Support NeoGAF

[gelf]

Its such a subjective thing depending on whose playing. Dark Souls did kick my ass at times but I always felt capable of beating it, the game suits how my mind works. Put me in front of any moderately difficult shooter though and I'll die even more as I'm terrible with a crosshair and if you give me a bullet hell shmup then I'm never finishing that game in a million years unless it gives me unlimited continues and forgiving check points.

 

[dog$]

link to that Pooh thread please?

It was posted in this thread 25 posts before you wrote this.

Hard doesn't mean unbeatable, which seems to be the premise the OP is coming from.

No, I think OP's premise is that these lists are calling certain games hard when, in the grand scheme of things and full spectrum of games, they really aren't.

Contra sans cheat code.

Case in point.

 

[reKon]

Aren'y the Ninja Gaiden games supposed to be up there?

 

[autoduelist]

So, why is that? Why do these games, which are objectively NOT the hardest ever made, enjoy this notoriety? Is it just because they're hard, but good (or popular)? Is it because they're hard, but not impossible?

Do we just not want to admit that the hardest game of all time is probably some awful movie or toy licensed piece of crap?

Because the list is meant to include games that are 'designed' to be relatively difficult, not games that are difficult due to terrible design, bugs, and bad gameplay.

Being able to be beaten has nothing to do with it, most non-infinite games are designed to be beaten, and it's part of 'good design'.

Nethack is a very hard game. I've beaten it without scum saving. That does not change the fact that it is a very hard game and beating it was a major accomplishment. Those that have mastered the game can beat it regularly. That just means they're experts, not that the game is easy.

 

[ninjablade]

But Battletoads? I think it really IS a tough game. And no, I'm not one of those wieners that quit at the level 3 speederbikes. I've gotten to the last level without a Game Genie. Battletoads is difficult thanks to poor design. Too many times the flow of the game requires you to be killed by an obstacle you had no way of knowing about, and then surpassing it (hopefully) on the next life. That kind of design makes the game a war on your patience and memory instead of just a test of your reflexes.

And I remember Ghosts and Goblins being REALLY hard, but it's been so long since I've played it that maybe I should go back re-test it. But knowing the dick move it pulls on you at the end of the game, I already sort of know it won't be worth it.

yea i beat battle toads, game was hard as fuck, and Ghosts and Goblins is just impossible.

 

[Roto13]

Ranking games based on difficulty doesn't really work, because the actual hardest games are the busted-ass crap games of the 80's and 90's that nobody played because they suck.

 

[BadAss2961]

In the last 2 or 3 generations, mostly everything has been designed to be beaten by every class of gamers. Souls seems hard now because it just happens to be one of the exceptions.

Old school games will always be the hardest. Many of them didn't play fair.

 

[Orochinagis]

Porobably Ikaruga with the secret boss and ghost and goblins 1 for me

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Ranking games based on difficulty doesn't really work, because the actual hardest games are the busted-ass crap games of the 80's and 90's that nobody played because they suck.

It would seem disingenuous to mention those in a discussion of the "hardest games" though precisely because of that. No one mentions them because when someone asks "What's the hardest game" an implicit qualifier is usually that it's playable. Those other games aren't so much "hard" as they just are "broken." They don't really belong in such a conversation.

 

[dog$]

Aren'y the Ninja Gaiden games supposed to be up there?

Arguably, which is probably why it was cited in the OP.

Nethack is a very hard game.

I fully agree.

Therefore, shouldn't you see this game mentioned at least as often in a given "Hardest Games of All Time" list as you do a given Mega Man or Ghouls 'N Ghosts game? I would think so. Yet we don't.

 

[suddenlyissoon]

Try Kid Chameleon

 

[Bumpers]

Play one of the Street Fighter II clones from the mid 90's against the AI. I have only seen one person beat the final boss in Kaiser Knuckle.

https://youtu.be/aod5YACZ5vI?t=187 pretty much sums it up.

To make it worse the game uses 5 kick and punch variations. Hope you know how to combo with light, medium, heavy, extreme and super punches/kicks!

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Battletoads in Battlemaniacs. Holy fuck, is it even possible to complete that goddamn game?

 

[Fugu]

Nethack is a very hard game. I've beaten it without scum saving. That does not change the fact that it is a very hard game and beating it was a major accomplishment. Those that have mastered the game can beat it regularly. That just means they're experts, not that the game is easy.

Nethack is a funny example because it's considered easy by early Roguelike standards and yet it's still incredibly difficult to complete. One thing that is definitely true is that if you were to throw out all of the games that are difficult because they are nigh-unplayable, you would be largely left with a list of Roguelikes and SHMUPs.

 

[Gunslinger]

None of the games today compare to the difficulties of old games like battletoads, contra etc.

 

[bomblord1]

QWOP

 

[monlo]

damn you

 

[Gee]

As a moderately skilled gamer I platinumed demon's souls, Dark Souls 1 & 2 so yeah these games take time but aren't that dificult.

 

[Stereogatari]

100% depiction of the game

Kills me everytime.

 

[Kouriozan]

I think I completed that Pooh game but lost my sanity for 6 months. *-*

 

[RiverBed]

This fucking thing:

 

[Roto13]

It would seem disingenuous to mention those in a discussion of the "hardest games" though precisely because of that. No one mentions them because when someone asks "What's the hardest game" an implicit qualifier is usually that it's playable. Those other games aren't so much "hard" as they just are "broken." They don't really belong in such a conversation.

"Broken" is somewhat subjective. A lot of those games can technically be finished with a lot of memorization and luck, but nobody played them anyway.

 

[Shion]

I'm convinced that 90% of the people who say that Adventure of Link is "insanely difficult!" haven't actually played the game. They probably tried it for a few minutes on an emulator and gave up before getting past the learning curve phase.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

The winnie the pooh game was legendary.
I remember the gaf thread and never getting up to cristopher robin.
Is the game still up? I want to see if a friend of mine that is an amazing gamer with the majority if genre could beat cristopher robin.

 

[woopWOOP]

I'd say Battletoads does fall under the 'hard because it's bullshit' category. It's the main reason people remember that piece of shit game in the first place. Everything else on OP's list are/were popular games that happen to be pretty difficult now and then (Megaman tho, really? Megaman X maybe)

Anyway, I thought the thread was going to be about the "OF ALL TIME" part. I always thought that sounded so... arrogant? Who knows what the future brings. But I guess 'Hardest game up till now' doesn't have the same clickbait ring to it.

 

[Tain]

For example, just this past weekend, I played through Street Fighter 2010 (using save states on the Wii U) and Spider-Man & Venom: Maximum Carnage on the SNES (using a game genie for infinite lives). I can't even imagine trying to beat these without these types of cheats. They're certainly much, much more difficult than any of the games above with these hardcore reputations. And there are certainly far tougher examples.

Actually, I don't think SF2010 is super-brutal. It's easier than Ninja Gaiden at least, and from your list it's definitely easier than the arcade Makaimura games.

Do we just not want to admit that the hardest game of all time is probably some awful movie or toy licensed piece of crap?

This is a good point to bring up. A lot of enthusiasts fail to understand that difficulty is one of many tools for making something engaging/immersive (often a hella powerful one), and you'll see a lot of people react uncomfortably with the thought of a bad and hard game being considered "truly hard" (one of the reasons you'll hear the phrase "artificial difficulty", but not the only one). The reality is that making a game that would be extremely hard or impossible to master is relatively easy, as you could just make some aesthetically barren ludicrous reaction test.

 

[To Far Away Times]

I think the hardest games would be something like getting grandmaster in TGM3, 2-All in DoDonPachi DaiOuJou, Futari 1.01 Ultra, etc. Games that have been beaten, but only by very few people.

Takes years of practice I would assume.

 

[mcz117chief]

Wizardry IV: The Return of Werdna is the hardest game that is possible to play to completion that I know of. It makes basically everything mentioned in this thread seem like a joke.

I agree with you (at least I think I do, I know some Wizardry games are brutal). Also, Ninja Gaiden 3 Razor's Edge is hard as a mother even on medium, anything beyond that is just borderline impossible.

 

[JimmyJones]

Anyone who says Dark Souls isn't hard is lying as far as I'm concerned. Sure you can learn the patterns, but playing it blind you are going to die.

 

[gai_shain]

I think some fan game is probably one of the hardest game there is

 

[dog$]

Anyone who says Dark Souls isn't hard is lying as far as I'm concerned. Sure you can learn the patterns, but playing it blind you are going to die.

Anyone who says Dark Souls is among the hardest games of all time is lying as far as I'm concerned. Sure, if you're playing it blind you're going to die, but you can learn the patterns.

 

[capitalCORN]

The real answer is Bayou Billy. Even with the intervention of a device, you've got a LONG, TEDIOUS road ahead of you.

Also power to Wiz IV: Return or Werdna. Like 90% of gamers never made it past the FIRST ROOM of that game.

 

[JSub11]

 

[Morfeo]

In this recent era of Dark Souls' popularity, the topic of difficult video games has come up quite often. I constantly see Demon's / Dark Souls referred to as "one of the most difficult games ever made", or variants on the phrase. The same is true of a number of games. Google "most difficult video game of all time", and you'll find plenty of top 10 lists. And if you look over them, you'll find a handful of games well represented on said lists. Such as:

Ghosts n Goblins / Ghouls n Ghosts
Battletoads
Dark Souls / Demon's Souls
F-Zero GX
Castlevania
Ninja Gaiden (either the old school or more recent 3D ones)
Mega Man

And even, laughably, Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.

Which brings me to my point: these games are not that difficult. They can be beaten. I've beaten most of them, many times. I'm not trying to brag. I'm good at games, but not great. I'm not on the top of any leaderboards. I don't do no-death playthroughs or speedruns. I hold no records. I'm in awe of true prodigies (or idiot savants, my ego insists) who completely master games and make the rest of us look like amateurs.

But these games are well-designed, and they're designed to be won. I beat them by learning that design well enough to win. Some games are not designed in such a way.

For example, just this past weekend, I played through Street Fighter 2010 (using save states on the Wii U) and Spider-Man & Venom: Maximum Carnage on the SNES (using a game genie for infinite lives). I can't even imagine trying to beat these without these types of cheats. They're certainly much, much more difficult than any of the games above with these hardcore reputations. And there are certainly far tougher examples.

So, why is that? Why do these games, which are objectively NOT the hardest ever made, enjoy this notoriety? Is it just because they're hard, but good (or popular)? Is it because they're hard, but not impossible?

Do we just not want to admit that the hardest game of all time is probably some awful movie or toy licensed piece of crap?

I definitely agree with OP on most of these games. Dark Souls, Demons Souls, Zelda 2, Ninja Gaiden, Mega Man and Castlevania are all beatable. But I could personally never beat F-Zero GX, Battletoads and the Ghost and Ghoublin-games. I also think Castlevania 3 is one of the harder games that are still fair and possible to beat.

 

[JimmyJones]

Anyone who says Dark Souls is among the hardest games of all time is lying as far as I'm concerned. Sure, if you're playing it blind you're going to die, but you can learn the patterns.

Where do you draw the line then? The same could be said for every hard game.

 

[Manu]

Tomb Raider 3 on PS1 was hard as nails too.

Not only much harder than 2, but they brought back limited saves. Bullshit.

 

[Stiler]

Dragon;s Lair was a quarter sucking machine.

 

[SpookyFries]

http://youtu.be/KaLrF6T562w

 

[Speevy]

Dark Souls demands attention. That's all. You pay attention and figure out what's going on, and everything is easy.

 

[UncleSporky]

With the advent of mobile gaming and the rise of indies, I wonder if there are some games out there that are legit just about unbeatable, the actual hardest games of all time, that just haven't been beaten because nobody knows about them, and they got lost in the shuffle.

 

[dog$]

Where do you draw the line then? The same could be said for every hard game.

Well, something like this for starters -

I think the hardest games would be something like getting grandmaster in TGM3, 2-All in DoDonPachi DaiOuJou, Futari 1.01 Ultra, etc. Games that have been beaten, but only by very few people.

Takes years of practice I would assume.

How many people have beaten Battletoads? Probably, in the course of the past few decades, a few hundred thousand. Let's even assume a mere ten thousand, for the sake of argument.

Those games quoted? Only a few dozen in the world have done that, at most.

However, as previously stated, listing those latter kinds of games doesn't make for an interesting list to click on. I mean, c'mon, "Mushihimesama"? How do you even pronounce that? Is that even a real title? Let's just tack on Zelda II and go home. Everyone has heard of that game.

 

[Toa TAK]

http://youtu.be/KaLrF6T562w

https://youtu.be/DvhKRN-WrYQ

 

[Boogdud]

And I remember Ghosts and Goblins being REALLY hard, but it's been so long since I've played it that maybe I should go back re-test it. But knowing the dick move it pulls on you at the end of the game, I already sort of know it won't be worth it.

I beat Ghosts and Goblins on the NES (legit beat) and still remember running through the house screaming about it as an 11 year old. I then beat it in the arcade as well. I remember thinking at the time it was really hard (in an age of quarter eating machines).

I revisited it a couple years back, it's way harder than I even remembered.

Ghosts is legit hard.

Well, something like this for starters -

How many people have beaten Battletoads? Probably, in the course of the past few decades, a few hundred thousand. Let's even assume a mere ten thousand, for the sake of argument.

Those games quoted? Only a few dozen in the world have done that, at most.

However, as previously stated, listing those latter kinds of games doesn't make for an interesting list to click on. I mean, c'mon, "Mushihimesama"? How do you even pronounce that? Is that even a real title? Let's just tack on Zelda II and go home. Everyone has heard of that game.

Well, to be fair, a fraction of a fraction of a percent of people have played TGM3, DDPD, Futari, etc. vs a game like Battletoads. So yeah, of course less people have beaten them.

 

[Fugu]

Wizardry IV: The Return of Werdna is the hardest game that is possible to play to completion that I know of. It makes basically everything mentioned in this thread seem like a joke.

Wizardry IV is almost definitely the hardest pre-generated RPG ever made, sure, but more challenging than Rogue (or any of the Roguelikes that do not guarantee a "possible dungeon" upon generation)? I don't think so.

Honestly, though, I haven't beaten either. There's a lot of room for me to be wrong here.

 

[Ultimadrago]

I miss the Pooh Bear baseball thread

 

[Takuan]

I dunno, if you gave me Battletoads and Ninja Gaiden today I'd probably destroy both carts in a fit of rage.

I beat Dark Souls though. It wasn't hard so much as it was unforgiving; once you figured out patterns, it was almost easy.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Maximum Carnage in a list of the hardest games of all time!? What!?

 

[SkylineRKR]

Dark Souls isn't hard. Especially not if you come from NES era gaming. I've always compared this to megaman. You need to memorize layouts and traps and beat bosses in some sort of sequence. Its just that too many games these days don't really try to tax your skills and DS sort of stands out.

But you can level up, you can save... I've played many games much harder than this, also beat them. Like Maximum Carnage. Yes I fucking beat that merciless piece of work on the Genesis. Without cheats.

 

[Novocaine]

DJ Max is pretty fucking hard.

 

[TimorousPanda]

I started playing again as a result of your post and I had no idea you could upgrade Pooh's abilities. I played through a good portion of the game a long time ago without knowing this, haha.