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[Peter Ian Staker]

US gaf was apparently under the impression Merkel was a liberal.

Just because the GOP lost it's mind doesn't mean that other mainstream conservative parties in the world aren't well... conservative.

 

[Ac30]

It's pretty genius really.

Is it? Her opponents can hammer her on her "no" vote and the youth won't take kindly to that.

 

[Clessidor]

that's why this vote is so dumb
and why we still don't have the same-sex-marriage up to date

this will get shut down by the federal court
and a constitutional change requires a 2 thirds majority (good luck with that next term in the Bundestag including AFD)


but at least they can proclaim a "win"
i honestly don't get why the don't just make a eingetragene Lebenspartnerschaft with the fucking same exact rightly like a marriage.
it would be basically the same but still called different, so even people against same-sex-marriage would be fine because it's no marriage

I doubt this will be shut down by the federal court. The Basic Law doesn't really specify the term "marriage" and only defines a family as a construct with "parents" and "children". Nothing about sex or gender.
The federal court really would have to interpret the law and what the term "marriage" means. The last time they did was in 2002, but we have no clue if they would interpret again, considering how the public view on this topic has changed over the years.

Also there also needs to be someone who would start a case in front of the federal court. We haven't heard anything yet about members of the Bundestag or federal state governments intending to do so. We only heard the argument made that it's unconstitutional. But really I doubt it.

 

[Fritz]

Merkel is whatever she needs to be for maximum personal gain. She is flipfloping like no other politician.

That she did vote no is proof that she is not and that you are hyperboling

 

[Purkake4]

US gaf was apparently under the impression Merkel was a liberal.

This, I guess many people get their news about European politics through headlines and soundbites. Merkel is a shrewd politician above everything else and she needs the support of her (conservative) party.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Is it? Her opponents can hammer her on her "no" vote and the youth won't take kindly to that.

I doubt that gets any traction beyond the weekend.

 

[Shiggy]

that's why this vote is so dumb
and why we still don't have the same-sex-marriage up to date

this will get shut down by the federal court
and a constitutional change requires a 2 thirds majority (good luck with that next term in the Bundestag including AFD)


but at least they can proclaim a "win"
i honestly don't get why the don't just make a eingetragene Lebenspartnerschaft with the fucking same exact rightly like a marriage.
it would be basically the same but still called different, so even people against same-sex-marriage would be fine because it's no marriage

That would have been too easy.

But I agree, getting a 2/3 majority in the next Bundestag is going to be difficult.

Is it? Her opponents can hammer her on her "no" vote and the youth won't take kindly to that.

It's something that affects only a minority. Most people don't care about it as it simply doesn't affect them. Those people who get offended by her vote now probably wouldn't have voted for her before either.

 

[jstripes]

A good politician knows when to cede to public opinion, while still maintaining their own opinion. She knows it's what the people wanted, even if she didn't want it.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

A good politician knows when to cede to public opinion, while still maintaining their own opinion. She knows it's what the people wanted, even if she didn't want it.

She tried to block the whole vote today via her party... I dont think she wanted this at all.

 

[Clefargle]

Congrats on the gay sex Germany!

🇩🇪 🍾🎉 🌈

 

[jstripes]

She tried to block the whole vote today via her party... I dont think she wanted this at all.

She knew her party was going to lose by a landslide, but she opened it up for a vote anyway.

 

[AmFreak]

She knew her party was going to lose by a landslide, but she opened it up for a vote anyway.

"Opened it up"?
There was nothing she could do to stop the vote.

 

[darkinstinct]

That would have been too easy.

But I agree, getting a 2/3 majority in the next Bundestag is going to be difficult.





It's something that affects only a minority. Most people don't care about it as it simply doesn't affect them. Those people who get offended by her vote now probably wouldn't have voted for her before either.

Nobody needs a 2/3 majority. Article 6 doesn't even mention men and women as part of marriage.

 

[Shiggy]

Nobody needs a 2/3 majority. Article 6 doesn't even mention men and women as part of marriage.

Article 6 has been interpreted by the German Federal Court several times before, and they always interpreted it as the bond between men and women, last time in 2013. Therefore, two years ago, even Maas' very own ministry said it would be necessary. So did a former judge of the Federal Constitutional Court today. So let's see, somebody will go to court over this for sure.

 

[RinsFury]

Glad it passed, but disgusted that Merkel voted against it. Either she is anti-LGBTQ+, or she is a coward, either way fuck her.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

The 'leader of the free world' doesn't believe homosexuals are human and that they don't deserve the same rights as straight people.

Maybe this will stop those same posters who keep crowing about it. Or does she improve in their eyes because Clinton also voted against same sex marriage?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Time for Austria to step it up.
(Orange: Same-sex marriage is allowed
Green: No marriage but same-sex union
Red: Neither)
I know it's about to happen cause our nazi far right party already puts out posters about the "value of the family"

 

[close to the edge]

Good on you guys. I wonder if us Austrians can follow suit, it would be nice. It'll at least start a new discussion about the topic. FPÖ is definitely going to be against, ÖVP is sort in the same boat as the CDU/CSU, but it doesn't have a Merkel-like figure that has enough political clout to move them in any direction, so I doubt it'll happen, unfortunately. Other relevant parties (SPÖ/Grüne) will be in favor, but they don't have the votes.

 

[Oriel]

that's why this vote is so dumb
and why we still don't have the same-sex-marriage up to date

this will get shut down by the federal court
and a constitutional change requires a 2 thirds majority (good luck with that next term in the Bundestag including AFD)


but at least they can proclaim a "win"
i honestly don't get why the don't just make a eingetragene Lebenspartnerschaft with the fucking same exact rightly like a marriage.
it would be basically the same but still called different, so even people against same-sex-marriage would be fine because it's no marriage

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Time for Austria to step it up.
(Orange: Same-sex marriage is allowed
Green: No marriage but same-sex union
Red: Neither)
I know it's about to happen cause our nazi far right party already puts out posters about the "value of the family"

What were the vote totals for same-sex marriage in Bavaria? I'd imagine they'd be pretty similar to the outlook in Austria, both of which are more conservative than Germany as a whole.

 

[hanspampel]

Nobody needs a 2/3 majority. Article 6 doesn't even mention men and women as part of marriage.

but that is the interpretation and view of the federal court since today.
so either that changes now, or it would not be conform
and the federal court is basically and instrument to stop flawed laws from our legislative as of late

[snip]

South Park on point as always

 

[kami_sama]

What were the vote totals for same-sex marriage in Bavaria? I'd imagine they'd be pretty similar to the outlook in Austria, both of which are more conservative than Germany as a whole.

Ah, Austria, the redneck cousin of Germany.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

but that is the interpretation and view of the federal court since today.
so either that changes now, or it would not be conform
and the federal court is basically and instrument to stop flawed laws from our legislative as of late


South Park on point as always

How can a former member of the federal court represent a opinion that can be called the interpretion of the current federal court?

 

[Linkyn]

What were the vote totals for same-sex marriage in Bavaria? I'd imagine they'd be pretty similar to the outlook in Austria, both of which are more conservative than Germany as a whole.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundestagsradar-das-sind-ihre-abgeordneten-a-928365.html#abstimmung=21

7 / 56 for yes from the CSU.

 

[hanspampel]

How can a former member of the federal court represent a opinion that can be called the interpretion of the current federal court?

maybe you mixed something up here
not his opinion is viewed as the interpretation of the current federal court

he just stated the current (better call it recent) interpretation of the federal court on marriage.
and based on that his own opinion is that the law is illegal

 

[whyamihere]

I doubt that gets any traction beyond the weekend.

Yup. It's diffused now. She made a good political move for herself. Gay marriage is legalized and she's either the one who brought the vote or the one who voted no. In the end, few will care past this week about the process. It was smart.

 

[Mivey]

Time for Austria to step it up.

I mean, sure it's gotten a bit cooler since Friday, but I think it will still be a while before Hell freezes over. I mean, we will have two parties that will most likely have a majority for the next 5 years, who might as well constitutionally prohibit it.

 

[The Lamp]

BBC is reporting this is more than just a simple vote, it changes legal implications. But people in this thread say it doesn't make a difference especially if the court gets involved. Who's wrong?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40441712

 

[Par Score]

i honestly don't get why the don't just make a eingetragene Lebenspartnerschaft with the fucking same exact rightly like a marriage.
it would be basically the same but still called different, so even people against same-sex-marriage would be fine because it's no marriage

Because separate but equal isn't equal.

People who are Gay or Lesbian deserve the same rights and treatment by the state as People who are Straight.

Pandering to bigots is not an acceptable reason for discrimination, and this sort of proposed solution is incredibly disrespectful.

but that is the interpretation and view of the federal court since today.
so either that changes now, or it would not be conform
and the federal court is basically and instrument to stop flawed laws from our legislative as of late

You must have missed the word "former" before the title Federal Judge.

Same-sex marriage is now the law of the land in Germany, deal with it.

 

[hanspampel]

You must have missed the word "former" before the title Federal Judge.

Same-sex marriage is now the law of the land in Germany, deal with it.

did you read my last post and the article?
are you German and know the judiciary here?

BBC is reporting this is more than just a simple vote, it changes legal implications. But people in this thread say it doesn't make a difference especially if the court gets involved. Who's wrong?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40441712

of course it changes legal implications. couldn't be possible without
what exactly do you mean by "it doesn't make a difference if the court gets involved"?

 

[mnz]

BBC is reporting this is more than just a simple vote, it changes legal implications. But people in this thread say it doesn't make a difference especially if the court gets involved. Who's wrong?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40441712

Basically some people are saying they need to change the constitution, article 6 to be precise, for full equality. I guess the constitutional court has to decide if that's true.

Article 6 [Marriage, Family, Children Out of Wedlock]
(1) Marriage and family are under the special protection of the state.
(2) Care and upbringing of children are the natural right of the parents and primarily their duty. The state supervises the exercise of the same.
(3) Against the will of the persons entitled to their upbringing, children may only be separated from the family, pursuant to a statute, where those so entitled failed or where, for other reasons, the children are endangered to become seriously neglected.
(4) Every mother is entitled to protection by and care of the community.
(5) Children out of wedlock, by legislation, have to be provided with the same conditions for their physical and mental development and for their place in society as are legitimate children.

 

[whyamihere]

Basically some people are saying they need to change the constitution, article 6 to be precise, for full equality. I guess the constitutional court has to decide if that's true.

I'm not pretending to be familiar with German law at all, but on its face, there isn't anything in there that would prohibit marriage equality?

 

[Irminsul]

I'm not pretending to be familiar with German law at all, but on its face, there isn't anything in there that would prohibit marriage equality?

In civil law, there's more to laws than just the text; there's also a"common interpretation", meaning further clarifications on how to interpret the text. Because laws are written for the general case, specific cases might need such further interpretation. The constitutional court's most recent interpretation of the word "marriage" is that it's a bond between a man and a woman.

That doesn't mean that you necessarily have to change the constitution, however. Someone has to go to court over the new law, then we'll get a new interpretation of said article of the constitution. It wouldn't be a really exceptional thing for the constitutional court to change its interpretation of articles of the constitution over time. That has happened before. I guess we'll see if someone actually goes against this.

 

[whyamihere]

In civil law, there's more to laws than just the text; there's also a"common interpretation", meaning further clarifications on how to interpret the text. Because laws are written for the general case, specific cases might need such further interpretation. The constitutional court's most recent interpretation of the word "marriage" is that it's a bond between a man and a woman.

That doesn't mean that you necessarily have to change the constitution, however. Someone has to go to court over the new law, then we'll get a new interpretation of said article of the constitution. It wouldn't be a really exceptional thing for the constitutional court to change its interpretation of articles of the constitution over time. That has happened before. I guess we'll see if someone actually goes against this.

Ah, thank you. Makes sense.

 

[gutter_trash]

Merkel and the CDU were the reason why they were so late in the first place.

It's like they are just reacting as a "bandwagon" - "bellweather" politicians to not be considered less progressive then their Western neighbors

better late than never, I guess

 

[LinkAndEpona]

Germany has been fairly progressive with things like the refugee crisis so I'd expect this to pass.

 

[darkinstinct]

That she did vote no is proof that she is not and that you are hyperboling

I don't think so. Proof: Her 180° stances on minimum wage, nuclear energy, refugees, compulsory military service, Erdogan. There is more. She always does what is best for herself and her party.

 

[Theonik]

*snip*

I mean, we can laugh but in many countries marriage is considered a matter of sacrament and is devolved to churches. Which is why the state instead opts to have alternative and equivalent civil administered and conducted by the state. Even heterosexual couples tend to opt for those as they tend to be cheaper and avoid other religious issues like sectarian issues.

 

[Violet_0]

Germany has been fairly progressive with things like the refugee crisis so I'd expect this to pass.

already passed, thread title needs to be updated

 

[Valhelm]

US gaf was apparently under the impression Merkel was a liberal.

Merkel is a liberal, but so is Paul Ryan. A lot of people don't realize that not everybody who adheres to liberal values is a good progressive.

 

[mnz]

Germany has been fairly progressive with things like the refugee crisis so I'd expect this to pass.

It's done

https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/880708057247952896

 

[gutter_trash]

US gaf was apparently under the impression Merkel was a liberal.

not only US gaf, I know a Canadian Far-Lelfty co-woerker who thought that Merkel was also a lefty just because of the refugee issue,

she was shocked and didn't believe me when I told her that Merkel is an establishment conservative

 

[How About No]

Congrats Germany!

🌈 🌈 🌈

But Merkel lol wtf

US gaf was apparently under the impression Merkel was a liberal.

...sigh *raises hand*

 

[GAMEPROFF]

But to be honest, even when i would never vote for her, if all conservatives would be like Merkel, able to switch to opposing povs, I think the world would be a better place.

 

[perfectchaos007]

US gaf was apparently under the impression Merkel was a liberal.

Well when GAF unites to proclaim her the leader of the free world I thought it was implied. Why would GAFers latch onto a conservative? Seemed improbable...

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Well when GAF unites to proclaim her the leader of the free world I thought it was implied. Why would GAFers latch onto a conservative? Seemed improbable...

Because not everything black or white, most the time there are shades of gray and Merkel did a fantastic job in the last months. And I still despise her for voting no today.

Also, what do you think of Obama, the previous leader of the free world? A guy who was letting people getting tortured in Guantanamo and killing people with drone strikes via Joystick? Doest look that leader of the worldish to me, too on the first view.

Still, I am able to get this booth in perspective and still consider Obama as one of the good guys.
And yes, I am aware that he wanted to close Guantanamo but didnt accomplished with that, even while it looks for me from my foreign perspective as this topic went completly away in the last four years. And I am still a big fan of Obama, so please dont get me wrong. Its just what it is, nobody is perfect.

 

[YourMaster]

Time for Austria to step it up.
(Orange: Same-sex marriage is allowed
Green: No marriage but same-sex union
Red: Neither)
I know it's about to happen cause our nazi far right party already puts out posters about the "value of the family"

Image is flawed. Northern Ireland and Faroe Islands still don't allow gay marriage.

 

[turmoil]

So Italy is the only major European country left behind now? How is the public opinion on equal marriage going there?

 

[Theonik]

...sigh *raises hand*

Her party is called the 'Christian Democratic Union' Germany in general is quite conservative despite the image they try to project out. Now at the same time Merkel is economically liberal. But that's it.

 

[Budi]

It's done

https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/880708057247952896

Haha, that blonde woman seems annoyed about those firecrackers.

Congrats to Germany!