HBO Original | The Last of Us | Part 1 OT | Endure & Survive

Bartski

Gold Member
The last scene with Tess was a giant WTF, made no sense at first and left me thinking this may actually go to shit real fast...

But then I realized this is once again my vantage point bias knowing the game inside out and it really dawned on me - what they're doing here is solving one of the biggest plot holes of the game, one I see rarely discussed among the noise beatng dead horses over Joel's motivations and such.

Infected killing and devouring people by default actually makes no sense. You can try justify it in a number of ways but at its core - keeping future hosts alive is the only biologically valid way such parasite would behave.

I still hope Part 3 will stay true to the original lore, but I wouldn't mind taking some inspirations. Just bring spores back and we're good.

Overalll, a huge win for Dr. Uckmann. Curious how much more directing he gets offered in Season 2 and 3 and what does it mean for the future of his Dog duties.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
She leads the conversation with Robert's men

Man - "Bitch, I will bash your skull unless you turn around and get your dumb ass outta here."
Tess - "Fuck this."

Dialog between Joel and Tess on the way to Robert.

Joel - "Be careful."
Tess - "When am I not?"

Joel - "Ladies first."
Tess - "Lady? You must be thinking of someone else."

Tess - "Get your ass up here. Let's move
Joel - "Bossy today."

*Tess shoots the man in the head*

Joel - "Who was that?"
Tess - "An old headache. Don't ask.

Tess leads the conversation with Robert
Robert - "We ain't got fuckin' nothin' to talk about."
Tess - "Put your gun down."

Joel doesn't say anything.

Tess again leads the conversation and kills Robert.

Robert - "C'mon. Fuck those Fireflies. Let's go get 'em."
Tess - "That is a stupid idea."

*Tess kills Robert.*

Tess leads the conversation with Marlene when she finds out they're smuggling Ellie.

Tess - "Speaking of which - where are they?"
Marlene - "Back at our camp."
Tess - "We're not smuggling shit until I see them."


-------------

Tess was obviously more "in charge" in the game in comparison to the actual TV show.

You should try playing the game again.
Like I said, with the connections/deals stuff she generally had the lead. Joel in the game raised questions, concerns and a little pushback at times and there were a few moments when Tess looked at Joel to see if he agrees. In the show he seemed a little more passive, going along type to me. It's not a huge deal so far to me, I'll have to see the rest of the season before making up my mind.
 

DForce

Member
Like I said, with the connections/deals stuff she generally had the lead. Joel in the game raised questions, concerns and a little pushback at times and there were a few moments when Tess looked at Joel to see if he agrees. In the show he seemed a little more passive, going along type to me. It's not a huge deal so far to me, I'll have to see the rest of the season before making up my mind.
Tess took over the conversation. THAT'S being in charge. Tess was ready to shoot Ellie after finding out she was infected. Joel would often say things to Tess and then she would push back. Joel only really spoke up to Tess outside of the QZ to Tess when he felt they were in danger and that's when Tess backed down and became more sympathetic.

The things you're saying makes no sense if you actually listen to what they're saying.
 

killatopak

Member
I was going to say they did an amazing job at the end but I rewatched the game version and it is really much better in my opinion and highlights Joel and Tess’ relationship more.

IF I didn’t know anything about the game though, I would say they did a pretty great job.

The infected being connected will have huge implication this point forward. I expect a lot of different set pieces that isn’t in the game.
 
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I was going to say they did an amazing job at the end but I rewatched the game version and it is really much better in my opinion and highlights Joel and Tess’ relationship more.

IF I didn’t know anything about the game though, I would say they did a pretty great job.

The infected being connected will have huge implication this point forward. I expect a lot of different set pieces that isn’t in the game.

Only thing I can think of is they wanted to minimize their relationship to highlight him opening up more with Ellie being something special.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Tess took over the conversation. THAT'S being in charge. Tess was ready to shoot Ellie after finding out she was infected. Joel would often say things to Tess and then she would push back. Joel only really spoke up to Tess outside of the QZ to Tess when he felt they were in danger and that's when Tess backed down and became more sympathetic.

The things you're saying makes no sense if you actually listen to what they're saying.
Which conversation? The Robert stuff? Marlene's new deal? Either way, it involved a deal I assume she made earlier so Joel let's her do all the talking. Tess would push back and convince Joel in the game, in the show Joel seems to need less convincing to get on board
 

Tripolygon

Member
I don't mind seeing women in charge but if it becomes a pattern then I will suspect it's some sort of theme with the writer(s) and ideology driven.
Yes it is an obvious pattern (Tess, Maria, Marlene, Seraphites, Abby, Ellie) and ideology driven. Is there any piece of writing that's not informed subconsciously or deliberately in part by the writers ideology? Neil wanted to write characters that are women his daughter at that time could see and be inspired by. It is a deliberate opposition to the damsel in distress trope. It's a theme in a lot Naughty Dog games, the women in uncharted are just as capable as the men if not more (Nadine).
 
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The last scene with Tess was a giant WTF, made no sense at first and left me thinking this may actually go to shit real fast...

But then I realized this is once again my vantage point bias knowing the game inside out and it really dawned on me - what they're doing here is solving one of the biggest plot holes of the game, one I see rarely discussed among the noise beatng dead horses over Joel's motivations and such.

Infected killing and devouring by default people actually makes no sense. You can try justify it in a number of ways but at its core - keeping future hosts alive is the only biologically valid way such parasite would behave.

I still hope Part 3 will stay true to the original lore, but I wouldn't mind taking some inspirations. Just bring spores back and we're good.

Overalll, a huge win for Dr. Uckmann. Curious how much more directing he gets offered in Season 2 and 3 and what does it mean for the future of his Dog duties.

I think he has a lot of possible futures

- Could be the next President of PlayStation Studios
- Could be the next President or Co-President of PlayStation Productions
- Could just stay as Co-President of Naughty Dog

Could do any of the three and still write TLOUP3

If you compare Druckmann with say Tetsuya Nomura, Neil has helped turn Naughty Dog into a multibillion-dollar studio whereas Nomura has really taken the life out of Final Fantasy and out of Square Enix. His stock is at an all-time high and Naughty Dog will probably need to quickly ramp up hiring if they're going to

Finish developing & Maintain TLOU Online
Develop TLOUP3
Develop Original IP

Reboot Uncharted with or without taking the lead
Remake or Reboot Jak and Daxter to coincide with the movie

Naughty Dog is going to need more staff than Bungie to do all of this. I could see them doubling in size in the next two years.
 

DForce

Member
Which conversation? The Robert stuff? Marlene's new deal? Either way, it involved a deal I assume she made earlier so Joel let's her do all the talking. Tess would push back and convince Joel in the game, in the show Joel seems to need less convincing to get on board
I quoted the dialog. Everyone isn't a conversation with Robert's men and Marlene, it also contains conversations with Joel.

You can't say it was 40/60 when she's leading nearly every single conversation in the game. If you remove deals and conversations with others then you barely have any dialog with Tess in the game.

Joel was actually more in charge on the TV show by comparison.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Yes it is an obvious pattern (Tess, Maria, Marlene, Seraphites, Abby) and ideology driven. Is there any piece of writing that's not informed subconsciously or deliberately in part by the writers ideology? Neil wanted to write characters that are women his daughter at that time could see and be inspired by. It is a deliberate opposition to the damsel in distress trope. It's a theme in a lot Naughty Dog games, the women in uncharted are just as capable as the men if not more.
Depends how preachy it can get, it's just something that's present and not a core part of the plot it usually doesn't bother me. I don't expect writers not to be influenced by their ideologies as long as they're subtle enough about it (and fairly present opposing views if they do).

TLOU story was pretty good so that's a good example (IMO) of being subtle enough with the women bosses theme.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
I quoted the dialog. Everyone isn't a conversation with Robert's men and Marlene, it also contains conversations with Joel.

You can't say it was 40/60 when she's leading nearly every single conversation in the game. If you remove deals and conversations with others then you barely have any dialog with Tess in the game.

Joel was actually more in charge on the TV show by comparison.
And I said Tess has moments where she looks at Joel to see if he agrees, she generally might have the lead when they're smuggling but the bigger decisions she seemed to verify with Joel in the game. I got that impression less in the TV show.

Even if I change the 40/60 thing for you it would still be lower than what I rate it for the TV show.
 
Naughty Dog is going to need more staff than Bungie to do all of this. I could see them doubling in size in the next two years.
They have actually doubled their studio size in the last 18 months. From ~325 to ~760 now.

But I agree with you. With the money that'll be pouring into Naughty Dog now and the expectations to work on multiple games: a new IP as well as speed production of TLOU 3, they need to be a 1300-1500 people studio to do all that.
  • Maintain TLOU Online
  • Develop TLOU 3
  • Develop a new IP
  • Support the next Uncharted
  • Build an internal xDev team (like Guerrilla) to expand TLOU universe by outsourcing to other studios and have them build side stories and games with different characters.
 

John Bilbo

Member
And the whole "infected are all conected" is a little eh ... to much, even for a franchise with zombies, imo

To think that touching some vine on the ground would alert all infected in the area ...
The infected being connected will have huge implication this point forward. I expect a lot of different set pieces that isn’t in the game.
Maybe they will use this as a new horde based game mechanic in the upcoming Factions game or in Part 3 of the main game series.
 

Grildon Tundy

Gold Member
The clicker scene was perfect. Amazing direction by Neil. All the Neil haters can suck a dick. This guy has proven he can direct movie quality cutscenes in video games and now he's doing that in a tv show.

Big fan of the part in the museum where Joel leans against a column with the Clicker in the background while he tries to silently reload his revolver. Camera pans so you can't see the Clicker anymore, then you hear it right next to Joel. Good, tense stuff!
 

Hugare

Member
Maybe they will use this as a new horde based game mechanic in the upcoming Factions game or in Part 3 of the main game series.
Maybe, and I know its hypocrital to say this on a game about zombies, but it's so gamey and unrealistic

EDIT: And tho I love the flashback scenes, like the one with the doctor on this episode, it takes away from Joel and Ellie a bit.

TLOU is all about Joel/Ellie relationship. Trying to develop world building even further is cool, but its a trade off. And it may take away from some emotional impact later on with the main characters.
 
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HTK

Member
I'm over the whole debate about Pascal and Bella being Joel and Ellie. They've done a great job since Episode 1 and I feel like that's the toughest sell than probably later episodes. It's the last thing on my mind, they are Joel and Ellie. The End.

In terms of Neil Duckmann, he's done a great job directing Episode 2. I'm sure Neil is also learning quite a bit on the job of directing and being involved in the show, surely this will translate into future Naughty Dog games that he's involved in.
 

Gaelyon

Member
Episode 2 was great and very faithful to the early part of the game. Joel and ellie crawling at the museum with torches, joel reloading, the amazing makeup of the clickers, their strange walking around and the chilling clicking sound were all familiar and immersive.
There were many small interesting snippets like the little frog jumping on the piano or Joel uncontrolled quick look at his broken watch just after talking to ellie on the roof.
The intro at Jakarta was well done but didn't feel that realistic. That fungi doctor came to the conclusion that bombing her city killing millions of peoples was the only way in a few minutes.
Tess's fate was so creepy it was a relief when everything is blown away.
Anyway it sound like we'll have a prequel intro each episode ?
 
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John Bilbo

Member
Maybe, and I know its hypocrital to say this on a game about zombies, but it's so gamey and unrealistic
Yup it's like a hivemind mechanic. Maybe in the end it will play out in killing the fungus.
EDIT: And tho I love the flashback scenes, like the one with the doctor on this episode, it takes away from Joel and Ellie a bit.

TLOU is all about Joel/Ellie relationship. Trying to develop world building even further is cool, but its a trade off. And it may take away from some emotional impact later on with the main characters.
So what I got away from the fungal doctor was she had studied fungi her whole life and her belief was there is no cure and there is no vaccine to be made.

I think this info was purposefully set up in the beginning of the second episode when in the second episode the main characters are making a decision about how far are they willing to risk their own lives for a possible cure or vaccine.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Episode 2 was great, and Neil nailed the mood and Clicker creepiness it in his directing debut.

The actors being Joel and Ellie are starting to quickly grow on me, and this episode was definitely more convincing in their dialogue and banter with one another. Anna Torv was fantastic as Tess.
 
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The cherry on top is the absolute the venom and toxicity ND^2 has received.

These people couldn't keep up with all the good will the show has received and that renewed good will the games are receiving.

I don't think I've ever seen such a completely devastating comeback against a toxic group in gaming.
 

Hugare

Member
Yup it's like a hivemind mechanic. Maybe in the end it will play out in killing the fungus.

So what I got away from the fungal doctor was she had studied fungi her whole life and her belief was there is no cure and there is no vaccine to be made.

I think this info was purposefully set up in the beginning of the second episode when in the second episode the main characters are making a decision about how far are they willing to risk their own lives for a possible cure or vaccine.

The doctor saying that there's no cure, and the same thing with the first doctor on Episode 1 didnt land right with me

The cool thing with the original ending is the duality. You dont know if Joel made the right call or not. Maybe they would have made a vaccine?

But the tv show is making Joel's decision obvious, and it will take something away from the ending.
 

Fools idol

Member
The cherry on top is the absolute the venom and toxicity ND^2 has received.

These people couldn't keep up with all the good will the show has received and that renewed good will the games are receiving.

I don't think I've ever seen such a completely devastating comeback against a toxic group in gaming.

Sorry if I am misreading your post, but what toxic group are you talking about exactly? people that don't like the show? bar the odd 'waaahh, black people playing white characters' drivel it's pretty much unanimous love around here which is good to see.

I mean, someones dislike of something doesn't make them toxic.. lol
 
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John Bilbo

Member
The doctor saying that there's no cure, and the same thing with the first doctor on Episode 1 didnt land right with me

The cool thing with the original ending is the duality. You dont know if Joel made the right call or not. Maybe they would have made a vaccine?

But the tv show is making Joel's decision obvious, and it will take something away from the ending.
You might be right. But then again we don't know how the story will play out in the end.
 

Fools idol

Member
Have you ever heard about Tlou p2 subreddit? : ))

I'm sure there're some people on Neogaf joined that subreddit

Ah ok got it. I guess there has been some bullshittery over there then.

Honestly, on a purely critical / personal taste neutral standpoint there is very, very hard to find faults wth the show. It's that good quality, and a top tier level of an adaption.

Tbh the bar has been set very high for future game-to-tv series.
 

saintjules

Member
Episode 2 was great, and Neil nailed the mood and Clicker creepiness it in his directing debut.

The actors being Joel and Ellie are starting to quickly grow on me, and this episode was definitely more convincing in their dialogue and banter with one another. Anna Torv was fantastic as Tess.

I agree with this. I mean, it would be really weird if they didn't nail the Clicker sounds, especially with Neil directing. It's like nailing Spider-Man's web slinging in the game. It just has to get nailed right.
 
Sorry if I am misreading your post, but what toxic group are you talking about exactly? people that don't like the show? bar the odd 'waaahh, black people playing white characters' drivel it's pretty much unanimous love around here which is good to see.

I mean, someones dislike of something doesn't make them toxic.. lol

I'm talking about the toxic group that review bombed TLOU2, have hounded Naughty Dog with hate comments, and have been calling Neil, "Neil Cuckmann" for almost 3 years...
 

Fools idol

Member
I'm talking about the toxic group that review bombed TLOU2, have hounded Naughty Dog with hate comments, and have been calling Neil, "Neil Cuckmann" for almost 3 years...

Yeah, re-read your post again and realise what you said, my bad.

I thought you were specifically talking about the thread were in.

I understand why people disliked TLOU2 but to react the way they did is just pathetic. The game and writing was amazing, and it was brutal of them to kill of a beloved character, but it worked out for an amazing story.
 

Bartski

Gold Member
I'm talking about the toxic group that review bombed TLOU2, have hounded Naughty Dog with hate comments, and have been calling Neil, "Neil Cuckmann" for almost 3 years...
his co-workers call him Cuckmann on twitter, including Craig Mazin. It's a total meme right now, and likely his nickname at the studio
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Yeah, re-read your post again and realise what you said, my bad.

I thought you were specifically talking about the thread were in.

I understand why people disliked TLOU2 but to react the way they did is just pathetic. The game and writing was amazing, and it was brutal of them to kill of a beloved character, but it worked out for an amazing story.

I loved TLOU2 as well but the game’s writing being amazing is subjective. Many people outright hated the story, and their view is a valid one even if I disagree. Having been a fan of MGS2 & FFVIII, I have accepted that some people will hate things that I love and thats ok.
 

John Bilbo

Member
I loved TLOU2 as well but the game’s writing being amazing is subjective. Many people outright hated the story, and their view is a valid one even if I disagree. Having been a fan of MGS2 & FFVIII, I have accepted that some people will hate things that I love and thats ok.
I consider this to be the basis of every civil conversation.
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
I'm liking the show but tbh honest I prefer the acting in the game much better, the characters have better emotion and lines delivery. I think people who haven't played the game will enjoy the show much better than us.
I think it's because of the casting. The characters dont resemble what we had already seen on screen which is unlike book adaptations that only relied on our imagination of these characters.

The show does a great job bringing over set locales, dialogue and entire setpieces from the game trying to stay true to the source material, but the fucked up the casting which is arguably the most important part of staying true to the source material. For example, they made a scene out of a very missable Ellie side encounter in the game. Ive played the game 6 times and never saw this scene.

But changing Joel's iconic SHOW IT TO ME line and Christ reaction to a very muted Pedro reaction is a very bizarre decision by Neil. I get that hollywood leads are supposed to be subdued and stoic but it just doesnt work when you start the episode with Joel still shaking after killing a dude the night before.


I swear if they change a single line from that ending or change anything about that the Ellie killing Dave scene when the audio cuts out, im gonna riot.
 
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Tripolygon

Member
I swear if they change a single line from that ending or change anything about that the Ellie killing Dave scene when the audio cuts out, im gonna riot.
How about you just enjoy this new take on the characters? They deliberately discouraged the actors from watching the game or anything relating to the game so they can give an honest portrayal instead of trying to imitate what was done by Ashley and Troy etc. Even Troy himself is loving the things Pedro is adding like Joel pulling away from Tess when she revealed she was infected. It was not scripted, it was an honest reaction by Pedro.

Or riot. Lol
 

SlimySnake

The Contrarian
Or riot. Lol

 

SenjutsuSage

Halo TV Series Promoter - Live from: Reach
Show is fucking fantastic. Another huge L for anybody who said this girl could not play Ellie. She's fantastic. The more she gets a chance to speak and engage, the more impressive her character looks. I'm no longer solely focused on Joel. She's becoming as much of a favorite as Joel's character, if not slightly more.
 
The more i think about it, the more i realize
The cherry on top is the absolute the venom and toxicity ND^2 has received.

These people couldn't keep up with all the good will the show has received and that renewed good will the games are receiving.

I don't think I've ever seen such a completely devastating comeback against a toxic group in gaming.
The thing about this IP is that everything is both critically and commercially successful. And now it's only about to get bigger to the point that the TLOU2 criticism isn't even that loud anymore.
 
And the whole "infected are all conected" is a little eh ... to much, even for a franchise with zombies, imo

To think that touching some vine on the ground would alert all infected in the area ...

Still a good episode, but the first one was so much better
That idea is probably based on the fungal network all over the world.

Watch the "Fantastic Fungi" documentary on Netflix, really interesting stuff.

As for ep 2, it's a great episode and they've somehow managed to put the gameplay into the series, but it feels a bit rushed as well if you know the game.
 

SenjutsuSage

Halo TV Series Promoter - Live from: Reach
Yup, so far, every scene thats almost identical in dialogue is much better in the game

This was the very warning I made to others about Halo (yea, yea, I get it, others think it sucks, I love it), don't approach this show from the perspective where you are expecting every piece of what you know from the games to be the same. There needs to be room for writers to write, adjust, shorten and even expand on some things because they're working with a set format for a specific number of episodes in the first season. So sometimes they need to do less of a thing, other times they need to do more of a thing, and other times they need to change or relocate something else while still maintaining the spirit of its meaning, sorta like how they dropped that Master Chief's Silver Team in the Halo TV Series had lost a fellow Spartan in the same way that Chief's Blue Team lost a fellow Spartan in the Halo books. The name didn't have to be the same, the circumstances didn't need to be fully fleshed out or exactly identical, but they serve the same narrative purpose, so the name not being Samuel like in the books and with Blue Team is irrelevant.

So yea, this show is fantastic.
 

SenjutsuSage

Halo TV Series Promoter - Live from: Reach
That idea is probably based on the fungal network all over the world.

Watch the "Fantastic Fungi" documentary on Netflix, really interesting stuff.

As for ep 2, it's a great episode and they've somehow managed to put the gameplay into the series, but it feels a bit rushed as well if you know the game.

It's extremely fucking clever, which is why exactly why I'm always open-minded to these kinds of shows being allowed to explore a bit of creative freedom with the material.
 

rofif

Member
Finally caught up and watched both Episodes. WOW I am very impressed!!!
I was not expecting it to be this good !!!
The casting is spot on. Now we know why the Part1 exists haha.

Ellie is my biggest surprise. I was expecting only big weird forehead and she is AMAZING.
Joel is Perfect.
 
this is just further solidfying my stance that Last of Us is one of the most overrated games of all time. Because the show is way better than the game. And the shows not amazing or anything. The first episode was pretty good. The 2nd is alright. In scale of HBO shows its average. Its no game of thrones or Sopranos. And still its light years above the game.

Im on my 3rd or 4th attempt to play the game. I've quit every time because i hate the gameplay. And boy are the first couple hours annoying af. Maybe one reason the show is good is because Pedro Pascal isn't fist fighting or putting a rear naked choke on a zombie every 3 minutes
 

DForce

Member
And I said Tess has moments where she looks at Joel to see if he agrees, she generally might have the lead when they're smuggling but the bigger decisions she seemed to verify with Joel in the game. I got that impression less in the TV show.

Even if I change the 40/60 thing for you it would still be lower than what I rate it for the TV show.
Bigger decisions she seemed to very with Joel?

How many times has this happened in the game? Tell me what happened.
 

bargeparty

Member
Drive by post

show is ok, they're faithful on some things and making odd/dumb choices with others. You can't beat perfection so why even try?

the more I idly think about these eps the more it annoys me
 
Drive by post

show is ok, they're faithful on some things and making odd/dumb choices with others. You can't beat perfection so why even try?

the more I idly think about these eps the more it annoys me
the only change they've made in the show, that might not be better than the games, is the change from spores to tendrils. Everything else has been better. Unlike George Lucas who sat around for a decade deciding how to ruin his movies. Druckman at least took the time to say, wait that was stupid why did i do that a decade ago, lets change that
 

Lokaum D+

Member
so far is a good show, the game is better, but the show is good too, atm is a 8/10 for me

Edit: wtf was that
fungus kiss at the end of ep02
 
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