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[stump sock]

Kotaku is the equivalent of Entertainment Weekly not The New York Times and it's ridiculous that this even has to be said.

somebody wasn't paying attention to that thread yesterday

 

[Vire]

Now you know why studios like Bungie have security on site.

Should've hired Jerome:

 

[jschreier]

With the Sony hack, everyone was running with it.
SSN, real name, salary, movie projects...fair game to the media.

Lots of ethical questions there RE: what to report and how much of it to report, but the most important thing about that hack is that it was all public information posted on torrent sites, not sent to a journalistic outlet. There's a big difference between illegally-obtained info that's public domain and illegally-obtained info that's sent privately to a journalist or website.

 

[kiguel182]

But at the same time, they aren't our friends either. Their existence hinges on making money off of us, and I don't think we owe them anything.

That's a very cynical way to look at things, the type of thing I don't think it's healthy.

They make a product that you can, or cannot buy. It's pretty simple.

CBOAT and the rest are actual employees or know actual employees who are leaking stuff that have signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement. And yet they openly reveal shit. Some guy leaked the ENTIRE 2015 for Xbox here and everyone cheered him on it, and I'm sure he signed some serious NDA too!

This guy just walked in and had lunch and spoke with an employee or two. It's like me walking into Valve's office or Ubisoft's office or Microsoft's office and having their food and chatting with employees when one of them blurts out "Yeah, that Half Life 3 is now a MOBA". You;d be surprised how welcoming some developers are to visitors. However, this man is a sneaking fuck and got away with it.

Have you ever walked into Ubisoft's office? Last I checked, they had a poster in the hallway with a photo from a surveillance footage that said "THIS MAN ENTERED UBISOFT BUILDING YESTERDAY. He walked around the hallways and may have peaked at what we are working on. Look out for him next time he comes!"

There's barely any serious security at Ubisoft Toronto besides a locked door. I rarely blame the companies for not having such protocols in place, but it happens. Kotaku is not to blame for this.

I don't encourage any of that stuff. Those Microsoft leaks probably hurt them a ton since the reveals would have generated tons of hype.

I just don't think leaks are a good thing. Obviously if someone posted a pic of HF3 right now I would be ecstatic 'cause I'm only human but I don't think it should be done 'cause it might hurt the devs and, as I said, I don't think that's a positive.

This might not always be the case and things can differ depending the situation but I'm talking generally of course.

 

[kiguel182]

somebody wasn't paying attention to that thread yesterday

They have reviews on the New York Times, is that what you are referring?

EW also reviews stuff.

I'm talking about the so called "hard hitting journalism".

 

[BiggNife]

First, I'm not going to respond to everyone individually but this isn't about what journalism is or isn't.

Video game press is enthusiastic press. People treating it like they do real journalists that investigate corruption or matters that have a serious impact on people's life is ridiculous. Video games and video-game devs aren't that. Kotaku is the equivalent of Entertainment Weekly not The New York Times and it's ridiculous that this even has to be said.

I am not really sure what you're going for here. No one said that Kotaku is the New York Times. But it's still journalism, and journalism includes objectively reporting on news. You can disagree with it from a moral standpoint all you want, but Kotaku literally did their job, so I don't really think it's fair to attack them in this instance.

 

[stump sock]

I don't encourage any of that stuff. Those Microsoft leaks probably hurt them a ton since the reveals would have generated tons of hype.

you're conflating the act of stealing/leaking info and the act of reporting on it once it's happened

leaks are bad. you're not gonna get that toothpaste back in the tube though.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

I repeat: We, as NeoGAF, have done far worse by datamining and looking at website or game source codes to determine what a developer is working on. We have done far worse... and no one complained then.

This is extremely shitty situation but Kotaku is not to blame here.

Are you seriously claiming that sifting through public information is somehow not only a bad thing, but worse than someone sneaking into private property and pretending to be an employee in order to glean information about private projects in development?

In some industries it would result in the company being fined millions for even allowing it to happen at all. I'm with Jason in that the story is about the trespassing and not the game, but let's not pretend this dude didn't straight up break the law.

Checking the page source on a website and looking up publicly available trademark records isn't breaking the law.

 

[kiguel182]

I am not really sure what you're going for here. No one said that Kotaku is the New York Times. But it's still journalism, and journalism includes objectively reporting on news. You can disagree with it from a moral standpoint all you want, but Kotaku literally did their job, so I don't really think it's fair to attack them in this instance.

That's what I did. I disagreed with them from a moral standpoint.

I know this is news, my point is that this type of stuff shouldn't be published and that devs privacy should be respected.

That's my whole point.

 

[Jebusman]

'cause it might hurt the devs

At no point should a journalist ever factor in the feelings of the subject of his article when objectively reporting news. They are here to report facts to us. They are not here to protect the developers.

You have a moral issue with the very core of what journalism is, and I doubt anyone in this thread is going to convince you otherwise.

 

[Busaiku]

This is the greatest thing.

 

[Mexen]

But will Guy show up in game?

 

[kiguel182]

you're conflating the act of stealing/leaking info and the act of reporting on it once it's happened

leaks are bad. you're not gonna get that toothpaste back in the tube though.

Except Kotaku has leaked stuff themselves. And Jason here even said that if the guy came to them he would have published them.

I don't think they should do this.

I referer to the NWY vs EW because people like to retort that this is real journalism and more websites should do it while I disagree and while some of this might apply to serious newspapers because it involves real issues I think you can't simply apply the same principle to the work of a simple company and that privacy should be respected if breaching it can hurt the company.

 

[Aces&Eights]

Everyone is saying the tattoo guy is in trouble but what about the guy who just spilled the beans to a total stranger? I'd imagine the team lead told everyone on the project not to talk about it with anyone. Some guy walks up to your desk as you are working on a super secret game and you turn your monitor so he can see better?

 

[Timeaisis]

I think the real story here is that DE only works till 6. Bravo.

 

[Forkball]

Still doesn't beat the Assasins Creed plane leak in my eyes.

 

[JigglesBunny]

Can you imagine the employees that he chummed the info out of right now?

That has to be humiliating.

 

[benny_a]

Except Kotaku has leaked stuff themselves. And Jason here even said that if the guy came to them he would have published them.

I don't think they should do this.

Yes he would have published the story about him sneaking into the office in broad daylight by following a random person and then eating lunch and hanging out for 6 hours and talking to developers.

That doesn't mean that they would have published anything that he obtained or that if the situation was slightly different like a forced entry would have been.

This is an amusing story to read and now we know the name of a game that is in development. What an absolute shock. And it's a card game. Another shock.

 

[kiguel182]

At no point should a journalist ever factor in the feelings of the subject of his article when objectively reporting news. They are here to report facts to us. They are not here to protect the developers.

You have a moral issue with the very core of what journalism is, and I doubt anyone in this thread is going to convince you otherwise.

What you, and a lot of people, don't get is that we are not talking about watergate or corrupt companies.

We are talking about video-games and people that make them.

I have no moral issues with real journalism, my moral issues is applying principles that make sense in a context and translating them to the video-game world when they are nothing alike.

Video-game companies and upcoming games shouldn't be treated like BP or Monsanto and if they do something that it's hurtful and impactuf then sure, go ahead and uncover that dirt. But leaking games doesn't fall into that. At all. And that's what you and people that advocate for "real video game journalism" don't get.

 

[stump sock]

.

frankly I understand where your argument is coming from, I just think it's coming from a place of deep naivety. like the other person said, I don't think anybody is going to convince you otherwise, so it's probably best for me to drop it.

Everyone is saying the tattoo guy is in trouble but what about the guy who just spilled the beans to a total stranger? I'd imagine the team lead told everyone on the project not to talk about it with anyone. Some guy walks up to your desk as you are working on a super secret game and you turn your monitor so he can see better?

hah, I brought that up. yeah, you don't just go tell people from other teams what your team is working on, but again, with all the churn in game development, that might not be too deeply ingrained in people

 

[BiggNife]

That's what I did. I disagreed with them from a moral standpoint.

I know this is news, my point is that this type of stuff shouldn't be published and that devs privacy should be respected.

That's my whole point.

And my point is that its still in line with journalistic ethics to publish it, so whether or not you disagree doesn't really matter.

But it's pretty obvious you're not willing to budge here so I'm gonna drop it.

 

[Thoraxes]

Well, at least I now know why my workplace forces us to individually swipe in to get access to the building lol

 

[jeffers]

Except Kotaku has leaked stuff themselves. And Jason here even said that if the guy came to them he would have published them.

I don't think they should do this.

I referer to the NWY vs EW because people like to retort that this is real journalism and more websites should do it while I disagree and while some of this might apply to serious newspapers because it involves real issues I think you can't simply apply the same principle to the work of a simple company and that privacy should be respected if breaching it can hurt the company.

it might temporarily hurt the company, but it helps the industry. Its a gaming news story thats funny (furthering gaming culture) and it acts to warn people about security, helping try stop anything more serious happening across the industry.

 

[Megasoum]

Well Jason your article was just mailed around at least 2 studios I know as a stark reminder to not open the door to random people in the lobby lol.

 

[Jebusman]

What you, and a lot of people, don't get is that we are not talking about watergate or corrupt companies.

We are talking about video-games and people that make them.

I have no moral issues with real journalism, my moral issues is applying principles that make sense in a context and translating them to the video-game world when they are nothing alike.

Video-game companies and upcoming games shouldn't be treated like BP or Monsanto and if they do something that it's hurtful and impactuf then sure, go ahead and uncover that dirt. But leaking games doesn't fall into that. At all. And that's what you and people that advocate for "real video game journalism" don't get.

What you don't seem to get is that journalism isn't a sliding scale of importance depending on whatever subject it's about. Journalism is journalism, across all mediums, across all topics.

You seem to want video games to live in this weird bubble of protection.

And what would happen if it turned out EA/Ubisoft/Activision, or any of the AAA developers turned out to be just as corrupt, but on a smaller overall scale? Would we then be allowed to report this kind of stuff? Or would we still need to "protect the developers".

Totally average people worked at BP, and had nothing to do with the shit that went down. We could be hurting them by reporting on all their shenanigans. They were just workers, cogs in the overall machine. We need to protect them too.

 

[Aces&Eights]

What you, and a lot of people, don't get is that we are not talking about watergate or corrupt companies.

We are talking about video-games and people that make them.

I have no moral issues with real journalism, my moral issues is applying principles that make sense in a context and translating them to the video-game world when they are nothing alike.

Video-game companies and upcoming games shouldn't be treated like BP or Monsanto and if they do something that it's hurtful and impactuf then sure, go ahead and uncover that dirt. But leaking games doesn't fall into that. At all. And that's what you and people that advocate for "real video game journalism" don't get.

I don't want someone deciding what is and what isn't news for me. History shows us when that happens bad things can result from it. You might not think is needed but a lot of us do. I don't think GMOs are a big deal as its all just science so if I walked in and found out all cereal in your county was made in a Petrie dish you would be ok if I had the news not report it? Wouldn't want the manufacturer to fire anyone because of it, right?

 

[conweller]

"I didn't commit the crime, but I'm sure glad someone did!" - The story of how the internet provided everyone the degree of separation necessary to excuse themselves from the challenge of ethical ambiguity.

 

[jschreier]

Well Jason your article was just mailed around at least 2 studios I know as a stark reminder to not open the door to random people in the lobby lol.

Service journalism!

 

[kiguel182]

And my point is that its still in line with journalistic ethics to publish it, so whether or not you disagree doesn't really matter.

But it's pretty obvious you're not willing to budge here so I'm gonna drop it.

I already explained why that so called journalistic ethics shouldn't be applied here. That's part of my whole argument. So I covered that.

You aren't getting where I'm coming from either so there's no point in continuing this I agree. I think I explained my reasoning as well as I could so we would just be circling the point from now on.

And you don't need to give me "I'm not willing to budge" talk when you aren't either. No need to be condescending.

 

[smurfx]

a couple of months back i had work at some game company but as soon as i saw they mostly did cellphone games i stopped caring and didn't bother looking around.

 

[Kyou]

I can't believe those press sneak fucks reported on a story that undermines a PR cycle and reveals a game earlier than desired.

Literally worse than Hitler.

 

[ScatheZombie]

Any piece that can hurt a company isn't a good piece. And leaking projects early can do that. And I think you are smart enough to understand that hurting developers should be avoided because hey, they are just trying to do their job like you do yours.

Hell yes!
Game journalists, take note.
Stop giving our games bad reviews. It hurts the company.

Thank you,
All Devs Everywhere

 

[stump sock]

I already explained why that so called journalistic ethics shouldn't be applied here.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Are you seriously claiming that sifting through public information is somehow not only a bad thing, but worse than someone sneaking into private property and pretending to be an employee in order to glean information about private projects in development?

In some industries it would result in the company being fined millions for even allowing it to happen at all. I'm with Jason in that the story is about the trespassing and not the game, but let's not pretend this dude didn't straight up break the law.

Checking the page source on a website and looking up publicly available trademark records isn't breaking the law.

Yeah, it was bad analogy and simplification and I apologize for that, but that's not the only thing GAF has done to reveal or leak something for the sake of self-amusement and hype.

The dude is a sneaky fuck and indeed broke a law, but every insider here has broken that law.

 

[jeffers]

"I didn't commit the crime, but I'm sure glad someone did!" - The story of how the internet provided everyone the degree of separation necessary to excuse themselves from the challenge of ethical ambiguity.

what ethics? its a failure of the company to stop it. The guy just went to see a developer he was a fan of, and tried his luck. he was also there ages and has barely said any real details.

is it just uk culture to not care about the 'trespassing' part so much? offices and companies to me are like semi-public, its up to them to stop you.

 

[kiguel182]

What you don't seem to get is that journalism isn't a sliding scale of importance depending on whatever subject it's about. Journalism is journalism, across all mediums, across all topics.

You seem to want video games to live in this weird bubble of protection.

And what would happen if it turned out EA/Ubisoft/Activision, or any of the AAA developers turned out to be just as corrupt, but on a smaller overall scale? Would we then be allowed to report this kind of stuff? Or would we still need to "protect the developers".

Totally average people worked at BP, and had nothing to do with the shit that went down. We could be hurting them by reporting on all their shenanigans. They were just workers, cogs in the overall machine. We need to protect them too.

I don't want someone deciding what is and what isn't news for me. History shows us when that happens bad things can result from it. You might not think is needed but a lot of us do. I don't think GMOs are a big deal as its all just science so if I walked in and found out all cereal in your county was made in a Petrie dish you would be ok if I had the news not report it? Wouldn't want the manufacturer to fire anyone because of it, right?

You guys seem to be operating on a black and white world.

There are obvious scales of importance in place. GMO's don't have the same impact as what the next setting of Assassin's Creed is going to be. And suggesting that is, frankly, ridiculous.

And as I said, if a gaming company is being corrupt, misleading people or doing anything nefarious then of course it should be reported on.

What I'm commenting is about leaks and how they are treated.

 

[Orayn]

You guys seem to be operating on a black and white world.

There are obvious scales of importance in place. GMO's don't have the same impact as what the next setting of Assassin's Creed is going to be. And suggesting that is, frankly, ridiculous.

And as I said, if a gaming company is being corrupt, misleading people or doing anything nefarious then of course it should be reported on.

What I'm commenting is about leaks and how they are treated.

As someone else pointed out, the idea that gaming journalism shouldn't report on anything that might hurt devs would disallow negative reviews and opinion pieces.

 

[kiguel182]

Hell yes!
Game journalists, take note.
Stop giving our games bad reviews. It hurts the company.

Thank you,
All Devs Everywhere

Funny how I already said that analysing games should be one of their priorities. But sure, I also enjoy taking things out of context!

Weren't you done with me?

But glad you took the time to do that great retort.

 

[old manatee]

Damn that's funny. If it was an 80's movie he would have been hired and quickly worked his way up to management.

 

[partyphone]

it's pretty clear that people want gaming sites to just be game industry mouthpieces. anything that challenges that is deemed ~*~unethical~*~.

 

[jschreier]

Except Kotaku has leaked stuff themselves. And Jason here even said that if the guy came to them he would have published them.

I don't think they should do this.

I referer to the NWY vs EW because people like to retort that this is real journalism and more websites should do it while I disagree and while some of this might apply to serious newspapers because it involves real issues I think you can't simply apply the same principle to the work of a simple company and that privacy should be respected if breaching it can hurt the company.

To be clear, I said we would publish the story about this guy getting access to the studio by wandering in with another employee. I also said that it's unlikely we'd publish any stolen assets he sent us. There's a big difference between sharing stolen information and telling the story OF someone who stole information -- I'm not sure you're getting that part.

 

[fedexpeon]

Well Jason your article was just mailed around at least 2 studios I know as a stark reminder to not open the door to random people in the lobby lol.

DE got a "free" security assessment.
I should call up EA and ask them if they want to test their security culture after this news lol.

 

[conweller]

what ethics? its a failure of the company to stop it. The guy just went to see a developer he was a fan of, and tried his luck. he was also there ages and has barely said any real details.

is it just uk culture to not care about the 'trespassing' part so much? offices and companies to me are like semi-public, its up to them to stop you.

You don't get to "try your luck" in entering someone else's property where you are clearly not allowed.

It may be a cultural thing, not sure.

 

[Afrikan]

Oh Great.. I've meaning to visit some of these game studios here in SF. Just to walk around and see the work environment.

Now this guy fucks it up for us regular honest folks. These studios might think I'd leak stuff or something.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Heck I'm in LA for this week and wanted to visit Sony Santa Monica...and maybe Sony San Diego.

Not that I would've been welcomed in the first place, but this incident sure doesn't make it easier.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

what ethics? its a failure of the company to stop it. The guy just went to see a developer he was a fan of, and tried his luck. he was also there ages and has barely said any real details.

is it just uk culture to not care about the 'trespassing' part so much? offices and companies to me are like semi-public, its up to them to stop you.

It's not just the gaming industry that needs a wake up call. Everyone has the ability to sneak into any workplace with 50+ employees, and its because everyone is there to work and not enforce the trespassing. It's security's job and if there's no security then there is no secrecy.

Example: I know folks that have snuck into Boeing and Bombardier plants and have taken a personal tour of all their productions. Now if the government or DoD find out, I'm sure they'll be probed for eternity. It happens in every industry, and only a few are foolish or brave enough to reveal their story to the masses with tattooed detail.

 

[kiguel182]

As someone else pointed out, the idea that gaming journalism shouldn't report on anything that might hurt devs would disallow negative reviews and opinion pieces.

reporting != reviewing.

As I already said, reviewing games (doing good reviews at least) should be a priority.

That has nothing to do with leaking this type of info and I never implied such thing.

If you want to read just one comment and jump to conclusions be free to do so but that's obviously not what I'm talking about.

 

[shadyspace]

A recent claim from a fan circulating the web alleges he or she spent the day with us incognito. Well, Canadians are known for being welcoming and polite!

Yeah that guy who trespassed and deceived you all was real polite.

 

[aftercompletion]

"I didn't commit the crime, but I'm sure glad someone did!" - The story of how the internet provided everyone the degree of separation necessary to excuse themselves from the challenge of ethical ambiguity.

And then there's people in this very thread encouraging people "go do it at Valve!" "go do it at Retro!"

 

[Kinsei]

Oh Great.. I've meaning to visit some of these game studios here in SF. Just to walk around and see the work environment.

Now this guy fucks it up for us regular honest folks. These studios might think I'd leak stuff or something.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Heck I'm in LA for this week and wanted to visit Sony Santa Monica...and maybe Sony San Diego.

Not that I would've been welcomed in the first place, but this incident sure doesn't make it easier.

Just try and walk in behind someone and act like you belong.

 

[Tempy]

Someone here sure likes to tell everybody what people should or shouldn't report on. News outlets should consult kiguel182 next time they have some non-PR news.