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[mordecaii83]

I saw someone mention that the Windows Store version of RoTR breaks Freesync, does Gsync work or are they both broken?

 

[Ushay]

I don't trust microsoft after gfwl and i don't want to support them either after the troubles i had with their service which was from the first to the last day a mess for some of my games. Quantum Break seems like something i might enjoy but i am fine with waiting a few years to see how the windows store evolves and how it affects gaming before i buy a game from them.

A wise decision if you are skeptical and disillusioned about GFWL. Far cry from the dummy spitting from both sides happening in this thread.

 

[Echoplx]

Yeah, dll injection is definitely off limits, though I don't think you need in order to have the same functionality in a secure environment.

It's kinda of wishful thinking I agree, but you don't need to have every single game developer adding support for it.

An hypothetical scenario:

- Nvidia launch a UWP Game Works api, the main difference from the current one is that it exposes the rendering states so other apps could interact with it.
- Along side the api they launch an app on the store which checks for conflicts and that app supports plugins, so you can download plugins like: unlimit fps, unlock resolution, framerate analysis and so on.
- They work with the major middleware providers and integrate that on UE4, Cry engine, Unity and others.

It's still not the same on having guaranteed support on every game even if the developer not support it directly, but it would require way less effort for people actually making the games which makes it more feasible.

The question is why do all of this fucking shit when things work fine the way they are?

 

[JebaćBiedę]

So I won't be able to lock it at 30fps?

 

[mcrommert]

I saw someone mention that the Windows Store version of RoTR breaks Freesync, does Gsync work or are they both broken?

Both broken right now as game forces vsync ( double or triple)

Have no idea why as gigantic also a uwa game does not

 

[Nzyme32]

But it hasn't changed so I'm not sure what you mean? If anything it's more popular then it's ever been.

It has changed since 2009. The alpha included a host of changes and the same occurred in later updates - point being, there is a place for iterative design and not being forced to release a complete static product, contrary to the previous posters remarks of "broken games"

 

[Hey_Blinkin]

I made the mistake of purchasing Tomb Raider on the Windows Store and learned my lesson. There are too many great tools and mods for games these days for me to spend money on a locked down "app".

 

[DieH@rd]

So I won't be able to lock it at 30fps?

 

[Echoplx]

I came to the same conclusion. No point in arguing with people who quote durante's speculations as fact without understanding the actual restrictions of the proposed format.
And there is no point in arguing with durante's gloom and doom predictions. Apparently PC gaming is going to die yet again.
Anyway, I think that my opinion on the matter is clear by now.

I'm nominating you for shitposter of the year.

 

[gamz]

It has changed since 2009. The alpha included a host of changes and the same occurred in later updates - point being, there is a place for iterative design and not being forced to release a complete static product, contrary to the previous posters remarks of "broken games"

I'm saying what has changed since MS bought them. There's still modders and the game remains the same.

 

[LukasTaves]

The question is why do all of this fucking shit when things work fine the way they are?

Well, it's not like all the current tools and methods of moding the games just popped into existence. People had to develop them and they did as the apis evolved in a manner that allowed that.

If the store finds success people will find reasons to extend and support it.

 

[Ushay]

The question is why do all of this fucking shit when things work fine the way they are?

Enthusiasts want fine grain control over certain settings for games such as gsync etc I know because I used to have tools like Rivatuner running alongside my games. It's a minor annoyance, one I quickly moved away from in favour of console gaming.

I suppose most of us are content with streamlined functionality and gaming, as opposed to modding, manipulating file data and having control over applications. I personally didn't have the time for it.

 

[gamz]

I made the mistake of purchasing Tomb Raider on the Windows Store and learned my lesson. There are too many great tools and mods for games these days for me to spend money on a locked down "app".

Just curious. So you are strictly a PC gamer. No Xbox or Playstation or anything else?

 

[Salty Hippo]

I really, really doubt Spencer is anywhere near high up enough to change stuff about UWA's.

It's one of the pillars of MS's current strategy.

If it gets changed, that one of the best news for PC in general (not just gaming) in a long while.

But what exactly stops MS from creating some kind of client or storefront that is easily accessible from within the Windows Store and that is dedicated to games only like Steam, with the features people want? Spencer is in charge of all Microsoft gaming, if anyone can make the decision to make hardcore games not work like UWAs, it's him. Microsoft doesn't need to release their Xbox games on PC as UWAs. The point of doing that would be to make these games easily visible to casuals, I guess? But if they can make a client that is well integrated to the store and easily acessible, they can achieve the same thing. There's no reason to piss off hardcore PC gamers and they know that. They have to know. That's why I'll wait for the event, which is just around the corner, before being outraged. Again, I'll be very surprised if they don't have some kind of solution for such an obvious issue.

What Greenberg said on the interview was that it would be a Windows Store exclusive, but I see people in this thread saying he expressely said it would be a UWA. He didn't.

 

[Nzyme32]

I'm saying what has changed since MS bought them. There's still modders and the game remains the same.

Nothing, that isnt what we were discussing. Did you not read the post I am commenting about? The idea of UWA being the standard in the past would have meant the things I listed. It's purely hypothetical. With UWA restrictions, iterative design, modification and the innovations that come with what communities build on top of existing games, would not exist. Hence my mention of esports and mobas amongst other things

 

[gamz]

Nothing, that isnt what we were discussing. Did you not read the post I am commenting about? The idea of UWA being the standard in the past would have meant the things I listed. It's purely hypothetical. With UWA restrictions, iterative design, modification and the innovations that come with what communities build on top of existing games, would not exist. Hence my mention of esports and mobas amongst other things

Gotcha! Sorry man I didn't know where you were going with it.

 

[holygeesus]

Isn't this a case of MS trying to nudge PC gaming more into the mainstream? Your average Joe who buys a pre-built all-in-one just wants to fire up and play away, without tweaking in a traditional PC gaming sense. From a technical point of view, does providing games as 'apps' make them more simple, in terms of configuration, and what might go wrong? i.e. are they taking this locked down approach to make it more likely to 'work out of the box'?

In the case of QB I can't see Remedy messing up enough to make community modding a necessity, and as long as it's only the occasional big MS funded title that is made exclusive, then I can live with that. I'd rather see it in this way, as a souped up console game, than not have it on PC at all I guess.

 

[Echoplx]

Well, it's not like all the current tools and methods of moding the games just popped into existence. People had to develop them and they did as the apis evolved in a manner that allowed that.

If the store finds success people will find reasons to extend and support it.

So now we have to wait for Microsoft to allow us to mod things into games which we've already been modding into games for years? Sounds great.

 

[Nzyme32]

Gotcha! Sorry man I didn't know where you were going with it.

It's cool. I should have explained it better in the first place

 

[aeolist]

hopefully they'll let remedy self-publish after a year or two and it comes out on steam

i'll wait, no way am i buying into another microsoft pc initiative

 

[JaggedSac]

I guess one benefit to this locked down stuff is that the online experience might be less susceptible to tom foolery. There is a level of hell reserved specifically for those people, lol.

 

[Mivey]

Here's an idea: Maybe the Windows people could just add a special category for their own games that allow them to deployed like normal Win32 apps? It's your own stuff, all those stupid security arguments fall moot anyway when the actual OS developer cannot be trusted to properly use Win32.
At any rate, the Windows Store should support Win32 apps if it wants to be actually useful for normal users.
A proper software store that works like the Gnome Software is something Windows could really use.

 

[mordecaii83]

Both broken right now as game forces vsync ( double or triple)

Have no idea why as gigantic also a uwa game does not

That's good to know, I almost bought the game when I found out about the cheap foreign store pricing.

Any game that breaks Gsync and won't allow injection may as well not even exist for me, I refuse to buy it. Hopefully things change and these issues go away, but until they do I'll be ignoring the Windows Store.

 

[LukasTaves]

So now we have to wait for Microsoft to allow us to mod things into games which we've already been modding into games for years? Sounds great.

I meant that as the apis improve people will use them to do more, not in the sense that we have to wait for Ms' goodwill into enabling the api to make the scenario I described possible.

Though, it's a new platform, nobody expects it to supersede the current one in a year or so. It's more of a matter of how much they can improve it on a very short time.

 

[Sydle]

But what exactly stops MS from creating some kind of client or storefront that is easily accessible from within the Windows Store and that is dedicated to games only like Steam, with the features people want? Spencer is in charge of all Microsoft gaming, if anyone can make the decision to make hardcore games not work like UWAs, it's him. Microsoft doesn't need to release their Xbox games on PC as UWAs. The point of doing that would be to make these games easily visible to casuals, I guess? But if they can make a client that is well integrated to the store and easily acessible, they can achieve the same thing. There's no reason to piss off hardcore PC gamers and they know that. They have to know. That's why I'll wait for the event, which is just around the corner, before being outraged. Again, I'll be very surprised if they don't have some kind of solution for such an obvious issue.

What Greenberg said on the interview was that it would be a Windows Store exclusive, but I see people in this thread saying he expressely said it would be a UWA. He didn't.

I think all software on Windows Store are published as UWA though.

 

[aeolist]

But what exactly stops MS from creating some kind of client or storefront that is easily accessible from within the Windows Store and that is dedicated to games only like Steam, with the features people want?

microsoft doesn't care about the audience that wants DLL injection, modding, and adaptive sync for their $800 monitors. they want the audience that thinks everything is an app they click install on and play. they've been after this since windows 8 launched, and this renewed push for PC games is simply the latest effort to make the PC more like a phone or tablet.

 

[Salty Hippo]

I think all software on Windows Store are published as UWA though.

It's inherent to how the store works and can't exist any exceptions? Legit question, I'm not familiar with it.

 

[LukasTaves]

But what exactly stops MS from creating some kind of client or storefront that is easily accessible from within the Windows Store and that is dedicated to games only like Steam, with the features people want? Spencer is in charge of all Microsoft gaming, if anyone can make the decision to make hardcore games not work like UWAs, it's him. Microsoft doesn't need to release their Xbox games on PC as UWAs. The point of doing that would be to make these games easily visible to casuals, I guess? But if they can make a client that is well integrated to the store and easily acessible, they can achieve the same thing. There's no reason to piss off hardcore PC gamers and they know that. They have to know. That's why I'll wait for the event, which is just around the corner, before being outraged. Again, I'll be very surprised if they don't have some kind of solution for such an obvious issue.

What Greenberg said on the interview was that it would be a Windows Store exclusive, but I see people in this thread saying he expressely said it would be a UWA. He didn't.

They won't do that because they want games as uwa so they are universal.

Currently you can build a single game that can be deployed and able to run on pc, tablets, phones, xbox, and hololens. That's the point of going universal, and imo, a much bigger deal than being able to mod said games, specially for developers, but even as a gamer.

It's a long term bet for sure, but making store game pure win32 games goes against that future.

 

[JaggedSac]

It's inherent to how the store works and can't exist any exceptions? Legit question, I'm not familiar with it.

Yes.

 

[Atraveller]

they want the audience that thinks everything is an app they click install on and play

But most clients can already do that!

 

[potatohead]

I can't see this being a big issue

Hahahaha, good one.

 

[aeolist]

But most clients can already do that!

not on ios, and ultimately they want an ios level of control over their platform

people who like having, say, granular filesystem access do not matter at all to microsoft on the consumer side. on the enterprise side they're stuck providing those things but they don't matter for gaming.

 

[LukasTaves]

It's inherent to how the store works and can't exist any exceptions? Legit question, I'm not familiar with it.

Yes and no, there are non uwas on the store but they are still winRT apps (which were even more restrictive).

The store do have a bridge for receiving win32 apps, but they run in a virtual environment that tricks it as having full access to the os, though some things are not yet supported like shell integration (But they said their goal was to bring the features to uwa that would be able to port pretty much all but security applications to the new app platform)

 

[Salty Hippo]

microsoft doesn't care about the audience that wants DLL injection, modding, and adaptive sync for their $800 monitors. they want the audience that thinks everything is an app they click install on and play. they've been after this since windows 8 launched, and this renewed push for PC games is simply the latest effort to make the PC more like a phone or tablet.

What makes you think that their gaming push has to be equal to their app push? This reads like crazy ass conjecture to be honest. You're talking about a sizeable audience that buys games on PC religiously. MS knows that. Why would they simply ignore those gamers? They have no reason to.

Edit: Apparently I'm wrong, MS really is run by lunatics if that's the case.

 

[Atraveller]

not on ios, and ultimately they want an ios level of control over their platform

people who like having, say, granular filesystem access do not matter at all to microsoft on the consumer side. on the enterprise side they're stuck providing those things but they don't matter for gaming.

What I meant was, clients like Steam are already very easy to use, Steam is also just "click install and play", this is a bad excuse for MS.

 

[JaggedSac]

not on ios, and ultimately they want an ios level of control over their platform

people who like having, say, granular filesystem access do not matter at all to microsoft on the consumer side. on the enterprise side they're stuck providing those things but they don't matter for gaming.

UWP allows for granular file system access to applications. Or are you just referring to the installation?

Yes and no, there are non uwas on the store but they are still winRT apps (which were even more restrictive).

The store do have a bridge for receiving win32 apps, but they run in a virtual environment that tricks it as having full access to the os, though some things are not yet supported like shell integration (But they said their goal was to bring the features to uwa that would be able to port pretty much all but security applications to the new app platform)

Technically, I think all Win8.1 apps were converted to the UWP on the server side. I think I recall reading that at least.

 

[aeolist]

What makes you think that their gaming push has to be equal to their app push? This reads like crazy ass conjecture to be honest. You're talking about a sizeable audience that buys games on PC religiously. MS knows that. Why would they simply ignore those gamers? They have no reason to.

if it's coming through the windows store, it's UWA with all of the limitations that implies.

they simply cannot appeal to the pc market that likes to tinker with their software. what they're betting on is that enough of the market will give up that kind of access to get games they want.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

While plenty have stories of game installs or uninstalls messing up their computer...in this environment it will never happen again.

On the other hand, one system error can completely fuck up the entire app environment. Ever since I started using Windows 10 I already had few situation where a bad system update or whatever broke my system and I couldn't download nor update anything from the Windows Store (the infamous Windows Store 0x80070003 error) and/or few apps stopped working completely (they would close on loading screen). To fix that I had to either mess with Windows PowerShell or reinstall the system (or wait for the major update, thankfully I'm on the Fast Ring so they come once a month or two).

So no, Microsoft's Windows Store and the overall app sandbox isn't that perfect and error free.

 

[Qassim]

I mean, it can be repeated 1000 times, but if it doesn't make sense, why repeat it? Basically what I am hearing is if you are a PC elitist you don't like it because x,y,z. For the other 95%of the world it doesn't make sense.

Sorry, but when every other delivery method on the PC doesn't impose these silly restrictions it's not elitism. Cut that shit out. For the audience buying high end AAA PC games (look at the min - recommended - ultra requirements for QB), it matters, a lot. I'm sorry you're willing to drastically lower the standards we're used to.

 

[holygeesus]

What I meant was, clients like Steam are already very easy to use, Steam is also just "click install and play", this is a bad excuse for MS.

If you are tying people to one operating system, it makes it even more simple to lock down though. They can even stop people without the minimum specs from buying the game. They control every aspect of trouble shooting the thing.

 

[Dinky Dino]

microsoft doesn't care about the audience that wants DLL injection, modding, and adaptive sync for their $800 monitors. they want the audience that thinks everything is an app they click install on and play. they've been after this since windows 8 launched, and this renewed push for PC games is simply the latest effort to make the PC more like a phone or tablet.

That's gonna backfire. If there's one thing the pc community is loud about, it's the small tweaks they do for their games.

The huge advantage of this is that it should technically reduce hackers correct? That is quite the trade off if it's true one very worthy.

But MS need's to do 2 more things to put most people at rest.

1. Let people overlay it with stuff like fraps or rivatuner so people can see their framerates, usage, temps, etc this is big we all know pc users are adamant on framerates and hardware statistics to see how well games push hardware.

2. Allow reshade/mediator to function across all games. This provides so many settings that makes games look better ESPECIALLY SMAA which I simply can't do without given how most devs that don't include it and shove the cruddy FXAA in the game. In addition to bloom, HDR, debanding, and dozens other options.

With those two out of the way, you're pretty set. If they do not do this, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

EDIT: Oh and I stupidly forgot to mention the vital tweaks some people make for games like dark souls 1 that kind of salvaged/saved it on the pc. Devs won't ever stop releasing cruddy ports so yea this isn't a good thing now that I think about it. Why would you even need to do this on single player games anyways?

Denuvo seems to allow more freedom/functionality than these universal apps and is already an effective anti piracy method.

 

[aeolist]

UWP allows for granular file system access to applications. Or are you just referring to the installation?

i mean users having access to app install folders and being able to copy/edit/delete files in them

googling isn't coming up with anything relevant but i thought access to that was restricted still

 

[SPDIF]

On the other hand, one system error can completely fuck up the entire app environment. Ever since I started using Windows 10 I already had few situation where a bad system update or whatever broke my system and I couldn't download nor update anything from the Windows Store (the infamous Windows Store 0x80070003 error) and/or few apps stopped working completely (they would close on loading screen). To fix that I had to either mess with Windows PowerShell or reinstall the system (or wait for the major update, thankfully I'm on the Fast Ring so they come once a month or two).

So no, Microsoft's Windows Store and the overall app sandbox isn't that perfect and error free.

So you're using pre-release software? You can't really complain about errors breaking your system then can you. It's one of the risks you take on the Fast Ring.

 

[aeolist]

So you're using pre-release software? You can't really complain about errors breaking your system then can you. It's one of the risks you take on the Fast Ring.

i've been running deployments of hundreds of windows 8/8.1 convertible tablets for the last 3 years and i can tell you that the windows store and apps breaking themselves completely is not uncommon at all

 

[Tizoc]

For some reason this video reminded me of this thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrrDeDnjLyM

 

[Atraveller]

If you are tying people to one operating system, it makes it even more simple to lock down though. They can even stop people without the minimum specs from buying the game. They control every aspect of trouble shooting the thing.

People could only purchase games when they are sitting at their gaming PCs? That doesn't sound like a customer friendly idea. No matter MS tries to "lock down", games would always be ran on a variety of computers with different hardware combinations, and with MS's track record of GFWL, I don't trust MS's trouble shooting.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

So you're using pre-release software? You can't really complain about errors breaking your system then can you. It's one of the risks you take on the Fast Ring.

I saw that stuff happening on stable releases too (both Windows 10 and Windows 8) so it's not exclusive to the fast ring releases. I'm just lucky that due to being subscribed to the fast ring the system "forces" me to reinstall it every month anyway.

I mean, it can be repeated 1000 times, but if it doesn't make sense, why repeat it? Basically what I am hearing is if you are a PC elitist you don't like it because x,y,z. For the other 95%of the world it doesn't make sense.

"PC elitist"
You know what made The Sims huge back in the day? You know, the game played not by "PC elitist", basement-dwellers and no-lifes who spent their days picking up the right driver just to gain one more fps but mostly by casual players? User created stuff. Lots of user created stuff. And the tools provided by Maxis back then were nothing when compared to the stuff users created: from custom 3D models and textures, to new animations, objects, game logic modifications.

Even today, with The Sims 4 released, the content you can find online often puts to shame what's in the base game. So no, you don't need to be a PC elitist to see the advantages of users being able to mod games.

People could only purchase games when they are sitting at their gaming PCs? That doesn't sound like a customer friendly idea. No matter MS tries to "lock down", games would always be ran on a variety of computers with different hardware combinations, and with MS's track record of GFWL, I don't trust MS's trouble shooting.

Google already does that with the Play Store. When none of devices connected to your account meet app's minimum requirements, you can't buy the app.

 

[grandwizard]

Not buying it then. I have no issue buying games on non-Steam storefronts like uPlay, gog, and Origin, but I'm not buying any full price game on a Microsoft PC store after their history with GFWL which has probably done the most harm to PC gaming and it's legacy than anything.

To give an example on how incredibly low the bar has been set for them, here is a quote from Htown from the last thread:

Can I just point out here that in this thread the most liked post was Stumpokapow's, in which he stated he "would trust some third-tier service like Greenhouse Games over GFW."

Greenhouse Games was most notable for the first two Penny Arcade games. They closed down upwards of five years ago. Even their defunct website still allows you to download the games you owned, even though you still need your product key. So yes, a third-tier service like Greenhouse Games has turned out to be slightly more reliable than Games For Windows.

Congratulations, Microsoft.

Honestly anyone who buys a full price game on a Microsoft PC store these days is a fool.

 

[Respawn]

Everyone should be on W10. W7 is ancient now and W8 is just an inferior version of W10

Give it a rest.

 

[Noobcraft]

Give it a rest.

He's right though.