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[Stillmatic]

Like others have mentioned this data logger tech could be great if it allows us to use that data as a ghost, especially (going by the new footage) how accurate it looks.

G25 setup, PSEye head tracking, 3D, and racing a real race drivers ghosts/times, that could be quite interesting.

 

[ShapeGSX]

The GPS appears to be recording steering angle, as well as vehicle position. You can't really get steering angle reliably from the vehicle position.

That must be why it is an OEM-only thing.

 

[malsumis]

The GPS appears to be recording steering angle, as well as vehicle position. You can't really get steering angle reliably from the vehicle position.

That must be why it is an OEM-only thing.

Hm, now to think of it, such a device would not need to know the exact position. It would only need to know where the starting line is, record stuff like steering angle, acceleration, speed, brake force. And then replay it using the physics engine in GT, If that is the case, then that side comaprison is an awesome testament to the simulation aspect in GT.

 

[bud]

why do the tires screech so much in gran turismo? take the tt demo: even if you're doing, like, 20mph and take a turn, you can hear the tires screeching pretty loud. take the latest lf-a video, the tire screeching is so loud, you almost can't even hear the real car anymore.

anyone?

 

[blu]

Hm, now to think of it, such a device would not need to know the exact position. It would only need to know where the starting line is, record stuff like steering angle, acceleration, speed, brake force. And then replay it using the physics engine in GT, If that is the case, then that side comaprison is an awesome testament to the simulation aspect in GT.

no, it can't. in order for such a simulated replay to be precise (to the degree demonstrated) it'd need to replicate the exact track and vehicle conditions at the time of the physical event, down to micro-levels. from momentary tire pressure, to dust on every cm^2 on the tarmac, to moisture condensations, etc. no real-world instruments provide this much data. 'recording' the trajectory as it happens is the only viable approach.

 

[Goldrusher]

anyone?

I guess the Japanese love it.

But in all seriousness, road tires on a circuit do that. Watch Top Gear's "Star in Reasonably Priced Car":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Mmo834ZW4#t=6m45s

Or Gilles Panizzi in an Evo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea010OMjnLU#t=4m30s

"He's shredding the tires. The tires will be slicks by the time you drive."

It should perhaps be a little dirtier in the game though. More rubbery.
But have you driven both the road and race car ? There's almost none with the race car.

 

[Psychotext]

anyone?

It's used as a feedback mechanism... that's why it's overblown.

(they really need to add a slider for it, it can't be that much effort)

 

[seattle6418]

anyone?

It's still a mistery. People complain since the original GT, and they never bothered to change.

It's like the reverse lights and skidmarks, not a big deal, but a minor thing that stands out.

To me, it's a problem of balance. The sound is too loud. If we could change SFX, Engine, and other separately, this wouldn't be an issue. It's like the wind noise in the chase view. Too loud compared to the engine.

 

[MGR]

while what you say about motorsport tech is true, your conclusion is not: visualization from 1st person is still not commonly found in motorsport field engineering software - it's essentially a privilege of simulators, which are still not commonly available (mainly due to the fact they're not your gaming enthusiast kind of software/hardware, and not all teams can afford them). using your real-world telemetry in a cheap visualization product like a ps3 running GT5 is a 'freebie' way to see your replays from first person on a field day. even for teams who have state-of-the-art simulators GT5 brings to the table a good dose of mobility, as those simulatiors are usually not the mobile type of equipment.

This may be a relatively low cost method of simulating a 3rd person replay from logged real world data but it still provides no benefit to a motor sport team. They do not need to render a game replay to see where time is being lost/gained from their logged data.

There is no racing team anywhere on the planet that will actually use this gimmicky feature to assist them with improving their performance. I stand by my previous post.

 

[blu]

This may be a relatively low cost method of simulating a 3rd person replay from logged real world data but it still provides no benefit to a motor sport team. They do not need to render a game replay to see where time is being lost/gained from their logged data.

1st person. i did not just randomly use 1st person. because this is what you see while driving the car, and this gives you a proper view at the track clues (given the track was properly modeled). questions like 'do i break before or after that tree?' can only be answered if you have (1) the driver's point-of-view of the track, and (2) the logs from an actual lap on it. that can give you a powerful tool for intimate familiarizing with a track you otherwise may not have time with. it's like a cockpit camera + controls logger, just so much more flexible.

There is no racing team anywhere on the planet that will actually use this gimmicky feature to assist them with improving their performance. I stand by my previous post.

let's wait and see about that, ok? ; ) given drivers use every small opportunity (sims, videos, you name it) to get acquainted with tracks, 'gimmicky feature' sounds a bit premature ; )

ps: in general, racing teams use every bit of data available to look at anything they can from an outing. that includes logs, telemetry (both live and accumulated), cockpit video feeds, etc. the only data they don't look at are those which they cannot get a hold of ; )

 

[iceatcs]

anyone?

I have a problem with this sound too, it can hurt my ears because I'm wearing my Hearing Aids that will vibrate my ear drums like Mike "Da Man" Mangini WR.

Maybe it is like that if you put microphone next to the wheel while racing and they didn't balance out when you got inside the car..

 

[Niks]

Well I can picture the data logger visualization really adding to the game.


Lets say PD hires or sponsors a renowned driver(s), to do laps around real tracks then upload the video/data for all GT5 players to challenge.
It would be good even for manufacturers. They could set up their own events with their own star drivers and get people to try their cars (sales)...

 

[MGR]

1st person. i did not just randomly use 1st person. because this is what you see while driving the car, and this gives you a proper view at the track clues (given the track was properly modeled). questions like 'do i break before or after that tree?' can only be answered if you have (1) the driver's point-of-view of the track, and (2) the logs from an actual lap on it. that can give you a powerful tool for intimate familiarizing with a track you otherwise may not have time with. it's like a cockpit camera + controls logger, just so much more flexible.


let's wait and see about that, ok? ; ) given drivers use every small opportunity (sims, videos, you name it) to get acquainted with tracks, 'gimmicky feature' sounds a bit premature ; )

ps: in general, racing teams use every bit of data available to look at anything they can from an outing. that includes logs, telemetry (both live and accumulated), cockpit video feeds, etc. the only data they don't look at are those which they cannot get a hold of ; )

I made the assumption you meant 3rd person as this would actually be something that current data loggers don't do.

Example:
http://www.motec.com.au/aboutvideo/videooverview/

Seriously, why would anybody rather use a GT5 replay made from logged data over using actual on-board video?

Sure some drivers will use games in an attempt to familiarise themselves with a new track, but logging real life data then overlaying it into a game it pointless as no matter how good the game physics are they are never going to be the same as real life.

Yeah race teams acquire a lot of testing data (some more than others). Using that data to generate a pretty GT5 replay provides no additional benefit whatsoever.

 

[Veins]

Well I can picture the data logger visualization really adding to the game.


Lets say PD hires or sponsors a renowned driver(s), to do laps around real tracks then upload the video/data for all GT5 players to challenge.
It would be good even for manufacturers. They could set up their own events with their own star drivers and get people to try their cars (sales)...

Yeah, imagine racing against the fastest lap around Fuji set that weekend in the SuperGT race or something like that. Far fetched, but it would be pretty cool I reckon.

 

[spwolf]

I made the assumption you meant 3rd person as this would actually be something that current data loggers don't do.

Example:
http://www.motec.com.au/aboutvideo/videooverview/

Seriously, why would anybody rather use a GT5 replay made from logged data over using actual on-board video?

Sure some drivers will use games in an attempt to familiarise themselves with a new track, but logging real life data then overlaying it into a game it pointless as no matter how good the game physics are they are never going to be the same as real life.

Yeah race teams acquire a lot of testing data (some more than others). Using that data to generate a pretty GT5 replay provides no additional benefit whatsoever.

you act as if every racing team has complicated data loggers - they mostly do not. Only few top teams in few top events use complicated equipment as data loggers, let alone simulators. Most real racing around the world is done at semi-amateur levels. They mostly have enough sponsorships to maintain their cars, if that.

This is not meant for them. This whole idea is meant for people who want to track their FT-86, so they can prepare better and analyze their laps (even with their driving instructors) afterwards. If anyone made $200 GPS with such features, it would be snapped by anyone ever wanting to attend tracks and be mandatory at racing schools and clubs.

In fact, similar hardware is a lot more expensive:
k:http://store.traqmate.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=55

And thats only for watching your replay.

Professional data loggers you quoted there are not meant for same purposes (of driver learning the track). They use simulators for that... and not every team in F1 has simulator, and even then, they are too big to carry around so drivers dont get to spend a lot of time in them which is why you had quotes of them playing GT4 to learn the track. But regardless, this is not meant for F1 drivers, nor BTCC, GT1-4, professional drivers.

FT-86 unit, if it becomes real life product, will give you tools to learn track, braking points, entry/exit speeds that rival very expensive simulators, and then analyze your laps afterwards. For amateur drivers that spend a lot of money on track weekends, and want to prepare better. If Denso ever makes standalone unit for this, you can rest assured that it will become mandatory at many racing schools around the globe.

 

[TwiztidElf]

Can someone please explain the head tracking, because it doesn't make sense to me.
No matter how I move my head, my TV isn't going to move.

How I see it, you move your head to the right, the view on screen moves right. But the TV doesn't move. This is completely flawed in concept. As the TV does not move and the display is not surrounding me, my eyes have to remain static regardless of the head movement and movement on screen. Wouldn't this lead to a disconnection of what they're attempting to achieve?

 

[MGR]

you act as if every racing team has complicated data loggers - they mostly do not. Only few top teams in few top events use complicated equipment as data loggers, let alone simulators. Most real racing around the world is done at semi-amateur levels. They mostly have enough sponsorships to maintain their cars, if that.

This is not meant for them. This whole idea is meant for people who want to track their FT-86, so they can prepare better and analyze their laps (even with their driving instructors) afterwards. If anyone made $200 GPS with such features, it would be snapped by anyone ever wanting to attend tracks and be mandatory at racing schools and clubs.

In fact, similar hardware is a lot more expensive:
k:http://store.traqmate.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=55

And thats only for watching your replay.

Professional data loggers you quoted there are not meant for same purposes (of driver learning the track). They use simulators for that... and not every team in F1 has simulator, and even then, they are too big to carry around so drivers dont get to spend a lot of time in them which is why you had quotes of them playing GT4 to learn the track. But regardless, this is not meant for F1 drivers, nor BTCC, GT1-4, professional drivers.

FT-86 unit, if it becomes real life product, will give you tools to learn track, braking points, entry/exit speeds that rival very expensive simulators, and then analyze your laps afterwards. For amateur drivers that spend a lot of money on track weekends, and want to prepare better. If Denso ever makes standalone unit for this, you can rest assured that it will become mandatory at many racing schools around the globe.

WTF are you talking about?

Somebody suggested that..

It might be pretty useless to GT players, but you can definitely see racing teams getting interested in this kind of stuff for training/testing/telemetry, etc.

I disagreed.

Doesn't matter what kind of data logging capabilities any motor sport team or competitor has. Using logged data to generate a GT5 reply serves no useful purpose.

 

[Zaptruder]

WTF are you talking about?

Somebody suggested that..



I disagreed.

Doesn't matter what kind of data logging capabilities any motor sport team or competitor has. Using logged data to generate a GT5 reply serves no useful purpose.

And he just replied with a pretty indepth and decent answer as to why it would serve a purpose.

But you refuse to comprehend.

 

[spwolf]

WTF are you talking about?

Somebody suggested that..



I disagreed.

Doesn't matter what kind of data logging capabilities any motor sport team or competitor has. Using logged data to generate a GT5 reply serves no useful purpose.

saying that reviewing your lap times visually does not matter is like saying that testing and practicing on tracks does not matter. GT5 replay would give you easy visualisation of your performance at basically no cost.

If we are talking about special product for teams, having simulator like GT which uses GPS tracking unit to track your track time, and then analyzes it on simulator as portable as PS3, would become mandatory at any team, small or large, amateur or pro.

 

[Zaptruder]

Can someone please explain the head tracking, because it doesn't make sense to me.
No matter how I move my head, my TV isn't going to move.

How I see it, you move your head to the right, the view on screen moves right. But the TV doesn't move. This is completely flawed in concept. As the TV does not move and the display is not surrounding me, my eyes have to remain static regardless of the head movement and movement on screen. Wouldn't this lead to a disconnection of what they're attempting to achieve?

It exaggerates your head movements, so that you can still look at the screen while the camera point of view looks far left or right (or up/down).

 

[MGR]

And he just replied with a pretty indepth and decent answer as to why it would serve a purpose.

Nope. Just ramblings about the usefulness of data logging. I'm not debating the practical applications of data logging, just that displaying it in the form of a GT replay serves no purpose in helping a motor sport team improve performance.

Those that wish to capture real on board video footage combined with logged data can already do so - and have been doing for many years at a relativity low cost.

saying that reviewing your lap times visually does not matter is like saying that testing and practicing on tracks does not matter.

No, it really isn't.

Logged data is reviewed visually using much more accurate sensor charts overlayed on each other. It is near impossible to see where a car is losing/gaining 1/10 of a second by watching it from the sidelines in real life, let alone watching a computerised GT5 replay.

GT5 replay would give you easy visualisation of your performance at basically no cost.

Most after market motor sport data logging equipment now have a video feed option. Money much better invested than buying a PS3 and a copy of GT5.

If we are talking about special product for teams, having simulator like GT which uses GPS tracking unit to track your track time, and then analyzes it on simulator as portable as PS3, would become mandatory at any team, small or large, amateur or pro.

Anybody who thinks motor sport teams will use PS3 and GT5 to analyse data is deluded.

 

[iceatcs]

MGR, what racing team are you in?

 

[Zaptruder]

Nope. Just ramblings about the usefulness of data logging. I'm not debating the practical applications of data logging, just that displaying it in the form of a GT replay serves no purpose in helping a motor sport team improve performance.

Those that wish to capture real on board video footage combined with logged data can already do so - and have been doing for many years at a relativity low cost.

Let's break it down.

normal data logging equipment is expensive.

This data logger will be built into some cars (or perhaps sold seperately as a kit; details are scant at this point).

Not all racers or even racing teams can afford all that equipment. This is a pretty easy and straightforward low cost way of doing things.

Video capture equipment is one way of getting racing data; but we can now do it through GT as well; analyze how you're performing on track; and how close you are to hitting the apex, or where you've come off on the track... or a myriad of other similar reasons that been able to see all around the car as well as inside the car would be handy to someone wanting to analyze their track performance.

Of course, it also provides some post racing wank, or recapturing of the moment. A nice point, even if it's not an important one.

But if we were to listen to your suggestion, having a ton of cameras mounted on the car (increasing weight and cost significantly) would be the best and only way for all teams that want any sort of visualization data... and that dedicated specialist racing telemetry data provided by expensive data logging devices is also the best and only way to get track data.


This feature isn't going to rewrite the rules of the game... at least in this iteration; but it is a nice bonus, and can be more than just a gimmick for some, while also providing a nice glimpse at things to come. i.e. the tightening of the gap between reality and virtual (until they become the two sides of the same coin really).

 

[Gravijah]

MGR, what racing team are you in?

iceatcs, what game development studio are you with?

 

[iceatcs]

iceatcs, what game development studio are you with?

Oh ok, not quite game studio, I work for TVI Design.


I would like to speak anyone who are in the racing world.

 

[spwolf]

Logged data is reviewed visually using much more accurate sensor charts overlayed on each other. It is near impossible to see where a car is losing/gaining 1/10 of a second by watching it from the sidelines in real life, let alone watching a computerised GT5 replay.

what sensor charts are you talking about? I have an feeling you dont understand how this works and are too stuck on GT/PS3. Did you ever play GT TT and do you understand what replay info you get by default there?

Look at it this way:

Portable Racing Simulator with data logging
- Portable Track unit that logs your track day
- Portable Racing Simulator that you can input your logs to review
- Plug and Play
- under $1k and 20 KG for full equipment.

What are these sensors that you think are missing from Denso GPS unit? To see how they managed to accuratly create replay from logs, i very much doubt Denso GPS is missing anything compared to "pro" equipment.

 

[phil_t]

Well I can picture the data logger visualization really adding to the game.


Lets say PD hires or sponsors a renowned driver(s), to do laps around real tracks then upload the video/data for all GT5 players to challenge.
It would be good even for manufacturers. They could set up their own events with their own star drivers and get people to try their cars (sales)...

The issue here is, the GPS Logged replays/ghosts are just positional data that came from real world 'phsyics'..

When you drive the same car in-game with in-game physics, they will inevitably be quite different, so all you will end up with is a normal competition to see who is the fastest in-game..

It's a cool feature to show as a tech demo, but it's usefulness is very limited and it seems a shame that time was spent on this which must have, from it's very nature detracted from completing the game in a timely manner...

 

[painful fart]

I pray to God they make some real-world WRC stages part of the game. It would be awesome if they recorded Loebs and friends races and made them available for download.

But I am not expecting it to happen, we haven´t heard shit about WRC since E3. :-(

 

[TTG]

It's a cool feature to show as a tech demo, but it's usefulness is very limited and it seems a shame that time was spent on this which must have, from it's very nature detracted from completing the game in a timely manner...

Setting aside the issue of how(if at all) this feature will effect the final game, who are we to say what's a distraction and if it had an impact on the release date? There's no reason to assume that the people working on adding new car models and generally "polishing" the already finished product were pulled off to program this in. Actually, common sense would seem to point in the opposite direction. How about Polyphony packs their shit up and goes home Rockstar style? All you get is a couple of trailers and a release date, after all touring around every auto show with Yamouchi and fresh builds can only detract from completing the game.

Let Polyphony make all the GTR telemetry, GPS tracking and Ferrari promotional videos and whatever else they want. It only serves to bring a racing videogame and the car world closer together.

 

[phil_t]

Setting aside the issue of how(if at all) this feature will effect the final game, who are we to say what's a distraction and if it had an impact on the release date? There's no reason to assume that the people working on adding new car models and generally "polishing" the already finished product were pulled off to program this in. Actually, common sense would seem to point in the opposite direction. How about Polyphony packs their shit up and goes home Rockstar style? All you get is a couple of trailers and a release date, after all touring around every auto show with Yamouchi and fresh builds can only detract from completing the game.

Let Polyphony make all the GTR telemetry, GPS tracking and Ferrari promotional videos and whatever else they want. It only serves to bring a racing videogame and the car world closer together.

I think you have to stretch your imagination quite far to be optimistic enough to say that this type of feature has no negative impact on the products development..

But if you want to throw practicalities out of the window, we'd never have anything to discuss, because unless absolute facts are known, everything is a 'maybe'...

 

[Iknos]

Let Polyphony make all the GTR telemetry, GPS tracking and Ferrari promotional videos and whatever else they want. It only serves to bring a racing videogame and the car world closer together.

I agree. It might not be useful for most of us but it can further impact the racing world.

BUT

Does this really have to be a Day 1 feature?

I'd rather have this sort of functionality patched in. Lay in the groundwork for it now then patch in the rest later. At this point I think there are more important things related to the playability of the game.

PD is always working on Gran Turismo as a series and haven't really stopped. But if they want to release GT5 they're going to have to feature cut and stick with a set for GT "5.0". They should make the game easily patchable so that we can try this stuff out and instead of labeling it as "concept" make it "5.1" and so on.

 

[iceatcs]

That gsm/data logged ain't sound a huge feature and I don't think it taking too much resource in the development at all. Maybe just very few men power for a week if you have complete well acturally track and final physic engine, then you only require the coding.

But the techology side, its sound cool. If work then why not put it as standard for serious racing game.

 

[patsu]

The thing may be needed for them to measure their own success/failure in physics, modelling, animation, etc.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

i see this as a marketing tool, when gt5 comes out there will be contests like " beat schumachers real laptime" or stuff like this...

and i do think that it is a very good thing for people who go to tracks every weekend, amateurs of course. they would kill for this actually...

 

[spwolf]

The issue here is, the GPS Logged replays/ghosts are just positional data that came from real world 'phsyics'..

When you drive the same car in-game with in-game physics, they will inevitably be quite different, so all you will end up with is a normal competition to see who is the fastest in-game..

It's a cool feature to show as a tech demo, but it's usefulness is very limited and it seems a shame that time was spent on this which must have, from it's very nature detracted from completing the game in a timely manner...

there is no reason to downplay this technology.

I am not aware of simulator that can do it significantly better (replicate real world inputs on custom racing vehicles as setting those up takes same time as setting cars up which means nobody has time for that). I doubt anyone will build simulator that is able to 100% mimic behaviour of vehicle on track under current conditions.

I have prepared lengthy reply but who really cares . In short, this is very cheap, affordable way to get same data and functionality that top simulators use.

Racing teams pay a lot of money for data loggers that show the same info, and are not integrated into any kind of simulator. Most of the racing teams dont have money for that, they spend their budget on maintenance and spare parts.

 

[spwolf]

The thing may be needed for them to measure their own success/failure in physics, modelling, animation, etc.

thats another angle to look at - especially when tuning the vehicle, it is very useful to compare between real and virtual vehicle. It could very much be that this was originally developed for that purpose.

 

[MGR]

Let's break it down.

normal data logging equipment is expensive.

This data logger will be built into some cars (or perhaps sold seperately as a kit; details are scant at this point).

Not all racers or even racing teams can afford all that equipment. This is a pretty easy and straightforward low cost way of doing things.

Why do you make the assumption that the Toyota data logging equipment will be cheaper than currently available data logging equipment? If anything the cost will be probably be more. (Anybody who has compared prices for OEM sat-nav vs. aftemarket can vouch for that)

Video capture equipment is one way of getting racing data; but we can now do it through GT as well; analyze how you're performing on track; and how close you are to hitting the apex, or where you've come off on the track... or a myriad of other similar reasons that been able to see all around the car as well as inside the car would be handy to someone wanting to analyze their track performance.

Of course, it also provides some post racing wank, or recapturing of the moment. A nice point, even if it's not an important one.

But if we were to listen to your suggestion, having a ton of cameras mounted on the car (increasing weight and cost significantly) would be the best and only way for all teams that want any sort of visualization data... and that dedicated specialist racing telemetry data provided by expensive data logging devices is also the best and only way to get track data.

Race teams use very little (if any) video footage for data analysis. If they have a race driver who needs to watch a replay of their performance to see if they're clipping the apex then it's time to get a new a driver.

what sensor charts are you talking about? I have an feeling you dont understand how this works and are too stuck on GT/PS3. Did you ever play GT TT and do you understand what replay info you get by default there?

Look at it this way:

Portable Racing Simulator with data logging
- Portable Track unit that logs your track day
- Portable Racing Simulator that you can input your logs to review
- Plug and Play
- under $1k and 20 KG for full equipment.

What are these sensors that you think are missing from Denso GPS unit? To see how they managed to accuratly create replay from logs, i very much doubt Denso GPS is missing anything compared to "pro" equipment.

Racing teams pay a lot of money for data loggers that show the same info, and are not integrated into any kind of simulator. Most of the racing teams dont have money for that, they spend their budget on maintenance and spare parts.

I'm well aware how this works. Unfortunately you seem to be out of your depth when it comes to this subject. Race simulators do not display logged data - but they can create and test different scenarios to assist teams in setting up cars for races without even hitting the track. They are mostly used in the upper echelon of motor sport and have become quite prevalent in Formula 1 due to the on-track testing bans imposed by the FIA.

I can't be bothered to continue trying to explain why this 'replay generation' gimmick is of no use analysing data in motor sport applications.

If you would like to see what real data analysis software looks like try here:

Autospeed Data Logging Article:
Hardware: http://www.autospeed.com/A_108254/cms/article.html
Analysis Software: http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_MoTeCs-Race-Car-Data-Logging-Part-2/A_108255/article.html

If you like you can even download the software and test it using sample data.http://www.motec.com/i2/i2pro/

spwolf
If this poster agrees with
you, you're doing
something very wrong.
(Today, 09:11 PM)
Reply | Quote

MGR, what racing team are you in?

Been racing for the best part of my life. 17 years motor sport experience and counting

PM me if you want to know anything else.

 

[Zaptruder]

Why do you make the assumption that the Toyota data logging equipment will be cheaper than currently available data logging equipment? If anything the cost will be probably be more. (Anybody who has compared prices for OEM sat-nav vs. aftemarket can vouch for that)



Race teams use very little (if any) video footage for data analysis. If they have a race driver who needs to watch a replay of their performance to see if they're clipping the apex then it's time to get a new a driver.





I'm well aware how this works. Unfortunately you seem to be out of your depth when it comes to this subject. Race simulators do not display logged data - but they can create and test different scenarios to assist teams in setting up cars for races without even hitting the track. They are mostly used in the upper echelon of motor sport and have become quite prevalent in Formula 1 due to the on-track testing bans imposed by the FIA.

I can't be bothered to continue trying to explain why this 'replay generation' gimmick is of no use analysing data in motor sport applications.

If you would like to see what real data analysis software looks like try here:

Autospeed Data Logging Article:
Hardware: http://www.autospeed.com/A_108254/cms/article.html
Analysis Software: http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_MoTeCs-Race-Car-Data-Logging-Part-2/A_108255/article.html

If you like you can even download the software and test it using sample data.http://www.motec.com/i2/i2pro/





Been racing for the best part of my life. 17 years motor sport experience and counting

PM me if you want to know anything else.

Well thanks for the insight. But you do come off as a jerk especially when unqualified/out of context of these facts

 

[jett]

nm.

 

[Evolved1]

Can someone please explain the head tracking, because it doesn't make sense to me.
No matter how I move my head, my TV isn't going to move.

How I see it, you move your head to the right, the view on screen moves right. But the TV doesn't move. This is completely flawed in concept. As the TV does not move and the display is not surrounding me, my eyes have to remain static regardless of the head movement and movement on screen. Wouldn't this lead to a disconnection of what they're attempting to achieve?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ

Watch and be amazed... step into the light, brother.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

enough of this worthless gps banter - the honda hsv up close and personal:

http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20100119_343264.html

:drool

 

[Psychotext]

So how much would one of those set me back?

 

[Vespa]

enough of this worthless gps banter - the honda hsv up close and personal:

http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20100119_343264.html

:drool

That is MEAN!

 

[spwolf]

I'm well aware how this works. Unfortunately you seem to be out of your depth when it comes to this subject. Race simulators do not display logged data - but they can create and test different scenarios to assist teams in setting up cars for races without even hitting the track. They are mostly used in the upper echelon of motor sport and have become quite prevalent in Formula 1 due to the on-track testing bans imposed by the FIA.

I can't be bothered to continue trying to explain why this 'replay generation' gimmick is of no use analysing data in motor sport applications.

If you would like to see what real data analysis software looks like try here:

Autospeed Data Logging Article:
Hardware: http://www.autospeed.com/A_108254/cms/article.html
Analysis Software: http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_MoTeCs-Race-Car-Data-Logging-Part-2/A_108255/article.html

If you like you can even download the software and test it using sample data.http://www.motec.com/i2/i2pro/





Been racing for the best part of my life. 17 years motor sport experience and counting
PM me if you want to know anything else.

We were talking about data loggers for learning the track, not engine managment. You even linked and showed to MoTeCs VCS, which does exactly that.

So you are saying that drivers do not need to learn the track and they dont use such tools? That Racing Simulators are used only for setup reasons not actually for learning the track? Interesting.

You do realize that MoTeC VCS is exactly type of functionality that this GT5 will offer?

On Screen Display
The video may have the following data overlaid if the required sensors are installed in the vehicle:


•Throttle Position: displayed as a vertical green bar graph scaled between 0% and 100%
•Ground Speed: displayed as a gauge from 0 to 300 kph with overlaid numeric value
•RPM: displayed as a gauge from 0 to 9000 rpm with overlaid text value
•G force: displayed as a G circle from 0 to 2G with an indicator point and an overlaid text value for lateral and longitudinal G
•Brake Switch: displayed as a vertical red bar graph
•Gear: displayed numeric in the centre
•Lap number, Lap time, Last lap time: displayed numeric
•Steering: displayed as a steering wheel

You even linked to the damn thing and now you say it is pointless .
And VCS needs to be linked to their data logger to get info above. Meaning it is not standalone, and you pay $2k only for VCS.

Or did you think that GT5 generates simple replays and that you could not get anything else from it? I have an feeling that you do not really understand how hardware and software interacts with each other in such applications if you thought that this was technically inferior solution to VCS. I have never raced and have limited knowledge of data loggers but I do have 12 years of software experience. Which makes techonology like this quite understandable.


Again, it is inferior because it is not dedicated. But the type of information you can gain from such system is the same you can get from VCS. There is no inferiority there.
They take same inputs, and instead of throwing them into simple log, it outputs it as set of information that game can read and generate replay from, together with showing all the info above that VCS shows. They operate on same types of data. In fact, Deno GPS probably outputs more data than Motec loggers for this purpose, as otherwise it would not be able to re-create everything properly.

You also do not have to be an a-hole when you talk to someone else around here. I find it quite interesting that you think that using software to learn track and make yourself better driver (and not just make car better car) is useless.

 

[SolidSnakex]

enough of this worthless gps banter - the honda hsv up close and personal:

http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20100119_343264.html

:drool

I'm happy that Kaz confirmed that this car is going to be in GT5. I know there were some thinking that it wouldn't make it.

 

[twinturbo2]

Fuji, Fuji, Fuji... is the classic layout going to be in the game? I don't remember that abortion of a redesign in Pole Position, ffs...

 

[ShapeGSX]

The fact that the GPS datalogger is only going to work for real world tracks that GT5 has modeled makes it pretty much worthless for racing teams, forget about the rest of the arguments.

 

[Niks]

 

[rocksteady1983]

Have they announced or revealed any photomode locations and how many there will be? I assume all of the ones on GT5P will be on there.

 

[blu]

I made the assumption you meant 3rd person as this would actually be something that current data loggers don't do.

no, i did not mean 3d person as there's little a 3rd-person 3D rendering of the lap plot could tell that a vanilla 'bird-view' 2D track-overlay plot could not.

Seriously, why would anybody rather use a GT5 replay made from logged data over using actual on-board video?

because:
* video does not give you head rotation
* video suffers from clarity problems typical for outdoors video capturing (you don't control the lighting conditions on a track day, do you?). the synthetic recreation of the track does not suffer from those. that allows you to focus on whatever cues from the track you like. basically, a GT5 lap replay could give you a level of detail from the track you could never hope to acquire (or practically could not, under real-life restrictions) with any sort of on-board video.

Sure some drivers will use games in an attempt to familiarise themselves with a new track, but logging real life data then overlaying it into a game it pointless as no matter how good the game physics are they are never going to be the same as real life.

that's likely INS-logged navigational datasets, there's no game physics there, or if there is it's minimal, as yet another means for log error correction. IOW, the precision of that trajectory would be the same (or better) as that used in the engineering lap charts (given the actual INS used was of the same class, of course).

Yeah race teams acquire a lot of testing data (some more than others). Using that data to generate a pretty GT5 replay provides no additional benefit whatsoever.

it's not a 'pretty' replay, it's an engineering-log-precise (same resolution, same timeline) + point-of-view + clear picture + flexible-view-angles replay. still not seeing it?


ps: one of the reasons i'm so enthusiastic about what GT5 brings to the table is that i was doing racing software for 4 years, in the span 2001-2004, covering engineering analysis workstations (used in both F1 and WRC), ECU worstations, dashboards (WRC), and wind tunnel control sw. from the POV of engineering, all (properly acquired) data is useful data. some of that data is also useful to the driver, but it usually has to be 'pre-chewed' in a humanly-usable form. in my view, what GT5 brings to the table is the equivalent of a 'happy-meal' fast-food menu - you can't live indefinitely on that, but it's darn useful to have it in those rushed situations, and does not cost much either. of course, i'm not a race driver, so if a race driver says it's useless, and he would rather stare at charts, trying to recall the actual track environment corresponding to individual data points, then engineering shrugs and moves on ;]