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[Chittagong]

Didn't see this excellent doc posted yet here, found it in the other forum.

http://research.microsoft.com/asia/ur/workshop05/downloads/Game Development At Microsoft.pdf

It's a presentation of some of the learnings from Halo 2 development. Some notes from me:

- All of Bungie works on one game only
- From scratch to end of preproduction 6 - 12 months
- Game takes 15 - 27 months to complete
- Considering Bungie started the new game in 10/2004 (disregarding any time off), the game could be in a teaser form (preproduction done, GDD + TDD ready) for X05.
- However, the exhaustion of the team and the learning curve of the new platform could push this back further
- The earliest theoretical release date for a new Bungie game according to the process is Q1/2006, latest Q1/2007. My money is on Christmas 2006.

Halo 2 Dev Team
- Relatively small engineering team
- Artist to engineer ratio roughly 2:1
- Lean management structure and very low overhead
- Entire studio is focused on one game

Halo 2 Dev Team Makeup
Engineers 16
Producers 4
Artists 25
Designers 5
Others 20

Development Process at Bungie
Concept and Prototypes (3-6 mo.)
- Story, art vision, technology R&D
Pre-Production (3-6 mo.)
- Core systems, production pipeline and tools
Production (6-12 mo.)
- Levels, characters, sound, game scripting
Finalization (3 mo.)
- Gameplay balancing, testing and bug fixes

-

R&D Case #1
Halo 2 Stencil Shadow Engine - Xbox
- Cast and receive shadow properly for everything
- Stencil shadow volumes - a seemingly trivial approach
- Not trivial at all for the complex and large environment of Halo 2
- Development lasted over a year due to large number of special cases
- Xbox fillrate can not support the rendering performance
- Eventually replaced by shadow buffer solution
- Triggered a major overwrite of the graphics engine

EDIT: Shit. Bad maths day. Should be 70 people in the topic, not 60.

 

[Amir0x]

Man, a Halo 3 teaser at X05 would be the absolute greatest way to hype the 360 for me.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Man, a Halo 3 teaser at X05 would be the absolute greatest way to hype the 360 for me.

Give me a 5 sec clip of that and another of next-gen Forza. That's ALL they would need to show to make me go nuts.

 

[element]

Man, a Halo 3 teaser at X05 would be the absolute greatest way to hype the 360 for me.

Halo 3 at X05 would be the worst thing ever for the launch games.

 

[Amir0x]

Halo 3 at X05 would be the worst thing ever for the launch games.

Why, it's not like people are going to decide not to buy 360 at launch because of it or not buy the games. Halo 3 wouldn't be a launch game

 

[Kobold]

It gives them more reason to hold their wallets in their pockets for when Halo 3 launches and the machine has possibly undergone a price change.

 

[Truelize]

Man, a Halo 3 teaser at X05 would be the absolute greatest way to hype the 360 for the system.

Fixed.

I think that is the best thing they could do. Show everyone the new games that are coming out at launch and then just tease people with what they really all want to see anyways. That would be nice.

 

[Amir0x]

It gives them more reason to hold their wallets in their pockets for when Halo 3 launches and the machine has possibly undergone a price change.

I honestly don't believe that for a second, but that's just me.

 

[element]

Why, it's not like people are going to decide not to buy 360 at launch because of it or not buy the games. Halo 3 wouldn't be a launch game

It would put all the attention on Halo 3 and not the launch titles, which would be bad.

Halo 3 will get its day, and people will throw a party when it is officially announced.

If they wanted to show anything of Halo 3, they should have done it when the system was shown for the first time, BUT shown other high profile titles as well, like Shadowrun, Forza 2, and other MGS properties. Much like what Nintendo and Sony did with their press conferences over the last couple years.

Make it clear to the gamers that you can ONLY play these games on this system. Then worry about releasing it later.

 

[FitzOfRage]

Why, it's not like people are going to decide not to buy 360 at launch because of it or not buy the games. Halo 3 wouldn't be a launch game

I don't know. Do you emphasize that it's coming soon, it's not coming anytime soon, or do you just let people guess? I think any of those situations could possibly hurt.

 

[The Faceless Master]

It gives them more reason to hold their wallets in their pockets for when Halo 3 launches and the machine has possibly undergone a price change.

seeing Halo 3 gives them more reason to hold out that not seeing Halo 3?

 

[TheDuce22]

Only 1 in 5 games break even according to that link. How is that even possible?? Videogaming is doomed!!! I dont feel so bad about them raising prices now.

 

[mutsu]

My money is on Christmas 2006.

That would mean Halo 3 is not gonna make it in time for the PS3 launch, which Bill Gates has promised that Halo 3 will be the PS3 killer.

 

[Cubsfan23]

They forgot to add "12 months of sitting on our ass"

 

[element]

That would mean Halo 3 is not gonna make it in time for the PS3 launch, which Bill Gates has promised that Halo 3 will be the PS3 killer.

BillG is smoking crack. Bungie sets the schedule, not Bill.

 

[Redbeard]

I don't know. Do you emphasize that it's coming soon, it's not coming anytime soon, or do you just let people guess? I think any of those situations could possibly hurt.

What about just leaving people to wonder "Where's Halo 3?"

 

[Chittagong]

They forgot to add "12 months of sitting on our ass"

More like "12 months of designing ambitious stuff that can't be executed and that causes a major re-write"

 

[Sp3eD]

Finalization (3 mo.)
- Gameplay balancing, testing and bug fixes

Yeah, maybe if this was at least 4 or 5 times the length their game would be more then an overpowered sniper whore shitfest. 8 months later and they still haven't balanced a damn thing....

 

[GhaleonEB]

More like "12 months of designing ambitious stuff that can't be executed and that causes a major re-write"

Not sure if this is a snide comment or not, but they did exactly that with Halo 2 and the lighting engine as well as level design.

Still waiting for the Halo 2 trolls to show up in force.

Yeah, maybe if this was at least 4 or 5 times the length their game would be more then an overpowered sniper whore shitfest. 8 months later and they still haven't balanced a damn thing....

Too late! (hint: it's called the Auto Update. Look it up!)

 

[Chiggs]

I just pray that the game isn't rushed, and clocks in at about 18-20 hours.

Oh, and ditch the SMG - it's fucking gay. A goddamn seven foot cyborg should not be having kickback issues with a FUCKING SMG FOR FUCKITY-FUCK'S SAKE.

 

[TheTurtleTitan]

I'd like the SMG more if ammo didn't go away so fast.

By the way, has Halo 3 ever been confirmed in development? I know it's coming, but was it ever officially announced in some way, like at a press conference?

 

[duderon]

I'd like to see all this info pertaining to Halo: CE.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

BillG is smoking crack. Bungie sets the schedule, not Bill.

Hehehe. I forgot who at Bungie had to break the news to Bill that he doesn't set schedule. Was it Jamie, Joe, or Jones? I forgot who is the go between MS and Bungie. Anyway, actual production starts in September, so I guess they could have something to show if need be.

Bungie will never be more than a one team developer. Jones doesn't like working that way, to put it nicely.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Bungie will never be more than a one team developer. Jones doesn't like working that way, to put it nicely.

I would not be so sure.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

The MGS2 trailer at E3 2000 certainly didn't hurt PS2's launch, now did it?

 

[Mr. Lemming]

Well wasn't there a bit of tension between Bungie and Bungie West concerning Oni? They've gone down that road already.

 

[boredJonathan]

The MGS2 trailer at E3 2000 certainly didn't hurt PS2's launch, now did it?

Quoted for great truth.

Halo is officially one of the properites of gaming at large. Announcing this game, and giving us a decent trailer would only spread word of mouth about the X360, and get people looking at what else is there. They don't need to hype up the trailer, it'll speak for itself. Put all the effort in to pumping the launch games, play the Halo 3 trailer, and call it a show.

 

[Prine]

WOW, i havent really thought about Halo 3 yet. Holy shit a trailer at X05 would send shockwaves around the gaming world.

Id rather MS show more PDzero and save Halo3 announcement for e3

 

[Joe]

so they doubled in size for one game?

 

[Tarazet]

This month's OPM taught me an interesting piece of trivia: Bungie's first games were for the Pippin, a short-lived console that was a joint venture between Apple and Bandai...

 

[GhaleonEB]

so they doubled in size for one game?

At least 30 people were added to Bungie during Halo 2, in addition about a dozen people from either other MSG divisions or contract help.

The cinematics team passed the pre-production time working on the cinematic on the Map Pack, and the designers/artists did extra maps. From the Bungie chatter they are in full production mode now, with all but some of the networking team doing full-time work on "Bungie's Next Project".

They are also hiring for over a dozen positions.

And I can't believe they'd hold X05 without showing Halo 3. I'd call it a sure thing, and if they don't show/announce it, then MS is blowing a major opportunity.

 

[Mr. Lemming]

This month's OPM taught me an interesting piece of trivia: Bungie's first games were for the Pippin, a short-lived console that was a joint venture between Apple and Bandai...

First console games. First game would be a clone of Pong called Gnop! on the Mac.

http://www.bungie.net/Inside/CustomPage.aspx?section=History&subsection=Main&page=1

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

And I can't believe they'd hold X05 without showing Halo 3. I'd call it a sure thing, and if they don't show/announce it, then MS is blowing a major opportunity.

I'm siding with the guys saying that it would probably be a bad thing, not least of all because they are also publishing another game in the same genre that's so far failed to impress much. A Halo3 announcement, let alone any sort of footage, could kill off a lot of interest in PD0. The most they should do is confirm Halo3 as being in development (which I think they've already done?) and hope to hell they can polish up PD0 in time.

 

[Version 3.0]

Only 1 in 5 games break even according to that link. How is that even possible?? Videogaming is doomed!!! I dont feel so bad about them raising prices now.

That's complete BS. Don't buy into it.

Besides, raising prices doesn't necessarily equate to more profit, because higher prices hurt your sales volume. It only makes sense, even from a business perspective, to raise game prices on games that you're sure will sell just as well at the higher price. If the higher price is going to hurt your sales, you need to lower it, not raise it. There's always going to be a balance there, of course, but videogames are already expensive.

If I were a small developer or publisher, I wouldn't want prices to go up. That's only going to ensure that the big games are the only ones that will sell, even moreso than that's already the case. That's why EA and Activision are the most vocal about wanting game prices to go up--they've got the licenses and franchises (and the greed).

Believe me, there's no reason to raise prices at the moment beyond corporate greed.

 

[shpankey]

I'm with element on this all the way. Showing it there would be a bad thing. Halo 3 should be saved for another day.

 

[GhaleonEB]

That's complete BS. Don't buy into it.

Besides, raising prices doesn't necessarily equate to more profit, because higher prices hurt your sales volume. It only makes sense, even from a business perspective, to raise game prices on games that you're sure will sell just as well at the higher price. If the higher price is going to hurt your sales, you need to lower it, not raise it. There's always going to be a balance there, of course, but videogames are already expensive.

If I were a small developer or publisher, I wouldn't want prices to go up. That's only going to ensure that the big games are the only ones that will sell, even moreso than that's already the case. That's why EA and Activision are the most vocal about wanting game prices to go up--they've got the licenses and franchises (and the greed).

Believe me, there's no reason to raise prices at the moment beyond corporate greed.

We may be reading that wrong. It could be saying that 20% of games don't make money, not "only 20% of games make money."

 

[teh_pwn]

So when the game engine is done, the game engineers just sit on their ass and wait for the game to be done before working on the next engine? Makes sense.

 

[Neex]

So when the game engine is done, the game engineers just sit on their ass and wait for the game to be done before working on the next engine? Makes sense.

Yeah, because Bungie is comprised of a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings and hacks who don't have a clue what they're doing. :roll eyes:

 

[pollo]

If they released Halo 3 at launch I'd buy an Xbox 360 at launch day.

Im gonna hold out till they get Halo 3 on the system.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

Halo 2 Stencil Shadow Engine - Xbox

- Development lasted over a year due to large number of special cases
- Xbox fillrate can not support the rendering performance
- Eventually replaced by shadow buffer solution
- Triggered a major overwrite of the graphics engine

So they spent a year on something they couldn't use, is this correct? And showing off stuff the hardware couldn't match tsk, tsk, I thought Sony only did that?

 

[GhaleonEB]

So they spent a year on something they couldn't use, is this correct? And showing off stuff the hardware couldn't match tsk, tsk, I thought Sony only did that?

It was running on the hardware, lol.

What it was not doing was rendering AI, more than one character, weapon effects, physics or more than a narrow hallway and room.

The E3 demo was also on XBox hardware (obviously) but they scrapped the level in part because only a few enemies and vehicles could be on screen at a time with all the effects turned on; the environments were too big.

Such is life. Hopefully they will scale the ambition to the 360 better.

 

[Instigator]

Oni didn't have 60 people working on it, no way. Those numbers of employees have to have grown since then.

 

[jimbo]

Damn Halo 3 on 360....drooooool. The AI was already amazing in the first 2, I can only imagine what Bungie is going to come up with this time. And now they will finally have the power to bring the graphics up to the gameplay's level. Most anticipated 360 game for me by far.

 

[teh_pwn]

Yeah, because Bungie is comprised of a bunch of lazy good-for-nothings and hacks who don't have a clue what they're doing. :roll eyes:

Way to put words in my mouth.

Where did I ever suggest that Bungie was lazy? Can you read?

I was replying to the title that bungie only works on one game on a time, which I think is absurd.

I should probably read the topic, but I don't have time.

 

[Neex]

...the game engineers just sit on their ass and wait...

I don't know how else you're supposed to read that...

 

[Nightbringer]

The question that is rounding inside my small head is how many money they win. I remember that everyone on the team has a salary of 3000 euros per month.

This is 4 milions of dollars in money and I want to know why the cost of the games is beyond this numbers when the companies talks about their projects.

 

[Gattsu25]

- Artist to engineer ratio roughly 2:1
Halo 2 Dev Team Makeup
Engineers 16
Producers 4
Artists 25
Designers 5
Others 20

Most interesting part

 

[dark10x]

Yeah, maybe if this was at least 4 or 5 times the length their game would be more then an overpowered sniper whore shitfest. 8 months later and they still haven't balanced a damn thing....

The hell? Halo 2 is one of the most balanced and well thought out FPS games ever released...

If you are getting owned by something, there is always going to be a counter. Obviously you are unable to think of a way to overcome the rifle (which is tough sometimes)...but that doesn't mean you can't get around it and destroy sniper rifle whores.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

I would not be so sure.

I would. There was tension during Oni and most of that team just got absorbed into the Halo team. When they tried to do a second team AGAIN for Phoenix and there was tension again the team disbanded. Hardy, who is a great guy, didn't want to deal with the drama anymore and left for MS's RAT division in MGS.

Jones ain't gonna let a second team happen.

 

[FiRez]

that explains why halo2 feels so rushed. specially the campaign mode