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[alstein]

To people saying austerity won't work ... what's the alternative? let them default and go back to drachma? Default means they still have to pay their debt and they will have a harder time to borrow. For a country that runs huge trade deficit (for every Euro Greece exports it imports 3 Euros), a weak currency and a bad credit will basically kill it. Believe it or not, stay in the Euro zone and keep exploiting the Euro is just better for them.

Default= debts won't get paid, though they'd have to balance their budget immediately. Would be like Iceland or Argentina.

That said, a full-out default would mean these things

a) For once, the megabanks would pay for their risky behavior
b) Serious shakeup of financial system, leading to some short-term pain. It might topple Obama.
c) Increase in risk aversion at the highest levels of finance- IMO this would be a good thing.

I kinda hope there's a Greek default, but not until 2013.

 

[poisonelf]

Found it:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,814920,00.html

I didn't read this, I will right now, just let me warn you that Soros is as involved as anyone in speculation investing in Greece, and he's also profiting through other means, such as buying at fractions of their value the gold mines in Chalkidiki.

Soros is pretty much the devil incarnate here as far as public opinion is concerned. I'm not saying that you should disregard what he says or that you should share nationalistic public opinion, just giving a heads up.

 

[HarryHengst]

You mean in their rioting that will lead to nothing?

Calling this a revolution is pretty bad joke to people who have actually fought to overthrow oppression and tyranny.



Seems more like the husband did something illegal to get and 11.5 Euro fine.

Im glad you are okay with people starving because of fines. Bootstrapping and all, am i right?

 

[jimi_dini]

He's part of the reason they can't afford it and apparently part of the problems that helped get Greece the way it is now.

How is that one man responsible for insurance firms not paying bills? Those insurance firms were paid for getting insured. Now they break the contract by not paying medicine bills. That's pretty fucked up.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Im glad you are okay with people starving because of fines. Bootstrapping and all, am i right?

If they worked for Goldman Sachs, you'd be fine with it.

 

[AllenShrz]

I guess my trip to mykonos will have to wait.


I don't see how this can be resolved. It pretty much looks like Argentina all over again and with 10 long years of struggle to get out of the the crisis.

Yet again, Argentina is a much larger country with a lot more resources.

I feel bad for the people :/

 

[_Xenon_]

Default= debts won't get paid, though they'd have to balance their budget immediately. Would be like Iceland or Argentina.

That said, a full-out default would mean these things

a) For once, the megabanks would pay for their risky behavior
b) Serious shakeup of financial system, leading to some short-term pain. It might topple Obama.
c) Increase in risk aversion at the highest levels of finance- IMO this would be a good thing.

I kinda hope there's a Greek default, but not until 2013.

1. A full-out default is not up to Greek, it's up to IMF. Unless somehow Greece has the ability to produce unclear weapon they are just not in the position of even thinking it (we are talking about 300+ B here).

2. Even for some reason IMF let them default, their currency would literally be the same as toilet paper and they would never become another Argentina, because:

3.

Argentina actually produces something before the 2001 crisis. What does Greece do? Just because A went well B had a good ending doesn't mean C can follow their steps. Greece's current economy is import orientated. A weak currency and a bad credit will destroy them.

 

[DiscoJer]

I didn't read this, I will right now, just let me warn you that Soros is as involved as anyone in speculation investing in Greece, and he's also profiting through other means, such as buying at fractions of their value the gold mines in Chalkidiki.

Soros is pretty much the devil incarnate here as far as public opinion is concerned. I'm not saying that you should disregard what he says or that you should share nationalistic public opinion, just giving a heads up.

The guy basically crashed the UK's currency once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

A lot of these billionaires like to talk a lot of lefty stuff, but in a lot of cases, they're making a lot of money off of it. Buffet is another great example - he bought a lot of bank stock right before that foreclosure settlement. He made money off the Keystone pipeline being denied because he owns a lot of railroad stock (which is how the oil will be transported instead).

Another great example is the individual mandate in the US - basically instead of universal health care, it's making people buy health insurance at a high mark-up. Who wins? The insurance companies.

The problem is, government & corporations are not adversaries - instead, they are collaborators - it doesn't matter if the government is left or right. The more power you give governments, the more they will use that power to take money from the people and give it to their corporate cronies.

The only solution is to simply limit government power over its citizens. Fiat money is a great example - while going to be a gold standard has it's problems, governments can silently tax people by simply printing more money.

In the US, this is a big reason while food and gas are so expensive - the government has a huge debt, and to pay it off, they simply print more money, which means it's worth less. But who is hurt by it? The people who need more and more money just to buy the basics.

Greece has similarly been hurt by having the Euro basically forced on them, but not having any say in its worth or the financial system.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Some even throw stuff at the police after they have experienced the brutality of the chemicals. However the police response is again extreme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIhhsXUDcVk

In this video the motorcycle riding police, the DELTA and the DIAS (Zeus) units, are going about terror tactics of running through crowds as happened before. Someone attempts to kick a passing motorcycle. As a response the next coming bike tries to ram innocent people next to him. When they fall down you can see the people afraid of a single police officer. That’s because they’re all everyday, ‘simple’ people.

poisonelf, I definitely feel for your and your countryman's plight, and I'm beginning to think that a real revolution might be needed to escape the oppressive burdens being forced on Greece. Police brutality is clear and unconscionable.

That said, I'm not sure the motorcycle "ramming" in this video represents such brutality, and claiming that it does hurts your credibility (as does claiming that tear gassing old men is "attempted murder.") That's a shame because I don't think you're doing it on purpose.

There's a lot going on in this video, but let me try to point out something from my position of non-chaotic safety. Call the police motorcycle that they guy in the foreground tries to kick "A," the motorcycle right behind A that crashes in the foreground "B," and the one after B that crashes in the background "C." At 0:15, as the guy in the foreground is kicking a A, another guy rushes out of the pack at B. B's crash into the crowd doesn't look like a ramming in retaliation for the kick on A, but rather an over-correction to the sudden appearance of a person in B's own way that causes B to lose control. C is too far back to tell what caused his crash (I suspect due to following too close behind B,) but at least he manages to lay it down in the street.

Look, I'm not defending the cops, I'm sure they've done enough brutal things that whether this particular incident is intentional or not is a drop in the bucket. I guess what I doing by spending an hour in the middle of the night (US time) is hoping to help you not blindly buy in to propaganda by either side. This was an incident started by a combination of a potentially dangerous motorcycle driving practice and zealous crowd, not one started by a maniacal cop intentionally crashing into a crowd on a revenge mission.

 

[Neo C.]

The only solution is to simply limit government power over its citizens.

the main reason for direct democracy. Just make sure your population isn't dumb as shit though. I've seen multiple times where people vote against their own interest.

 

[LJ11]

Found it:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,814920,00.html

Thanks, pretty fair, he's not really advocating for austerity. Country needs reforms in labor/tax/overall bureaucracy. You can't be dead last, or near the bottom, in many of these categories and expect to compete. At this point what do you fix first? So many problems.

I believe default is a question of when not if. There's just no way they can meet these demands and keep the people under control. Portugal is in rough shape, how much longer can they hold out? Tough times, feels like you're about to watch rows of dominoes go down.

 

[XMonkey]

the main reason for direct democracy. Just make sure your population isn't dumb as shit though. I've seen multiple times where people vote against their own interest.

That second part is pretty much a pipedream in a country the size of the US. Even better, California is a great case study for why direct democracy isn't such a hot idea. We've got pretty varied demographics. In a small, homogenous population it could work I think.

 

[alstein]

1. A full-out default is not up to Greek, it's up to IMF. Unless somehow Greece has the ability to produce unclear weapon they are just not in the position of even thinking it (we are talking about 300+ B here).

2. Even for some reason IMF let them default, their currency would literally be the same as toilet paper and they would never become another Argentina, because:

3.

Argentina actually produces something before the 2001 crisis. What does Greece do? Just because A went well B had a good ending doesn't mean C can follow their steps. Greece's current economy is import orientated. A weak currency and a bad credit will destroy them.

What are folks going to do if Greece just says we're bankrupt? Invasion? If we won't invade Syria, no one's going to take it by force to Greece.

The Greeks do have the ability to destroy Italy and Portugal at least, and seriously hurt France and Germany with a default. If they're going to be just as bad off either way, why not take someone down with you?

When a society feels they have no recourse, they will resort to desperate means, which can be tragic. I'm not calling the Greeks terrorists. but terrorism is one example of this.

 

[LJ11]

Stiglitz on ECB absurdity.

Found it interesting.

 

[Hyuga]

Yeah, so it's germany's fault because your goverment fucked shit up?
Well, "lol Greece" indeed.

 

[alstein]

Stiglitz on ECB absurdity.

Found it interesting.

Wouldn't the best free-market solution then be a default, having the insurance companies pay out, eventually go bankrupt themselves when other countries follow in a chain reaction, then have risk aversion come into play in the future with the creditors losing their money and their insurance?

The real issue to me seems to be a problem with unequal market power causing a free market failure.

The fact that Germany is a fight-inflation at all costs country (they would rather have a recession then inflation) doesn't help matters either.

 

[poisonelf]

poisonelf, I definitely feel for your and your countryman's plight, and I'm beginning to think that a real revolution might be needed to escape the oppressive burdens being forced on Greece. Police brutality is clear and unconscionable.

That said, I'm not sure the motorcycle "ramming" in this video represents such brutality, and claiming that it does hurts your credibility (as does claiming that tear gassing old men is "attempted murder.") That's a shame because I don't think you're doing it on purpose.

There's a lot going on in this video, but let me try to point out something from my position of non-chaotic safety. Call the police motorcycle that they guy in the foreground tries to kick "A," the motorcycle right behind A that crashes in the foreground "B," and the one after B that crashes in the background "C." At 0:15, as the guy in the foreground is kicking a A, another guy rushes out of the pack at B. B's crash into the crowd doesn't look like a ramming in retaliation for the kick on A, but rather an over-correction to the sudden appearance of a person in B's own way that causes B to lose control. C is too far back to tell what caused his crash (I suspect due to following too close behind B,) but at least he manages to lay it down in the street.

Look, I'm not defending the cops, I'm sure they've done enough brutal things that whether this particular incident is intentional or not is a drop in the bucket. I guess what I doing by spending an hour in the middle of the night (US time) is hoping to help you not blindly buy in to propaganda by either side. This was an incident started by a combination of a potentially dangerous motorcycle driving practice and zealous crowd, not one started by a maniacal cop intentionally crashing into a crowd on a revenge mission.

On the issue of the motorcycle I do agree with you. It doesn't so much showcase police brutality as it does what I was talking about about normal, frightened people starting to throw stuff at the police.
When I get home I'll show you another video of the bike riding cops to see how they truly operate and whether they ram people or not.

Police brutality is perfectly showcased in other videos and images. I'm not at home right now, I'll use some more images if you feel that all these videos don't portray what I'm saying.
There are hundreds of images of the police beating on old people and young boys or girls who were protesting peacefully, especially from the June huge protest during the voting of the first memorandum. This time I have to rely on less material since there is a very real black out of the real situation by controlled Greek media.

As for the attempted murder, I stand 100% by that. It's evident in all videos that the police threw chemicals unprovoked at 90 year old men. One of them has 1 lung after surgery (before that incident) which is pretty well known since he's a living national symbol
During the October riots a man died because of chemicals use. Yes, that's not simple brutality and uncalled for provocation, that's in part attempted murder.

Again, regarding the "why hate on Germany" issue, it's a large post I'm preparing.

I'm also avoiding getting into details about the economics side of the situation since that's another mega-OT thread that needs to be made, it's not that simple and crucial information will be lost if posted on a reply on page 4 or so.

 

[AAequal]

Yeah, so it's germany's fault because your goverment fucked shit up?
Well, "lol Greece" indeed.

Germany is in charge of the situation and Merkel's ridiculous penal interest rates for the bailouts are shitty deal for the Greece and in the end for the EU.

 

[Klyka]

I really like Greek food and I am sad to see the country turning to shit.

 

[_Xenon_]

What are folks going to do if Greece just says we're bankrupt? Invasion? If we won't invade Syria, no one's going to take it by force to Greece.

The Greeks do have the ability to destroy Italy and Portugal at least, and seriously hurt France and Germany with a default. If they're going to be just as bad off either way, why not take someone down with you?

When a society feels they have no recourse, they will resort to desperate means, which can be tragic. I'm not calling the Greeks terrorists. but terrorism is one example of this.

1. You overestimated their military power. They don't produce oil and they don't make their own weapon, and they are broke, and they don't have a suger daddy. They are just not in the position to invade others or even become terrorists.

2. Yes it's kind of over exaggerated to bring up nuclear weapons but you should get my point. If they wrote off their debts on their own then there would be sanctions, blocks, all sorts of things that would make them hope those Mayan people were right. Keep this in mind: Greece is import orientated. Without stuffs coming outside the country they are done.

3. I'm still waiting for the answers to my original questions. What does Greece do to make money and how is it gonna survive with a weak currency, a huge trade deficit, and bad credit if they default? If they can't then staying in the Euro zone is still their best bet.

 

[Neo C.]

Thanks, pretty fair, he's not really advocating for austerity. Country needs reforms in labor/tax/overall bureaucracy. You can't be dead last, or near the bottom, in many of these categories and expect to compete. At this point what do you fix first? So many problems.

I agree, austerity alone doesn't work, it always has to combine with a stimulation program. On the other hand, stimulation alone doesn't help either. In the last 10 years the EU has kept giving money the Greece, but the Greeks never did real reforms before 2008; one would argue they even haven't done the reforms now.

That second part is pretty much a pipedream in a country the size of the US. Even better, California is a great case study for why direct democracy isn't such a hot idea. We've got pretty varied demographics. In a small, homogenous population it could work I think.

I think California needs big reforms in regards to its direct democracy. Switzerland isn't homogenous either, and the Swiss did some stupid votes; yet when there's a very imporant issue, the Swiss are able to vote in their interests.

 

[LJ11]

1. You overestimated their military power. They don't produce oil and they don't make their own weapon, and they are broke, and they don't have a suger daddy. They are just not in the position to invade others or even become terrorists.

2. Yes it's kind of over exaggerated to bring up nuclear weapons but you should get my point. If they wrote off their debts on their own then there would be sanctions, blocks, all sorts of things that would make them hope those Mayan people were right. Keep this in mind: Greece is import orientated. Without stuffs coming outside the country they are done.

3. I'm still waiting for the answers to my original questions. What does Greece do to make money and how is it gonna survive with a weak currency, a huge trade deficit, and bad credit if they default? If they can't then staying in the Euro zone is still their best bet.

Even if they don't default their credit is irreparably damaged for the foreseeable future.

A weak currency will help them gain competitiveness even if their exports are shit. They'll be forced to buy domestically because imports will be punitive. Will this change their account balances overnight, of course not, but it'll help decrease the gap. They can't fund their current account deficit anyway, you need to borrow to do it and they can't borrow.

What you essentially advocate for is the continuation of massive current account deficits, which they must borrow to pay for. Not to mention how woeful consumer demand is, wages/salaries will be slashed throughout the year, leading to lower demand, lower tax revenue, lower prices, lower wages, and on and on.

Edit: The only reason their current account deficit hasn't reversed dramatically is because of loans from the ECB. In the face of capital flight Greece has maintained their deficit on the backs of ECB loans. Remove them and everything starts to unwind. Self correcting mechanisms are not allowed to function under these circumstances.

 

[Binabik15]

Publice service announcement: Stop hating on Germany and start hating on the current CDU/FDP government and their corporate and bank buddies, or else the Greek population will loose any sympathy that is left in the German populace.

I'm serious.

Many people here are already enraged at Greek politicians, finaciers, bankers and demonstrators/rioters blaiming them at every instance. People here work hard as well. They pay a lot of taxes. Job security is as bad as everywhere esle, many people are so scared of getting laid off they develop depression. Their salaries get slashed or at least not raised because "global economy", commodities, fuel, heating, water, energy, taxes and fees are raised. HUNDREDS of billions are funneled into the banking "Rettungsschirm" and all kinds of ailling EU countries, billions that were promised to go to lowering taxes, increasing our quality of life and paying off our national debt. Billions that exist because for years our social safety net was slashed down and people made sacrifices. On top of all that, Germans by and large do not have personal debt to pay for tvs, cars, clothes or vacations, but savings. Being a good little worker, being docile in behaviour, paying taxes and putting money away was the ideal for a German before we even existed as one country.

Now those people are robbed blind AND blamed for it by the "victims" (as in: inhabitants of the country that money is funneled through) of their apparent financial bullying. Add nazi accusations/imagery on transparents which WILL get a strong negative reaction and it gets ugly. The only response to that can be anger. People here ARE angry already. We had our own large scale demonstrations over the last years. All the frustration and resentement for OUR banking system and our crop of banksters will be redirected towards the failling EU states.

The result: a strengthening of Merkel's position. It will allow her to do everything she pleases with popular support. As someone who has always voted for someone else, that's not what I want. As Greeks, neither should you.

 

[jimi_dini]

Germany is in charge of the situation and Merkel's ridiculous penal interest rates for the bailouts are shitty deal for the Greece and in the end for the EU.

Also Germany forced them to not cancel some military purchases. Guess from whom Greece purchased this military stuff? German companies.

 

[Klyka]

Publice service announcement: Stop hating on Germany and start hating on the current CDU/FDP government and their corporate and bank buddies, or else the Greek population will loose any sympathy that is left in the German populace.

I'm serious.

Many people here are already enraged at Greek politicians, finaciers, bankers and demonstrators/rioters blaiming them at every instance. People here work hard as well. They pay a lot of taxes. Job security is as bad as everywhere esle, many people are so scared of getting laid off they develop depression. Their salaries get slashed or at least not raised because "global economy", commodities, fuel, heating, water, energy, taxes and fees are raised. HUNDREDS of billions are funneled into the banking "Rettungsschirm" and all kinds of ailling EU countries, billions that were promised to go to lowering taxes, increasing our quality of life and paying off our national debt. Billions that exist because for years our social safety net was slashed down and people made sacrifices. On top of all that, Germans by and large do not have personal debt to pay for tvs, cars, clothes or vacations, but savings. Being a good little worker, being docile in behaviour, paying taxes and putting money away was the ideal for a German before we even existed as one country.

Now those people are robbed blind AND blamed for it by the "victims" (as in: inhabitants of the country that money is funneled through) of their apparent financial bullying. Add nazi accusations/imagery on transparents which WILL get a strong negative reaction and it gets ugly. The only response to that can be anger. People here ARE angry already. We had our own large scale demonstrations over the last years. All the frustration and resentement for OUR banking system and our crop of banksters will be redirected towards the failling EU states.

The result: a strengthening of Merkel's position. It will allow her to do everything she pleases with popular support. As someone who has always voted for someone else, that's not what I want. As Greeks, neither should you.

Yeah, it's getting pretty ridiculous over here what with hearing politicians say "We need to save the EU" and then hearing the other countries say "Fuck Germany".

 

[Glorious_Paradox]

poisonelf, thanks so much for creating this thread. More people need to know the truth about what's really happening in our country. Keep the Greek spirit alive adelfe!

 

[Fatalah]

Forwarding OP post around. Thanks for your accounts.

 

[empty vessel]

To people saying austerity won't work ... what's the alternative? let them default and go back to drachma?

As explained in the link I provided earlier by Bill Mitchell, they wouldn't default. They would convert the debt into the Drachmas and pay with that.

 

[BobsRevenge]

How about you Germans and Greeks both blame horrible financial regulations for some of this bullshit? Can you guys at least agree on that? :lol

Stop being so nationalistic. Nationalism is almost always bullshit, and it most certainly is here.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

How about you Germans and Greeks both blame horrible financial regulations for some of this bullshit? Can you guys at least agree on that? :lol

Stop being so nationalistic. Nationalism is almost always bullshit, and it most certainly is here.

SERIOUSLY

Germans and Greeks are both great people, hard working, etc and have no reason to dislike eachother. The finger pointing and petty flag bearing is all bullshit, it's banking institutions, corporations and corruption that is the enemy here

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

SERIOUSLY

Germans and Greeks are both great people, hard working, etc and have no reason to dislike eachother. The finger pointing and petty flag bearing is all bullshit, it's banking institutions, corporations and corruption that is the enemy here

Nothing like demanding personal responsibility for other, but not for ones own self.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Anyone have an actual statistic about the Greek-German trade balance? I often read in this kind of thread about Greek money getting extorted to Germany via imports. What about the stuff that Germany imports from Greece in return?

 

[Sir Garbageman]

Eye opening stuff OP, good luck and stay safe.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

On the issue of the motorcycle I do agree with you. It doesn't so much showcase police brutality as it does what I was talking about about normal, frightened people starting to throw stuff at the police.

Then why did you write, "As a response the next coming bike tries to ram innocent people next to him." if you don't think it shows police brutality?

When I get home I'll show you another video of the bike riding cops to see how they truly operate and whether they ram people or not.

I don't doubt that they do purposely ram people, I just don't think this particular video you highlighted as proving that.

As for the attempted murder, I stand 100% by that. It's evident in all videos that the police threw chemicals unprovoked at 90 year old men. One of them has 1 lung after surgery (before that incident) which is pretty well known since he's a living national symbol
During the October riots a man died because of chemicals use. Yes, that's not simple brutality and uncalled for provocation, that's in part attempted murder.

People have died doing all kinds of things, that doesn't automatically make doing those things an attempt to commit murder. Tear gas is considered non-lethal. Restraining a person is considered non-lethal. Pillow fights are considered non-lethal. And yet, all of those have caused deaths. If cops were restrained from doing anything that has caused a death for fear of attempted murder accusations, there's not much they could do.

I recognize that there's enormous rhetorical power in calling it attempted murder, but it's simply not. It's brutal and inhumane, but there are far more effective ways at their disposal to try to kill someone.

 

[poisonelf]

Then why did you write, "As a response the next coming bike tries to ram innocent people next to him." if you don't think it shows police brutality?


I don't doubt that they do purposely ram people, I just don't think this particular video you highlighted as proving that.


People have died doing all kinds of things, that doesn't automatically make doing those things an attempt to commit murder. Tear gas is considered non-lethal. Restraining a person is considered non-lethal. Pillow fights are considered non-lethal. And yet, all of those have caused deaths. If cops were restrained from doing anything that has caused a death for fear of attempted murder accusations, there's not much they could do.

I recognize that there's enormous rhetorical power in calling it attempted murder, but it's simply not. It's brutal and inhumane, but there are far more effective ways at their disposal to try to kill someone.

OH COME ON. You mean to tell me you went all through the videos, watching protesters being sprayed for no reason, watching chemicals being thrown at elderly men, and you take issue with one video out of 10 or so, where I describe the police ramming people, which they are, because it's not 100% clear.

As I said, here are some images from the June protests. That's a few months back, for the same reason (voting of "austerity" measures).
It's not 'something different', the thing is that up to June Greek media were all over the protests so there was huge coverage.
Now it's all about concealing facts and results, so most of the videos and images are by cell phones.

In this video the protestor is saying: "don't hit me" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S20_JuaX8gg , just before the hit. Watch to the end to see the results of the hit.

In this one they throw chemicals down the subway station, closed space marked as medical refuge, with volunteer doctors and the injured: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXwPCwyAgVI

Here bike riding police terrorizes businesses far away from the protests herding protestors like cattle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJqWgP-YhQI

A nice image of the bike riding guys trying to hit a dog (for fun? judge for yourself how dangerous this dog is

And things were worse during the Sunday protests. And yes, people are talking about a revolution. That's why they were there, the chants all have to do with storming the parliament and 'hanging the traitors'.
It was not a protest about some union demands, it was a protest against what is seen by the majority of Greeks at this point as the destruction of our lives and our country.

As for the 'attempted murder', yes I do stand by that. I didn't quote it as a statement by official sources, but as my opinion. I'm 34 and I almost fainted not being able to breathe, I was suffocating. I was further away and certainly not 90 years old. You can use comparisons with pillow fights all you want, the police couldn't even know whether Theodorakis and Glezos had masks with them or not. They didn't actually, others provided them.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

OH COME ON. You mean to tell me you went all through the videos, watching protesters being sprayed for no reason, watching chemicals being thrown at elderly men, and you take issue with one video out of 10 or so, where I describe the police ramming people, which they are, because it's not 100% clear.

You're missing my point. I agree with you. I'm taking you at your word. You're on the ground, so to speak, and I'm half a world away and I appreciate that you've seen with your own eyes police brutality the likes I consider myself fortunate to not have seen. I know police have intentionally rammed people. I agree with you that it's deplorable what the cops are doing to peaceful protesters. I assume these things are true because I trust you.

But...

The one video you posted that I checked to see just how bad it was didn't meet the level of brutality you described. It was an accident caused by a dangerous police tactic of high speed riding in a crowded situation and a person stepping in to the street at the wrong. No, I'm not going to check out all the other videos and photos you've posted because I trust that you've described them accurately. I take issue with this one particular video, but I trust that I wouldn't have issues with any of the other ones because I trust you.

As for the 'attempted murder', yes I do stand by that. I didn't quote it as a statement by official sources, but as my opinion. I'm 34 and I almost fainted not being able to breathe, I was suffocating. I was further away and certainly not 90 years old. You can use comparisons with pillow fights all you want, the police couldn't even know whether Theodorakis and Glezos had masks with them or not. They didn't actually, others provided them.

And I stand by my statement that calling police brutality "attempted murder" is rhetorically powerful, but objectively wrong. Tear gas in this case is brutal, inhumane, deplorable, malicious, hell, it's even potentially fatal as you've pointed out, but it's not an attempt to murder.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

i agree Squirrel, poisonelf filos mas! i would refrain from such rhetoric until they really really DO try to murder someone and it would be far more powerful. By using them in just shitty situation, it loses the power for when it happens.

 

[YourMaster]

What are folks going to do if Greece just says we're bankrupt? Invasion?

It should have been the plan from the start. The Greek assets were greater then their debts but they 'couldn't' pay back their debts, so they were lent more money and now there's they are reducing the debts.

They should have held on to make them repay their debts 100%, and if Greece would be unwilling take it by force. There are so many ways to recoup the money, from selling islands to turkey, land to Macedonia, military equipment to whomever to taking the personal possession of ordinary Greek people and put them on "ebay".

 

[WARCOCK]

It should have been the plan from the start. The Greek assets were greater then their debts but they 'couldn't' pay back their debts, so they were lent more money and now there's they are reducing the debts.

They should have held on to make them repay their debts 100%, and if Greece would be unwilling take it by force. There are so many ways to recoup the money, from selling islands to turkey, land to Macedonia, military equipment to whomever to taking the personal possession of ordinary Greek people and put them on "ebay".

Not sure if serious.

Invasion is pretty hilarious, just ask your grandparents dutchy. I'm sure they had a swell time.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Not sure if serious.

Invasion is pretty hilarious, just ask your grandparents dutchy. I'm sure they had a swell time.

lol he's not serious man.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Where can I find more info on the Goldmansachs deal?

 

[Hyuga]

Germany is in charge of the situation and Merkel's ridiculous penal interest rates for the bailouts are shitty deal for the Greece and in the end for the EU.

Greece cheated to even get into the EU.
Well, now pay for it.
Acutally, germany has to pay a lot of greecs shit now.

 

[Lord Ghirahim]

I heard they just detained German nationals that protested against Merkel and Schäuble outside the German embassy.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Greece cheated to even get into the EU.
Well, now pay for it.
Acutally, germany has to pay a lot of greecs shit now.

don't be disingenous and self righteous you Penner, the Greek people, the ones who are actually paying for this crisis, weren't the creators of this crisis nor did they falsify entrance into the EU

Acutally, germany has to pay a lot of greecs shit now.

again, don't be so self important and self righteous. The German government is helping keep Greece afloat long enough to sell assets and make lucrative deals. Yeah, real savings oriented forcing Greece to buy a shit ton of German Weapons

 

[AAequal]

Greece cheated to even get into the EU.
Well, now pay for it.
Acutally, germany has to pay a lot of greecs shit now.

Doesn't change the fact that Merkel's policy towards this crisis is bad, it's not going to help Greece nor EU. Also cheated isn't really the right term since everybody knew about Greeks bad economy when they joined the EMU.

Greek didn't meet the membership criterias in 2001 and yet they were let in. Greek back then had higest inflation rates in Europe, unemployment was 10.3%, public sector borrowing was also much higher than would be permitted normally under the EU rules and yet they were let in EMU. We've made our bed, now we lie in it.

 

[leadbelly]

Acutally, germany has to pay a lot of greecs shit now.

lol

It doesn't quite work the way you think it does. Quite a big percentage of the money Germany gave Greece was spent on military exports from Germany. Greece has some money, but then they can't make the most of it because they are having to buy shit they shouldn't really be buying.

 

[poisonelf]

I heard they just detained German nationals that protested against Merkel and Schäuble outside the German embassy.

Actually support throughout Europe for Greece is on the rise. Messages of solidarity from Spain and Italy to Austria and Germany are popping up, including protests. I'm gathering sources to post about that.

Personally I believe that the huge myth campaign about lazy, thieving Greeks started in part to stop such support, so that all those "austerity" measures of the TROIKA Memorandum that impoverish Greece and support the banks could be imposed while EU public opinion would support them as deserving.
I know I'll probably find myself under fire for this, but can you provide me with a more plausible explanation on why these fairy tales were throughout Western press when it's easily proven, by a look at Eurostat for example, that Greeks worked the most hours in the EU, retired later than the EU average, and pay numerous 'unofficial' taxes amounting for huge taxation? Perhaps the last issue needed some actual journalistic research, the first 2 are a joke to find.

Also... I've finished the post about Germany's involvement in the Greek situation, how Greeks view it and what we're presented with, and why the anger towards Germany. It's a pretty big one, kind of like the OP here.
Should I post a different thread or post it here?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Actually support throughout Europe for Greece is on the rise. Messages of solidarity from Spain and Italy to Austria and Germany are popping up, including protests. I'm gathering sources to post about that.

Personally I believe that the huge myth campaign about lazy, thieving Greeks started in part to stop such support, so that all those "austerity" measures of the TROIKA Memorandum that impoverish Greece and support the banks could be imposed while EU public opinion would support them as deserving.
I know I'll probably find myself under fire for this, but can you provide me with a more plausible explanation on why these fairy tales were throughout Western press when it's easily proven, by a look at Eurostat for example, that Greeks worked the most hours in the EU, retired later than the EU average, and pay numerous 'unofficial' taxes amounting for huge taxation? Perhaps the last issue needed some actual journalistic research, the first 2 are a joke to find.

Also... I've finished the post about Germany's involvement in the Greek situation, how Greeks view it and what we're presented with, and why the anger towards Germany. It's a pretty big one, kind of like the OP here.
Should I post a different thread or post it here?

to mega thread or not to mega thread

 

[poisonelf]

RIGHT NOW: High school students gathered to protest outside the Parliament.

Riot police is firing chemicals at them and hunting them down.

Greek media are ALL showing lifestyle shows.

I'll try to find images or videos, so far there are only written reports.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT. I'm trembling.

http://www.tsantiri.gr/koinonia-kinimata/ntropi-chrisi-dakrigonon-ke-chimikon-enantion-mathiton.html (in Greek).

 

[alstein]

RIGHT NOW: High school students gathered to protest outside the Parliament.

Riot police is firing chemicals at them and hunting them down.

Greek media are ALL showing lifestyle shows.

I'll try to find images or videos, so far there are only written reports.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT. I'm trembling.

http://www.tsantiri.gr/koinonia-kinimata/ntropi-chrisi-dakrigonon-ke-chimikon-enantion-mathiton.html (in Greek).

OWS solved this problem by having folks out there post to Youtube. Maybe copy that idea?