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Has MS Had Their Own "SEGA Saturn" Moment And, If So, What Can They Do Going Forward?

Do You Think MS's July Event Was Their "SEGA Saturn" Moment?


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GHG

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I'm going with mostly no for now.

But if we start seeing stuff running on actual Series X hardware and it's somehow worse than what we've already seen then oh dear.

Then there's the whole 3rd party equation as well. Things need to run better on Series X than on PS5, no excuses. If they don't for any reason then I'd say they are categorically fucked.
 
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I'm going with mostly no for now.

But if we start seeing stuff running on actual Series X hardware and it's somehow worse than what we've already seen then oh dear.

Then there's the whole 3rd party equation as well. Things need to run better on Series X than on PS5, no excuses. If they don't for any reason then I'd say they are categorically fucked.
That is seriously the final frontier. For months now even Sony fans would concede that 3rd party games might run better on Series X. But if that ended up not being true in practice, someone is getting fired.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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Yeah, I have seen your posts lol

The Halo showing yesterday was a mis-step for sure. It is obvious that the rumours were true and it has been through dev hell. The talk of an RT patch after launch is the giveaway that this is not where they wanted it to be for launch. They should have never let Rod Fergusson leave XGS, and should have sent him to 343 to coordinate the team/project. It is also clear that the 5 yrs was most probably taken up with their engine development. The game looks rough at the moment for sure. I watched it in 4k/60hz through my tvs youtube app in HDR and one thing is certain, it will be a HDR showcase. It did also look better than the stream, but is not in anyway a looker. They will send this out at launch, and MCC it with fixes coming throughout next year.

They showed 9 of their studios games last night. They have more to show. Halo was mis-step, but the rest.... Microsoft have confirmed two high budget RPGs, and inexile are rumoured to have one dev too. Meaning they could well become an RPG powerhouse next gen. Let that sink in for a minute. That is without knowing what everyone else is upto.

The concern is not valid. Not having loads of gameplay is nothing new. Platform holders and pubs have been hyping their shit for years with CGI trailers and splash screens. Microsoft did the same yesterday.

I hear you man, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying here...except the end. Yes others have been doing the CGI trailer/splash screen stuff for years, too, but there's a difference when talking about MS's particular situation now especially in light of the Halo Infinite trailer.

Other companies, like Sony, when they do it people by and large take them at face value since they have a large stable of games which deliver (to vast majority of folks) amazing visuals and fun gameplay, plus in Sony's case strong cinematic-like stories. I'm just speaking on the general consensus here. They've essentially built rapport with gamers over the past several years, so that's led to trust from gamers in their games delivering and meeting/exceeding expectations. That's why a company like Sony can get away with the Miles Morales trailer at the PS5 conference. It had literally zero gameplay, but people have a pretty good idea of what it'll be like thanks to SpiderMan on PS4. That's called rapport.

MS, to most people outside of the diehard fans, hasn't built or maintained that same level of rapport with gamers over the past several years among a lot of their biggest IPs. I mean honestly, let's look at it this way: Halo? Each main entry has divided the fanbase since Halo 4, then games like MCC released in extremely broken/buggy states leading to questions about QC. The game got fixed eventually, of course, but the initial rapport was not great with it. Games like ReCore showed a lot of promise but were left to basically die with no expansion on their concepts via a sequel. Same can be said of games like Sunset Overdrive, which was actually very well received but again, no building on the momentum of the IP so no brand retention. cxcx

Gears seemingly became more and more of a slog for even some of the hardcore gamers; while Gears 5 has amended many of the mistakes of the other recent games, it wasn't enough to generate enough rapport to bring back in people who had tuned out to the IP earlier. Phantom Dust Remake and Scalebound both gathered a LOT of attention to the Xbox brand...and then both were cancelled. Ryse was a stunner at launch...no sequel came so, again, the rapport built with the game went mostly wasted and no brand retention. MS never continued the Dead Rising partnership with Capcom seemingly leading to the end of that IP. And then there's Crackdown 3, which spent YEARS being anticipated and hyped, only to come out as what many consider a wet dud of a disaster worthy of the best of memes. I could go on with similar examples (like Cuphead; great game and brought a ton of brand awareness and goodwill...then they ported it to the Switch, nullifying a lot of the IP's appeal in specifically bolstering the Xbox brand. THEN came the talk of more Xbox ports to Nintendo systems, building its own type of rapport and expectations that were then broken with MS ending that partnership plan this year!), which makes the rather excellent rapport built through specific IPs like Ori and Forza an exception for MS of late, not the rule.

Problem is, it needs to be the rule in order to get away with what MS did on the 23rd, to those outside of core fans already locked in the ecosystem. Especially considering how the event was hyped, and MS positioning it as their E3, AND Phil's own statements last year about them holding back amazing things at E3 2019 for this how. So...they just held back a bunch of CGI trailers and visually lukewarm gameplay of Halo Infinite? I think THAT'S what's causing the frustration, even with a good lot of Xbox fans. People have been told for a few years now to "just wait for the good stuff", and now close to 4 months shy of a next-generation console launch they aren't able to have anything other than a few (admittedly impressive) CGI trailers and seemingly alpha-state Halo Infinite gameplay? And not even captured on an actual Series X, but rather a PC "representative" of Series X instead?

For me that's just extremely frustrating considering just last month, Sony were able to have snippets of in-game gameplay for several of their 1st party titles, AND all content captured on an actual PS5. I'm still unclear if that meant a retail PS5 unit or a devkit (probably the latter), but at least that's actual PS5 hardware. Ironically MS showing what they did on PCs just reaffirms the negative opinion some people have had calling the Series X "basically a PC"; well hell, when you literally only show your stuff on a literal PC this close to system launch, what is the takeaway the common person is meant to have!?

It's just an opinion, and I'm still looking forward to the games shown and hoping they can fully realize their potential but...I just have to be honest. That WASN'T a good showing for Series X. And yes I've considered the Gamepass aspect too and realize it has a lot of potential but...I think a lot of people wanted to see SOME of the 1st party potential realized on the 23rd, because they're tired of waiting. Some have been waiting for 3-4 years now. MS made it seem like the 23rd would be the day they'd do it but IMO we got more trailers of games with promising potential but no gameplay, and gameplay for Halo Infinite that did not look visually impressive on a next-generation console.

So I guess for a lot of folks myself included, we're still waiting on potential. Personally I have the patience to wait a bit longer but if some of the discourse from people who aren't already part of the ecosystem (and even some who are) is any indication, their patience is running out or gone and MS needed to hook THEM in on Thursday. They didn't. They still have some time but it's literally a timescale of maybe two months at most and I honestly don't think another Gamepass advertisement or Lockhart/Series S reveal is going to do it for anyone other than faithful fans. Which is great for them, but if MS wants to expand the reach of their services, they need to be earning new fans, too.

You're losing perspective. Can you honestly say that the MS show wasn't good?

That it didn't have enough games to show or a vast range of games for any type of gamer?

I came away from that show thinking they had something for everyone.

It was a very good show. Was it better than Sony's? Apple's and oranges. I would say Microsoft's one was better BUT Sony will have one in August that may be better than Xbox.

Personally I've never said the show wasn't good. I actually liked a lot of what was shown, even Halo Infinite (after all, it may be visually unpolished but it did look fun to play IMHO). Standouts for me were Avowed, CrossFire X mainly because those had gameplay or some pseudo-gameplay presented in them (Avowed; I'm HOPING the actual game delivers that level of fidelity in-game). Promising starts for the Forza remake, SoD3, Fable etc. Liked some of the other 3rd-party efforts shown mainly The Gunk and the PSO2 expansion. And the preshow had a good thing in Balan WonderWorld.

However...that's just my perspective. I've seen the reaction among YT and other social media, and it seems a lot of gamers are still "stuck" in the mentality of wanting know what the 1st party exclusives will do for them, far ahead of what savings a service like Gamepass can bring them or what 3rd-party titles will be on the platform since they can realistically play those anywhere (unless they're timed exclusives which, even then, some may choose to wait out on until they're on their preferred system). Like I saw the Alanah Pearce video discussing Gamepass and yeah, I absolutely agree it brings great value to a gamer financially...but like I said a long time ago the hardcore/core gamers who usually buy-in at the start of a generation might not be as price-conscious as MS is thinking.

In other words, they might not CARE if they have to spend $60 for a next-gen game, as long as they see the value in it. It's the casual and mainstream types who are more price-conscious but historically they don't seem to start arriving into the console ecosystem until about 2-3 years after a system's been out and notable price reductions have begun. So if MS wants to push Gamepass as the major selling point for their next-gen devices, and they don't have the 1st-party content ready in time for the hardcore/core gamers who are drawn to that, then they need to find a way to entice the casual/mainstream gamers to be there at the start.

And that's probably what Lockhart/Series S is for in combination with Gamepass. Of course that's going to run a risk to hardcore/core gamers since casual/mainstream gamers have quite different tastes in what drives them to a console ecosystem (hardcore/core gamers = exclusives + breadth/variety of 3rd-party titles, casual/mainstream gamers = cheap pricing on hardware and software/services, decent variety of fun games (less discerning/discriminating tastes regarding perceived quality of software)). Unlike Nintendo and Sony, Microsoft will have to appeal to both types specifically and directly, right at the start of the generation, over two diverging technological approaches too (hardcore/core via Series X, who will demand games look and play like they take advantage of that hardware, versus casual/mainstream via Gamepass, who will be able to play on a range of devices of wildly different technical specifications therefore game design choices may have to accommodate that).

It's an incredibly tall order for them and I know even MS feel this way, which is part of the reason they have been leading so much next-gen messaging with Series X and, soon enough, Series S. Even if they technically offer Gamepass on other devices, they can more easily curate and narrow the best optimization range of software by consolidating people towards those two devices in particular. That's part of the reason they've ceased most XBO system manufacturing. Plus if they end up with a massive net of subscribers on mobile devices that also does incur increases in server costs, and even though Xbox division has had a greatly expanded budget of late, they still do have a budget to keep to.
 
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RAIDEN1

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Unlike Sega who brought out 1992 tech in 1995 with the Saturn, and then tacked on extra "capabilities" once they saw what the Playstation had, Microsoft have clearly put more thought into what is under the hood, and for all intents and purposes it has its Killer app ready from the get-go...where as Sega had to rush to get Daytona out, and even Virtua Fighter wasn't arcade perfect..
 
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Unlike Sega who brought out 1992 tech in 1995 with the Saturn, and then tacked on extra "capabilities" once they saw what the Playstation had, Microsoft have clearly put more thought into what is under the hood, and for all intents and purposes it has its Killer app ready from the get-go...where as Sega had to rush to get Daytona out, and even Virtua Fighter wasn't arcade perfect..

Dunno how true any of this is. The rumor with Saturn is that they threw in 3D as an afterthought, but that bears no logic considering SEGA were already making 3D arcade systems during that same '91-'92 period and planned at least for Model 1-tier 3D graphics on Saturn from the onset as a result. There's also the long-running speculation Sony based a lot of PS1 specifications around an illegally accessed Saturn devkit thanks to their publishing partnership with SEGA through Sony ImageSoft. The redesign was not timely in terms of fleshing out bottlenecks, but the concept of dual-processor designs was nothing new for SEGA since they put Away Team 27 on the design of the system and they came from the arcade side of the company, who had developed several multi-processor boards up to that point.

As for MS in this example, well Halo Infinite does look fun as I said earlier, but visually it's disappointed a lot of people and is now the butt of a meme. A lot of people outside of the dedicated fanbase probably won't want to give the game a chance if they think it's going to be visually similar to what was said here. In fact it's the visual side of its presentation Thursday and the reception it's received for that (especially considering the expectation people had of such a marquee game visually on such a powerful next-gen system) why I made the SEGA Saturn comparison in the first place in regards to perception of in-practice game visual capabilities between them and a competing Sony system near the start of the next generation.

It's that perception that's the issue; not everyone sees Infinite as a meme or bad visually obviously (hell watching it again I like aspects of the visuals and it's not really that bad graphics-wise, personally), but a large amount of people feel that way, including people MS needed to stun with wow factor IMHO.
 

Dane

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No, Microsoft is really just following the overbearing demands of the third-party publishers. The closed garden works (see: Nintendo) but third parties are getting more influential than ever. For a brand like Xbox, not having the support of third parties will SEGA you, no questions asked. So Microsoft must play along. Sony must too, to a lesser degree, because their mainstream consoles are pushed by third-party games, largely.

When we see third party publishers trimming back / closing down due to unprofitability, that is when Microsoft will go



When the AAAA market craters, that's when Microsoft will have its SEGA moment, and possibly Sony too.

Not trying to be doom and gloom, nor trying to make one brand soudn better than the other. These are market predictions, not judgment calls. Bookmark this and mock me in 3 years. I could be wrong. 🤷‍♀️

Exactly, the main problem i've noticed with people on internet is that they still live in a "two choices only" mentality, therefore I could say that there's no reason to have 10+ automakers in the world and 20+ mobile brands. People buy them for X reaons rather than just one.

The WiiU and Gamecube are examples of high attach ratio but only on exclusives, this was a complaint by third party studios back in the 128-bit generation. The Xbox already started off with a strong multiplatform support with strong selling games that Gamecube didn't receive such as Silent Hill 2, Burnout 3, GTA franchise and etc... Developers would rather support the Xbox because of that, and this is one of the reasons why the console outsold the Gamecube. Nintendo doesn't want this image today.

And when you look back, this is exactly what led Sony to it's leadership, a balanced hardware and friendly third party support, many of it's releases were exclusive because they held the big majority of the market, so it was a mix of simplicity and cost.

SEGA Saturn? You don't know what you are even implying. This XBOX game showcase wasn't even in the same neighborhood as the Saturn Launch. They aren't comparable.

The Saturn was released in NA with zero notice. Not even the retailers knew they were about to receive shipments of thousands of SEGA Saturns until it was announced at E3 that they were releasing the console that very week. For some reason, someone who was really extraordinarily incompetent in SEGA's marketing team thought this surprise would work in their favor.

This really pissed off every major retailer you can think of, so they dropped the SEGA product line from their stores.

Also, the Saturn cost $100 more than the Playstation, $400 vs $300. It was also way more expensive than Nintendo. It also didn't have many good games.

This forum is really something else with it's hyperbole. This forums response to Halo Infinite and the rest of the games shown does not sync up with the rest of humanity. There are very few people in the mainstream subscribing to this idea that MS just shit the bed.

These console launches live or die based on their price, features, services, and somewhat their launch titles but not really.

PS4 had an abysmal Launch year, and it didn't matter. They won through price and messaging. Xbox One was killed by it's "online only" image, forced Kinect, and being 25% more expensive. I doubt they have those problems this time around.

This is the main problem i've noticed with the "hardcore" base and stuff, they make obvious mistakes and think highly of themselves and are totally off the reality of the whole thing, I can agree that Halo showcase is a damaging, especially being a brand flagship, but we are talking about one single game, everybody seems to forget the very rest, the stuff that both Microsoft and Sony shows for better relationship and support, years ago it was "AAA industry sucks, indies and AA games are better" now it's the reverse for no reason at all but for measure, even ignoring the other AAAs such as Avowed, Everwild, Forza (which is a better flagship IMO) and Fable. Not to mention that Halo is not big as it used to be because the competition also got big spots.

The Xbox messaging of bringing your entire library (except for Kinect games), subscribe to a affordable game library service and stuff can make a huge impact, the PS4 won on it's pro consumer side and marketing, the Xbox brand is starting to being noticed on that (even on NPD sales the Xone is now tied to PS4 monthly), affordability is an important thing, something that PS3 didn't have and Sony told people to get two jobs and people would rather buy a X360 and keep replacing on its extended warranty.
 
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RAIDEN1

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Dunno how true any of this is. The rumor with Saturn is that they threw in 3D as an afterthought, but that bears no logic considering SEGA were already making 3D arcade systems during that same '91-'92 period and planned at least for Model 1-tier 3D graphics on Saturn from the onset as a result. There's also the long-running speculation Sony based a lot of PS1 specifications around an illegally accessed Saturn devkit thanks to their publishing partnership with SEGA through Sony ImageSoft. The redesign was not timely in terms of fleshing out bottlenecks, but the concept of dual-processor designs was nothing new for SEGA since they put Away Team 27 on the design of the system and they came from the arcade side of the company, who had developed several multi-processor boards up to that point.

As for MS in this example, well Halo Infinite does look fun as I said earlier, but visually it's disappointed a lot of people and is now the butt of a meme. A lot of people outside of the dedicated fanbase probably won't want to give the game a chance if they think it's going to be visually similar to what was said here. In fact it's the visual side of its presentation Thursday and the reception it's received for that (especially considering the expectation people had of such a marquee game visually on such a powerful next-gen system) why I made the SEGA Saturn comparison in the first place in regards to perception of in-practice game visual capabilities between them and a competing Sony system near the start of the next generation.

It's that perception that's the issue; not everyone sees Infinite as a meme or bad visually obviously (hell watching it again I like aspects of the visuals and it's not really that bad graphics-wise, personally), but a large amount of people feel that way, including people MS needed to stun with wow factor IMHO.
Yeah but one level does not make a game, we don't even know what the other locations look like, and the all important factor is the gameplay...you could look a million dollars in the looks department but have mediocre gameplay, I wouldn't call Halo Infinite a write-off yet, and one thing is for sure I would be very surprised if it ended up being in a poor technical state as Mass Effect Andromeda is...with regards to the Saturn Sega looked at the console having "modest" 3d capabilities, but when they got wind of Sony, then they had to up their game, at the cost of user-friendliness in terms of trying to get the best out of the machine....everything that the Genesis wasn't or hell even the Master System!
 
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bishopcruz

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Seen a lot of comparisons of MS to Sega by people who probably weren't even an itch in their daddy's crotch when Sega announced the Saturn. And if they were around when that announcement happened, they have zero excuses because they are nothing alike.

What made the Sega Saturn moment the Sega Saturn moment was that they simultaneously pissed off their thrid parties by launching early so games weren't ready; their retail partners by not having the Saturn available in anything but four select stores, and their fanbase (who was already leery after the 32x) by killing the genesis early. There have been a LOT of fuck ups in gaming history. But NONE of them came close to that trifecta.

Not that their aren't similarities. MS seems to have been a company at war with itself since at least the launch of the Xbox One, with part of the division trying to be a standard gaming division, and part of it trying to be a casual set-top box. Sega had its US and Japanese branches at war with each other when the Saturn launched.

If ANYTHING current woes are similar to the 360 launch which showed like barely an upgrade to current gen with games looking VERY rough until the system actually launched. People were not impressed by Kameo or PDZ, and the opinion of critics was that DoA4 didn't really look Next-gen enough either. General feeling around GAF was that the PS3 was going to bend it over and fuck it RAW. That never happened.

But again we are just talking similarities. The PS5 is launching at the same time as it was when the bone launched, and MS is STILL recovering from years of treating first parties as an afterthought.
 

Dane

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Seen a lot of comparisons of MS to Sega by people who probably weren't even an itch in their daddy's crotch when Sega announced the Saturn. And if they were around when that announcement happened, they have zero excuses because they are nothing alike.

What made the Sega Saturn moment the Sega Saturn moment was that they simultaneously pissed off their thrid parties by launching early so games weren't ready; their retail partners by not having the Saturn available in anything but four select stores, and their fanbase (who was already leery after the 32x) by killing the genesis early. There have been a LOT of fuck ups in gaming history. But NONE of them came close to that trifecta.

Not that their aren't similarities. MS seems to have been a company at war with itself since at least the launch of the Xbox One, with part of the division trying to be a standard gaming division, and part of it trying to be a casual set-top box. Sega had its US and Japanese branches at war with each other when the Saturn launched.

If ANYTHING current woes are similar to the 360 launch which showed like barely an upgrade to current gen with games looking VERY rough until the system actually launched. People were not impressed by Kameo or PDZ, and the opinion of critics was that DoA4 didn't really look Next-gen enough either. General feeling around GAF was that the PS3 was going to bend it over and fuck it RAW. That never happened.

But again we are just talking similarities. The PS5 is launching at the same time as it was when the bone launched, and MS is STILL recovering from years of treating first parties as an afterthought.

Yeah, i've heard that back in 2005 people were calling the X360 as the Xbox 1.5, and for some reason there was a meme over a PDZ screenshot that to this day I still didn't catch, perhaps it was the graphics, althrough it was better than the most beautiful games in the OG Xbox. The OG Xbox was almost a generation gap compared the PS2 and half of that compared to the GC.
 
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B bishopcruz D Dane I'm actually glad you guys mentioned the Xbox 1.5 stuff because I had forgotten about it, and in a lot of ways I guess what's maybe being perceived by some people right now regarding Halo Infinite & Series X is closer to what happened to the 360 leading up to its launch with some of those early Kameo & PDZ previews. And like you say, the 360 went on to do extremely well.

But also as you say, 360 had a year on the market to itself before the PS3 launched, plus the PS3 got off to a very bad start. The factors are different this time, though, unless by some chance Sony has to massively delay SpiderMan: Miles Morales and even Horizon: Forbidden West and there's just terrible things going down with it behind the scenes, both of which I doubt are the case.

The main reason I asked if MS had a "SEGA Saturn" moment, though, is because of the impression things like the early Daytona and Virtua Fighter ports did in regards the then-next gen messaging between SEGA and Sony leading up to both systems being on the market; it basically made people severely doubt Saturn's ability to do 3D well at all, and that stuck around even after massively improved versions of both games were demoed and released. I've just been wondering if there's a similar effect that could be happening with MS and Series X now given how a lot of folks feel about Halo Infinite's visuals (and in MS's case, lack of in-game gameplay for any other 1st-party title seen at the show).
 

Slings and Arrows

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Seriously, what is this?

Apart from halo, Microsoft’s show was one of promise. Not vague promises, but a look at what their studios are going to be bringing... just not yet.

Everyone knew that their new studios were already working on games or were just starting their 1st party games, so I don’t get the doom and gloom. What is clear is that Microsoft’s 1st party won’t start the churn until 2022 though.

What they have said all along about cross gen is now clear. They don’t have much this year and next. 1st party will be barren. That is why they have money hatted all those day one gamepass games that were shown last night.

Now about halo.....
It's more than Halo, it's the messaging as well. 5 mic drops, super powerful, 120fps then only talking about 60fps.

They could have shown Flight sim, which is hands down the best looking next gen game announced, but they didn't

Known the state of Halo they could have said it was a beta, available to play for free on Xbone and 1X, to take the sting away from the graphics, but they didn't

They could have piped own on the messaging, but they didn't.
 
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I don't think so, the machine itself has no apparent hardware issues that makes the machine itself un-attractive to developers, MS themselves won't just throw it in some stores angering their biggest distributors, etc.

The situations have almost nothing in parallel, there is nothing to make me believe that the series x will do any worse than the One. Then again with their cross-gen only games strategy for the first year or two there could be little reason for many to upgrade ASAP.
 

Dane

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B bishopcruz D Dane I'm actually glad you guys mentioned the Xbox 1.5 stuff because I had forgotten about it, and in a lot of ways I guess what's maybe being perceived by some people right now regarding Halo Infinite & Series X is closer to what happened to the 360 leading up to its launch with some of those early Kameo & PDZ previews. And like you say, the 360 went on to do extremely well.

But also as you say, 360 had a year on the market to itself before the PS3 launched, plus the PS3 got off to a very bad start. The factors are different this time, though, unless by some chance Sony has to massively delay SpiderMan: Miles Morales and even Horizon: Forbidden West and there's just terrible things going down with it behind the scenes, both of which I doubt are the case.

The main reason I asked if MS had a "SEGA Saturn" moment, though, is because of the impression things like the early Daytona and Virtua Fighter ports did in regards the then-next gen messaging between SEGA and Sony leading up to both systems being on the market; it basically made people severely doubt Saturn's ability to do 3D well at all, and that stuck around even after massively improved versions of both games were demoed and released. I've just been wondering if there's a similar effect that could be happening with MS and Series X now given how a lot of folks feel about Halo Infinite's visuals (and in MS's case, lack of in-game gameplay for any other 1st-party title seen at the show).

The thing is that 343i is handling it badly just like many crossgen ports for the older generation, every other game with gameplay on the showcase had clearly better effects, even Grounded LOL. The Saturn ports were rushed but the 3D was VERY hard to program, there are ports like Die Hard Trilogy who runs like shit.
 
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Leyasu

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It's more than Halo, it's the messaging as well. 5 mic drops, super powerful, 120fps then only talking about 60fps.

They could have shown Flight sim, which is hands down the best looking next gen game announced, but they didn't

Known the state of Halo they could have said it was a beta, available to play for free on Xbone and 1X, to take the sting away from the graphics, but they didn't

They could have piped own on the messaging, but they didn't.
Those are all very good points.
 

bishopcruz

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B bishopcruz D Dane I'm actually glad you guys mentioned the Xbox 1.5 stuff because I had forgotten about it, and in a lot of ways I guess what's maybe being perceived by some people right now regarding Halo Infinite & Series X is closer to what happened to the 360 leading up to its launch with some of those early Kameo & PDZ previews. And like you say, the 360 went on to do extremely well.

But also as you say, 360 had a year on the market to itself before the PS3 launched, plus the PS3 got off to a very bad start. The factors are different this time, though, unless by some chance Sony has to massively delay SpiderMan: Miles Morales and even Horizon: Forbidden West and there's just terrible things going down with it behind the scenes, both of which I doubt are the case.

The main reason I asked if MS had a "SEGA Saturn" moment, though, is because of the impression things like the early Daytona and Virtua Fighter ports did in regards the then-next gen messaging between SEGA and Sony leading up to both systems being on the market; it basically made people severely doubt Saturn's ability to do 3D well at all, and that stuck around even after massively improved versions of both games were demoed and released. I've just been wondering if there's a similar effect that could be happening with MS and Series X now given how a lot of folks feel about Halo Infinite's visuals (and in MS's case, lack of in-game gameplay for any other 1st-party title seen at the show).

Right, but as I said, a lot of that has to do with such a massive mistake on Sega's part that there was no recovery that gen or the next. Looking at history though, Sony of that era flat out EVIL when it comes to their hype machine. Every single time they spin it to be better than anything that their competitors are doing, and nearly every single time they tended to overpromise. Again, look at Deep Down, parts of that STILL look next gen 7 years later. The PS2 was going to give us Toy Story in real time, and be like plugging into the matrix. MS has NEVER had a great opening showing for an Xbox. Their best was probably the original back in the early aughts, but they are bad at it. Nothing will ever beat the disaster that was the bone reveal, but the Series X is sadly about what they usually do. Hype the power of their machine, show stuff that doesn't really show it off, and a year or so later finally deliver.

Right now, they are putting all their eggs in the basket of game pass, a service which I sure as shit love, and they are trying to transition to a less generation based model. It could blow up in their faces, something that sadly seems more likely now, but I do hope they do well enough to keep Sony on their toes. Sony without real competition is my least favorite Sony, Sony with it's back to the wall (Late PS3 and early PS4) is my favorite Sony.
 

LowerLevel

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I actually LOVED my Saturn and bought two, one of which still works! Xbox is so far from the Saturn debacle, it's laughable. Even more laughable people think the showcase was bad turn of events or whatever.

To each their own I guess...
 
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ZZZZ

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OP are you drunk? People need a reality check.
Yeah Halo was a major disappointment, but that's 343 and they don't have a good track record anyway, i wasn't expecting much from them in the first place.

We haven't seen Hellblade, Avowed, Fable, Forza, The initiative new game, the new big RPG from Inxile.
Sure most of those games won't be ready until 2022,2023+, but that doesn't mean the console is already done with.

What if all those games are a hit?

Honestly, when the PS4 destroyed the Xbox one at launch wasn't because of exclusives, it was because the console was more powerful and 100 dollars cheaper.
If Microsoft makes sure the price is the same or even lower than the PS5, and put it on a commercial that you can play Cyberpunk, Call of Duty and Fifa with better graphics and frames than the competition, and what do you think will happen?
 
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Freeman

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Their Sega Saturn moment has to be the Lockhart announcement. 2 months before release they are going to show up with a weaker console that goes against everything they used to promote the Series X? Two models also suggest that the Series X might actually be more expensive than the PS5 which would be suicide.
 
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Oct 30, 2011
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I almost feel like XSX is shaping up to be a bigger disaster than the Xbox One.

The lessons learned from the Xbox One (if they were learned), were implemented too late. Microsoft has always made a very big deal about next-gen launches. Xbox had Halo. Xbox 360 had games like Perfect Dark and Kameo. Xbox One had Ryse and Killer Instinct.

Xbox Series X has....nothing. This whole notion of not agreeing with generations is there to serve GamePass subs, but not push their platform, and I feel it's going to end very badly for Xbox as the PS5 take's the vast majority of adoption.

There is almost no reason to own an Xbox Series X. It is sent to die.
 

Xplainin

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Halo isn't ready for release, but they are determined to have it at console release. They are in a tight situation.
343i have let MS down with Halo, and if stories of development hell and top people leaving is true, MS might need to step in and kick some heads.
Offering Ray Tracing as a download after release says everything you need to know.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Their Sega Saturn moment has to be the Lockhart announcement. 2 months before release they are going to show up with a weaker console that goes against everything they used to promote the Series X? Two models also suggest that the Series X might actually be more expensive than the PS5 which would be suicide.

This too.

If I can't even figure out why Xbox One Series X exists, I'm doubly confused about why Lockhart exists.

The bottom line is if you own an Xbox One, you are not missing out on anything.
 
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eot

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Just my personal opinion, but Sony had much stronger exclusives last gen (Bloodborne, God of War, Horizon, Spider-Man, Naughty Dog crap, Persona 5, Last Guardian). MS kinda failed to do something really killer with their existing franchises like Halo and Gears, and also didn't really start anything new that became huge, unless there's something I'm forgetting. Anyway, point is that I'm not surprised that their showing was kinda weak, I expect Sony to have the better exclusives, I guess the question is if that's what's most important to you.

(For the record I play on PC 99% of the time)