-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
"Hand drawn animation is inherently superior" is the most bs claim I've ever seen.
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
Toy Story still holds up after over 20 years. You know, it's as if a good story and creators recognising the limitations of the technique, you get timeless stuff.
copelandmaster
Member
Nope. I'd like to hope that 60-120fps and beyond movies are the future
The more frames the better. Effects, storytelling, design, physical props etc. are all separate issues, but people like to pretend that HFR was the reason they didn't like the Hobbit movies. The only reason people are fine with 24fps is because that's all they've ever known, its the default. Just like 60fps for sports and soaps is the default.
Bringing it back to 2D vs 3D - 2D is labor intensive, I get it. Making stuff like Akira was like pulling teeth. 3DCG's only excuse excuse (given built in tools like software interpolation) is down to "rendering more frames = more hardware power required = more money".
(PC) Games don't have an excuse, given the rendering cost is on the individual gamer. A recent personal nitpick I have is Tekken 7. Namco went through all that trouble migrating their assets from their old proprietary engine to UE4. They went through their animations and engine code with a fine tooth comb to make sure that everything looked and performed prim and proper for the hype slow mos (that slow the game down as much as ~8x speed - a sight to behold on my 120fps ulmb monitor)... and then didn't include higher (visual) fps caps divisible/compatible with the 60fps (input) logic (120, 180, 240, etc.). Total missed opportunity.
No one's discounting the power of good storytelling but the CG people in Toy Story looked terrible when it came out and aged like milk. If they only focused on the toys and just showed the peoples ankles this would be a visually timeless story. As it is now its a great story held back by the crude technology of the time.
Yes. The humans look off now (but apart from the baby aren't jarring imo), but my point was this imo doesn't hold the movie back now at all. It still works, in part because the humans play a minor role as Pixar realised the limits od early 3D.
It is still a masterpiece.
ken_matthews
Member
This is so creepy, what is suppose to be happening here?
ButteryPie
Member
Notice how all of those screenshots draw attention to the ugliness of the human characters.
Also notice how the human characters are rarely shown for extended periods of time in the film.
That's what I take "Understanding the limitations" of the medium to be.
sephiroth7x
Member
I much prefer hand drawn animation but that's just my opinion because I like how it moves, quirks and mistakes included.
However, I appreciate any kind of animation done well as whatever medium you create it in, it is a major skill.
However, I appreciate any kind of animation done well as whatever medium you create it in, it is a major skill.
Paperman is the weirdest "mix" of 2d and 3d I think I've ever heard about. i.e. the movie was basically 3d rendered, then artists sorta pseudo "rotoscoped" some of the keyframes to draw outlines, which were then fed back into the computer and the tweens generated from them. Weird shit.
MLP the movie is basically 2d characters thrown into 3d sets. That's what I'd usually expect from a "mix". Its an interesting look too.
Right, but if you compare even the toys of Toy Story to something like Snow White, done nearly a eighty years ago at this point, it's clear Toy Story does not hold up after 20 years, animation wise. That was the point the original poster was getting at.
CG simply doesn't hold up as well as traditional animation does, even when comparing some of the earliest CG to the earliest traditional animation.
Megawarrior
Member
Why are we comparing low budget tv shows that shit out episodes every millisecond (and from completely different decades) to multi million dollar movies?
Paprika has yet to be topped for me. So trippy.That has to be on the of the weakest fucking OPs ever. At least make some valid comparisons between great animation and great CGI.
| Praxis |
Banned
The first animation that impressed me and still does today was Pinnochio. The end sequence is just amazing.
Exctly.
Snowwhite isn't actualy 'early' animation. The tehniques were allready quite advanced by then. Gertie the dinosaur and Little Nemo predate SW two decades. And it shows.
As CGI gets better with fewer 'leaps' I am convinced stuff like Up, Moana, HTTYD, ... will still hold up in 20 years time.
I am also pretty sure that if you show a kid Toy story today the movie still works. The CGI has aged yes, but it does not deter from the quality of the movie as Pixar had the right idea focussing on plastic main characterd and keeping humans as much out of the picture as possible.
Monocle
Member
I think hand drawn animation actually does offer advantages in expressive power, stylistic flexibility, and lasting appeal.
That will likely change as the limitations of technology and budget fade with the development of cheaper and more powerful tools. Assuming the rate of tech development doesn't hit an unforeseen ceiling, there will come a time when even small independent studios can produce anything from photorealistic imagery to hyperreal Pixar-style cartoon worlds to Okami-style animation that simulates traditional media.
That will likely change as the limitations of technology and budget fade with the development of cheaper and more powerful tools. Assuming the rate of tech development doesn't hit an unforeseen ceiling, there will come a time when even small independent studios can produce anything from photorealistic imagery to hyperreal Pixar-style cartoon worlds to Okami-style animation that simulates traditional media.
Snow White is absolutely early animation. It's the first ever American animated feature film ever released, just like Toy Story was with CGI. It's also the first non-lost "traditionally animated" feature film, in that it didn't use cut out or silhouette or stop motion or hybrid. Even if you compare Toy Story to the first feature films (that still exist), such as The Adventures of Prince Achmed or The Tale of the Fox, they still look better than Toy Story.
And if you want to use Gertie the Dinosaur or Little Nemo, or other Winsor McCay stuff (or even older Disney stuff, ala Merry Melodies) you're going to have to use older CGI works as well. I'm talking Money For Nothing, and '93 Veggie Tales and projects like that. In that case, traditional animation still holds up better.
And as far as something like Up and other Disney/Pixar stuff holding up 20 years from now, we'll see. CG stuff has a tendency to age relatively quickly to what we would expect, as we've seen from tons of CG films and video games in the past. It's not a mark against CG or anything. It's more because CG already tries to look closer to reality than traditional animation, so it gets stuck in a very unfortunate uncanny valley situation. People are less likely to closely observe 2D stuff, and so it naturally holds up better.
Pinnochio is insane. The leap between Snow White and it just baffles my mind.The first animation that impressed me and still does today was Pinnochio. The end sequence is just amazing.
I don't buy the reading that the creators were going for a John Kricfalusi grotesque aesthetic for their human characters. Sure Sid was the main antagonist so he was slightly meaner looking but all the other human characters that have multiple scenes are meant to be appealing.
Acrylic7
Member
Not going to lie, using this thread solely as an excuse to post some GIFs of what I believe is the most beautiful animated movie ever made, The Illusionist.
And also this 2015 post by MMarston that I found while googling for gifs:
I just got this along with Ernest and Celestine a month ago, still need to watch it. Cant wait to watch the special features.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
Not going to lie, using this thread solely as an excuse to post some GIFs of what I believe is the most beautiful animated movie ever made, The Illusionist.
And also this 2015 post by MMarston that I found while googling for gifs:
It's amazing. But some of the 3D additions (vehicles etc) clash a bit with the rest, I thought the last time I saw it.
It's the first feature animation, but I would argue the technique was pretty advanced allready by then compared to CGI was with Toy Story (where, I agree, the first shorts are ugly as hell)
I agree CGI has a bigger problem with aging, as it's a technique dat evolves in greater steps. My argument is that stuff like Toy Story, which has an incredible story, and where CGI is mostly used in a smart way, with attention for the limitations, can stand the test of time perfectly. Toy Story to me hasn't lost an ounce of it's power it had in 1995, because it's filmmaking craft is exceptional. ( Snow White on the other hand might still have pretty good looks, but the movie itself has become very dull imo).
And I firmly believe the current CGI-output will not have the same 'gap' with the CGI movies of 2037, as Toy Story has with the 2015 output. Every year they do look better and better, but the difference is minimal. I mean, Ratatouille is allready 10 years old an it still looks incredible, even if Moana has more incredible effects.
2D or 3D, both ask incredible craft and talent to look really good, and I absolutely love both and can enjoy and respect the craft of both. I'm sad 2D has lost foothold in the US, but I'm happy Asia and Europe still keep the tradition alive with incredible movies.
sephiroth7x
Member
I think the key to all animation is using them to their limitations...
CGI animation makes things like crowds and hectic scenes a lot easier for animators which means they can make 'bigger' pictures in terms of scope. (Movies like Monsters Inc etc. have so many different designs to construct and animate it would have been a long winded - but possible - task to hand drawn).
Hand Drawn movies tend to have more character, but also tend to be more personal. Focussing on fewer characters unless absolutely necessary.
That has always been my understanding, however a lot of my understanding when it comes to the hand-drawn/CGI debate has come from listening to The Simpsons Commentaries where the animators always moaned when the script called for crowds or extremely dense scenes...
CGI animation makes things like crowds and hectic scenes a lot easier for animators which means they can make 'bigger' pictures in terms of scope. (Movies like Monsters Inc etc. have so many different designs to construct and animate it would have been a long winded - but possible - task to hand drawn).
Hand Drawn movies tend to have more character, but also tend to be more personal. Focussing on fewer characters unless absolutely necessary.
That has always been my understanding, however a lot of my understanding when it comes to the hand-drawn/CGI debate has come from listening to The Simpsons Commentaries where the animators always moaned when the script called for crowds or extremely dense scenes...
How can anyone possibly generalize and think one is objectively better than the other.
The best examples use whatever is the best application for what they're trying to convey. Just look at something like The Garden of Words which blends in 3D animation without it feeling out of place.
The best examples use whatever is the best application for what they're trying to convey. Just look at something like The Garden of Words which blends in 3D animation without it feeling out of place.
Rudimental
Member
"Those ships travelling through the tunnel there, it's not traditional hand-drawn animation. It's... witchcraft."
Hand-drawn always looks better to me, always. IT also, as many others have said, is far more resilient to the test of time.
Toy Story doesn't look great anymore technically. It's presented with heart, and acted/told perfectly which is timeless, but the visuals definitely don't hold up perfectly.
Toy Story doesn't look great anymore technically. It's presented with heart, and acted/told perfectly which is timeless, but the visuals definitely don't hold up perfectly.
llien
Member
Which type of animation is better is soo subjective.
I must admit indifference to Moana gifs posted in this thread (including the "most complex scene"). While I appreciate the effort by designers, there is something about computer supported 3D that I cannot express, yet dislike.
I must admit indifference to Moana gifs posted in this thread (including the "most complex scene"). While I appreciate the effort by designers, there is something about computer supported 3D that I cannot express, yet dislike.
But gifs, it's about fascinating gifs.
To this day I am still mad we never got a full movie using this technique.
I'll just say that I'm glad people took the thread into an interesting direction. Because the point you're trying to dispute here is so silly it isn't worth a millisecond of thought.
I wonder if people would be up for a graphical remaster of movies such as Toy Story.
On topic. Usually any sort of statement that draws such distinct lines are bull shit. Even if there was a point in time that such statements are true it is still a ridiculous thing to say and it shows when you look at the statement from today and likely more so going forward.
Contributing to gifs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg9JGIiSSsQ
To me it isn't about the animation style but whether the results make you feel anything when you watch it.
Sneaky edit.
Ryan Woodward's Thought of You is great little short too. He also has a Making Of video that was interesting.
On topic. Usually any sort of statement that draws such distinct lines are bull shit. Even if there was a point in time that such statements are true it is still a ridiculous thing to say and it shows when you look at the statement from today and likely more so going forward.
Contributing to gifs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg9JGIiSSsQ
To me it isn't about the animation style but whether the results make you feel anything when you watch it.
Sneaky edit.
Ryan Woodward's Thought of You is great little short too. He also has a Making Of video that was interesting.
crazy monkey
Banned
I need a good gif on this
kung fu panda movies are preetyyyyyyyyy. 2 especially .
Technically it has been surpassed. Nobody is arguaing against that. I would argue that artistically it hasnt, and the film is still as powerfull as it was when it came out. And thats for a big part due to Pixar choosing toys as protagonists and being smart with how much humans they use, show and how they show them.
But it doesn look horendous. It looks perfectly fine, and still absolutely works as a piece of art. Yes, as I said, the CG of today is way better and the leap from TS1 to TS3 is enormous, but this doesnt detract at all from the quality of the film imo, because it is so artfully made, even on the animation side.
People here seem to argue that old CGI movies will become unwatchable. My argument is, they arent if they are well made.
I was going to make some quip about how its not a fair compariosn because Walt basically used slave labor to keep prices down, but we still basically do the same thing now.
It's from Paprika. Highly recommended! Go watch it, then you'll understand. If you need to know before: The film constantly changes between the dream world and the real world. The main is actually two, her character changes between the worlds: Chiba (irl) / Paprika (dream world). In this scene,
Paprika is captured by an admirer/creep, that skins her to reveal her real world identity. He's a butterfly collector, so it's staged like he's opening a cocoon forcefully. Paprika is pinned down on a table, like you do with precious butterflies. It's also a rape metaphor, since the creep has a long time crush on Chiba/Paprika.
How is her ass in front of her?I wonder if people would be up for a graphical remaster of movies such as Toy Story.
On topic. Usually any sort of statement that draws such distinct lines are bull shit. Even if there was a point in time that such statements are true it is still a ridiculous thing to say and it shows when you look at the statement from today and likely more so going forward.
Contributing to gifs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg9JGIiSSsQ
To me it isn't about the animation style but whether the results make you feel anything when you watch it.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Late reply, but I've tried to watch DBZ a few times, the animation is shit, with corners cut everywhere, and stuff goes off model constantly.
Lol.
Wut.
This isn't even touching on the minute long screaming poses that substitute for plot, or the least interesting backgrounds in anything ever.
Now there are good reasons WHY the animation is shit (weekly show, limited budget etc), but that doesnt change the fact that it's shit, get me?
Spuck-uk
Banned
The animation in Paprika is staggeringly good, and it's a great film in general. In fact, everything Satoshi Kon made was good to amazing.
Spiritual_Chaos
Banned
I wonder if people would be up for a graphical remaster of movies such as Toy Story.
On topic. Usually any sort of statement that draws such distinct lines are bull shit. Even if there was a point in time that such statements are true it is still a ridiculous thing to say and it shows when you look at the statement from today and likely more so going forward.
Contributing to gifs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg9JGIiSSsQ
Saw that as an older lady with breasts hanging down under her shirt first.
Classic hand drawn animation will always be my favorite.
I do remember being taken away by "Wonderful Days" (Sky Blue) back when I saw it now 14 years ago. What a wonderful little hodge-podge of techniques. I still love seeing that one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPqLvfcusQ
I do remember being taken away by "Wonderful Days" (Sky Blue) back when I saw it now 14 years ago. What a wonderful little hodge-podge of techniques. I still love seeing that one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPqLvfcusQ
got this film on dvd too
The blend of 2d and 3d was amazing to me at the time and i remember reading that it took them 7 years to animate the film due to the specific techniques they were using.Speedydonut
Member
We just posting animated gifs? Here's a French animated film Lascars.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I remember back when KFP2 was just announced and someone in GAF said "wow Lord Shen is a terrible design - he looks so busy and the tail feathers are distracting". I was like, "well duh?!"
They are, and they are so beautifully animated. Hell, their shorts are also pretty well done too yet no one is mentioning them (the style they used for flashbacks).
And yet that mindset still exists, as we even see in this thread.
An impressive trainwreck that have many posts rather than driveby.
That's two completely different arguments. It still working as a film doesn't mean the visuals are completely dated. There are a lot of movies, even non-cgi ones, that have not aged well in terms of visuals but people overlook that aspect if the storytelling is still great, which people will do with Toy Story, but it won't make the visuals not horrible and there's nothing wrong with that. Not everything is age proof.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Here's better examples:
What are these from?
First one is Yozakura Quartet, second is Sound! Euphonium.
They are dated, but they are not horendous. That was my argument. It actually still is watchable visually today, because it is well directed, dessigned and animated (the act of making the dated models move), and the CGI is used with its limitations in mind (hence the plastic characters, but also the use of just camera movements that are only possible with real cameras too, as to avoid emphasising its computer drawn...) Yes, CGI has taken big strides in the twenty+ years that have passed, but it doesnt suddenly make Toy Story unwatchable. The great story is the icing on the cake that turns this into an evergreen.
Again, some here seem to claim that due to CGI being prone to age (because of the big leaps it takes technologically), early CGI films are becoming or will be unwatchable. That is imo not the case with wellmade films as Toy Story, even if their technology age.