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Has there ever been a more unearned emotional fight in manga than Naruto vs. Sasuke?

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cordy

Banned
That's called poor writing. When well done you see the teams interact and actually appear to be close and friends. Take the APA for example or Jericho/Owens for a more recent one. Then when the split happens it's told why it happened and there's a fallout. There's a lot of "just stick these two together" teams and that's just shitty writing/planning.

You can't hand wave away that it's manga/anime when I give an example of it done well from a manga.

Edit: Holy shit, stop double posting, self.

I'm handwaving it for me personally because it doesn't bother me.

But I'm not saying it's not bad writing. It's definitely bad and there's a lot in the series that's that bad lol. With me it's more like "well lemme add this to the list" if that makes any sense.
 

theWB27

Member
You can say they were always gonna clash but where does the narrative that they're best friends come from? It's shoehorned into this fight.

You're right. Them constantly trying to one up each other as kids meant nothing. Them going on their first missions meant nothing. Sasuke sacrificing himself for naruto meant nothing. Sasuke and naruto both admitting before the split that they both felt a connection meant nothing.

Its not just friendship. Its destiny they are yinyang. That's the bond naruto harps on. Is the thing sasuke constantly tries to break but can't.
 
You can say they were always gonna clash but where does the narrative that they're best friends come from? It's shoehorned into this fight.


What is a little sad about Naruto is the fact that Sasuke is one of his best friends because he's a nobody that has NO friends. He was in a squad with Sakura and Sasuke, and I think like any squad they grew close at least in terms of supporting one another. So I can understand how the first person Naruto bonds with could become a best friend to him. Sasuke is the more difficult one to explain, but I feel like this is one of the few times that flashbacks work really well in Naruto. We see some familiar scenes between Sasuke and Naruto in flashbacks, but this time we get some narrative from Sasuke. It puts a new spin on things we've already witnessed and though I can't remember any now because it's been a billion years, I remember thinking Sasuke's new narrative over some of his memories with Naruto help you realize "Oh...this is what Sasuke really feels under that 'tough man' exterior." We see that he has grown close to Naruto, but because of his haunted past with his brother he's purposefully kept himself distant and focused on his one goal: revenge.
 

cordy

Banned
What is a little sad about Naruto is the fact that Sasuke is one of his best friends because he's a nobody that has NO friends. He was in a squad with Sakura and Sasuke, and I think like any squad they grew close at least in terms of supporting one another. So I can understand how the first person Naruto bonds with could become a best friend to him.

See, that's one of the weird parts of the series to me. They said "Naruto didn't have friends" but then we always saw shit about him hanging with Shika, Kiba and Chouji all the time. Man, it's wild but I feel ya lol.
 

Compbros

Member
It's subtle. An obtuse reader like yourself isn't going to see it.

Perhaps, could you point me to some moments.

Uhhhhh, it's been built right from the very beginning when they were tested by Kakashi? You don't remember the rice balls?

Heck, Sasuke even admonished Sakura for making fun of Naruto.


When Sasuke gave Naruto food? When he said that Naruto would get in the way if he was hungry so it's better to feed him? Or another moment?
 

KHlover

Banned
Naruto feels like Kishimoto had a totally different story in mind initially but then retconned all of it just before the big Naruto vs Sasuke fight in Part 1.
 
See, that's one of the weird parts of the series to me. They said "Naruto didn't have friends" but then we always saw shit about him hanging with Shika, Kiba and Chouji all the time. Man, it's wild but I feel ya lol.
Yeah...It's a little odd that we start Naruto with everyone treating Naruto like a piece of crap whom everyone hates...to then at some point flipping gears into "my lord, doesn't he have such a warm personality that can make anyone fall in love with him!" It makes you wonder why it took him so long to start making friends. Like...what suddenly make this personality-trait kick in? Other than him being the hero in a shonen, where your main character has to have an infectiously loving personality.

Never got deep into Naruto but with all these threads it looks like it's not going to be looked back at fondly
I came to the realization the other day that while some people joke about Naruto ending at the Pain arc, I'm 100% fine with genuinely not finishing Naruto and telling myself it did end there. As far as I am concerned, everything after Pain arc is Dragon Ball GT---that shit ain't canon. By doing this, I can fondly look back on Naruto and say it is a pretty great piece of work. And the anime has some of my absolute favorite episodes of anime ever. Shipppuden spoiler:
The whole episode of Shikamaru mourning Asuma's death is such a beautiful and well-written episode.
 

smurfx

get some go again
i've always hated that naruto considered sasuke such a precious friend when shikamaru was an actual friend since childhood.
 
Never got deep into Naruto but with all these threads it looks like it's not going to be looked back at fondly

I think so. I just think you see a lot more negative threads because all the people who do love it have less incentive to make threads about things they loved or thought was awesome.



I love Naruto. I think it's a bad ass show (as well as Shippuuden). I think it just suffers from having so much bloat. I think if you cut off 2/3 of the fat from the entire series you'd have a really tight and exciting frame.


A Naruto episode is 22 minutes with intro and outro. It has several minutes of "happened last episode" and as a result you have a ton of waste through repetition, exposition and repeats. Removing all of this, and the filler and the parts where the pacing is just slow and fucked up, you could mash up the best bits and have a very cohesive and exciting show.
The Ninja War arc- If you took 100 episodes of that and condensed it into 10 really good ones, it would really shine.



Naruto repeats itself a lot of the years, so you can cut off a lot of deadweight and still retain the essence of it- Which is, a lot of cool characters with interesting and unusual abilities.
 

Compbros

Member
You're right. Them constantly trying to one up each other as kids meant nothing.



That means they're rivals.


Them going on their first missions meant nothing.

That means they're teammates.

Sasuke sacrificing himself for naruto meant nothing.

It means they're willing to protect people. Team seven's first big mission was protecting someone.


Sasuke and naruto both admitting before the split that they both felt a connection meant nothing.

It means that we're being told how much they mean to each other instead of us having this understanding already.


Its not just friendship. Its destiny they are yinyang. That's the bond naruto harps on. Is the thing sasuke constantly tries to break but can't.


You can say destiny all day like it was destiny Team Seven would become the new Sannin but it doesn't change the fact that they try to beat the audience over the head with their "friendship" while the fight that is supposed to already have that investment is underway.



But this is proven false as Naruto is seen goofing off with Shika, Kiba, and Choji as kids and Shika being a legit friend to him when they were younger.
 
Never got deep into Naruto but with all these threads it looks like it's not going to be looked back at fondly
Bullshit. GAF has a plethora of readers who actively read many mangas/ watch anime. So naturally there will be many people who are critical. But for many people, Naruto was a series they grew up with and I don't think it'll be looked back at negatively.
 

Compbros

Member
Bullshit. GAF has a plethora of readers who actively read many mangas/ watch anime. So naturally there will be many people who are critical. But for many people, Naruto was a series they grew up with and I don't think it'll be looked back at negatively.

I think as time goes on it won't be remembered as fondly as it is but I don't think many fans will think negative of it. I think part 2 is 70 percent trash but everything else was mostly good with bits of greatness.
 

Zekes!

Member
Gohan vs Cell maybe? Gohan's buildup in that arc was pretty weak in general

At first I was going to agree with you, but now I'm not so sure. The first time I saw that part in the anime (without knowing what comes after) it definitely felt earned. Like yeah, Goku had died before, but this was a big passing of the torch moment. And then you're launched into Gohan's teenage years and it seems like the focus is changed from Goku to him....until Goku comes back.

Having reread the manga recently, it doesn't really feel as earned either. And maybe it's because the manga doesn't spend as much time focusing on Gohan or Gohan's relationship with Piccolo compared to the anime, so he's not as established as a character as much. Like the manga moves at a pretty steady clip, despite the complaints the original anime gets for dragging things out, and it's focus is primarily on Goku up until that point.
 

Laieon

Member
Yes.

BrfYB0n.jpg
 
On topic the final naruto vs sasuke fight was fine especially in a vacuum, the issue is it came after so much bull shit during the war that I was numb by the point it happened. The constant retconning to make Naruto and Sauske always friends forced destiny into their conflict made it not feel as natural as their earlier confrontations felt. It basically turned into the shonen battle manga equivalent of a hate sex where once they blew their chakra load on each other they were good and best friends again.

Yup. The final fight was even great, but it's actually better if you stopped watching after a certain point and just imagine how the plot with Sasuke and Naruto proceeded without knowing any of the terrible execution on it

The build up was watching these two on separate journeys whose conclusion was always going to clash because their vision's couldn't coexist.

They constantly harped on this.

They didn't do it well
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
I don't know if this is what the OP is asking, but I think the Bakugou vs Deku fight in the beginning of My Hero Academia is a real stinker. Bakugou is literally trying to kill Deku while Deku has this weird "no but actually you're my friend tho" thing going. I just think Bakugou is a shitty character who didn't really learn a damn thing from Deku becoming more powerful than him.
 

theWB27

Member
That means they're rivals.




That means they're teammates.



It means they're willing to protect people. Team seven's first big mission was protecting someone.




It means that we're being told how much they mean to each other instead of us having this understanding already.





You can say destiny all day like it was destiny Team Seven would become the new Sannin but it doesn't change the fact that they try to beat the audience over the head with their "friendship" while the fight that is supposed to already have that investment is underway.




But this is proven false as Naruto is seen goofing off with Shika, Kiba, and Choji as kids and Shika being a legit friend to him when they were younger.

Yo... no matter how much you want to ignore it and call it something else... they establish the relationship.

Its in plain view.

It doesn't matter how you liked the execution... the story is still there.
 
Didn't mind the first fight but the second fight felt like such a forced thing because it was expected
Also the fact that it was after the war which soured the whole thing
 

Compbros

Member
Yo... no matter how much you want to ignore it and call it something else... they establish the relationship.

Its in plain view.

It doesn't matter how you liked the execution... the story is still there.

Relationship, fine. Friendship, I don't see it.
 

Raonak

Banned
Yeah definitely, the friendship aspect was never built up enough to warrant such an emotional response from naruto. It's super jarring, especially with how much time shippuden spends trying to retroactively establish it.

There was definitely glimpses of it, but never arrived at it's destination before going completely off the rails.
 
Yeah definitely, the friendship aspect was never built up enough to warrant such an emotional response from naruto. It's super jarring, especially with how much time shippuden spends trying to retroactively establish it.

There was definitely glimpses of it, but never arrived at it's destination before going completely off the rails.
This.
At times it did feel like Kishimoto knew like he fucked up and had to add more scenes to make it feel like something was there.
 

Compbros

Member
Another Naruto thread?
Lets make a One Piece thread next time to spice things up. I do like that bit in the OP.

I do love me some One Piece.


Stop looking the other way then

I'm looking at the series, I'm looking at what's presented to me.

Speaking of One Piece, here's a bunch of clips of Luffy and Usopp being friends and just enjoying each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPfnvgNOTDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIvSjA0RRJo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_aw90lazk8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGEcR30EzlY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16OkAfczJwQ


This is what you don't get in Naruto, them just enjoying each other, having fun together, and seen as being friends. We're told these things. You talk about protecting each other, ShikaInoCho protected Team 7 in the forest and I'm sure Shika/Choji don't give two shits about Sasuke at that point. It's the narrative presented to me, it's two guys that respect each other and inspire each other but don't seem to really like each other.


Edit: Then here's the fallout


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI8HnxdupKU
 
Eh I liked it well enough.

Gotta give that final battle credit.

maxresdefault.jpg

They hit each other with their final attack so hard their arms explode.
 

Ninjimbo

Member
I agree. Even when I watched that arc way back when, I thought Sasuke and Naruto's friendship was kind of BS. For Naruto to care that much about an asshole like Sasuke didn't feel believable to me. Kishimoto actually spent more time developing Naruto's relationships with the other kids than he did with Sasuke and their matches hit way harder.

The whole story would have been a lot more interesting if Sasuke embraced his darkness and gone full treasonous rogue. I always wanted that trio to follow how Orochimaru, Tsunade and Jiraiya went.

Oh well. At least it was better than Bleach.

Btw OP, thanks for reminding me how great One Piece is.
 

theWB27

Member
I do love me some One Piece.




I'm looking at the series, I'm looking at what's presented to me.

Speaking of One Piece, here's a bunch of clips of Luffy and Usopp being friends and just enjoying each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPfnvgNOTDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIvSjA0RRJo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_aw90lazk8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGEcR30EzlY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16OkAfczJwQ


This is what you don't get in Naruto, them just enjoying each other, having fun together, and seen as being friends. We're told these things. You talk about protecting each other, ShikaInoCho protected Team 7 in the forest and I'm sure Shika/Choji don't give two shits about Sasuke at that point. It's the narrative presented to me, it's two guys that respect each other and inspire each other but don't seem to really like each other.


Edit: Then here's the fallout


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI8HnxdupKU

When did you see sasuke enjoy anything fun through the whole series?

Their friendship is rooted in the fact they'd give their life to save the other. Not because they'd go play games.

Its weird to say they arent friends because its not presented in the way a completely different series and characters do.
 

Compbros

Member
When did you see sasuke enjoy anything fun through the whole series?

Their friendship is rooted in the fact they'd give their life to save the other. Not because they'd go play games.

Its weird to say they arent friends because its not presented in the way a completely different series and characters do.


Exactly, he's an unfriendly loner that is suddenly bffs with Naruto.

Again, that's what Ninjas do. They have missions that are literally "protect this person" and we have evidence in the same show of people that really don't care about the person they're saving risking their lives to protect someone.

They're not friends because they aren't presented as such. I'm sure Kiba and Shino have protected each other with their lives, I for sure wouldn't say they're friends. They're teammates and rivals, not friends. There are family members that people love but don't really like, they're not friends but they'd have their back in an instant if things go down.


Edit: Basically we don't see them having any affection towards one another, we are told they do.
 

Raonak

Banned
The real problem with the friendship is that it never went past rivalry stage in the actual series until the epilogue. All the character development is completely skipped.

It should've either went full dark with saskue becoming a full villian and naruto having to actually kill him. OR they should've reconciled in the end of the 2nd act of the series and then see them be proper friends for the final act. HunterXHunter made me realise how much better the naruto saskue relationship could've been.

It was super frustrating to watch naruto chase after saskue who repeatedly proved to be a shitty person.
Especially as it became the main focus of the show.


The One piece comparison is a bit unfair, One Piece does a lot of things better than Naruto/most shonen.
I mean, compare the gulf in quality between their war arcs...
 

Nerokis

Member
Okay, it's been an incredibly long time since I've thought about or discussed Naruto at any depth, but let me give this a shot.

First of all, there are definitely more than just a few examples of their connection clearly being fleshed out. You have their formal introductions to one another, Sasuke empathizing with Naruto when Sakura did not, and Sasuke also revealing his softer side when he decided to share food with Naruto. During the Wave Arc or whatever it was called (Zabuza, Haku, etc.), they trained together, and helped each other out (cute scene I remember: Naruto having to lean on Sasuke after their all-night training session). Against Haku, both invested a lot into protecting each other.

The Chuunin Exam Arc had a few big moments for the SasukexNaruto connection. Aside from all the additional time spent helping each other through dangerous situations, there was the time when Sasuke acknowledged Naruto as a rival, and the time (vs. Gaara) when he acknowledged him as a precious person, telling him to run away because he didn't want to see another person precious to him die. Skipping ahead, during Sasuke's whole inferiority complex ordeal (before he bounced from Konoha, as I believe the city was called), it was made very clear that he viewed Naruto as family.

So there was build up - the emotional aspect behind the Sasuke vs. Naruto fight didn't come from nowhere. Now, all that said, to some extent it was unearned. In a number of ways, their relationship wasn't especially fleshed out, and at the very least the fight presented a fairly sudden tonal change to it.

That tonal change, though, also pointed to a couple narrative points. Sasuke and Naruto were never totally open about their feelings for one another, and the fight was specifically the platform where they acknowledged the special roles they occupied in each other's lives. It's obvious they hadn't been mere rivals for a very long time; their developing rivalry also reflected their developing connection overall. Additionally, the fight was where we started to learn how their lives were intertwined on a grander scale (their not totally dissimilar pasts drawing them to one another much earlier on, Sasuke always being Naruto's reference point, the sense of destiny portrayed by the statues they fought around, etc.).

So, again, there were definitely issues there, but it worked for me overall. I'll always remember reading the chapter where Naruto caught up to Sasuke for the first time, and how much atmosphere was infused into those panels. As erratically written as a good amount of the stuff surrounding the fight was, I was pretty invested in their friendship by the end.

Part 2 is when it all becomes unadulterated garbage.
 

Compbros

Member
The real problem with the friendship is that it never went past rivalry stage in the actual series until the epilogue. All the character development is completely skipped.

It should've either went full dark with saskue becoming a full villian and naruto having to actually kill him. OR they should've reconciled in the end of the 2nd act of the series and then see them be proper friends for the final act. HunterXHunter made me realise how much better the naruto saskue relationship could've been.

It was super frustrating to watch naruto chase after saskue who repeatedly proved to be a shitty person.
Especially as it became the main focus of the show.


The One piece comparison is a bit unfair, One Piece does a lot of things better than Naruto/most shonen.
I mean, compare the gulf in quality between their war arcs...

Well One Piece is the greatest long-running shounen in history but I think it's still a valid comparison because they mirror each other on the surface. They both deal with two best friends fighting initially, OP being an argument instead of an actual fight, and the one leaving doing it for selfish reasons before their big fight. Naruto is just presented so melodramatically with the over-emphasization of their friendship that was hardly built upon. It's just a really poor build.
 

Ray Down

Banned
Its almost like you don't understand that it's destiny.

That there were two ninjas in most generations that could decide if conflict continued or ended.

I guess though.

Except you are messing what make the audience care.

Good well developed characters, a good premise that isn't butchered and proper story execution a 3rd grader could pull off...
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
When Sasuke gave Naruto food? When he said that Naruto would get in the way if he was hungry so it's better to feed him? Or another moment?

Dude, come on, even a 5th grader would understand that it's a statement not to be taken literally.

It's a Tsundere moment from him. Come on, that's just really basic reading literacy there.
 

Compbros

Member
Dude, come on, even a 5th grader would understand that it's a statement not to be taken literally.

It's a Tsundere moment from him. Come on, that's just really basic reading literacy there.

Why would I think that when everything we hear of Sasuke is "these people will just get in my way" then it's like "I'm actually a caring person, have food". People can read the subtext differently, I read it as Sasuke doing it as a means to an end, others read it as he actually cares for Naruto. I personally don't know why.



Okay, it's been an incredibly long time since I've thought about or discussed Naruto at any depth, but let me give this a shot.

First of all, there are definitely more than just a few examples of their connection clearly being fleshed out. You have their formal introductions to one another, Sasuke empathizing with Naruto when Sakura did not, and Sasuke also revealing his softer side when he decided to share food with Naruto. During the Wave Arc or whatever it was called (Zabuza, Haku, etc.), they trained together, and helped each other out (cute scene I remember: Naruto having to lean on Sasuke after their all-night training session). Against Haku, both invested a lot into protecting each other.

The Chuunin Exam Arc had a few big moments for the SasukexNaruto connection. Aside from all the additional time spent helping each other through dangerous situations, there was the time when Sasuke acknowledged Naruto as a rival, and the time (vs. Gaara) when he acknowledged him as a precious person, telling him to run away because he didn't want to see another person precious to him die. Skipping ahead, during Sasuke's whole inferiority complex ordeal (before he bounced from Konoha, as I believe the city was called), it was made very clear that he viewed Naruto as family.

So there was build up - the emotional aspect behind the Sasuke vs. Naruto fight didn't come from nowhere. Now, all that said, to some extent it was unearned. In a number of ways, their relationship wasn't especially fleshed out, and at the very least the fight presented a fairly sudden tonal change to it.

That tonal change, though, also pointed to a couple narrative points. Sasuke and Naruto were never totally open about their feelings for one another, and the fight was specifically the platform where they acknowledged the special roles they occupied in each other's lives. It's obvious they hadn't been mere rivals for a very long time; their developing rivalry also reflected their developing connection overall. Additionally, the fight was where we started to learn how their lives were intertwined on a grander scale (their not totally dissimilar pasts drawing them to one another much earlier on, Sasuke always being Naruto's reference point, the sense of destiny portrayed by the statues they fought around, etc.).

So, again, there were definitely issues there, but it worked for me overall. I'll always remember reading the chapter where Naruto caught up to Sasuke for the first time, and how much atmosphere was infused into those panels. As erratically written as a good amount of the stuff surrounding the fight was, I was pretty invested in their friendship by the end.

Part 2 is when it all becomes unadulterated garbage.



Their introduction is born of hostility from the get-go. Naruto is jealous of Sasuke because of Sakura and Sasuke is annoyed by Naruto. The food bit Sasuke says that he's only doing because Naruto would be useless if he's hungry. I don't know where people get getting this idea that he did it out of compassion and this is right after Kakashi talks about them being terrible because they're not working as a team. Sasuke says "after lunch we'll work together and get the bells, without food he'll just be in the way and that will hurt us". Training together means nothing, again I point to several IRL instances of teammates in sports not liking each other but they all show up to practice and games. They do what their coach (Kakashi) tells them because that's their job. Kakashi riles Naruto and Sasuke up by talking about Hokage and Uchiha's after Sakura easily does it and they have trouble. This is one of the first points of their rivalry and people seem to be rolling rivalry into friendship when they aren't mutually exclusive. They're whole training session is about pushing each other, Naruto comments on how Sasuke keeps getting higher and Sasuke remarks on how Naruto is catching up. Sasuke saves Naruto after he messes up and later helps him back to the village, the helping Naruto back to the village is the first real instance of comradary between the two. They also invested a lot in protecting their mission, and in the forest Shika's team invested a lot in protecting team 7 and in the sound invasion the sand ninja's invested a lot in protecting the retrieval team, and in the Sasori fight Sakura and Chiyo invested a lot in protecting each other, so on and so forth.



I think you're confusing Gaara for Haku with that precious person thing but I could be mistaken. I will counter that with you can care for someone but not like them. I have friends I've fallen out with (over dumb shit) but I still love them even if we're not really friends anymore. How was it made clear he saw Naruto as family?


It was more unearned than earned, we're meant to believe they're the best of friends when really the most we gather from what's shown is that they're teammates and rivals that respect each other. Sakura didn't get the same adoration, friendship wise, from either because she wasn't a rival to either but she was there through the training and missions, same as them. Their rivalry gave way to respect and the next step is friendship but we don't hit that step.


What's funny is that Sasuke and Naruto spent more time apart than together from what we've seen, they both go off on their own special training seperate from each other in adjourning arcs. Sasuke leaves before the second round of the chuunin exam, Naruto leaves after the Gaara fight, next time they meet they're fighting. So, in terms of what we're shown, we have the Kakashi test, the Haku arc, the forest, and the prelim round of the chuunin exam. After that they're pretty much apart from each other until their fight.


It's fine if it worked for you, back then it worked for me too. But as time went on and I started reading more and more manga and my recent urge to re-read Naruto I start to realize how poorly executed it was.
 

duality1123

Neo Member
Perhaps, could you point me to some moments.




When Sasuke gave Naruto food? When he said that Naruto would get in the way if he was hungry so it's better to feed him? Or another moment?

OP you might be interested in the Naruto re-read thread on Spacebattles. They actually go through each chapter and on a second look there is actually a lot of small things generally in how they act towards each other.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-naruto-reread-thread.358836/
 

Compbros

Member
OP you might be interested in the Naruto re-read thread on Spacebattles. They actually go through each chapter and on a second look there is actually a lot of small things generally in how they act towards each other.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-naruto-reread-thread.358836/

Wow that's a lot of pages but I'll browse through some of it tomorrow sometime.


Edit: I've also been re-reading Naruto myself which lead me to this. Grudging respect and a fierce rivalry don't equal a friendship and certainly not best friends to me.
 

Nerokis

Member
Their introduction is born of hostility from the get-go. Naruto is jealous of Sasuke because of Sakura and Sasuke is annoyed by Naruto. The food bit Sasuke says that he's only doing because Naruto would be useless if he's hungry. I don't know where people get getting this idea that he did it out of compassion and this is right after Kakashi talks about them being terrible because they're not working as a team. Sasuke says "after lunch we'll work together and get the bells, without food he'll just be in the way and that will hurt us". Training together means nothing, again I point to several IRL instances of teammates in sports not liking each other but they all show up to practice and games. They do what their coach (Kakashi) tells them because that's their job. Kakashi riles Naruto and Sasuke up by talking about Hokage and Uchiha's after Sakura easily does it and they have trouble. This is one of the first points of their rivalry and people seem to be rolling rivalry into friendship when they aren't mutually exclusive. They're whole training session is about pushing each other, Naruto comments on how Sasuke keeps getting higher and Sasuke remarks on how Naruto is catching up. Sasuke saves Naruto after he messes up and later helps him back to the village, the helping Naruto back to the village is the first real instance of comradary between the two. They also invested a lot in protecting their mission, and in the forest Shika's team invested a lot in protecting team 7 and in the sound invasion the sand ninja's invested a lot in protecting the retrieval team, and in the Sasori fight Sakura and Chiyo invested a lot in protecting each other, so on and so forth.

I think you're confusing Gaara for Haku with that precious person thing but I could be mistaken. I will counter that with you can care for someone but not like them. I have friends I've fallen out with (over dumb shit) but I still love them even if we're not really friends anymore. How was it made clear he saw Naruto as family?

Correct: rivalry and friendship aren't mutually exclusive. That's why your attempt to forcefully exclude them one another in order to make the point that only the rivalry actually existed is fundamentally flawed from the outset.

Otherwise, a lot of this reads as a ridiculously selective interpretation of events that also happens to ignore storytelling conventions, obvious authorial intent, and other things along those lines. I mean, come on. After everything that had happened between them up to that point in the Wave Arc, Sasuke decided to sacrifice his life to save Naruto, and Naruto proceeded to have that dramatic transformation moment. It's pretty obvious you're not supposed to dismiss all that as merely "one in a long sequence of examples of character x getting invested in y", right? The emotional thrust is that Naruto and Sasuke cared about each other, and put a lot on the line to protect one another.

And nah, I remember the Gaara moment pretty clearly - at least to the extent I know it existed in some form or another. Yes, you can throw a random rebuttal on the table, but you know you don't have to, right? In the broad spectrum of human psychology, it's certainly possible to consider someone precious and also not actually see them as a friend, but in this case, isn't it a good idea to connect your psychological exploration with what's actually going on in the manga? Kishimoto wasn't writing characters who aren't friends in that scene. He was writing a character who had lost his family once, and didn't want to do so again, and so was prepared to sacrifice his life (again) in order to give Naruto and Sakura (family #2) time to escape.

Anyway, I could go on along these lines, but my point is this: simultaneously, I can see how someone would think the melodrama in the Sasuke vs. Naruto fight was unearned (even agree, to an extent), but also find the line of argument you're employing to show that very unpersuasive.

And I'm done talking about Naruto for awhile. Can't handle all the nostalgia this conversation is giving me.

P.S. Again, acknowledging that a lot of the writing around this was erratic, the moment after the fight when Sasuke made the decision not to be Itachi's puppet or whatever was one of the most meaningful examples of character development in the manga.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
Part 1 ZOOMED from the Land of Waves to the Chunin Exams to Searching for Tsunade to Sasuke Retrieval.
There was so little breathing room and we barely ever actually got to see Team 7 work together or grow their relationships.

Land of Waves was a solid start, but then even in the Forest of Death section of the Exams Team 7 was always either split up or had multiple members unconscious. Then the Tsunade arc completely left Kakashi, Sasuke and Sakura behind, and then Sasuke Retrieval happens, which also abandons Sakura and Kakashi and gives us a bunch of flashbacks of Naruto as a kid playing with Kiba, Shikamaru and Chouji that completely undermine his whole "Grew up alone and friendless" angle.

Part 1 desperately needed to take its time and show up some more Team 7 missions so we could actually see them become close instead of being told they were close after the fact.
 

smurfx

get some go again
I do love me some One Piece.




I'm looking at the series, I'm looking at what's presented to me.

Speaking of One Piece, here's a bunch of clips of Luffy and Usopp being friends and just enjoying each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPfnvgNOTDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIvSjA0RRJo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_aw90lazk8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGEcR30EzlY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16OkAfczJwQ


This is what you don't get in Naruto, them just enjoying each other, having fun together, and seen as being friends. We're told these things. You talk about protecting each other, ShikaInoCho protected Team 7 in the forest and I'm sure Shika/Choji don't give two shits about Sasuke at that point. It's the narrative presented to me, it's two guys that respect each other and inspire each other but don't seem to really like each other.


Edit: Then here's the fallout


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI8HnxdupKU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsTXu731YMY

one of my fav moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6yApHswPgs

i also enjoy this scene.
 
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