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Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

So...before I just read the cliffnotes version of this dude's memo, but now I read the whole thing. This dude seems to go out of his way to cover his ass, consistently saying that he's not against diversity, that White people certainly have not had a harder time dealing with life than minorities, and such. But his "solutions" are basically to...eliminate all the current programs Google has for diversifying its workforce. There seems to be some bizarre, twisted logic where he seems to be arguing that removing these programs that promote diversity will some end up increasing diversity, which was his whole fucking problem in the first place.

And this is the main thing I don't get about this stupid conversation we're having. Google's decision to hire more women and minorities wasn't the result of government policies. This was Google management making a decision based on what they felt was the direction they wanted to take the company. Whether they did it because they legitimately think it's a noble thing to do, or if they did it just to get good PR, the fundamental result is the same. What this nimrod seems to be arguing is that Google is somehow being compelled to do this by some outside force. We've already established that this outside force is not the government, which means that the only thing this force must be is...holy shit, the FREE MARKET!

Well their position is that groups organizing boycotts and putting pressure on companies to change policy isn't part of the free market; like groups tried to boycott Chick Fil A over their gay marriage stance but in the end, the average customer just liked their sandwiches too much. They would say that second one is the free market, and that boycotts and protests and hashtag campaigns are activists trying to interfere.

To believe that in his position, you have to ignore the absolute epidemic of anti-woman harassment that happens in the tech industry (how many big sexual harassment cases have hit this year? This month?) and what is unquestionably a hostile environment.

Even if the science was on his side and it's true that most women avoid the field purely out of choice, that's still the dumbest possible battle to be fighting. That tech is trying TOO hard to be welcoming of women? That's like marching in favor of police being quicker to shoot suspects. You have to be totally oblivious to what's going on in the world.

Let's face it - you can tell a lot about someone by the battles they choose to fight.
 

digdug2k

Member
So...before I just read the cliffnotes version of this dude's memo, but now I read the whole thing. This dude seems to go out of his way to cover his ass, consistently saying that he's not against diversity, that White people certainly have not had a harder time dealing with life than minorities, and such. But his "solutions" are basically to...eliminate all the current programs Google has for diversifying its workforce. There seems to be some bizarre, twisted logic where he seems to be arguing that removing these programs that promote diversity will some end up increasing diversity, which was his whole fucking problem in the first place.

And this is the main thing I don't get about this stupid conversation we're having. Google's decision to hire more women and minorities wasn't the result of government policies. This was Google management making a decision based on what they felt was the direction they wanted to take the company. Whether they did it because they legitimately think it's a noble thing to do, or if they did it just to get good PR, the fundamental result is the same. What this nimrod seems to be arguing is that Google is somehow being compelled to do this by some outside force. We've already established that this outside force is not the government, which means that the only thing this force must be is...holy shit, the FREE MARKET!

Yet, if you read this clown's memo/manifesto, he makes it sound like that's not the case. That they're still being compelled by non-free market forces, and by somehow being more free market (which again, how the fuck is this supposed to work?) everything will be hunky dory because supposedly more minorities will be hired because they're actually qualified, as opposed to the ones that are there right now.
Yeah. These guys like to try and play both sides of the coin in these arguments. "I love diversity. I think we should work for more diversity. Now lets just all accept that there's going to be a gender gap and that's just nature and we should just accept it and give up. Also, maybe you could hire more people like me instead? I'm super diverse.". Its also full of stuff like "Even science says there's differences between the sexes. Like, men have a penis, and girls have... something else. So... that explains the gender gap in CS. Explained. Science." Like, what? How did you even make that leap? You see that in some of the fucking replies from actual real scientists too. "Women are different than men, therefore women aren't good at computers. Or maybe they just don't like computers. Or maybe its too stressful for them?... Fuck if I know, but I just explained it. Sexism is dead." Crazy. Has to be embarrassing for their peers.
 
It's always amusing to me watching people get themselves twisted over if the neuroscience and psychology literature agrees or disagrees with the assessment that biological differences exist between the sexes, as if that somehow alone confirms a particular worldview.

Even in the studies that detect differences, the difference between groups is generally far below the differences within groups. I can't believe so much energy is being spent on the ecological fallacy.

I think what happens is it's really easy to fall into a trap where you feel like the only way to rebut this guy is to say that there are NO inherent differences between sexes, which isn't the position you have to take. It's fine to admit that the average man and the average woman are different from birth (and that there is a great deal of overlap so that any two individuals may fall anywhere along the spectrum) and it's even fine to admit that if there were zero barriers, that tech may not be 50/50 male/female.

You don't need to reject all differences in order to do what Google is doing; you just have to acknowledge that you're losing out on talented people because tech has shitty culture that makes women feel like they don't belong.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Well their position is that groups organizing boycotts and putting pressure on companies to change policy isn't part of the free market; like groups tried to boycott Chick Fil A over their gay marriage stance but in the end, the average customer just liked their sandwiches too much. They would say that second one is the free market, and that boycotts and protests and hashtag campaigns are activists trying to interfere.

Wait, so now boycotts aren't part of the free market either??
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
"Free market" means being blind, apathetic consumers, I think, for these people.
 

Calabi

Member
I feel like this is the only forum that seems to be disagreeing "mostly" with the guys memo. I've been looking around and all the youtube videos and other forums seem to be agreeing with his unfounded damaging assumptions.

Its depressing but not unexpected. If you word things in a certain way and have caveats at the beginning saying, your not doing exactly what your doing, and have lots of numbers and seeming facts, its easy to manipulate people. Especially these days it seems.
 

Lime

Member
Oliver Keyes‏ @kopshtik Aug 8
As a professional scientist of online, I am pleased to present a preview from my new paper "Oh You Just Care About Free Speech At Work Huh"



(maybe already posted, but w/e)
 

Jag

Member
Damore has a decent chance at winning his case against Google

Damore filed under the NLRB section that protects workers rights, generally for unions but it can also be used for other protected behavior.

Rather, the [NLR Act] provision governs what workers are allowed to talk about in the workplace in regards to pay, conditions, promotions, and other workplace practices. The law was originally crafted to protect the right of union organisers to discuss pay rates with their colleagues, and more latterly to protect anyone asking questions at work about who gets paid what, and why.

On that basis, he has a fighting chance, according to Valerie L. Sharpe, a labor lawyer based in the San Francisco area. She told Business Insider that Damore's chances of success are "a little bit above decent." HR lawyers at other tech companies in the Bay Area are following the case closely for that reason, she says.

As a General Counsel who decides whether a termination is lawful, I'm watching this case pretty closely. But it still pisses me off that this guy could win.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
Hah, fair enough!

Honstlely in part i haven't the energy to further along the dialogue, i'm sorry if i've failed you in that regard.

I do think people need to understand the full context of where he is coming from. The ideas Peterson struggles with are long-winded, granted, but there is a rather blunt no bullshit approach to how he describes things, and I really do think a lot of people need to give his lectures a chance.

It's ALL bullshit, not no bullshit. The guy is a bigoted asshole to make statements like that and mean them.
 

Late Flag

Member
I feel like this is the only forum that seems to be disagreeing "mostly" with the guys memo. I've been looking around and all the youtube videos and other forums seem to be agreeing with his unfounded damaging assumptions.

When scientists who are active in the field under discussion mostly agree with him (or at least think the guy is making a reasonable argument), you might want to rethink which group is operating under unfounded assumptions.
 

Infinite

Member
When scientists who are active in the field under discussion mostly agree with him (or at least think the guy is making a reasonable argument), you might want to rethink which group is operating under unfounded assumptions.
What are you talking about? Who agree with him
 

rjinaz

Member
When scientists who are active in the field under discussion mostly agree with him (or at least think the guy is making a reasonable argument), you might want to rethink which group is operating under unfounded assumptions.

Wait which parts are scientists/experts agreeing with?
 

Calabi

Member
When scientists who are active in the field under discussion mostly agree with him (or at least think the guy is making a reasonable argument), you might want to rethink which group is operating under unfounded assumptions.

Your wrong and there's plenty more where this came from.

https://www.recode.net/2017/8/11/16...earch-science-women-biology-tech-james-damore

But dont worry I wont post anymore. The age of reason is lost. The dissemination of information is worthless, we can all take we want and choose to believe what we want.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
There was bad news from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development on Tuesday, which found that 15-year-old girls around the world, outperform boys in science – except for in the United States, Britain and Canada.

Once again the cause for poor performances is said to be environmental. This is nothing new. The last round of math test results from the Program for International Student Assessment (Pisa) had similar results. In a number of countries 15-year-old girls matched or outnumbered their male counterparts at the top. Genetically, the tests showed, girls are extremely capable mathematicians. Researchers then found that "countries with the poorest degrees of gender equality also have the widest gulfs between male and female mathematical performance".

The US Department of Education has found that girls "who have a strong self-concept regarding their abilities in math or science are more likely to choose and perform well in elective math and science courses and to select math and science-related college majors and careers".

The department emphasizes that: "improving girls' beliefs about their abilities could alter their choices and performance ... particularly as they move out of elementary school and into middle and high school."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-news-blog/2013/feb/05/girls-science-gender-gap-fix
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
Part 2 of 2.



Why are we talking about mating habits here, why does it always go back to mating habits? Is this going to get tied to computer science in any meaningful way?



Sexism exists, yes.



The problem isn't that women are failing interviews, it's that mysteriously in the 1980s, corresponding with the push for computers as "boy toys" and a domain for men, the proportion of women obtaining computer science degrees dropped. The proportion of female engineers at Google is actually slightly greater than the proportion of women obtaining computer science degrees per year, suggesting that women perform up to standards.

The issue is that the toxic climate is pushing women out of the field. The ones who weather the toxicity and claims they are biologically more neurotic and predisposed to be unable to handle long work weeks are up to the standards. It's just that many others also up to the standards tire of putting up with such an unhealthy environment, or don't want to venture into it in the first place.



You know, if you actually talked about some of these ideas supposedly not talked about enough it would be infinitely more interesting than reading about how we're not talking about these ideas enough. It's been forty goddamn minutes, imagine if I actually sat through this!

It is true that unconscious bias seminars don't work very well, in a large part due to the fact that you have to be open minded about them and consciously attempt to combat the bias themselves - which people who aren't fond of minorities probably won't be motivated to do.

It would be more effective to more holistically affect the unintended consequences of schematic learning and how people can become mired in stereotypes they did not consciously assimilate. Shift the framing to address the concerns made so it doesn't have this negative connotation as punishment for racists.

Here's an article that mentions prospective solutions! it contains content!



"Yes this is the same thing". Advocating for more women to pursue careers in a subject is the same as chasing men out of the field, apparently.

No one is saying to chase anyone out of nursing and medicine - the field where people work long hours under often psychologically toiling circumstances. And as a matter fact, the deficit of male teachers is a huge problem in primary school education and something that should be fixed. We can even identify the social conditioning that has led to men not wanting to be primary school teachers, because they don't want to be labelled as pedophiles and a strong stereotype has been developed against male primary school teachers.

Fun fact: white people become more supportive of affirmative action when reminded that Asians on average outscore them on standardized tests.



This part is a bit difficult to parse, but it also doesn't appear to be relevant to the topic either.



Current state of the art = mostly focus on popular theory created during the 1970s. Notably, a time before the reversal in the trend of an increasing number of women earning computer science degrees.



We're nearing the end of the video.



The end.

Why was I told to watch this, again? There wasn't anything in here that I didn't already address previously in the thread. Was this an attempt to win the debate by default because no one would respond to a fifty minute video just rehashing the manifesto? (That's kind of uncharitable of me to say, sometimes I quote long posts because I feel they express the direction of what I'm trying to say well. But I've also seen the Gish Gallop happen plenty too.)

They never even said what the gender differences that would negatively impact women are outside of neuroticism and an inability to handle stress! The former of which is just rehashing the concept of hysteria and the latter is contradicted within the same talk by referring to more stressful fields that are female dominated!

You'd think in fifty minutes, fifty long minutes, they could actually present some information in the studies instead of talking circles around it.

Wow.

WOW.

That was just a masterful deconstruction. Seriously, well done.
 

Zaru

Member
Even in the studies that detect differences, the difference between groups is generally far below the differences within groups. I can't believe so much energy is being spent on the ecological fallacy.
Let's look at two groups that are distributed like this:

Code:
Group A:
XXX    X       XXX                 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX         X            XXX
Group B:
XXX          X       XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                 XX                  XXX

The difference between groups is far below the difference within groups.

Would you bet any money on both groups having the same unbiased average on whatever they're being distributed on?

You can't show a fallacy with a fallacy.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Wait which parts are scientists/experts agreeing with?

Good overview at Heterodox Academy.

Our verdict on Damore’s memo: Damore is correct that there are “population level differences in distributions” of traits that are likely to be relevant for understanding gender gaps at Google. Even if we set aside all questions about the origins of these differences, the fact remains that there are gender differences in a variety of traits, and especially in interest/enjoyment (rather than ability) in the adult population from which Google and all other tech firms recruit.

This distinction between ability and interest is extremely important because it may lay to rest one of the main fears raised by Damore’s critics: that the memo itself will cause Google employees to assume that women are less qualified, or less “suited” for tech jobs, and will therefore lead to more bias against women in tech jobs. But the empirical evidence we have reviewed should have the opposite effect. Population differences in interest may be part of the explanation for why there are fewer women in the applicant pool, but the women who choose to enter the pool are just as capable as the larger number of men in the pool. This conclusion does not deny that various forms of bias, harassment, and discouragement exist and contribute to outcome disparities, nor does it imply that the differences in interest are biologically fixed and cannot be changed in future generations.
 
Alright since Erevador and Rabid Dwarf 76 are recommending this interview, I will respond directly to them.

Second, Peterson gives vague unsorced comments about studies. Which Scandinavian studies is he speaking about? He talks about women not wanting to work 60 to 80 hour work weeks in the legal field (and just in general apparently) but doesn't point where either. (And ignores the fact that women do work those hours in those and other areas such as Nursing)

Where is the "great technical detail" so far?

He updated the the video with likes to all of the sources and studies he mentioned in the video. I haven't had a chance to go through them yet but here is a quick copy and paste from the video description:

Here are a series of references buttressing each and every claim James made in his memo, which has been erroneously deemed pseudo-scientific (full papers linked where possible):


Sex differences in personality:
Lynn (1996): http://bit.ly/2vThoy8
Lippa (2008): http://bit.ly/2vmtSMs
Weisberg (2011): http://bit.ly/2gJVmEp
Del Giudice (2012): http://bit.ly/2vEKTUx


Larger/large and stable sex differences in more gender-neutral countries: (Note: these findings runs precisely and exactly contrary to social constructionist theory: thus, it's been tested, and it's wrong).

Katz-Gerrog (2000): http://bit.ly/2uoY9c4
Costa (2001): http://bit.ly/2utaTT3
Schmitt (2008): http://bit.ly/2p6nHYY
Schmitt (2016): http://bit.ly/2wMN45j

(Women's) interest in people vs (men's) interest in things:
Lippa (1998): http://bit.ly/2vr0PHF
Rong Su (2009): http://bit.ly/2wtlbzU
Lippa (2010): http://bit.ly/2wyfW23

Big Five trait agreeableness and (lower) income (including for men):
Spurk (2010): http://bit.ly/2vu1x6E
Judge (2012): http://bit.ly/2uxhwQh

The general importance of exposure to sex-linked steroids on fetal and then lifetime development:
Hines (2015) http://bit.ly/2uufOiv

Exposure to prenatal testosterone and interest in things or people (even when the exposure is among females):
Berenbaum (1992): http://bit.ly/2uKxpSQ
Beltz (2011): http://bit.ly/2hPXC1c
Baron-Cohen (2014): http://bit.ly/2vn4KXq
Hines (2016): http://bit.ly/2hPYKSu

Primarily biological basis of personality sex differences:
Lippa (2008): http://bit.ly/2vmtSMs
Ngun (2010): http://bit.ly/2vJ6QSh

Status and sex: males and females
Perusse (1993): http://bit.ly/2uoIOw8
Perusse (1994): http://bit.ly/2vNzcL6
Buss (2008): http://bit.ly/2uumv4g
de Bruyn (2012): http://bit.ly/2uoWkMh

To quote de Bruyn et al: high status predicts more mating opportunities and, thus, increased reproductive success. ”This is true for human adults in many cultures, both ‘modern' as well as ‘primitive' (Betzig, 1986). In fact, this theory seems to be confirmed for non-human primates (Cheney, 1983; Cowlishaw and Dunbar, 1991; Dewsbury, 1982; Gray, 1985; Maslow, 1936) and other animals from widely differing ecologies (Ellis, 1995) such as squirrels (Farentinos, 1972), cockerels (Kratzer and Craig, 1980), and cockroaches (Breed, Smith, and Gall, 1980)." Status also increases female reproductive success, via a different pathway: ”For females, it is generally argued that dominance is not necessarily a path to more copulations, as it is for males. It appears that important benefits bestowed upon dominant women are access to resources and less harassment from rivals (Campbell, 2002). Thus, dominant females tend to have higher offspring survival rates, at least among simians (Pusey, Williams, and Goodall, 1997); thus, dominance among females also appears to be linked to reproductive success."

Personality and political belief:
Gerber (2010): http://bit.ly/2hOpnHa
Hirsh (2010): http://bit.ly/2fsxIzB
Gerber (2011): http://bit.ly/2hJ1Kjb
Xu (2013): http://bit.ly/2ftDhOq
Burton (2015): http://bit.ly/2uoPS87
Bakker (2016): http://bit.ly/2vMlQ1N

Occupations by gender:
http://bit.ly/2vTdgPp

Problems with the measurement and concept of unconscious bias:
Fielder (2006): http://bit.ly/2vGzhQP
Blanton (2009): http://bit.ly/2vQuwEP (this one is particularly damning)

And, just for kicks, two links discussing the massive over-representation of the left in, most particularly, the humanities:
Klein (2008): http://bit.ly/2fwdLrS
Langbert (2016): http://bit.ly/2cV53Q8
 

Gattsu25

Banned
He updated the the video with likes to all of the sources and studies he mentioned in the video. I haven't had a chance to go through them yet but here is a quick copy and paste from the video description:

Here are a series of references buttressing each and every claim James made in his memo
7Z75rahs.png


There's no need to spam every reference in this thread, especially when the arguments in the actual 'debate' weren't compelling.
 
I think what happens is it's really easy to fall into a trap where you feel like the only way to rebut this guy is to say that there are NO inherent differences between sexes, which isn't the position you have to take. It's fine to admit that the average man and the average woman are different from birth (and that there is a great deal of overlap so that any two individuals may fall anywhere along the spectrum) and it's even fine to admit that if there were zero barriers, that tech may not be 50/50 male/female.

You don't need to reject all differences in order to do what Google is doing; you just have to acknowledge that you're losing out on talented people because tech has shitty culture that makes women feel like they don't belong.

I agree.

Gay rights serves as a good example. The leadership for gay marriage had a difficult decision to make. For example, they could make a scientific argument - that there are no differences between children raised by gay families. Instead, they opted to bypass this and instead make the more straightforward ethical argument that discrimination is wrong. In the end, the science was on their side... but it could have not been. There could have been studies that demonstrated children raised in gay households had various issues arising from that circumstance. If this had been the case, it would have been disastrous for their argument if they made it hinge on that.

The extreme right has put their nickle down on gender in the workplace - differences between groups means discrimination is okay. That doesn't mean the left has to puts its nickle down on there not being difference, because in the end science could demonstrate that to not be the case. It's much safer to have a value-based assessment that discrimination is wrong, period.
 
7Z75rahs.png


There's no need to spam every reference in this thread, especially when the arguments in the actual 'debate' weren't compelling.

The person I was responding to mentioned that Peterson gave vague comments about studies without providing sources and asked what studies he was speaking about. So I posted those sources for those that wanted to review them. Why does this upset you?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
The memo guy is on Twitter now.
https://twitter.com/Fired4Truth

Right at it retweeting a sexist and racist like Mike Cernovich.

If some of you needed any more proof that this guy was just full of it...

Hahahaha holy shit. Linking to Breitbart and Cernovich.

This account isn't verified though. Are we 100% sure it's really him? I wouldn't be remotely surprised if it were him, but don't want to get caught by possible fake shit either.

Edit: welp, it's most certainly real: http://uk.businessinsider.com/fired-google-engineer-james-damore-photoshoot-peter-duke-2017-8

lol @ his "Goolag" pic. The Verge put it better than I could:

a play on “Google” that means to suggest the Silicon Valley search company is something like the infamous Soviet camps where prisoners were worked and starved to death as part of one of the 20th century’s worst genocides.

Google, which provides free meals, massages, and fitness classes at its Mountain View, California headquarters, pays engineers like Damore a typical salary of $162,000, according to Glassdoor, not including extra compensation like healthcare benefits, retirement savings, and equity.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
When scientists who are active in the field under discussion mostly agree with him (or at least think the guy is making a reasonable argument), you might want to rethink which group is operating under unfounded assumptions.

Oh, you mean like the scientist linked to above who notes that this douchebag misapplied their scientific findings?

Fucking lol. Try harder, you're not fooling anyone.
 

Laiza

Member
He updated the the video with likes to all of the sources and studies he mentioned in the video. I haven't had a chance to go through them yet but here is a quick copy and paste from the video description:

Here are a series of references buttressing each and every claim James made in his memo, which has been erroneously deemed pseudo-scientific (full papers linked where possible):

[snipped for length]
I don't see the point of this post.

We've already established, per Sianos's post, that he's being wholly disingenuous in his use of the science to back up his assertion that... we should stop all attempts at helping uplift underrepresented and marginalized groups. The problem is, while the science does indeed back up that there are some in-born differences between genders that are not entirely mitigated by greater societal freedom, we are still nowhere near a point where we can claim absolute freedom from societal biases.

One only needs to read the many, many stories of women in tech actively being discouraged from participating in the field to understand that we have not yet reached a point where the natural inclination of women to enter the field has reached parity with the real number of women actively participating in the field. Until those pressures are removed there is no point in pointing out the differences between genders because real freedom is only accomplished when negative factors preventing the participation of marginalized groups have been entirely and wholly eliminated.

He's ultimately using the science to back up a male-and-white-supremacist notion that the way things are split up now is the way things should be, when a truly holistic view of our society would indicate that we actually still have plenty of room for improvement. It's short-sighted and, in all likelihood, will most likely cause more harm than good - unless, of course, you consider entitled-feeling white men harassing minorities out of the industry as "good". I would hope not.
 
You can start with this person and go from there. Honestly though, people have been linking to this stuff throughout the thread, and they're out there on social media as well.

Honestly there's just as many scientists who agree with him as who disagree with him. So, I don't know. It's hard to take any of them seriously, because all of them are just flat out saying the other people are obviously wrong "because science". It's interesting that even the scientists can't seem to address this without letting their personal bias get involved.


Goddamit, I love clickhole.
 

Lesath

Member
I don't see the point of this post.

We've already established, per Sianos's post, that he's being wholly disingenuous in his use of the science to back up his assertion that... we should stop all attempts at helping uplift underrepresented and marginalized groups. The problem is, while the science does indeed back up that there are some in-born differences between genders that are not entirely mitigated by greater societal freedom, we are still nowhere near a point where we can claim absolute freedom from societal biases.

One only needs to read the many, many stories of women in tech actively being discouraged from participating in the field to understand that we have not yet reached a point where the natural inclination of women to enter the field has reached parity with the real number of women actively participating in the field. Until those pressures are removed there is no point in pointing out the differences between genders because real freedom is only accomplished when negative factors preventing the participation of marginalized groups have been entirely and wholly eliminated.

He's ultimately using the science to back up a male-and-white-supremacist notion that the way things are split up now is the way things should be, when a truly holistic view of our society would indicate that we actually still have plenty of room for improvement. It's short-sighted and, in all likelihood, will most likely cause more harm than good - unless, of course, you consider entitled-feeling white men harassing minorities out of the industry as "good". I would hope not.

I want to bold this part for emphasis because people keep trying to tie the manifesto author's anti-diversity agenda to the scientific claims that he made, essentially setting up this stupid straw man that if you're against his "bu-bu-but reverse racism/sexism" proposals you're against the weight of scientific fact. Stop.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Ugh. I finally finished reading the entire piece. I'd probably agree with him in regards to the sentiment that you don't solve discrimination with more discrimination... but it's clear where this guy's bread is buttered on when he starts talking about how men have it rough with most deaths in the workplace (which is totally relevant to Google engineering jobs) and suggests dismantling not just the programs he thinks are discriminatory but even basic training on unconscious bias and that they need to make charts of people's political affiliations to "reduce bias". Hell, in this "what we can do about this" section he basically offers some generic "let's be more collaborative?" advice alongside "we need to do more about men's gender roles."

The Facebook threads are still raging on my timeline. I feel like I go from center-right/classic liberal on NeoGAF to full-throated socialist man-hating feminist on Facebook, because the stupid over there is damn strong.

I want to bold this part for emphasis because people keep trying to tie the manifesto author's anti-diversity agenda to the scientific claims that he made, essentially setting up this stupid straw man that if you're against his "bu-bu-but reverse racism/sexism" proposals you're against the weight of scientific fact. Stop.

Yeah I'm seeing a lot of "but then what is the 'right' gender balance?" deflections to argue against doing anything, when it's pretty obvious it ain't what we got currently. Even when pressed most of these people equivocate that men and women are far closer than different, but will still use that to suggest that anything close to a 50-50 split is still ludicrous. It'd be a lot more ludicrous if representation on the men's side weren't completely out of wack with the population too, but thus far I haven't see anyone admit to IQ differences among the races when arguing it. People know that won't fly, at least.
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
Honestly there's just as many scientists who agree with him as who disagree with him. So, I don't know. It's hard to take any of them seriously, because all of them are just flat out saying the other people are obviously wrong "because science". It's interesting that even the scientists can't seem to address this without letting their personal bias get involved.

I would love to get your opinion on climate change next
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
Ugh. I finally finished reading the entire piece. I'd probably agree with him in regards to the sentiment that you don't solve discrimination with more discrimination... but it's clear where this guy's bread is buttered on when he starts talking about how men have it rough with most deaths in the workplace (which is totally relevant to Google engineering jobs) and suggests dismantling not just the programs he thinks are discriminatory but even basic training on unconscious bias and that they need to make charts of people's political affiliations to "reduce bias". Hell, in this "what we can do about this" section he basically offers some generic "let's be more collaborative?" advice alongside "we need to do more about men's gender roles."

The Facebook threads are still raging on my timeline. I feel like I go from center-right/classic liberal on NeoGAF to full-throated socialist man-hating feminist on Facebook, because the stupid over there is damn strong.



Yeah I'm seeing a lot of "but then what is the 'right' gender balance?" deflections to argue against doing anything, when it's pretty obvious it ain't what we got currently. Even when pressed most of these people equivocate that men and women are far closer than different, but will still use that to suggest that anything close to a 50-50 split is still ludicrous. It'd be a lot more ludicrous if representation on the men's side weren't completely out of wack with the population too, but thus far I haven't see anyone admit to IQ differences among the races when arguing it. People know that won't fly, at least.

Only those benefiting from privilege see the leveling of the playing field for those systemically shut out from playing as discriminaton. Don't fall into the trap of legitimizing that intellectually bankrupt idea.
 
I would love to get your opinion on climate change next

The overwhelming majority of scientists agree that climate change is real and there is a non-negligible human element to the change. climate-change deniers are morons and harmful to the Earth.

Not what you expected, I'm guessing.
 

Ekai

Member
When scientists who are active in the field under discussion mostly agree with him (or at least think the guy is making a reasonable argument), you might want to rethink which group is operating under unfounded assumptions.

This is just flat out not true.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Only those benefiting from privilege see the leveling of the playing field for those systemically shut out from playing as discriminaton. Don't fall into the trap of legitimizing that intellectually bankrupt idea.

Then you level the playing field by dismantling those systemic barriers. Like with this guy, it's plain some people use it as a disingenuous way of saying "I suppose diversity, but I don't actually want to do anything to promote it", but I don't see the idea of working to be race and gender-blind as intellectually bankrupt. The only diversity initiative in the piece quoted that seems like it could be discriminatory is preventing certain employees from taking workshops, but the vast majority of what he's railing against don't actually have anything to do with that. I highly doubt his characterization that Google is lowering standards for hiring in order to bring in more women is actually true, for instance.
 

hampig

Member
I think ideological diversity should be top priority, but I think this guy takes it a little bit too far. If he lived in a bubble and the world was as it should be then I think his general ideas wouldn't be bad, but that's not how it is. Google should be one of the companies on the front-line championing diversity on all fronts.
 
systemic barriers put in place by men for men, that is also cultural. You incentive bringing other people in to fight this. This is not bringing men down as much as bringing others up. when you. googles entire employment is 69 31 and 80/20 in tech positions.

Google breaking out some of there seminars and workshops for only women might be the only way for women to have a chance to attend them when they are already hard to attend.
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
The overwhelming majority of scientists agree that climate change is real and there is a non-negligible human element to the change. climate-change deniers are morons and harmful to the Earth.

Not what you expected, I'm guessing.

so how come you can accept reality on climate change but ignore the scientific consensus on this google memo?
 
so how come you can accept reality on climate change but ignore the scientific consensus on this google memo?

Have authors such as this been discredit somewhere? This looks like a woman with a PhD in neuroscience disagreeing with other scientists. There have been others as well, but that's the link I happen to have handy. So to me, I just see equally credible scientists debating with each other, which is the definition of "lack of consensus".
 

Lesath

Member
Honestly there's just as many scientists who agree with him as who disagree with him. So, I don't know. It's hard to take any of them seriously, because all of them are just flat out saying the other people are obviously wrong "because science". It's interesting that even the scientists can't seem to address this without letting their personal bias get involved.

I'm not denying some scientists agree with him; certainly one of my co-workers seems to agree with the gist of what he says (I do not). Left-leaning as most of us are, many of us, as academics, are really married to the idea of meritocracy - that only the best and brightest, regardless of gender, race, or what have you - should be accepted into PhD programs, faculty positions, etc. To do otherwise is going out of your way to handicap yourself in an extremely competitive environment. I'd imagine that a lot of people in tech feel similarly.

That being said, I'm all for the left's "authoritarian" approach, and not because of some vague argument that diversity encourages different points of view. I don't think you can truly win a utilitarian argument with that.

I simply think it's the right thing to do, and if it boils down to it, a laissez-faire approach in hoping that the ills of society will naturally correct itself in the course of an indefinte amount of time to some unknowable degree is, in my view, incredibly short-sighted and self-serving.
 

Zaphrynn

Member

Unsurprising to me. Despite getting good grades, despite doing extremely well in my physics class, despite the hours I would spend coding in high school, I never once thought I would be "good enough" or "smart enough" to go to school for computer science or engineering. Lol at thinking I was smart enough to get a physics degree. This was propped up by a nerd culture that assumes women aren't as good as men in these fields, and by the "litmus tests" I would constantly encounter from men.

Reading the shit in the memo is just another lovely man thinking he is a bastion of logic and smart decisions compared to his female counterparts. He can fuck off, and I'm sick of dealing with men like him in nerd-spaces and at school. It absolutely hurts morale, and it absolutely affects women in tech. We deal with people hinting at or outright telling us that our biology makes us inferior all the time. This asshole was just another scoop on top of the shit-sundae women are handed by ignorant men in tech all the time.

The memo guy is on Twitter now.
https://twitter.com/Fired4Truth

Right at it retweeting a sexist and racist like Mike Cernovich.

If some of you needed any more proof that this guy was just full of it...

Shocking.
 

Jakoo

Member
Woof. This dude running into the arms of the Cernovich/Molyneux crowd isn't going to add much credence to the argument that he honestly had the best interest of women or google at heart. Such a predictable, lame move.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Woof. This dude running into the arms of the Cernovich/Molyneux crowd isn't going to add much credence to the argument that he honestly had the best interest of women or google at heart. Such a predictable, lame move.

The response on my feed was "well the mainstream media libeled him in the first place, so of course he wouldn't talk to them."
 
Does anyone know how we got here? I mean, there's a ton of professions that started overwhelmingly male and eventually got close to or over gender parity - even a lot of very well paying and prestigious fields like law and medicine.

Why's tech the holdout, when it was overwhelmingly women 40 years ago? Why did the number of women in tech drop around the same time women were making huge strides everywhere else?

I can't figure it out.



(maybe already posted, but w/e)

Will Wilkinson, off the top of my head. Me, I think protecting an employee's right to question workplace policies is important and I hope the LRB case goes well for him. Principled civil libertarians exist.
 
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