It is a racist design. So you want racist dolls?
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Golliwog dolls
- Thread starter Yrael
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It is a racist design. So you want racist dolls?
Necromanti
Member
Why not?
I bought one of these at a hospital giftshop for my mother when I went to see her. I just thought the doll was kind of cute and something my mum would have liked and she did. It is sitting by her bedside at home.
I wasn't really aware of the whole culture thing behind it. When I bought it I just thought this is a doll of a black girl with big eyes and a huge smile. :\
I wasn't really aware of the whole culture thing behind it. When I bought it I just thought this is a doll of a black girl with big eyes and a huge smile. :\
No, I do not want racist dolls, I'm yet to see one
What's racist about it?
And then put your answer up against any non-black doll and see if it fits
Why not what?
I don't think there is anything wrong with the doll personally
Necromanti
Member
I was just wondering where you got the impression that we can't have black dolls now because of the history and imagery of this one in particular.
It is a caricature of a black person in a minstrel outfit. Do you think the red lips and little suit are just cute design decisions?
I don't even understand what you're trying to ask in the second part of your post.
I was saying that the golliwog doll isn't racist but if it is then I was proposing that we can't have any black dolls
No.
Why is a white doll not racist? Why is a white doll with red hair not racist?
Just because the doll is black doesn't make it racist.
The golliwog doll, at worst, is a caricature, it's not racist
Are political cartoons racist? They quite often empathise various features of a person or race.
The background to that specific type of doll is very much rooted in hatred, bigotry and racism. And it seems that the main fans of such dolls are whites. When have whites been shunned in society due to their race and had caricatures created in countless iterations to illustrate how strange they were? What white doll could ever compare to the Golliwog? Nothing comes close. What harm would come from eliminating them considering their history and replacing them with dolls representing blacks in a proud manner?
Your posts are rooted in deep, deep ignorance and it is sad. Border-line disgusting.
Darren870
Member
To me it seems the definition of racism has changed a lot over the years. To me racism is deliberate hate on a specific group of people for their views or color. Purchasing a black doll, with or without the history behind it, is none of that.
Next thing you know we will have to change the names from fairy penguins to little penguins!! Oh wait...
Next thing you know we will have to change the names from fairy penguins to little penguins!! Oh wait...
Do me a favor. Go to Google and search for images of "black dolls". I guarantee that you will see plenty of examples of black skinned dolls that are not golliwog style dolls. It is possible!
muntersaur
Member
What if I understand the history but choose not to be offended by it and can appreciate it as a cool looking doll? I saw one in Scotland and decided to buy it. I am half-black by the way so it is hard to call me racist.
Agreed
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
your not making sense in your defense of the golliwog doll.....
I think your saying that all black dogs are a type of Golliwog doll and that is not true at all. So either your promoting a false talking point on purpose or your confused yourself on why people consider the golliwog racist. The latter doesn't make sense either since people have explained a few times in this thread why Golliwog dolls are considered racist.
So I have to assume you willfully ignoring the facts of the issue to try to promote your point of view which at best is a horrible thing to believe.....
Racism is not equal across races. If you were completely white, I would question your motivations for owning the doll. If you are black or half-black, then there is a completely different context. This is also true of language. There are certain words I cannot utter that blacks can. If I were to utter them in anything but very particular contexts, I would be considered a racist, while blacks have far greater leeway.
Jawbreaker
Member
Would the "fighting irish" character fall under similar thing?
Just asking as a question, not comparing the two.
As an ethnic group that has suffered prosecution in America and at home for centuries and with negative stereotypes attributed to the Irish then is the "fighting irish" character not insensitive and part of a continuation of a negative stereotype?
There was especially a long history of cartoons and drawings in English media 100's of years bad portraying the Irish as stupid, sub human, violent and drunk.
The word hooligan has racist background, it was used to refer to a violent, drunken Irish man.
http://www.cracked.com/article_16967_8-racist-words-you-use-every-day.html
Excuse the long post, and sorry if it feels I have hijacked the thread.
Interested to hear thoughts?
Absolutely. There's actually a song by the band Stiff Little Fingers in the late 70's about this very topic and racism in general in Britain. It's called "White Noise" if you're interested.
We're obviously going to disagree and I hope you don't start personal attacks but rather my stance.
Just doing a touch of research regarding the doll it appears to come from a book. The character is not degenerated, in fact it's the opposite - the golliwog is portrayed in a positive light. Nothing racist about that
Are these racist?
I've been trying to put it into words for like 10 minutes here (my native tongue isn't english) and haven't been able. But I'm along the same lines as you. Some things aren't inherently racist, as it takes a person to interpret the message as being either racist or not. Images and symbols hold different meanings to different people. I get that some people would find these dolls as being racist, but if I buy one without the intent of racism, it doesn't make me a racist.
I've only come across that in the USA.
I've never heard of this in any other country. Happy to be corrected
We're obviously going to disagree and I hope you don't start personal attacks but rather my stance.
Just doing a touch of research regarding the doll it appears to come from a book. The character is not degenerated, in fact it's the opposite - the golliwog is portrayed in a positive light. Nothing racist about that
Are these racist?
So you do not understand the connotation of minstrel outfits? You don't notice how in modern culture it is no longer acceptable to depict blacks with cherry red lips? Yes, we'll need to agree to disagree. But you are ignorant of the subject and apparently quite willful.
Then you should consider that while you find it "cool looking" thousands of other people consider it extremely offensive. And you will be judged by people on your opinion of the doll, even if you're half-black. I am black. And it strikes me as very odd that you choose to ignore the racist history behind the doll and find it cool looking.
Perhaps I'm not making my point well.
I'll admit that I can't understand how people can see the doll as racist (except for the point below)
In my opinion
The doll is not racist.
If a gollywog doll is racist then why aren't all black dolls racist
The only thing that perhaps I can see people having a problem with is the name. But even then I don't believe that's racist
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
So then lets say you have somebody over to your house who see those dolls as racist. Do you explain to them "don't be offended, I know these dolls are considered offensive to you. However, I bought them with the least racist of intentions intentions based on not caring if they offended you or not"
This is like the redskin team name argument but with black people and racist dolls being used as a proxy. If the group offended by the doll (or the name) thinks its racist and see's it as a racist symbol, shouldn't most people once informed of their feelings try not to offend that group based on common courtesy? Why do you feel that your exempt from that?
Let me try to explain:
This is a doll of a black person
This is a doll of a white person wearing makeup and a costume that is meant to make fun of the physical features of black people (as seen in minstrel shows):
Its not that hard to understand, unless you actually think black people really look like Golliwog dolls (?)
cyberheater
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We're obviously going to disagree and I hope you don't start personal attacks but rather my stance.
Just doing a touch of research regarding the doll it appears to come from a book. The character is not degenerated, in fact it's the opposite - the golliwog is portrayed in a positive light. Nothing racist about that
Are these racist?
I don't find them racists but then racism is often context related and I'm seeing these images in a void.
I don't personally find the golliwog racists either but then I don't connect them to black people. I just see them as a antique doll.
Happy to be taught about the minstrel outfits.
Having red lips on a black doll does not make it racist. I don't understand how anyone would think that.
Are these racist?
The design of the Golliwog is based on minstrel blackface performances in the 1800s and early 1900s, which involved white people painting their faces black with big, thick red lips in an exaggerated portrayal of African Americans:
These performances would involve blatantly racist caricatures and stereotypes (from Wikipedia: "The practice gained popularity during the 19th century and contributed to the proliferation of stereotypes such as the "happy-go-lucky darky on the plantation" or the "dandified coon""). This is why it is a particularly offensive iconography.
Let me try to explain:
This is a doll of a black person
This is a doll of a white person wearing makeup and a costume that is meant to make fun of the physical features of black people (as seen in minstrel shows):
Its not that hard to understand, unless you actually think black people really look like Golliwog dolls (?)
Very well made point here.
muntersaur
Member
I never said that just because I do not find it offensive that you can't take offence from it. On the other hand, I hate the attitude that just because it offends you, that everybody else should see it the same way.
Do I find the racist history behind the doll bad? Yes. But for me, I can enjoy it for how it looks despite the racist connotations. You can choose to be offended or not offended.
So caricatures are out? Got it.
Gotta maintain the rage against all political cartoons and the guy down the markets doing drawings
cyberheater
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< Removed. Was not adding to the argument >
I'm not saying no one has the right the be offended by these dolls. Everyone can be offended by what they perceive as being offensive. I just think that imagery or symbols need to be interpreted before they hold any meaning and these interpretations aren't set in stone. And the reason for buying the doll should also matter. If I buy it to make fun of someone, of course the action should be condoned, but to be fair, it isn't the dolls fault that I am using it as a weapon to make fun of someone.
Yes you're right, you're free to enjoy it for it's looks and it doesn't offend you.
Do you have the doll on display to others in your home?
Different people get offended by different things all the time.
Say a staunch conservative Christian walked into the home of someone and they had a picture depicting a homosexual act on their wall.
Is the Christian right to be offended?
Is the homeowner right to own such a picture?
You never answered the question you're replying to. And I've not seen stores in the UK openly selling pictures/paintings of people performing homosexual acts. You can still see many seaside towns in England still selling these dolls.
The Golliwog is from the early days of racism and its depiction was demeaning to blacks. Its ancient racist iconography. You have an issue with ridding the world of the oldest and purest racist imagery? And whites do really need to be very careful how they draw caricatures, yes.
I am puzzled at your defense of this.
I did in a round about way.
People can find offense in anything.
On the topic of the golliwog doll, which group of people is crying out to get rid of it?
I see and hear individuals saying that it's racist but that's it
And even if a group or people think that something is racist it doesn't mean that it is.
As an example I hate foul language, I think it's a scourge and should be eradicated. But who am I to say what is foul language and what isn't?
People have different standards and opinions of what is acceptable. Now I'm sure everyone considers c**t to be foul language, much like saying that one race is superior to others is racist.
But is c**p foul language?
To some it is, to some it isn't, much like a golliwog doll
I see. So your problem seems to be that you do not understand the important difference between
a marginalized group telling a privileged group to stop discriminating against them
and a privileged group telling a marginalized group to stop discriminating against them.
I think you need to research the concept of privilege. It might help enlighten you on the plight of those less fortunate than yourself.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
so you admit these dolls are in the same class of offensive material as pornography? Once again I would question the taste and the symbolic message being sent by anyone who had any porn on displayed on their wall for visitors to see. That would not be a normal act for anyone (regardless of the genders of the people having sex).
To come up with another example would it be considered normal anywhere under any circumstances for a person to have a swastika on their wall when company came over?
We're are obviously at different places.
I don't believe the golliwog doll is racist anymore than the Wayne brothers dressing up as 'White Chicks' is racist
There is no race that is better than any other race, there never has been and there never will be.
Owning a golliwog doll does not make one think one race is better than another.
Thinking a golliwog doll is not racist does not mean one thinks one race is better than another
The Golliwog was designed from its inception in an incredibly insensitive way during an incredibly racist period of time. Owning one in this day and age by someone of a privileged group is making a statement. A statement basically saying "I like this depiction of your race. It amuses me. Oh, we designed it in an unflattering way and insensitive to you and your history? Well its cute and it'll be on my shelf". Depending on the person, the reason for making that statement will vary from pure ignorance to blatant racism. The doll should not be for sale in today's day and age. Period.
In my example who is marginalised and privileged?
In the golliwog discussion who it marginalise and privileged?
There is homoerotic art that isn't porn
It's not porn and I didn't say that the person had porn on their wall and I do not equate the dolls to pornography. You made that leap, not me
But the Golliwog doll IS more racist than your example, 'White Chicks'.
So the Wayans dress up as white people and act like a stereotype of a white person. A white person might watch this and find it offensive and might make them feel bad for a bit. But, then the white person remembers, "Hey, wait a minute, I'M WHITE!" and they go about their day without a care in the world.
You see, the white person has what we call PRIVILEGE. Though the comments by the black comedians may hurt their feelings, it would have no real impact on them long term because they live in a society where white people suffer few if any consequences of being white. Also, they suffer few consequences in their overall lives if a few black people make fun of the way the act and look.
Now, reverse the situation. Some white comedians dress up as black people and act like a stereotype of a black person. A black person might watch this and find it offensive and might make them feel bad, and a whole lot more.
You see, the black person experiences a thing called DISCRIMINATION. The comments made by white comedians reminds them that they live in a society where the ruling majority does not take them seriously, makes fun of the way they look and calls their natural features ugly, and actively takes away basic rights and privileges from them that the majority enjoys. When the white comedians make fun of black people, it also reinforces in other white people that black people are not to be taken seriously, that they are not equal to white people. This then translates to racism which has many negative effects on the lives of black people, both physical and psychological.
I hope this helps you understand.
Doing a bit of further research on the subject matter... the golliwog is an intriguing character indeed.
Based off racist minstrel shows (white performers wearing black makeup and acting in ignorant ways), it itself was created in a manner so as to reclaim the imagery and make it a positive thing. The golliwog is introduced, initially described as horrific, then described as kindly, and dignified (initially portrayed wearing a suit of the era) with positive gallant traits associated with it. The first positive black character of its era. In the context of the era from which it emerged - it is exactly what you want - a doll that represents blacks in a proud manner.
The popularity of the golliwog itself is responsible for some of the resurgence and remnants of the blackface imagery during the 20th century (and indeed the 21st century).
Unfortunately, the intentions of the golliwog was blighted by the associations that the general populace drew against it after its creation... turning gollywog (and eventually wog - which at least in Australia has been reclaimed by italians and greeks as self referential slang) into a casual racial slur, and because it was never trademarked; was reused by authors like Enid Blyton frequently as villains (and some times as heroes).
In the context of our current time, we have people recalling the bad parts of the historic imagery of the golliwog, without recalling the good parts or the context of which the gollywog gave rise to... and then unironically accusing people of ignoring the historical cultural context of the design.
I think it's quite possible that many that still hold on to these things don't view them with the negative historical cultural context that many are attempting to hoist as inevitable and obvious; for the most part it has a positive historical personal context that may have also included a period in which the character itself also had a positive historical cultural context (or at least a bubble of it).
Personally, setting aside how much a non-factor this bit of 'racism' is... I charge that it's the flipside of racism; cultural imperialism, to expect people to automatically recognize the iconography as racist. The icon has differing cultural contexts across the world in different places and time periods, and not all of it has been negative. To insist that your current cultural context is the only valid one is to ignore the complexity and reality of how other cultures operate.
It also highlights to me that the root cause of racism... tribalism; the willingness to segregate ourselves into groups of them vs us based on perceived differences - is as strong as ever; that racism itself is only ever a symptom of a greater human issue that won't go away even after we have resolved all the iconographic and symbolic issues that can exist.
One of these things is not like the other~
Paddington bear is a dirty Peruvian immigrant!
I am still struggling to see how inherently racist a gollywog doll is. I do however see the throwback to blackface in there.
I think this is one of those thing that is perceived differently when you apply a cultural lense. Like for example:
Barbie is, to me, a extremely blonde bimbo. She's pretty much a stereotypical white woman who cares about nothing but vanity and material gain. I think her 'racism' resonates with more children than golliwog ever could hope for.
Was the doll designed for that?
And if it does, does the doll mean that to the person that has it?
Bucket Mouse
Member
Golliwog dolls are clearly racist you weirdos.
No. To put it bluntly I believe you're wrong.
The Wayans are making fun of white people.
The same as the golliwog doll makes fun of black people.
One cannot be racist without the other
Right?
In different countries, different things are acceptable
Americans need to understand the world and the standards it has does not begin and end with them.
Thank you. I thought I was going insane having to explain why a doll that looked like it was pulled straight out of a minstrel show is racist. Or having to explain why its bad for white people to make racist caricatures of black people.
It truly depresses me that there are people still out there that don't understand such obvious things.
And what history have white people had in relation to blacks? Who was oppressing whites for their race? Inequality was meted out unequally. Nothing blacks can do could ever be as racist as what Whites have done or can do currently. I mean, there isn't even a commonly agreed upon racist caricature of what a white person is. No equivalent to the minstrel dress and red lip depiction. Your failure to acknowledge this is baffling.
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