankfurt at the beginning of the year and frankly i wouldn't expect them to raise an eyebrow unless the problem was really serious

 

[Igo]

You don't enter a new country to only recreate your homeland on its soil.

Germans, French, Irish, Dutch, Italian, English, Spanish, Ukrainians, Russians, Danish, Norwegian, etc all came to North America and assimilated together under a number of religions and home lifestyle to build a common shared experience. Calling them "white" is pretty naive and a misunderstanding of what was achieved by the original waves of immigrants. That English as a language was agreed upon is pretty amazing actually. Hell, when my Danish relatives came to Canada they immediately stopped speaking Danish and learned and only ever spoke English and French.

Discovered this in the Reddit post on this topic.

"Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation…and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ’tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain…Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it…I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties...In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious."
Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion. Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.

http://www.dialoginternational.com/dialog_international/2008/02/ben-franklin-on.html

 

[Neo C.]

> Germany has very liberal immigration policy.
> Germany asks some critical questions about said policy.
> GAF: When are you starting up the ovens again Germany?

Stay classy GAF.

Germany only has a liberal immigration policy on certain aspects. The country struggles to let more high qualified people in, partly because of bureaucracy.

Seehofer and Merkel don't ask questions about said policy, they are just acting populistic because the party hast lost votes and elections. The minister of economy, Brüderle, actually wants more immigrants, because the industry needs them desperately.

They said immigration, but they mean assimilation. The germans don't do enough for the integration, many people don't realize that integration isn't one-sided.

 

[Forsete]

The minister of economy, Brüderle, actually wants more immigrants, because the industry needs them desperately.
.

Why? Isnt the unemployment rate around 7-8%? Better get those working before bringing in more.