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[Nemesis121]

The boys mother is an idiot IMO, press charges don't leave their punishment in the hands of girls parents, they will continue to bully that kid after the punishment is over, if you arrest them it will have a better effect than parents punishment...

 

[TommyT]

Wondering if the reaction would be the same if the genders were switched...

First post gets it... even from a junior, well done.

If this were guys doing this to a girl they'd be branded sex offenders for life. This reminds me of the Law and Order lol right?!) where one guy was raped by a group of women and people just lol'd at him.

Spoiler

women were hot, and one later became an assistant DA of the show... LOL WAT?!

 

[Devolution]

First post gets it... even from a junior, well done.

If this were guys doing this to a girl they'd be branded sex offenders for life. This reminds me of the Law and Order lol right?!) where one guy was raped by a group of women and people just lol'd at him.

Spoiler

women were hot, and one later became an assistant DA of the show... LOL WAT?!

Haha yeah. Different character but it was totally awkward if you saw that episode.

 

[Lionheart1337]

Yeah I`m not sure how angry this makes me. A cruel joke, that's about it.

 

[SayItWithMe]

In my middle school days pantsing was really bad. Hanging out with my friends at lunch, a girl I liked told me to come over to a table her and a bunch of her girlfriends were sitting at. As soon as I could say what another girl was behind me and ripped both my pants and underwear all the way down to my ankles.

I NEVER remember boys pantsing girls and this was a first for my knowledge of girls doing it to guys at my school. Needless to say I was crazy embarassed and pissed but I got over it pretty quickly. I think what makes this story extreme is the video taping. That just makes it that much more messed up!

 

[Count Dookkake]

If we're gonna play the "what if" game...


What if the "pranksters" and the victim were of different races?

 

[anonnumber6]

In my middle school days pantsing was really bad. Hanging out with my friends at lunch, a girl I liked told me to come over to a table her and a bunch of her girlfriends were sitting at. As soon as I could say what another girl was behind me and ripped both my pants and underwear all the way down to my ankles.

I NEVER remember boys pantsing girls and this was a first for my knowledge of girls doing it to guys at my school. Needless to say I was crazy embarassed and pissed but I got over it pretty quickly. I think what makes this story extreme is the video taping. That just makes it that much more messed up!

...and then uploading it onto Youtube to further humiliate the guy.

 

[ChronicleX]

What if the "pranksters" and the victim were of different races?

 

[Flo_Evans]

If we're gonna play the "what if" game...


What if the "pranksters" and the victim were of different races?

 

[way more]

First post gets it... even from a junior, well done.

If this were guys doing this to a girl they'd be branded sex offenders for life. This reminds me of the Law and Order lol right?!) where one guy was raped by a group of women and people just lol'd at him.

Spoiler

women were hot, and one later became an assistant DA of the show... LOL WAT?!

People continue to say "what if the genders were switched," and then leave it at that level of elementary reasoning. But c'mon, can't we try to build upon that? It's not enough to simply say, "double standard." You need to ask why there is one.

The analogy I always use the the one of a white man calling a black man the n-word and then the black man retorting with "honkey." They have both insulted each other with slurs yet things are not equal. When it comes to issues of race or gender you can't just interchange actors. The biggest fallacy in these cases is to say, "I thought they wanted gender/racial equality"

 

[Alligatorjandro]

I would have pressed charges.

 

[Zoramon089]

If we're gonna play the "what if" game...


What if the "pranksters" and the victim were of different races?

 

[A Link to the Past]

People continue to say "what if the genders were switched," and then leave it at that level of elementary reasoning. But c'mon, can't we try to build upon that? It's not enough to simply say, "double standard." You need to ask why there is one.

The analogy I always use the the one of a white man calling a black man the n-word and then the black man retorting with "honkey." They have both insulted each other with slurs yet things are not equal. When it comes to issues of race or gender you can't just interchange actors. The biggest fallacy in these cases is to say, "I thought they wanted gender/racial equality"

You know what? Just say it - say nigger. There is nothing wrong with saying nigger as long as you're not trying to give it power. We all know what you're trying to say, and no one's going to chide you for saying it (no reasonable person, anyway). A double standard in a double standard eh? :B

Anyway, I digress; the double standard exists because men are not generally viewed as victims, so over time, they stop being victims - not because they are no longer victimized, but because people don't care enough.

 

[Flo_Evans]

People continue to say "what if the genders were switched," and then leave it at that level of elementary reasoning. But c'mon, can't we try to build upon that? It's not enough to simply say, "double standard." You need to ask why there is one.

The analogy I always use the the one of a white man calling a black man the n-word and then the black man retorting with "honkey." They have both insulted each other with slurs yet things are not equal. When it comes to issues of race or gender you can't just interchange actors. The biggest fallacy in these cases is to say, "I thought they wanted gender/racial equality"

To me the equality "what ifs" are not the biggest issue.

The issue is that this boys mother is deciding for him that nothing will happen to his attackers.

The whole idea of "I'm not pressing charges" is a fallacy brought about by movies... you really don't have a choice, it is the prosecutors decision to levy charges against these girls. They can take into account the wishes of a minors guardian, but she does not have the final say.

 

[Devolution]

You know what? Just say it - say nigger. There is nothing wrong with saying nigger as long as you're not trying to give it power. We all know what you're trying to say, and no one's going to chide you for saying it (no reasonable person, anyway). A double standard in a double standard eh? :B

Anyway, I digress; the double standard exists because men are not generally viewed as victims, so over time, they stop being victims - not because they are no longer victimized, but because people don't care enough.

It's more pervasive than that. Men are supposed to be capable of defending themselves so being a victim of a sexual assault, means they failed to live up to their "manhood." There are just as many horrible standards men are supposed to live up to that are unfair and bullshit.

 

[LaserBuddha]

It's more pervasive than that. Men are supposed to be capable of defending themselves so being a victim of a sexual assault, means they failed to live up to their "manhood." There are just as many horrible standards men are supposed to live up to that are unfair and bullshit.

I believe that, with the male psyche being what it is, and the female psyche being what it is, there is something more sinister and sick going on in the heads of a bunch of boys doing this to an 11-year-old girl.

It's not saying that the two events aren't equally traumatic to the victim, but more of a commentary on the mindset of the perpetrators. These are two separate things, really.

 

[way more]

You know what? Just say it - say nigger. There is nothing wrong with saying nigger as long as you're not trying to give it power. We all know what you're trying to say, and no one's going to chide you for saying it (no reasonable person, anyway). A double standard in a double standard eh? :B

Anyway, I digress; the double standard exists because men are not generally viewed as victims, so over time, they stop being victims - not because they are no longer victimized, but because people don't care enough.

I say the double standard exists because men have traditional been the ones in power. The male doctor and female nurse, the male executive and the female secretary. This is the arch-typical relationship in sexual harassment cases and it's based on power and dominance. In our minds one who abuses power in this way is more guilty, for instance, the cop who rapes.

Edit: In this case the power dynamic is not that varied. I mean, 12-year-old boys don't wield that much greater influence than girls.

 

[Devolution]

I believe that, with the male psyche being what it is, and the female psyche being what it is, there is something more sinister and sick going on in the heads of a bunch of boys doing this to an 11-year-old girl.

It's not saying that the two events aren't equally traumatic to the victim, but more of a commentary on the mindset of the perpetrators. These are two separate things, really.

I think you're underestimating a woman/girl's ability to sexually humiliate a man/boy.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

How old are the girls?

 

[way more]

I think you're underestimating a woman/girl's ability to sexually humiliate a man/boy.

I don't want to come across like I'm saying this flippantly but I would rather a girl laughed at my small dick (not small in real life, just for this story. Really, I'll prove it,) then be sexually assaulted. They are two different scenarios and they should be treated as such.

Edit: But this case is pretty fucked up. They filmed it and then put it on youtube? Please take my arguments on the grand scale because in this case those are some sick bitches.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I believe that, with the male psyche being what it is, and the female psyche being what it is, there is something more sinister and sick going on in the heads of a bunch of boys doing this to an 11-year-old girl.

It's not saying that the two events aren't equally traumatic to the victim, but more of a commentary on the mindset of the perpetrators. These are two separate things, really.

Yes. Intent of the perpetrators is very important in how one should view this "attack".

 

[Zoramon089]

I believe that, with the male psyche being what it is, and the female psyche being what it is, there is something more sinister and sick going on in the heads of a bunch of boys doing this to an 11-year-old girl.

It's not saying that the two events aren't equally traumatic to the victim, but more of a commentary on the mindset of the perpetrators. These are two separate things, really.

. . . Really? Because, to me, nothing says sinister like publicly stripping someone, posting it on Youtube, then bragging about it...

 

[TommyT]

I believe that, with the male psyche being what it is, and the female psyche being what it is, there is something more sinister and sick going on in the heads of a bunch of boys doing this to an 11-year-old girl.

It's not saying that the two events aren't equally traumatic to the victim, but more of a commentary on the mindset of the perpetrators. These are two separate things, really.

lolwat?! So girls aren't capable of doing those same thing to another girl, let alone a guy?

:lol

I don't want to come across like I'm saying this flippantly but I would rather a girl laughed at my small dick (not small in real life, just for this story. Really, I'll prove it,) then be sexually assaulted. They are two different scenarios and they should be treated as such.

What YOU would rather happen doesn't hold much in matters like this or in our hypothetical of this being guys doing it to a girl.

 

[LaserBuddha]

I think you're underestimating a woman/girl's ability to sexually humiliate a man/boy.

When you say this though, you're talking about the severity of the crime and the effect of it on the victim, things which I just stated are equal in either case.

I'm saying that the thought processes that would theoretically lead boys to do this to a girl are much more troubling than the thought processes that would lead girls to do this to a boy. Of course there's an exception to everything, but I see this as most likely being a desire to cruelly humiliate him. Were the genders reversed, I think the psychological motivators would likely be more troubling.

lolwat?! So girls aren't capable of doing those same thing to another girl, let alone a guy?

:lol

LOL LOL LOL LOL Try reading the whole post, and also not assume the ridiculous premise that this is a definitive statement about every male and female of the species. LOL LOL LOL LOL

 

[Devolution]

I don't want to come across like I'm saying this flippantly but I would rather a girl laughed at my small dick (not small in real life, just for this story. Really, I'll prove it,) then be sexually assaulted. They are two different scenarios and they should be treated as such.

In this instance the girls went out of their way to strip the boy naked and post it on youtube. I'll reword it, buddha is underestimating a woman/girl's ability to sexually fuck with another person. People keep thinking we're hardwired so different, and it only serves to reinforce gender inequality.

When you say this though, you're talking about the severity of the crime and the effect of it on the victim, things which I just stated are equal in either case.

I'm saying that the thought processes that would theoretically lead boys to do this to a girl are much more troubling than the thought processes that would lead girls to do this to a boy. Of course there's an exception to everything, but I see this as most likely being a desire to cruelly humiliate him. Were the genders reversed, I think the psychological motivators would likely be more troubling.

Maybe but like I said above, we're not void of being aware how to ridicule, harass and even sexually assault the opposite gender. It happens more often than you think but because of how male victims are treated, how many of them do you think are going to come forward?

 

[Flo_Evans]

When you say this though, you're talking about the severity of the crime and the effect of it on the victim, things which I just stated are equal in either case.

I'm saying that the thought processes that would theoretically lead boys to do this to a girl are much more troubling than the thought processes that would lead girls to do this to a boy. Of course there's an exception to everything, but I see this as most likely being a desire to cruelly humiliate him. Were the genders reversed, I think the psychological motivators would likely be more troubling.

I think you are projecting quite a bit...

How do you know their thought process? How would you know a group of boys thought process?

Personally, assault for "fun" is much more troubling than assault borne out of primal urges. If that is what you are getting at.

 

[Zoramon089]

LOL LOL LOL LOL Try reading the whole post, and also not assume the ridiculous premise that this is a definitive statement about every male and female of the species. LOL LOL LOL LOL

It's just that this mindset alone illustrates the issue people in this thread have with the whole situation.

 

[TommyT]

LOL LOL LOL LOL Try reading the whole post, and also not assume the ridiculous premise that this is a definitive statement about every male and female of the species. LOL LOL LOL LOL

... you already did that for me. Why would I need to do it again? I mean, I could highlight what I already highlighted and all that jazz.

edit: So I ask you again - there can't be something equally sinister going on the the heads of girls that do this to a boy?

 

[LaserBuddha]

I think you are projecting quite a bit...

How do you know their thought process? How would you know a group of boys thought process?

I'm saying that the thought processes that would theoretically lead boys to do this to a girl are much more troubling than the thought processes that would lead girls to do this to a boy. Of course there's an exception to everything, but I see this as most likely being a desire to cruelly humiliate him. Were the genders reversed, I think the psychological motivators would likely be more troubling.

Personally, assault for "fun" is much more troubling than assault borne out of primal urges. If that is what you are getting at.

I disagree with this, but it's nice that in the latter half of your post you now allow for opinion/personal viewpoint. To specifically address what your saying, I don't think you're really hitting on the psychology behind it by flippantly labeling it "for fun". I think a lot of these crimes would be done "for fun" regardless of gender, but the real psychological discussion is about why this is something they'd consider fun.

... you already did that for me. Why would I need to do it again? I mean, I could highlight what I already highlighted and all that jazz.

edit: So I ask you again - there can't be something equally sinister going on the the heads of girls that do this to a boy?

I've addresses this already, before and after your response. In fact, the question in your edit is addressed by the post of mine you're quoting. Don't play dumb. You've chosen to assume I was making a 100% sure statement about every case, I told you that isn't the case, yet you insist on maintaining your false assumption of what I think.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Ok so why do girls find this fun vs. boys?

Humiliating someone is a lesser or more acceptable motivation than...?

 

[way more]

In this instance the girls went out of their way to strip the boy naked and post it on youtube. I'll reword it, buddha is underestimating a woman/girl's ability to sexually fuck with another person. People keep thinking we're hardwired so different, and it only serves to reinforce gender inequality.

It's not that we are differently hardwired but that our genders are so unequal that makes people take the side of females in these cases. A reductio ad absurdum argument is the slave and the master. If the slave bears ill will towards the master you sympathize with him more given the lopsided level of equality.

 

[ROBOKITTYZILLA]

Same old double standards bullshit. Not surprised at all except that the mom isn't pressing charges. Maybe the kid secretly enjoyed it?

 

[Devolution]

It's not that we are differently hardwired but that our genders are so unequal that makes people take the side of females in these cases. A reductio ad absurdum argument is the slave and the master. If the slave bears ill will towards the master you sympathize with him more given the lopsided level of equality.

In Buddha's argument it is because we are hardwired different, at least that's what I'm getting from it, I could be misinterpreting him. And I understand your argument but it's more than just that. There are expectations of the male gender that keep their victimization quiet or ignored.

 

[Flo_Evans]

It's not that we are differently hardwired but that our genders are so unequal that makes people take the side of females in these cases. A reductio ad absurdum argument is the slave and the master. If the slave bears ill will towards the master you sympathize with him more given the lopsided level of equality.

eh, that really doesn't happen till much latter in life... in middle school girls are generally top of the food chain.

 

[LaserBuddha]

In Buddha's argument it is because we are hardwired different, at least that's what I'm getting from it, I could be misinterpreting him. And I understand your argument but it's more than just that. There are expectations of the male gender that keep their victimization quiet or ignored.

I do think we're kind of hardwired differently. As an example, it's a fact that men and women typically look for different things in partners, and that same kind of psychological difference can be expanded to a lot of situations such as this one. Now, let me preface what I'm about to say with the (disappointingly necessary) caveat that I'm talking likelihoods, not absolutes:

I think that if teenage boys got to a point psychologically where they could do this to an 11-year-old girl, we're talking about mental factors that line up very closely with that of a rapist. That could certainly be true of girls as well, but I think generic quasi-sociopathic cruelty is more likely.

The perception that females are weaker, or less acceptable to victimize, is a very real thing to deal with when we're talking about the mindset of the attacker. Perceptions are the reality that matters when trying to get into someone's head. Most people's sense of right and wrong are shaped by traditional societal values, and these might as well be objective truths when it comes to how most people judge right and wrong for themselves. The boys would be disregarding a stigma against victimizing women that (from a male perspective) is very similar to the stigma both genders have for victimizing children.

 

[Poindexter]

mm i want some girls to strip me right now. humiliate me, baby. i've been a dirty bad boy

 

[Devolution]

I do think we're kind of hardwired differently. As an example, it's a fact that men and women typically look for different things in partners, and that same kind of psychological difference can be expanded to a lot of situations such as this one. Now, let me preface what I'm about to say with the (disappointingly necessary) caveat that I'm talking likelihoods, not absolutes:

I think that if teenage boys got to a point psychologically where they could do this to an 11-year-old girl, we're talking about mental factors that line up very closely with that of a rapist. That could certainly be true of girls as well, but I think generic quasi-sociopathic cruelty is more likely. The perception that females are weaker, or less acceptable to victimize, is a very real thing to deal with when we're talking about the mindset of the attacker. Perceptions are the reality that matters when trying to get into someone's head. Most people's sense of right and wrong are shaped by traditional societal values, and these might as well be objective truths when it comes to how most people judge right and wrong for themselves. The boys would be disregarding a stigma against victimizing women that is very similar to the stigma both genders have for victimizing children.

I totally understand. And yes I can agree with all of this. My only real issue though was the assertion that it wasn't sexual assault because girls don't think that way (I'm probably grossly simplifying here but that's what I essentially got from your post).

 

[Amibguous Cad]

People continue to say "what if the genders were switched," and then leave it at that level of elementary reasoning. But c'mon, can't we try to build upon that? It's not enough to simply say, "double standard." You need to ask why there is one.

The analogy I always use the the one of a white man calling a black man the n-word and then the black man retorting with "honkey." They have both insulted each other with slurs yet things are not equal. When it comes to issues of race or gender you can't just interchange actors. The biggest fallacy in these cases is to say, "I thought they wanted gender/racial equality"

You're not wrong to want a more nuanced analysis. Too often context can be ignored in this sort of situation; as you say, each slur is independent of each other, and some will have greater punch than others owing to historical circumstance. This vid by moviebob is a great analysis of the subject: http://kathleencross.com/SkinDeep/tag/movie-bob/

But that simply isn't the case here. The reason for the double standard isn't justified by history or context. It's created by a society that simply doesn't treat the sexual assault of men as a serious matter.

Anyway, I digress; the double standard exists because men are not generally viewed as victims, so over time, they stop being victims - not because they are no longer victimized, but because people don't care enough.

I don't even know where to begin.

Trauma from sexual assault is a real thing, not something people just wallow in because society allows them to. The men are suffering just as much as the women, and to the extent that they lack the resources available to female survivors just makes it worse.

 

[Stet]

I think that if teenage boys got to a point psychologically where they could do this to an 11-year-old girl, we're talking about mental factors that line up very closely with that of a rapist. That could certainly be true of girls as well, but I think generic quasi-sociopathic cruelty is more likely.

What are these mental factors that line up very closely with that of a rapist?

 

[Devolution]

What are these mental factors that line up very closely with that of a rapist?

Disrespect for boundaries and consent.

 

[TommyT]

I've addresses this already, before and after your response. In fact, the question in your edit is addressed by the post of mine you're quoting. Don't play dumb. You've chosen to assume I was making a 100% sure statement about every case, I told you that isn't the case, yet you insist on maintaining your false assumption of what I think.

Just sure I'm following the logic. You make a blanket statement by saying group a has a more sinister mindset than group b. Then say that should this scenario happen it means two different things because of your previous statement about mindsets.

It's not saying that the two events aren't equally traumatic to the victim, but more of a commentary on the mindset of the perpetrators. These are two separate things, really.

Ok, the two events can be equally traumatic... with you here. However you're also saying that based on the difference in mindset there's a difference in the sinistarity (lol not a word, but you get the gist) with the actions.

In your replies, you've told me that this blanket statements don't apply to all scenarios. So then, why make them? Why say (assume) that boys doing this to a girl is more sinister when that isn't always the case?


edit: I'm off from work (which means I'm usually off GAF) so I'll leave it with this:
I pretty much agree with what you're saying about the stigmas and how/why this is being perceived the way it is. I was just getting at the point that your non-prefaced generalized statement is not true, whether you meant it to be blanketed or not (obviously not in the case). And that girls can be just as fucked up as guys.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't even know where to begin.

Trauma from sexual assault is a real thing, not something people just wallow in because society allows them to. The men are suffering just as much as the women, and to the extent that they lack the resources available to female survivors just makes it worse.

You miss the point entirely. The point is that people perceive it as something that is less serious than it actually is.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I just don't see how these girls mentality doesn't line up with that of a rapist... but whatever. I don't pretend to understand or sympathize with rapist in any fashion.

These girls took pleasure in dominating and humiliating a weaker person. Sounds like a rapist mentality to me.

You are enforcing gender stereotypes and perpetuating myths that men can't be victims, because they have held positions of power over women traditionally. Thats a great theory (not really) but what power has this boy ever held over women? Slim to none, and this "prank" will insure that he never will, or that he will himself become a rapist. GREAT PRANK HAHA.

 

[Stet]

Disrespect for boundaries and consent.

If that's what he's getting at, I don't see the difference with the current situation.

 

[Devolution]

If that's what he's getting at, I don't see the difference with the current situation.

His assertion is on shaky grounds that women aren't traditionally rapists, thus that kind of "thinking" doesn't factor into the equation.

I just don't see how these girls mentality doesn't line up with that of a rapist... but whatever. I don't pretend to understand or sympathize with rapist in any fashion.

These girls took pleasure in dominating and humiliating a weaker person. Sounds like a rapist mentality to me.

You are enforcing gender stereotypes and perpetuating myths that men can't be victims, because they have held positions of power over women traditionally. Thats a great theory (not really) but what power has this boy ever held over women? Slim to none, and this "prank" will insure that he never will, or that he will himself become a rapist. GREAT PRANK HAHA.

Yes the real problem is minimizing these attacks on boys/men or the prevailing notion they should have enjoyed it. In fact the posts that have irked me the most are the flippant "where were these girls when I was young." Really dudes?

 

[Amibguous Cad]

You miss the point entirely. The point is that people perceive it as something that is less serious than it actually is.

My apologies; I misread your post. We're on the same page now, and I have no objections to what you wrote. Mea culpa.

If that's what he's getting at, I don't see the difference with the current situation.

There isn't, which I think is devolution;s point.

 

[jeremyxc]

I would have been rich off my little child. lol

 

[Wazzim]

mm i want some girls to strip me right now. humiliate me, baby. i've been a dirty bad boy

lol

 

[way more]

You're not wrong to want a more nuanced analysis. Too often context can be ignored in this sort of situation; as you say, each slur is independent of each other, and some will have greater punch than others owing to historical circumstance. This vid by moviebob is a great analysis of the subject: http://kathleencross.com/SkinDeep/tag/movie-bob/

But that simply isn't the case here. The reason for the double standard isn't justified by history or context. It's created by a society that simply doesn't treat the sexual assault of men as a serious matter.

Thank you for linking that video. I'll have to remember it next time a "double standard" issue comes up because it does a good job of explaining the broad picture while using nerdy references.

As for your second line I first say that the double standard that exists today is based upon a history of male dominance in our society and that you are indeed right that we don't seem to care about sexual assault on males. In the case pertaining to this thread you are right that the second issue is more apparent and alarming. In the future I will have to remember that the issue of victim rights pertains in these "double standard" matters.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I would have been rich off my little child. lol

She may be lol. Her attitude is the most troubling... "I'll just the let girls parents punish them" what kind of message does this send to the kid? Mom does not give a fuck? Or did the girls parents give her a little something to STFU?

FAIL all around. I feel sorry for this kid. I can't imagine the RAGE I would visit upon someone who did this to my kid. I mean RAGE. Why is this lady so calm?