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[Mortrialus]

So what. You still gotta pay back your debts. Or do you think the rest of Europe can conjure 130 billion Euro out of thin air? The current situation is what you get when corruption is ingrained throughout Greek society. Just be glad a great portion of the Greek debt is already written off as a loss, or you'd be far worse off.

What the fuck does that even mean? Are you seriously suggesting that the entirety of greek society is corrupt? The majority? I mean what are you trying to say here? That greeks are generally liars, who take bribes, and use their job as a public servant to benefit themselves and only themselves? I mean even the children? Or do you mean Greek government, which would be more appropriate? Think about what you are actually writing when you post or your posts look make you look like a fucking bigot.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

yeah the propaganda really reaches into the sky sometimes.

 

[CrunchyB]

What the fuck does that even mean? Are you seriously suggesting that the entirety of greek society is corrupt?

This is interesting. A lot of resentment stems from the fact that the people of Greece seem to deny any responsibilty. Well, guess what, they democratically elected the government who put them into this mess (although the massive tax-dodging didn't help )

So, what exactly do the greeks expect from the rest of the Eurozone? Do we have liberate the country by force from their evil politician oppressors? Or continue to prop up a disfunctional country? Come on now.

Of course, this whole crisis is looking more like class warfare every minute. It's also not limited to greece at all, that's just the site of this particular battle. There will be more, but that's looking at the bigger picture. Instead, most Eurozone countries focus on their bottom line; how to best escape this quagmire.

And other than being naive (some might say willfully ingnorant), the rest of the Eurozone is not at fault here. Right now, Greece is pretty much cut off completely and left to fend for themselves. The bridges are burned, the EU has nothing left to offer you guys.

Right now, Greece defaulting Argentina-style seems like best way out. If nothing else, it will fuck up everyone speculating on a Eurozone bailout. Maybe in 10 years time, the greek economy can be rebuilt.

But if you guys want to patch up stuff with the rest of the EU (not impossible, but more unlikely every day), it's probably best to start a good PR campaign now.

 

[CorvoSol]

That raises an interesting question: Is a people to be held responsible when a government that is democratically elected corrupts itself? Leaving aside for a moment how "democratic" elections may or may not be, is it the fault of a people when its leadership becomes corrupt? I suppose that implies that the leaders were not corrupt prior to the election, so, by way of expanding: Is a corrupt democracy the fault of its people, or the fault of its leaders?

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

So who's going to lead this new Greece after this revolution is over?

Fortified_concept? He's Greek after all.

 

[empty vessel]

That raises an interesting question: Is a people to be held responsible when a government that is democratically elected corrupts itself?

If that's the case, every American can be hanged for the war crime of aggression against Iraq in 2003. Reasonable people understand that "democracies" are far from ideal and that governments we recognize as democratic in reality aren't, or aren't perfect expressions of them, some coming closer than others.

There is a difference, too, between acknowledging that countries we recognize as democracies in reality aren't and exhorting others to consider moral accountability for their allegedly democratic government's actions when advocating specific policies. When considering policy, I work from the principle that I am morally accountable for what my allegedly democratic government does (which is why I tend to be strongly anti-interventionist), but I understand the reality of the situation and would not expect or ask that all Americans be hanged for George Bush's war crimes.

 

[alstein]

That raises an interesting question: Is a people to be held responsible when a government that is democratically elected corrupts itself? Leaving aside for a moment how "democratic" elections may or may not be, is it the fault of a people when its leadership becomes corrupt? I suppose that implies that the leaders were not corrupt prior to the election, so, by way of expanding: Is a corrupt democracy the fault of its people, or the fault of its leaders?

Depends on the level of electoral corruption. Ultimately I'd say yes, which worries me about America.

That said, I do think the Germans and their fear of inflation is making things worse.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

If that's the case, every American can be hanged for the war crime of aggression against Iraq in 2003. Reasonable people understand that "democracies" are far from ideal and that governments we recognize as democratic in reality aren't, or aren't perfect expressions of them, some coming closer than others.

There is a difference, too, between acknowledging that countries we recognize as democracies in reality aren't and exhorting others to consider moral accountability for their allegedly democratic government's actions when advocating specific policies. When considering policy, I work from the principle that I am morally accountable for what my allegedly democratic government does (which is why I tend to be strongly anti-interventionist), but I understand the reality of the situation and would not expect or ask that all Americans be hanged for George Bush's war crimes.

What war crimes are you talking about? America and George Bush didn't commit any war crimes. Are you just making stuff up for your hypothetical?

 

[empty vessel]

What war crimes are you talking about? America and George Bush didn't commit any war crimes. Are you just making stuff up for your hypothetical?

No.

 

[bigtroyjon]

If that's the case, every American can be hanged for the war crime of aggression against Iraq in 2003. Reasonable people understand that "democracies" are far from ideal and that governments we recognize as democratic in reality aren't, or aren't perfect expressions of them, some coming closer than others.

There is a difference, too, between acknowledging that countries we recognize as democracies in reality aren't and exhorting others to consider moral accountability for their allegedly democratic government's actions when advocating specific policies. When considering policy, I work from the principle that I am morally accountable for what my allegedly democratic government does (which is why I tend to be strongly anti-interventionist), but I understand the reality of the situation and would not expect or ask that all Americans be hanged for George Bush's war crimes.

When was the American government convicted of a war crime?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

No.

Are you sure?

 

[poisonelf]

Not all Greek people agree on the issue of responsibility. There is a lot of guilt and self defeatism flying around here for voting these guys.
Personally I feel less inclined to feel guilty both because I never voted for them, but also because I recognize the immense PR and propaganda campaigns that have been going on in my country and the way these political parties have been tied to each and every aspect of society, making it extremely difficult to succeed economically here without supporting them.

It would be similar to blaming the American people for keeping on voting Republicans and Democrats when they're different sides of the same coin, and holding every US citizen accountable for the various atrocities the US has committed, all the way from Latin America, to Iraq and Pakistan.

In the case of the latest, most crucial elections in Greece 2,5 years or so ago:

George Papandreou, president of PASOK, they party that got us into the IMF and the TROIKA, was elected under false pretenses. Not the usual political worthless talk, but a total scam:

1. He kept claiming that there is enough money to avoid any austerity. The now infamous phrase "The money is here" (Lefta Iparhoun). Even after having been invited by Karamanlis to look over the numbers, and he also was member of the previous government as a minister of foreign affairs, so then claiming ignorance was ridiculous.

2. His entire campaign was based on not needing to borrow money, no austerity being needed, and no privatizations being necessary. THE MAN ACTUALLY WENT TO PROTESTS AND GOT TEAR GASSED.

3. He gave an interview claiming the IMF destroys countries and that we would never go to the IMF since it would prove destructive.

4. He claimed going to the IMF was a final option of the last minute, when Strauss Khan gave an interview to a french journalist claiming Papandreou was in talks already a year before but didn't want the public to know.

5. Greek statistics is now going to trial under accusations by employees of the office that Greek deficit was artificially blown up by including unnecessary numbers so that Greece going to the IMF would be seen as unavoidable.

I will be using links and sources for ALL of my claims above. I'm not at home right now. I think I've already provided the links in previous threads but I'll just do it from home where I have everything saved up.

So, Papandreou was voted as the man who claimed he'd end corruption, he'd find the money here from those hiding behind corruption, who claimed we'll never borrow money to cover needs.
Being the son of Andreas Papandreou, the man who led Greece into the greatest prosperity the people here ever experienced, he was seen as the messiah, especially by the 45+ years old generation.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So basically trying to blame someone else for all the problems, despite the fact Greece voted him in.

It would be similar to blaming the American people for keeping on voting Republicans and Democrats when they're different sides of the same coin, and holding every US citizen accountable for the various atrocities the US has committed, all the way from Latin America, to Iraq and Pakistan.

What atrocities are you talking about? Quite trying to skirt your responsibility for your countries economic problems.

 

[poisonelf]

So basically trying to blame someone else for all the problems, despite the fact Greece voted him in.

Recognizing the ties between corrupt political structures and banking cartels, acknowledging propaganda campaigns based on lies, is not "blaming someone else", it is realizing how the world around you worked. But I know there is no point going down that argument with you, I'm just saying.

What atrocities are you talking about? Quite trying to skirt your responsibility for your countries economic problems.

I realize you're half a troll and half extremely, rigidly right wing and ignoring all facts that don't agree to your view of the world. But still. Even you, do you deny that the US installed and supported brutal dictatorships in Latin America, that went to a war with Iraq under false reasons (WMDs), against a brutal dictator who also happened to be a US ally a few years ago, causing the deaths of thousands, tens of thousands of innocent people, using unmanned drones in Pakistan causing the deaths of innocents, etc, etc, etc ?

Or do you simply disagree that these are atrocities? I think the second is the most probable answer under your worldview and ethics.

 

[empty vessel]

Are you sure?

Yes, no rational person fails to understand that the George Bush administration committed the war crime of aggression under the Nuremberg principles in 2003.

If you insist on your line of argument, you should be hanged under those principles. So you might want to reconsider. It's pretty stupid to advocate for your own death sentence, to say the very least.

 

[Ember128]

poisonelf, keep us updated. Please. This is a story like no other.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Yes, no rational person fails to understand that the George Bush administration committed the war crime of aggression under the Nuremberg principles in 2003.

No there wasn't. Last time I checked he broke no laws of the United States. Just because Noam Chomsky says something or you read it on Counterpunch doesn't mean it's actually true.

If you insist on your line of argument, you should be hanged under those principles. So you might want to reconsider. It's pretty stupid to advocate for your own death sentence, to say the very least.

Only if a crime was committed, but there wasn't. So once again you are talking fiction.

poisonelf, keep us updated. Please. This is a story like no other.

It's an okay fictional piece.

 

[empty vessel]

No there wasn't. Last time I checked he broke no laws of the United States.

You seem to not understand how international law works--which, incidentally, is also US law per the constitution. Not that I would expect you to know that what with you being an American lawyer and all.

Only if a crime was committed, but there wasn't. So once again you are talking fiction.

This isn't subject to debate, so the only question is whether you really believe you should be executed for it or not.

 

[poisonelf]

It's an okay fictional piece.

I think at this point you're going too far. Are the images and videos fictional, or the various articles from cnn, wsj, times, bbc, guardian, etc?

Are you deliberately trying to ruin this thread? Some posters already called you crazy and that you ruin threads and should be on ignore, I should have listened to them.

Are you just having fun trolling and ignoring data that you don't like? What are you calling fictional?

You said your bigoted piece, either use some sort of new information with sources or stop trolling and trying to ridicule this thread.

 

[CorvoSol]

I could be wrong, but wasn't it quite a bit more than "a few years" before the Iraq war that Saddam Hussein ceased to be an American ally? Like, at least a full decade?

And then there's the question of whether a former alliance matters or not. Yesterday's ally is today's enemy and today's enemy tomorrow's ally after all. From what I've learned about international relations, animosities are longer lived than alliances.

That said, the question seems to have evolved into "to what degree should a populace be held responsible for the corruption of its elected government, and is that related to the level of corruption in its elections?" As I understand it, the leader of Iran was elected by the people. He happened to be the only one on the ballot or something effectively similar, but was elected all the same.

But I'm wandering off topic. We're supposed to be discussing Greece, not Iran or the United States here.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You seem to not understand how international law works--which, incidentally, is also US law per the constitution. Not that I would expect you to know that what with you being an American lawyer and all.

International Law cannot override the US Constitution, this is well established precedent. So once again just because Noam Chomsky says it doesn't make it true.

This isn't subject to debate, so the only question is whether you really believe you should be executed for it or not.

Yes, it is, you haven't proved anything yet. Therefore how can there be an execution?

I think at this point you're going too far. Are the images and videos fictional, or the various articles from cnn, wsj, times, bbc, guardian, etc?

It's been pointed out by others the pictures don't match the things you claim. Your "Attempted Murder" claim that fell flat for example

You said your bigoted piece, either use some sort of new information with sources or stop trolling and trying to ridicule this thread.

What have I said that is bigoted?

 

[travisbickle]

Manos, you have the world's biggest benefit scrounger in your avatar. You might want to reconsider that.

 

[Riddick]

This is getting funny, the crazy person now denies that the US government committed war crimes. Tell us more Manos, afterall you've already ruined another thread with your lunacy.

 

[poisonelf]

It's been pointed out by others the pictures don't match the things you claim. Your "Attempted Murder" claim that fell flat for example

I provided both images and videos of that incident so that anyone can judge for himself, and then very specifically said that "according to my opinion, and that of thousands others here, it was attempted murder".

So disagreeing with my interpretation which I specifically claimed to be "my opinion", does not make the actions of using chemicals against 90 year old men fictional, nor does it make the videos and images fictional.

I'm sorry you can't differentiate between providing objective data and then using subjective opinion from using fictional arguments.

Anyway, I only wanted to respond to this.

I'm taking the advice of others and ignoring you from now on, just like you ignore each and every argument or link that doesn't suit you, unless you need a specific answer to some sort of information you might provide.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This is getting funny, the crazy person now denies that the US government committed war crimes. Tell us more Manos, afterall you've already ruined another thread with your lunacy.

People keep saying war crimes, and offer no proof.

I see you doing the same thing.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I provided both images and videos of that incident so that anyone can judge for himself, and then very specifically said that "according to my opinion, and that of thousands others here, it was attempted murder".

Thousands of people also voted for Rick Santourm that doesn't meant they're right. Also last I checked thousands of people haven't posted in this thread.

So disagreeing with my interpretation which I specifically claimed to be "my opinion", does not make the actions of using chemicals against 90 year old men fictional, nor does it make the videos and images fictional.

It shows you spin them to suit your needs.

 

[Riddick]

People keep saying war crimes, and offer no proof.

I see you doing the same thing.

poisonelf has a commendable attention to detail in his posts including sources and photographic evidence and you doubt everything he has said. I'm not wasting my time with crazy people like you even with easy arguments like this. Delusions can only be stopped by trained psychotherapists.

 

[empty vessel]

People keep saying war crimes, and offer no proof.

That's because it's a settled issue, my dear. A military attack on another country without provocation is aggression, punishable by death under the Nuremberg principles. As is mistreatment of prisoners. See Abu Ghraib.

Principle VI

The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).​

(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave-labour or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war, of persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhuman acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connexion with any crime against peace or any war crime.

Principle VII

Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/full/390

This is way too simple for a lawyer to be having problems understanding. As your lawyer, I would advise you to quit advocating for your own death.

Spoiler

And you wonder why I'm critical of how the US awards the privilege of law licenses? I mean, you're a supposed lawyer and you're literally (and obliviously) advocating for your own death. You are wholly unqualified to be giving anybody else advice about anything ever.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That's because it's a settled issue, my dear. A military attack on another country without provocation is aggression, punishable by death under the Nuremberg principles.

Which US law did they break?

As is mistreatment of prisoners. See Abu Ghraib.

An isolated criminal incident by low level people who were punished for it.

This is way too simple for a lawyer to be having problems understanding. As your lawyer, I would advise you to quit advocating for your own death.

Advocating death for what?

And you wonder why I question the legitimacy of how the US awards the privilege of law licenses?

Yes, yes we've heard you say this before whenever you get mad at me, but you and I are both licensed lawyers, peers equal in respect in how the law views us.
.....
.....
.....
Look if we want to have our normal affair we should get a room/PM. This is poisonself thread (as much as I disagree with it), and not about us, so lets let him and the thead continue free from both of us going tangential. Fair enough? Because other wise we'll just continue this till doomsday like a married couple.

 

[poisonelf]

So, to get back on track and out of the crazy loop, even though I'm not at home I googled and went through my previous posts.

Here are the links about the claims I made regarding Papandreou's total fraud in order to get elected:

1: The Lefta Iparhoun videos (Money is here):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3RVWA7uLmw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyPX6PjywbI&feature=related

In Greek obviously I'm afraid. There are tens of videos making fun of that phrase at this point.
He essentially keeps claiming he knows that Greece has enough money and does not need austerity or borrowing.


The Strauss Kahn interview about how going to the IMF was pre-planned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vIsvVZl16VA

Starts at 0:43 - saying that "we worked for months before, underground. The Greek authorities didn't want the people to know, Papandreou didn't want them to know for political reasons".

Video starts with a Greek guy presenting the video, skip the first 42 seconds. Interview is in French, I can't find it with captions. I think there are quite a few French speaking people here to confirm what he's saying if needed.

Interview with Papandreou about IMF, before being elected, unfortunately in Greek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4xvmNs6AVE I

He says that "IMF goes to nations and cuts spending from important sectors,
such as education, destroying the future of the nation and condemning it to devolution. We have no reason to ever do this, it would be negative for our country."

These are 3 interesting videos with Papandreou interviews, in English:
He's claiming in each one of them, after being elected of course, that he is a proponent of global financial government and that this is what we need:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4D_QR-8ZqM&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keC4rjMmDcQ&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TFSapBTHxrU

Here he is holding a T-Shirt saying EYATH (public tap water) is not for sale, which he is now selling:

Papandreou after having received tear-gasses during a protest:

An interesting video of the incident, where this schizophrenic politician claims that "under no circumstances should a Democratic country country face social issues through the use of tear gasses", and then shows Papandreou's use of immense quantities of chemicals during the June protests:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjmsvj_giwrgos-papandreou-dakrygona-kai-mat-2009-2011_news

Regarding the fraud with Greek statistics, which is perhaps the most important piece (along with the Strauss Kahn interview), I need to be at home first to find all the sources.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

This is interesting. A lot of resentment stems from the fact that the people of Greece seem to deny any responsibilty. Well, guess what, they democratically elected the government who put them into this mess (although the massive tax-dodging didn't help )

So, what exactly do the greeks expect from the rest of the Eurozone? Do we have liberate the country by force from their evil politician oppressors? Or continue to prop up a disfunctional country? Come on now.

Of course, this whole crisis is looking more like class warfare every minute. It's also not limited to greece at all, that's just the site of this particular battle. There will be more, but that's looking at the bigger picture. Instead, most Eurozone countries focus on their bottom line; how to best escape this quagmire.

And other than being naive (some might say willfully ingnorant), the rest of the Eurozone is not at fault here. Right now, Greece is pretty much cut off completely and left to fend for themselves. The bridges are burned, the EU has nothing left to offer you guys.

Right now, Greece defaulting Argentina-style seems like best way out. If nothing else, it will fuck up everyone speculating on a Eurozone bailout. Maybe in 10 years time, the greek economy can be rebuilt.

But if you guys want to patch up stuff with the rest of the EU (not impossible, but more unlikely every day), it's probably best to start a good PR campaign now.

what is with this nonsense of the people somehow having the accountability for corrupt politicians? are you implying the people voted in them knowing they were corrupt shit heads? do you think these politicians ran on those talking points?

again, in this are Americans culpable for the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and farther monstrosities back to Cuba... Philipines... Chile... it goes on.

Do you really want to say that type of shit?

 

[poisonelf]

About yesterday's event of riot police tear gassing and hunting high schoolers protesting:

There were reports that passerbys who spoke up to defend the attacked students were also terrorized and some arrested by the riot police.

I didn't mention this because there were no images.

Here is one of the sites reporting on this:

http://www.tsantiri.gr/koinonia-kin...o-lemo-politi-pou-iperaspistike-mathites.html (Greek)

And here are some images of these events with passerbys:

There is no concrete evidence that this is exactly how events transpired, but based on my experience of how Greek riot police are acting at this point I have no reason to doubt it.

As far as I could find out, checking for myself, cross-checking with others, and reading on blogs, Greek mainstream media up to yesterday afternoon wholly ignored the entire incident. For anyone watching Greek TV, this has not happened (meaning everything, from the protest itself, to the hooded students throwing rocks, to the police attacking, to the arrests, to everything).

Today there is a student protest programmed again, at 17:00 here (gmt+2 time).

 

[Facism]

Wow the dickhead grabbed him by the throat. Always a sure sign of a coward and bully where i'm from.

 

[Tideas]

Thank you to anyone supporting this struggle we're suddenly in. Actually, that's what Greece needs now. Support and awareness of the real situation.

The central issue of the mega-post I'm trying to create about the Greek situation is actually this, the incredible difference between reality and media representation of it and skewing of public opinion.



That would need a behemoth of a reply, which I'm trying to create as an article.

To be grossly brief, our government is not elected but imposed and led by a banker, the corruption of all politicians is to ridiculous extremes, and TROIKA measures as well EU leaders' behavior is humiliating and cause a humanitarian crisis here.

So, again ridiculously briefly, what we want is for the thieves and traitors to pay, to have their assets confiscated, to go to international law and erase the illegal part of our debt (which is what the EU banks tremble about happening and why they are substituting our debt with new IMF and ECT debt), hold elections with a rational system, oust the current German commissioners stationed here as overseers, lower the immense, murderous taxation (yeah I know, you've heard the exact opposite), reclaim our sovereignty, save our national assets from seizure which the TROIKA memorandum allows, provide for the poor and homeless, reform the public sector, and work towards development.

I might be forgetting some (a lot), but that really is a different, much larger thread that needs to be made.

and you want to do this with WHOSe money? Cuz Greece does not have any right now

 

[poisonelf]

and you want to do this with WHOSe money? Cuz Greece does not have any right now

Do what?
Did you read what you quoted me saying, or did you just quote it? Everything I said saves money, except for the care for the homeless part which only requires an insignificant drop next to the rest.

Defaulting on illegal parts of debt saves money. Confiscating assets of those who committed fraud or even treason here saves money, quite a few billions actually. Restructuring the public sector to be logical saves money.
And yes, as I said that was super brief, I forgot many important details such as taxing the church and bank hyper profits that were put in off shore accounts, severely cutting down on the military spending that is mostly forced upon Grrece.

Even more, let me say again, out of 190 Billion that is the budget for 2012, 120 Billion are going to pay off loans, interest rates, and to bailout banks. 19 are for salaries and pensions.

Anyway, this needs another mega post.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Wow the dickhead grabbed him by the throat. Always a sure sign of a coward and bully where i'm from.

for sure. that's definitely not standard procedure 'keeping the peace' tactics, that's 'get back in your place, kerl!'

 

[poisonelf]

So... things are moving fast. There are many calls for action and protests this weekend.

A new organization called "X" seems to have formed in Ioanina, a city here. They are targeting offices of parliament members, spraying huge 'Xs' and 'Traitors' over the doors and walls.

Here is the news bit, in Greek, from a local publication: http://www.pamepreveza.gr/News/AllArticles/tabid/142/articleId/42295/Default.aspx

They even published a declaration, I'll attempt to translate:

"COMPLAINT BY DESPERATE AND ENRAGED GIANIOTES (locals of Ioanina, Greek city)

To the "patriotic" parliament members of Ioanina municipality

Traitors we are sick of you! Yes we are sick of you, ALL of you voting 'yes to all', yes to poverty and enslavement: PASOK-ND-LAOS-DORA (Greek political parties) and that evil clique. You will find us against you !!!
And you, forces of the left, SYRIZA -KKE,
WHY AREN'T YOU REACTING?
FOR ONCE TRULY AND RADICALLY???!!! When you can by quitting en masse to dismember the parliament and lead us to elections YOU ARE NOT DOING IT !!!
Some of us who are sending this message to the public are jobless and young, others have loans strangling us, some have many children and can't afford milk for our children, some are pensioners whose right to lead the final years with dignity is taken away.
You are destroying our life daily! You are flaying our dreams!
We are ashamed that you pass for Greeks and pretend to care for saving Greece!
You will not perform our funeral, we will bury you first.
(here there are some quotes about valor and wisdom from ancient Greek I can't translate correctly now)
Greeks are not for sale. NOT FOR SALE!!!

PS. You may clean the signs in your office that we 'dirtied', but the dirt HEAVY ON YOUR NAMES WILL NOT LEAVE no matter how much you try. You need de-contamination of your souls!!!

We belong to no political party or movement. We belong to ourselves and our country"

And some think I'm being sensationalist.. the irony is I don't even dare convey the true feelings and attitudes pervading Greek society now because many will say I'm exaggerating and being crazy.

There are tens of similar actions taking place throughout Greece, including student protests and taking over of schools in Crete.

 

[Sealda]

Seems like Greece is heading for a revolution or civil war. What people in Berlin and Brussels do not understand is that it does not that make much for the people to overturn the government, especially when it is located in the middle of Europe.

The European Council and the rest of the EU elite seems completely oblivious to how fragile building is. I feel that they are using the system to its limit, fact is, once the people overturn the government, they would be completely powerless in Greece and completely lost control of the ship. The bubble is going to burst if they do not slow down the pressure on the greek people. I am not saying i think anyone of them are right but i am just saying that the greek people will soon have enough and then EU will have no control anymore.


The best part about this is how EU elite are now starting to beg that Kosovo should join the union. Delusional...

 

[Reuenthal]

Greece defaulting would be rather obviously catastrophic.

Austerity alone can't solve issues even if it is somewhat necessary for some previous corruption and systemic economic problems and backwards laws to change. And for income to be more than expenses. The thing is, that the economy should also experience growth and recovery and that is hard to happen while austerity and more austerity happens. Greece is between Scylla and Charybdis but defaulting and exiting the euro is the worst choice for both Greece and the European Union.

However Greece alone can't through measures and changes solve this issue and if Greece GDP is just 2% of the European one, other countries including Spain, Italy problems have to do with even more money. I really think that EU response to this crices was too slow and inappropriate one and even now something more needs to be done. Maybe Eurobonds from the ECB might be the solution I don't really know, but European leaders must do more than they are doing. Of course that doesn't mean that Greece and other countries should not proceed with structural changes and measures but those alone are probably not sufficient.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

It's been pointed out by others the pictures don't match the things you claim.

I hope you're not using my nitpick of one video as basis for that claim. That was one video out of a long list of videos and pictures that needed close inspection to determine that it didn't quite match up with his description. While I haven't inspected the other media he's posted in this thread, in previous threads, I've found that his descriptions are, on balance, trustworthy.

I provided both images and videos of that incident so that anyone can judge for himself, and then very specifically said that "according to my opinion, and that of thousands others here, it was attempted murder".

An opinion that is objectively wrong and articulated in a way calculated to incite.

The bottom line for me is that a legitimate, recognized, democratically elected, but corrupt, Greek government ran up an unsustainable debt. Since the creditors won't give the government realistic terms to pay it back, the Greek people need to dismantle the old government and form a new one. These are the birthing pains of that new government. Stay strong poisonelf. Don't take my nitpicks too personally, exaggerations and misrepresentations on both sides are part of the process of revolution. People won't make the changes they need to without an impetus. Just don't be surprised when someone calls you out on them (just as I won't be surprised when you react with indignation.)

 

[Tideas]

Do what?
Did you read what you quoted me saying, or did you just quote it? Everything I said saves money, except for the care for the homeless part which only requires an insignificant drop next to the rest.

Defaulting on illegal parts of debt saves money. Confiscating assets of those who committed fraud or even treason here saves money, quite a few billions actually. Restructuring the public sector to be logical saves money.
And yes, as I said that was super brief, I forgot many important details such as taxing the church and bank hyper profits that were put in off shore accounts, severely cutting down on the military spending that is mostly forced upon Grrece.

Even more, let me say again, out of 190 Billion that is the budget for 2012, 120 Billion are going to pay off loans, interest rates, and to bailout banks. 19 are for salaries and pensions.

Anyway, this needs another mega post.

that's the thing. you guys aren't generating any money are you? Or are you saying, if you default now, the country will be generating enough money through income tax to continue operating as a country?

 

[alstein]

Is there any sort of chance that Greece goes outright communist over this?

 

[Gallbaro]

Is there any sort of chance that Greece goes outright communist over this?

Whose gonna lend them the money?

 

[poisonelf]

Guys, (latest 2-3 responses), you really really don't understand what's going on economics-wise.

You really think Greece's external debt was that much greater than that of other countries before the IMF and the EU involvement?

You really think supporting national budget on loaning is a "Greek anomaly"?

Do you even think that Greece has the largest debt in the EU if you take into account the private sector?

Stop confusing the notion of a bankrupt company to that of a defaulting nation. It's a country not a company... of course we produce money.
Largest trade fleet in the world (Japan I think is #2), huge tourism industry, and banking and telecommunication investments throughout the Balkans, come to mind, but that's only part of the total potential.

This all thing had to do mainly with an artificially inflated deficit (there is a trial starting here about that) and "loss of confidence" of the 'holy markets' towards Greece.

Sorry, I'll get to that mega-post at some point, I really appreciate the interest for my country and the willingness by most to try and make sense of what is happening here. I'll find the time soon I hope.

 

[James]

Hey poisonelf, I just wanted to say that I, and many others here really appreciate all the good info and research your giving us about what is going on in Greece. I never learned this info anywhere in the mainstream news media, so I applaud the effort.

I have a few questions though. How wide-spread is popular resentment against the current government? Is it localized with just those facing poverty, or is it ubiquitous throughout the population? Even if people resent the government, is there still any popular sentiment that the reforms are a necessary evil to save the country?

For instance, if elections were held in Greece tomorrow, would parties supporting the austerity be thrown out? Is there a legitimate political force against the austerity that would win elections? Or are do they all basically go along with the status quo behind the scenes?

Lastly, do you think people are motivated enough to revolt and bring down the Greek government?

A lot of questions lol. But thanks again.

 

[empty vessel]

Greece defaulting would be rather obviously catastrophic.

For actual Greek people, it will by far be the least catastrophic of the options available. But it doesn't actually have to default as long as it leaves the Eurozone and once again becomes a sovereign currency issuer. It can then pay off its debts in its new currency. It won't be painless by any means, but the government can at least immediately begin the business of restoring its economy instead of continuing to sabotage it for the benefit of non-Greek financial elites. In other words, the Greek government can be run with the Greek people in mind for a change.

At core is the need for the Greek people to reclaim their government for themselves. Hence the current political activity.

Is there any sort of chance that Greece goes outright communist over this?

I don't see why it would.

Whose gonna lend them the money?

(1) I don't see what relevance that has to the question to which you responded.
(2) Why would the Greek government need to borrow money? Assuming it leaves the EU, it doesn't need to borrow anything.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Is there any sort of chance that Greece goes outright communist over this?

I wonder what the implications would be if there was an actual revolution in Greece regarding the status of the country within the EU. Does the EU even have any ideas or plans for such a scenario? Would the Greece people still be considered EU citizens and free to travel in Europe. Would the EU countries intervene militarely if a communist dictatorship was to emerge etc.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Sorry, I'll get to that mega-post at some point, I really appreciate the interest for my country and the willingness by most to try and make sense of what is happening here. I'll find the time soon I hope.

Keep it up mate, looking forward to it. Everybody should be interested in Greece, the micro to our macro.

Do you read nakedcapitalism.com? I think you'll find a lot of salient commentary over there (if a bit wonky at times), in regards to Greece as well as the macro.

some recent posts-
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02/austerity-policy-destroying-greek-society.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02/wolf-richter-francois-hollande-versus-the-german-dictate.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02/greece-is-out-of-time-again.html

 

[Reuenthal]

For actual Greek people, it will by far be the least catastrophic of the options available. But it doesn't actually have to default as long as it leaves the Eurozone and once again becomes a sovereign currency issuer. It can then pay off its debts in its new currency. It won't be painless by any means, but the government can at least immediately begin the business of restoring its economy instead of continuing to sabotage it for the benefit of non-Greek financial elites. In other words, the Greek government can be run with the Greek people in mind for a change.

At core is the need for the Greek people to reclaim their government for themselves. Hence the current political activity.



I don't see why it would.



(1) I don't see what relevance that has to the question to which you responded.
(2) Why would the Greek government need to borrow money? Assuming it leaves the EU, it doesn't need to borrow anything.

For actual Greek people a default and exit for the Eurozone would be an obvious catastrophe. If currently things are bad, the default, exit from eurozone Greece would be in a very worse condition.

One entails the other. Greece owes money that it can not pay. The IMF programs and Eurozone is what stops Greece from defaulting.

Defaulting and leaving the Eurozone means: government can't pay for services, wages, anything really because it doesn't have the money and now nobody trusts Greece to lend it the money.

Hyperinflation will also happen with the value of the new currency being much lower than the euro's and everyone in Greece money being worth less and becoming poorer. You would need a shitload of new currency money to buy necessary food and supplies.


Greece will be unable to buy basic necessities like oil as the markets will not trust Greece's new currency which wouldn't be worth much. Also note that nobody would be willing to loan Greece money.

The Banking system in Greece (but not only Greece) would collapse which would effectively seriously fuck Greece market economy and the people.

Wages will be very significantly lowered. Extremely lowered.

Corporations will leave Greece and Greeks will want to leave Greece more than ever before.

Large consequences for other Eurozone members.

Very likely a lot of violence due to how shitty the situation will become.

People will die of hunger and things will become extremely shitty if Greece exits the eurozone and defaults. And Eurozone and other European countries situation would also significantly worsen. It is basically worse case nightmare scenario.

 

[empty vessel]

For actual Greek people a default and exit for the Eurozone would be an obvious catastrophe. If currently things are bad, the default, exit from eurozone Greece would be in a very, very, very worse condition.

One entails the other. Greece owes money that it can not pay. The IMF programs and Eurozone is what stops Greece from defaulting.

In the Eurozone, Greece has to pay its debts with a currency over which it has no control (and therefore has to borrow). With its own currency, its debt problem disappears. The IMF and Eurozone aren't stopping Greece from default. They are bailing out investors who made (apparently) poor investment decisions.

Defaulting and leaving the Eurozone means: government can't pay for services, wages, anything really because it doesn't have the money and now nobody trusts Greece to lend it the money.

Greece would not be using Euros if it left the Eurozone. It would be using its own money, and hence would have an unlimited supply of it. It would not need to borrow anything.

Hyperinflation will also happen with the value of the new currency being much lower than the euro's and everyone in Greece money being worth less and becoming poorer. You would need a shitload of new currency money to buy necessary food and supplies.

Inflation would be a risk to guard against, but hyperinflation would be unlikely to occur. Bill Mitchell explains why:

It is clear that the Greek government would have to default on its Euro-denominated obligations which in the language being used in financial markets would prompt a “credit event”. There is a fear that there are very large CDS payouts linked to such an event but they would not be Greece’s problems and central banks in other nations including the ECB could deal with those .....

It is often claimed that there would be drawn out contract litigation as a result of the default on euro-denominated contracts. As the Citigroup analysis [subscription required to access report] suggests, this could be overcome by the Greek government passing “a currency law” which would:

… stipulate one or more conversion rates between the old and the new Greek currency (which we will call the ‘New Drachma&#8217…​

Besides one or more rate(s) of conversion, the currency law would likely also specify that the new currency is legal tender for payment and settlement of debt in the ‘relevant country’, i.e. Greece, including for the payment of public and private debt obligations (including bank loans, deposits, and securities) and other contracts, including wage and pension contracts.

Short of a military takeover of the country, a sovereign Greek nation could defy all claims against it outside of the conditions that it sets in terms of its own currency.

The Greek government could defy the rest of the world completely (as in the early days of the Argentinean default) or offer re-denomination in terms of the new currency. Once re-domination was accepted then its so-called “sovereign debt” problem vanishes. It becomes a sovereign currency-issuing nation with debts only denominated in its own currency – which means it could always service those debts.

Should the bond markets decide that they do not want to invest in Greek currency financial assets then the Greek central bank – newly legislated to support the national interest – could provide funding to the Greek treasury without any fundamental financial problems.

You will not read of this sort of analysis in the general media because while possible it represents the anathema to the neo-liberals. They would hate it to be understood that a nation had these options available to them.

Its new currency would depreciate – by how much is anyone’s guess. The likelihood is that the depreciation would be sharp and large. But its downward spiral would be finite and reversed as trade flows turned in favour of exports and the real cost of imports rose.

While the Greeks do not have large quantities of natural resources like Argentina did when it defaulted and floated in 2001-02 it still has very desirable assets that are exchange rate sensitive – its tourism capacity. I predict that there would be a boom in that sector virtually immediately and investment funds would flow into it.

The change in the current account would put a floor into the currency fall.

But in the meantime there would be a risk of inflation coming through the current account – as import prices rose in domestic-currency terms. As the currency appreciated again (as the Germans flooded into the sunny Greek islands to escape the Berlin winter) the inflation risk would be attenuated.

The Greek government would be advised to “discount” cost of living adjustments in their pension and wages system in this context. The exchange rate will not fall for very long – it would be a sharp, once-off adjustment.

This means that there is a real income loss to the nation (via the higher import prices) and that must be borne. Attempting to adjust nominal returns within the nation for these losses would create the danger of an inflationary spiral.

But as long as real productive capacity can be brought into use via public spending the danger of hyperinflation is low in these circumstances.​

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=18172

The rest of your post concerns scenarios exceedingly unlikely to occur (bordering on preposterous) in the event of a Greek exit of the Eurozone. Which, incidentally, the Citibank analysis put the chances of happening at 50%.

There is little real danger in default because, ultimately, the Greek State is more powerful than its investors. (It has its own military!) We already have empirical evidence that default can occur without serious repercussions (Argentina). But that default can occur without significant consequence is a message that the economically powerful do not want to get out, because it makes it harder for them to avoid losses from their bad decisions, which is all the current mess is really about.