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[Ghengis Cohen]

ahhh vark you make me laugh because it is so true. you forgot this one...
"i'm not artist, but wouldn't it be better if..."

"hey i'm not here to step on anybodies toes but..."

 

[dairladada]

Man, I admire anyone who is able to kick ass in making:
Platform games
Racing games
Shooting games
Fighting games
etc etc
all at ONCE!
No one else does it. Anyone else just keeps doing the same kind of game they know how to do. And when they try to do something else, they fail.
It's because Nintendo has a method and their method is prototyping.
Proto, proto, proto. No blah blah documents but hands on work.
Sorry but I do admire that. And if collisions were bad in Mario, you could not possibly finish it.
Ie: Hit the very edge of a block with your head and the collision will shift you on the side so you can complete your jump... That's gameplay and it's hardly noticable.

 

[Luckett_X]

oh i finished it alright. I guess I just analyse things closer than you, what with those fanboy goggles you gots on there boyo, must be obscuring your vision a little.

And i'm pretty sure Nintendo like all companies has masses of documentation ideas behind projects before just going at coding. WarioWare is a fine example with sketches of the initial design proposals having been shown in EDGE. so I know youre all exciteable and all, but some of your advice is coming across a little foolish!

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

Man, I admire anyone who is able to kick ass in making:
Platform games
Racing games
Shooting games
Fighting games
etc etc
all at ONCE!
No one else does it. Anyone else just keeps doing the same kind of game they know how to do. And when they try to do something else, they fail.
It's because Nintendo has a method and their method is prototyping.
Proto, proto, proto. No blah blah documents but hands on work.
Sorry but I do admire that. And if collisions were bad in Mario, you could not possibly finish it.
Ie: Hit the very edge of a block with your head and the collision will shift you on the side so you can complete your jump... That's gameplay and it's hardly noticable.

I'm sure budget and ridiculous amounts of time are also part of this seemingly magical nintendo formula you speak of.

 

[dairladada]

Nintendo does production documents, not game design documents, at least not Nintendo Japan.
Warioware DS is the result of all the protos they have made to show how to use the stylus, they did the same with the tilt sensor etc etc.
Warioware is the perfect exemple of how to use your protos to make a game.
I'm glad you analyse more than me and i will keep my Nintendo fan boy glasses on.

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

Nintendo does production documents, not game design documents, at least not Nintendo Japan.
Warioware DS is the result of all the protos they have made to show how to use the stylus, they did the same with the tilt sensor etc etc.
Warioware is the perfect exemple of how to use your protos to make a game.
I'm glad you analyse more than me and i will keep my Nintendo fan boy glasses on.

No Warioware is the perfect example of how to force a prototype into a game.

 

[dairladada]

Budgets and time limits are indeed a reality. That's why you need to use a pragmatic approach and prototype with whatever you can. Not just sit there and wait for your team to implement a version of the gameplay...

 

[dairladada]

It's not a prototype, it's hundreds of prototypes... They probalby built 5 times the amount and kept the one that worked.

 

[Vark]

Guys guys guys.

We're getting off point here. Less fighting, more spirit crushing!

 

[dairladada]

I don't understand why you guys are against prototyping or the fact that there is a lot to learn from Nintendo? Are you the storywriter wannabe types? You love to write these long documents describing how good your game is going to be?
I don't. I hate it.

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

Guys guys guys.

We're getting off point here. Less fighting, more spirit crushing!

IF YOU ARE GOING TO WORK IN GAMES BE PREPARED TO WORK 120 HOUR WORK WEEKS AND HAVE YOUR WIFE PISSED AT YOU FOR WEEKS ALL SO YOU CAN HAVE A MARKETING PERSON USE THE TERM TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC TO FLUSH YOUR WORK DOWN THE DRAIN

Better?

 

[dairladada]

LOL. That's better indeed.

 

[Vark]

IF YOU ARE GOING TO WORK IN GAMES BE PREPARED TO WORK 120 HOUR WORK WEEKS AND HAVE YOUR WIFE PISSED AT YOU FOR WEEKS ALL SO YOU CAN HAVE A MARKETING PERSON USE THE TERM TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC TO FLUSH YOUR WORK DOWN THE DRAIN

Better?

Music to my ears.

 

[dairladada]

Welcome to NPD hell!

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

I don't understand why you guys are against prototyping or the fact that there is a lot to learn from Nintendo? Are you the storywriter wannabe types? You love to write these long documents describing how good your game is going to be?
I don't. I hate it.

and of course I hate it. but often times you have to document extensively for other people. prototyping is a bit of a luxury, though it is better than almost anything.

 

[Vark]

ahhh vark you make me laugh because it is so true. you forgot this one...
"i'm not artist, but wouldn't it be better if..."

*twitch*

 

[dairladada]

Yeah documents are a necessity nowadays. But it's soooo WRONG!

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

*twitch*

"Seriously though Vark is there something you can do about that? That right there. It doesn't fit. It just doesn't."

 

[Vark]

"Seriously though Vark is there something you can do about that? That right there. It doesn't fit. It just doesn't."

FIXED:

"As Designed."

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

FIXED:

"As Designed."

My all time favorite field.

 

[sprsk]

From what vark is talking about, it doesnt sound like anything different than what ive done in film production or photo production, or on this forum as a mod hahaha.


also, clickteam.com, ive actually used click n create before. I used to make silly games when i was a kid (too bad i dont have them anymore :/) how do you integrate all the tools with multimedia fusion?

 

[Mr_Furious]

If you make a clone of something, you will be learning very, very little about game design.

Not true as BR mentioned. You can learn a lot about the design philosophies and disciplines if you analyze the game you choose to clone. Most games rarely come from original ideas anyways.

But you'd learn this stuff just as easily implementing a game of your own design.

There's something to be said about learning from others mistakes. It can also be less costly.

As for this topic: to whoever might be interested in design, pick a particular aspect of design and pursue it (game, level, story, technical). Also, don't expect to get your first job in the industry in that desired field. Get a QA job and show your skills when given the opportunity. Not many companies are going to trust amateurs in a design role unless it's of a severely junior level and then, they usually promote from within. There's no shortage of design posers in the QA pool.

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

There's something to be said about learning from others mistakes. It can also be less costly.

Thank you. That's exactly what I was trying to say. That way when you move onto something original, or that you really care about you will have the neccesry skills to actually make a game, not just bandy about design concepts. And yeah, start in QA. If you can't hack it there you have no place anyways.

 

[dairladada]

Yeah right.
Good luck with that.
Whatever.

It's like saying you can write good songs and play guitar because you can recognize things out of tune...
That would explain a lot of crappy titles...

 

[Ghengis Cohen]

Yeah right.
Good luck with that.
Whatever.

It's like saying you can write good songs and play guitar because you can recognize things out of tune...
That would explain a lot of crappy titles...

I actually meant if you can't hack the hours and amount of work you should try something else.

 

[Campster]

Not true as BR mentioned. You can learn a lot about the design philosophies and disciplines if you analyze the game you choose to clone. Most games rarely come from original ideas anyways.

There's something to be said about learning from others mistakes. It can also be less costly.

You can analyze games without actually recreating them. Directors don't need to reshoot Citizen Kane to gleam wisdom from it, and authors don't need to write their version of The Hero's Journey to become a full fledged writer.

The thrust of my argument is just this - there's a difference between implementation and design. And while implementation is absolutely critical for a designer to know and understand, one can't thrive on that alone. Just as a designer without any knowledge of implementation can't bring his ideas to life, a designer without any idea of how to design just ends up implementing the ideas that have already come to pass with his own flavoring.

If you're a high school or college kid or just anyone who has never made a game before, sitting down and completing your version of Tetris or Galaga is a major accomplishment. You'll have learned a lot, and more power to you. But if you're a college graduate with a few game clones in your portfolio and you want to be a game designer, then you really haven't learned anything other than the software engineering processes for games.

I really don't think we're even arguing - I agree that it's a worthwhile investment of your time if you've never done it before. But if you want to be a game designer it's important that you understand the strengths and weaknesses of the medium and how to use them to your advantage, and I think that at first you can only grasp them through experimentation.

 

[dairladada]

Agreed...
Cloning a mario properly though will show me that you have looked deeper at things. And I would hire you if you could do that.

 

[Ark-AMN]

I'm trying to get my first job now that I've graduated, haven't gone on an applying spree yet because I want to get my website at least somewhat presentable before I start sending out the resume's (which have the site URL on them, which I assume the companies will go to, especially to see my demo reel).

 

[Mr_Furious]

You can analyze games without actually recreating them. Directors don't need to reshoot Citizen Kane to gleam wisdom from it, and authors don't need to write their version of The Hero's Journey to become a full fledged writer.

The thrust of my argument is just this - there's a difference between implementation and design. And while implementation is absolutely critical for a designer to know and understand, one can't thrive on that alone. Just as a designer without any knowledge of implementation can't bring his ideas to life, a designer without any idea of how to design just ends up implementing the ideas that have already come to pass with his own flavoring.

If you're a high school or college kid or just anyone who has never made a game before, sitting down and completing your version of Tetris or Galaga is a major accomplishment. You'll have learned a lot, and more power to you. But if you're a college graduate with a few game clones in your portfolio and you want to be a game designer, then you really haven't learned anything other than the software engineering processes for games.

I really don't think we're even arguing - I agree that it's a worthwhile investment of your time if you've never done it before. But if you want to be a game designer it's important that you understand the strengths and weaknesses of the medium and how to use them to your advantage, and I think that at first you can only grasp them through experimentation.

My basic point is that you can learn a lot from other's attempts (contrary to your initial statement saying otherwise) and that information could be very valuable when designing future projects, original content or not. That's all. Your other points are valid in general and I don't think anyone's really saying otherwise. It's just that you said there's "very very little" that can be learned, design wise, by developing a clone and that's obviously not true.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

You would learn about implementation, without which you will stuck with a bunch of ideas and concepts and no idea how to design them into a game. I realize that design (since I actually do it) is not merely a technical process, but if you haven't a clue about implentation your ideas are never going to amount to anything except a collection of documents in the "old" folder.

Hahahah. Too true. Too true. You can write all you want, but you still have to be able to put it all together once the code and art are handed back to you.

Being a pen and paper designer, while not bad, just doesn't cut in anymore.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

ahhh vark you make me laugh because it is so true. you forgot this one...
"i'm not artist, but wouldn't it be better if..."

Try and work with a licensed IP where everyone from the publisher to the IP holder has a say in how to design the game and you HAVE to do what they say:

"Change the gameplay to be more like [hot game of the month]."
"But that wouldn't be fun because [long list of reasons] and it would impact our schedual and delieverable dates."
"Look, it's our way or the highway. And you have two weeks to do it in."

 

[Gazunta]

My basic point is that you can learn a lot from other's attempts (contrary to your initial statement saying otherwise) and that information could be very valuable when designing future projects, original content or not. That's all.

I gotta agree with that sentiment. I consider the first game I designed here a clone (GBA port of the console version, so I was supposed to be stealing!) and learned a hell of a lot about the underlying logic behind all the decisions that were made in the original game. My boss kindly refers to it as an original game but I consider it a clone of the console title which to me was the whole point of it and it's why I'm so proud of how it turned out. All the lessons I learned were applied when I started to make an original game so it was really worthwhile.

Hunter S. Thompson said he started learning about writing by writing, letter for letter, a copy of an Ernest Hemmingway novel. He said he learned more from that than anything else he did. For me, anyway, it's a viable learning tool about the realities of game design.

 

[M3wThr33]

We're working on our resumes right now in my game project class. From the tasks I've worked on my games for the last four years, I definitely have a tilt toward design instead of programming.

By the way, I'm playing the console Ty 2 (Finally beat Ty 1) and I'm a bit confused. The missions so far (11%) seem very disjointed. Lots of walking for no reason.

 

[Gooboo]

By the way, I'm playing the console Ty 2 (Finally beat Ty 1) and I'm a bit confused. The missions so far (11%) seem very disjointed. Lots of walking for no reason.

Becuase our initial design was overambitious, we had a new streaming system that we hadn't worked out fully so we ran out of memory a lot then we ran out of time.

The best trick to learn in game design is what you do and don't need in a game. So you can throw stuff out early on. Sometimes you need to learn that the hard way. eg TY 2.

 

[bluemax]

And if you're going for a programming job be prepared to enter the spirit crushing realm of debugging terrible code. A friend of mine who just got hired at a big name American developer told me about how most of his internship was spent debugging. Magic numbers and uninitalized variables all over the place he said. The joys of bad/lazy programmers and rushed development cycles!

 

[Twitchfactor]

I don't understand why you guys are against prototyping or the fact that there is a lot to learn from Nintendo? Are you the storywriter wannabe types? You love to write these long documents describing how good your game is going to be?
I don't. I hate it.

So Mr. Nintendo Is Gawd and Documenting is For Suckers,

Put up or shut up... what products have you worked on/made that prove this philosophy works, versus the other way around?

Hmm...