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Health Regeneration in Games :(
- Thread starter D3MO
- Start date
Stabby McSter
Member
you want realism? i say shot to the leg, you go down and start screaming and yelling in pain.AtomicShroom said:
INSTAGAMEOVER!
titiklabingapat
Member
Fuck you all, I like health regeneration, especially in RTS.
PhoenixDark
Banned
D3MO said:
Complaining about one thing being "unrealistic" in a videogame like CoD4 is kinda dumb, don't you think? I hate to break it to ya, butb eing able to withstand multiple gun shots is unrealistic too:lol
Zapperkhan
Member
So true, but yea I abuse the hell outta it in CoD4 pop someone and hide rinse repeat. I don't like the regenerating health but I'm gonna abuse it while it's there.PhoenixDark said:
The good thing about regenerating health as a game mechanic is that it allows the developer to design every game encounter with the assumption that you'll have full health. With a non-regenerating health system, the developers have to worry about the player being stuck in impossible situations due to low health, and health pack placement (Do you just litter them everywhere? May as well have regenerating health, if so. What if there's an encounter coming up that you want the player to have full health for, but don't want to give away? A bunch of health packs will likely telegraph the encounter, just like seeing a whole bunch of ammo or a save point).
I think non-regenerating health can work really well, especially when you can have a player at low health for a long time (and thus increasing tension) without killing him. But games with non-regenerating health have to be very carefully designed to take advantage of the system, and most aren't; it's been used because it's been convention, just like regenerating health is slowly becoming convention now.
I think non-regenerating health can work really well, especially when you can have a player at low health for a long time (and thus increasing tension) without killing him. But games with non-regenerating health have to be very carefully designed to take advantage of the system, and most aren't; it's been used because it's been convention, just like regenerating health is slowly becoming convention now.
Red Scarlet
Member
PhoenixDark said:
Say what, PD?
I don't know anything about the Dynasty Warrior games.
rollingstart
Banned
Red Scarlet said:
oh yeah, I heard he was shot 9 times? was it true he was shot 9 times? seriously shot 9 times?
Stoney Mason
Banned
PhoenixDark said:
There are levels of realism and abstraction. Some people keep making the argument that it's a videogame so no rules are allowed. Should I also be able to fly in Call Of Duty too if that made it more fun?
As I said, I don't overly mind either way but people can make the argument a completely regenerating health meter is more of an abstraction than a meter measuring a level of health.
GeneralIroh
Member
I think the only 9 shots he took were flu shots.Linkzg said:
You people complaining about the COD4 health system, should go and play the sniper mission on veteran and then tell me if it is something that is doable with just lets say 3 or 4 "health packs". Regenerating Health is unrealistic, but at the same time it allows for the player to enjoy a hard game mode without pulling his/her hair.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
Stoney Mason said:
Yes.
Imperial Hot
Banned
I think Health Regeneration can work in games that should not have it. For example, in the Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway their is health regeneration but it works by turning the screen red indicating you are likely to get shot. You actually die when a bullet hits you, but the screen gets progressively redder as you are being shot at, not being hit, but shot at. Once your screen is red, you are hit and killed.
a Master Ninja
Member
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I haven't read the EGM story yet but THAT does not make me happy._dementia said:
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Slavik81 said:
Exactly. The current trend of developers aping regenerating health systems for no good reason is a dumb one, spurred by unreasonable Halo-worship. Before Halo, some games used regenerating health (eg. a lot of games had regenerating shields over base health) and some used traditional health-pack systems. Now, tons of FPSes use regeneration even when it detracts from the game or makes no sense within the game's universe or gameplay style.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
zenbot said:
That's totally incorrect. Half-Life 2, for example, puts health stations before areas where they want the player to have full health. There's little or no telegraphing, either, because seeing a health station/bunch of health packs doesn't always mean there'll be a big encounter.
Simply put, health pack systems give flexibility to the developer. They can allow the player to have max health for an encounter, they can force the player to operate at some level below max health, or they can partially refill the player's health while still punishing careless players and rewarding careful ones. Spurring level exploration is another optional side benefit.
By contrast, regenerating systems force the developers into one mode, over and over and over.
zenbot said:
It actually doesn't require careful design. You want the player to have max health, you give it to them before the encounter. Simple.
I wish more SP FPS games had a difficulty like Veteran on CoD1. CoD1 had the health packs, but on Veteran they're removed completely. I agree that regenerating health is dumb in CoD2 and beyond, but at least on Veteran it doesn't really give you any big advantage. Although that's the same as the excuse of "lol play Halo on Heroic/Legendary to get the full experience" just because they can't balance the lower difficulties.
I vastly prefer health packs to regenerating health for the most part, but it's ok in some things. It's just that regenerating health is either hard to justify in the game world or it drastically unbalances things. It's not that I like hunting for health packs, it's just that I prefer the greater challenge/freedom afforded by letting you skip health packs compared to having regenerating health.
Still, I would kill for an ironman/hardcore mode for FPS where you can't recover health until you clear a level (not a checkpoint, a full level) so it would be more of a challenge.
I vastly prefer health packs to regenerating health for the most part, but it's ok in some things. It's just that regenerating health is either hard to justify in the game world or it drastically unbalances things. It's not that I like hunting for health packs, it's just that I prefer the greater challenge/freedom afforded by letting you skip health packs compared to having regenerating health.
Still, I would kill for an ironman/hardcore mode for FPS where you can't recover health until you clear a level (not a checkpoint, a full level) so it would be more of a challenge.
BobJustBob
Member
Red Scarlet said:
Heh, I had forgotten saying that. It's totally true though.
Slavik81 said:
No there doesn't. There should be a penalty for playing poorly, sure, even if that penalty is the lack of the reward that you get for playing well. But why must it be a game over screen and a reload? Why can't it be a loss of money like in Saints Row or a loss of money and weapons like in GTA or whatever the hell happens in Bioshock? Why isn't that punishment enough?
Bladestorm handles this really well. I'm only a few hours in so maybe it changes, but currently death just means you lose some money and some of your earned renown for the mission (you never lose renown; you just earn less) and even though you have to restart the mission your progress is saved so it's more a reset of the time limit than any kind of penalty. You're never backtracking; you're merely advancing more slowly. That's the way it should be.
But, eh, this isn't the kind of thing that really needs to be argued. It's a universal truth, and like all wisdom it comes with age. You may not agree with me now, but you will.
I don't know that Half-Life 2 is an excellent example of a good non-regenerating health system, at least on the normal difficulty. HL2 kept me in health packs enough that I never even really noticed my health.Chairman Yang said:
Agreed, but I don't think many developers—and particularly FPS developers—utilize this flexibilty very well.Chairman Yang said:
Actually, thinking on it a bit further, I think perhaps that certain genres are more suited to non-regenerating health than others. I'm not a huge fan of its use in FPSs, because it can be very difficult to avoid being damaged in an FPS (for example, in the canals in HL2, when combine are taking potshots and kicking flaming barrels down at you, I found it difficult not to take small amounts of damage from stray bullets or barrel splash damage); whereas it makes sense to me in a game like Mario or Ninja Gaiden, because I have greater control in those games over whether or not I take damage. But I'm just thinkin' here.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this.Chairman Yang said:
JumpJeff84
Member
I personally like health regeneration in FPS games. Let me concentrate on the shooty-shooty stuff and not have to hunt for health packs....
Attack You
Member
Lack of Gungrave in this thread makes me a sad panda. Also, I'm stockpiling explosives for the day health regen becomes standard in Fighters. Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with item-assisted health regen -- like, a weapon that gives you back a pixel of health per hit, not something that just gives it all back in a matter of seconds. Most people blame Halo, which I think made it popular, but I blame Mario 64
. I wonder if they fixed that for Mario 64DS?
Edit: I will grant exception to Darkstalkers' health regen system, though. But really, that's mostly because I'm a fan. (swoon)
only slightly less than I blame Halo
Edit: I will grant exception to Darkstalkers' health regen system, though. But really, that's mostly because I'm a fan. (swoon)
This is hot.Red Scarlet said:
I agree that recharging health is unrealistic, but I think it's sort of the lesser of two evils between that and the extremely gamey notion of magical health packs littered around the battlefield. Taking cover for a few seconds and somehow regaining health breaks the illusion of realism a lot less than a glowing white and red box hovering a foot off the ground on the fields of WW2. And gameplay wise, I find desperately searching for health packs when I'm near death to be one of the more tedious and annoying things that can happen in a game.
And as wonderful as a single, unhealable health bar per mission sounds, it opens a whole can of worms with people being forced to repeat entire missions over and over because they mismanaged their health supply, which might appeal to a few hardcore fans, but wouldn't sit well with the average joe that makes up the bulk of the shooter playing populace.
And as wonderful as a single, unhealable health bar per mission sounds, it opens a whole can of worms with people being forced to repeat entire missions over and over because they mismanaged their health supply, which might appeal to a few hardcore fans, but wouldn't sit well with the average joe that makes up the bulk of the shooter playing populace.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
zenbot said:
Well, that's more a function of the game difficulty rather than a consequence of the health system.
zenbot said:
No argument there. On the flipside, though, devs often don't use regenerating systems well either.
zenbot said:
That makes sense. A health pack system can reward careful players by being stingy enough to only max out health if the player has enough. But if the player loses health regardless of skill, what's the point?
zenbot said:
Well, every health system needs careful design if it's going to be really good, but if you want something basic, I don't see the big design challenge with a health pack system. You want to top up the player's health before a big encounter, you put a health station or a bunch of health packs there. That's it.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Whoompthereitis said:
I think the "health pack hunt" thing is mostly a myth nowadays. Again, Half-Life 2 makes it pretty obvious where the health is. Some of it is hidden away, but so is ammo, so players are going to look around anyways.
BlackTyrano
Member
Regening health is basically health packs that are behind every wall and corner. It lets people get off easily from small mistakes rather than punishing them, so the games lose some precision and depth in exchange for accessibility. I like the single healthbar for a level system, but healthpacks can be used to split the levels somewhat into "smaller levels" for the same basic idea. They should be used sparingly, though.
Attack You
Member
We need more games that constantly drain your health. Screw camping; run or DIE.
If the game doesn't demand the realistic depiction of healing, I like (generally speaking) environmental links and processes like drinking water or finding a shadowed or sunlit spot to stand in or (KUF) getting near to trees. I also love medipack tension, though - when I can see one, and I know I'll probably want one, but there's a risk involved in getting it or an enemy incidentally (unwittingly) guarding it.
VictimOfGrief
Banned
you're taking complete realism as in I.E. , if you get shoot, you had better have a f'ning mini game on taking the bullet(s) out and bandaging your wounds... BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!! Not only do you treat your wounds but then you get 1/4 way into the game... and because the developer was on a "realistic" kick.... no saves.... and then you get a certain type of flu like symptom and die 1/4 way into the game because you forgot to give yourself a shot.
What was my point in saying all of that.
It's been discussed to death.
Fun vs. Realism. If you have people hunting for health packs throughout the game, then WTF is the point of the game? Health rations? Sure, maybe a set amount but why make the gamer... no... why PUNISH the gamer for hunting for staying alive? At which point does it cross the line and deter from the game play?
It's a balance that some games (like HL2 mentioned) finds a good balance but then you have some dissatisfied people that want to bitch about health regeneration and don't focus on the game play aspects.
Quite frankly when my entire screen goes red in COD4, I flip the f out and get to cover faster than a camel can spit. Why? Because I die if I don't.
There will always be games that do health better than others.... that's just a fact.
What was my point in saying all of that.
It's been discussed to death.
Fun vs. Realism. If you have people hunting for health packs throughout the game, then WTF is the point of the game? Health rations? Sure, maybe a set amount but why make the gamer... no... why PUNISH the gamer for hunting for staying alive? At which point does it cross the line and deter from the game play?
It's a balance that some games (like HL2 mentioned) finds a good balance but then you have some dissatisfied people that want to bitch about health regeneration and don't focus on the game play aspects.
Quite frankly when my entire screen goes red in COD4, I flip the f out and get to cover faster than a camel can spit. Why? Because I die if I don't.
There will always be games that do health better than others.... that's just a fact.
i'm all for regeneration and i'm even for not having the gameover screens anymore either. there were plenty of times on SP where i was challenged in all of the Halo games. i don't buy the "too easy" argument since it relies on the overall game design. any number of things can make any game too easy, if it's poorly designed, including this, but it's possible to have it, and still a game incredibly difficult.
i much prefer the regeneration to the frustration that occurs with health packs or, worse still, the games where you can't be healed at all. with health packs, sometimes i try to save them thinking i might need them worse later. as in, the health pack restores 25% but i'm 90% full already, and i'd rather wait until i take more damage to use it. then i have to remember where they're at, backtrack, and in some cases realize that i can't backtrack far enough back, which pisses me off to no end. i did this a lot in Condemned.
i much prefer the regeneration to the frustration that occurs with health packs or, worse still, the games where you can't be healed at all. with health packs, sometimes i try to save them thinking i might need them worse later. as in, the health pack restores 25% but i'm 90% full already, and i'd rather wait until i take more damage to use it. then i have to remember where they're at, backtrack, and in some cases realize that i can't backtrack far enough back, which pisses me off to no end. i did this a lot in Condemned.
Big Chief Crazy Cone
Member
I dont know I personally loved it in Deus Ex that specific parts of your body could be hurt and that would impact your character. If he was left handed and you had your left arm blown off you couldnt fire guns anymore IIRC. I know that if you fell too long a distance you would lose your legs and have to crawl... that always gave me a laugh. I wish more games would use a complex health system like that, as opposed to one bar where 0 means "you dead"
Health regeneration made FPS far more accessible than ever before. I never used to play FPS until Halo, and the only reason I played Halo all the way through was because of health regeneration. At the time, I was horrible at FPS and was intimidated by the old health system. Regeneration allowed me to have fun playing FPS games, and now that I'm better and used to them, I also like games without regeneration, like Half-Life 2.
I still think regeneration should be in most FPS games, it vastly improves the size of the audience.
I still think regeneration should be in most FPS games, it vastly improves the size of the audience.
Healthpacks are good in single player games like doom and quake(the first one).
One bar or no health is good for games that are ment to be challenging(or realistic) but they have to be extremely well built or have very short levels.
Regenerating health fits most single player games the best right now.
One bar or no health is good for games that are ment to be challenging(or realistic) but they have to be extremely well built or have very short levels.
Regenerating health fits most single player games the best right now.
a Master Ninja
Member
It was really more of a mission timer in disguise.Salazar said:
Rekki-Maru
Banned
ninja gaiden 2's health system looks interesting.
soul creator
Member
Attack You said:
video game based on "Crank"? heh
Attack You
Member
It's not auto-regen, but I think Killer7 handled it pretty good by rewarding skill shots and giving the player the option of either healing or upgrading. My point being, I don't agree with "free" health regen.