A Link to the Past
Banned
How recent of games does the list cover?
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HG101 Presents The 200 Best Video Games of All Time (Available Now!)
- Thread starter SmiteOfHand
- Start date
cj_iwakura
Member
The newest one is probably Danganronpa 2, or thereabouts.
A Link to the Past
Banned
All right, thanks
thiagosimoes
Member
Why do you absolutely have to choose one? I don't need to completely forget Ocarina of Time has ever existed just because I like Majora's Mask more. What I'm saying is that the very perception that only one must be chosen is flawed and makes for a very disappointing result. If you're dealing with the best games of all time, this is not the kind of conceptual choice that should be made at all in the first place. I can't, for the life of me, agree with your line of thought.
Also, do you really feel like you can make yourself, or anybody else, forget everything about your memories when playing a game, so your choices can be labeled as "objective"? Again, this is not how things work in real life. This list seems to be highly idealized thanks to this very hard to understand restriction that shouldn't even have been made to begin with.
I understand, however, that some restrictions had to be made anyway in order to avoid extreme repetition. It's great that you tried to create a list that looks different from all the other lists, but I still believe it would have been a better decision if there was some kind of disclaimer like "here are 50 great games that are great and very relevant, but everybody has talked about them already and we're not touching them here. now we have 200 more great games and we'll cover them on this book". What we got instead is "here is a list of the greatest games of all time. like it or not this is our opinion. please understand".
cj_iwakura
Member
Pretty sure the same author who wrote the HG101 article did it. I'm sure they did.
Just read it, and while he understates the OST greatly, he does "get" it. Nice!
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Witcher 3 and Bloodborne no?
cj_iwakura
Member
Oh yeah, I forgot those were added.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
If you're trying to make a list with some real integrity, you need to separate your nostalgic feelings from the actual game when making a list like this. It's fairly easy to do this. Go back and try to play it. Hell, find a younger sibling, a niece/newphew or kid and see what they think. Not all games age well. In my mind, Chrome Trigger aged masterfully. Final Fantasy VII did not. Quaker III Arena aged decently. GoldenEye did not. Street Fighter II aged well. Killer Instinct, not so much.
What do you think are the biggest omissions?Not enough Sega games...
TwiztidElf
Member
"The best 200 games of all time"
Mario64 and Zelda:OOT, two games that always make top 20 lists aren't even on a top 200?
GTFO of here with that shit.
Mario64 and Zelda:OOT, two games that always make top 20 lists aren't even on a top 200?
GTFO of here with that shit.
TwiztidElf
Member
This is just flatout wrong. OOT is an absolute education in game design. It set so many gameplay design decisions that are still heavily used in gaming today, that DID NOT EXIST prior to it. It is perhaps one of the most important video games ever made. The same arguments can be made for Mario64 for that matter.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Jesus, people really love the status quo.
Most people don't play games to get an "education in game design."
To boot, the bolded is irrelevant.
cj_iwakura
Member
You can tell that from any top [x] list thread here. I'm happy I got to show Dragon Force some love, the rest is bonus.
RadarScope1
Member
HG101 is fantastic. I will probably jump on this Patreon and spring for the physical book, too.
PassiveObserver
Member
Some people get twisted over lists.
cartman414
Member
VI was chosen to represent the story-driven part of the FF series (see also, IV, VII and most of its followups). The rest save for XIII were considered worthy as well, but VI got a special nod for its multiple character focus and lack of 32-bit era bloat.
Gameplay > story, which is why 5 got its own entry.
OoT is also one of the most laboriously paced.
Mario 64 was too different from prior Marios.
Galaxy (2) got the nod for really getting the platforming into the 3d space.
SmiteOfHand
Member
When the N64 launched my best friend got it with a copy of Mario 64. His TV was old and had this weird problem where trying to connect the console with whatever AV plug that came in the box would make it look like scrambled TV porn. We messed with it for hours until realizing it was useless and we would need to get the (coaxial?) adapter to make it work. His parents flat denied that proposition, probably because how much they just spent on the console and the game.
We weren't going to let that get us down. We managed to get 3 stars over the weekend via an insane process of playing the game in this bizarre way. Not long after we got it hooked up proper and marathoned the shit out of it.
It is a memory I am incredibly fond of and is one of my favorite video game experiences I have ever had despite experiencing the early parts of the game in such a strange way. You don't have to tell me how much Mario 64 matters because the circumstances around how I experienced it means more to me than any one at Nintendo could ever intentionally construct.
Point of this little anecdote is that despite that, someone thinking Galaxy 2 is the greatest 3d platformer Nintendo has ever created is no issue for me. Galaxy 2 is an incredible game. It makes the same sense to me as how people will argue over SMB3 and SMW but nobody complains that the original, Super Mario Bros, rarely gets its 'proper acknowledgment' for the massive impact it had. It is understood that its original impact is encapsulated in SMB3/SMW.
We weren't going to let that get us down. We managed to get 3 stars over the weekend via an insane process of playing the game in this bizarre way. Not long after we got it hooked up proper and marathoned the shit out of it.
It is a memory I am incredibly fond of and is one of my favorite video game experiences I have ever had despite experiencing the early parts of the game in such a strange way. You don't have to tell me how much Mario 64 matters because the circumstances around how I experienced it means more to me than any one at Nintendo could ever intentionally construct.
Point of this little anecdote is that despite that, someone thinking Galaxy 2 is the greatest 3d platformer Nintendo has ever created is no issue for me. Galaxy 2 is an incredible game. It makes the same sense to me as how people will argue over SMB3 and SMW but nobody complains that the original, Super Mario Bros, rarely gets its 'proper acknowledgment' for the massive impact it had. It is understood that its original impact is encapsulated in SMB3/SMW.
Turin Turambar
Member
Agreed!
cartman414
Member
Personal thoughts:
Good call on Dracula X for old-school Castlevania. You neglected to specify the Japanese version of CV3 as the one to check out. Not just for sound, but also balanced difficulty level.
Gradius Gaiden was another brilliant pick. Aside from Gradius V, Life Force for the NES/Famicom (and perhaps Gradius II) would have also come recommended for being a brilliant midpoint between the fast action of the arcade original and the methodical gameplay of the rest of the series, to say nothing of the brilliant soundtrack.
Even with less traditional picks chosen to represent other franchises/etc., I shouldn't have been too surprised Symphony of the Night would represent Metroidvania. I still disagree with the assessment on the rest though. Aria and Dawn eschewed the castle design excesses of Symphony for a smoother flowing experience, and Order, while challenging, wasn't challenging in the right way; they resorted to the "weak to one element, strong against everything else" on too many monsters, making things a little cheap.
If there's one true disappointment, it's that there was nothing to represent old-school run 'n' gun Contra (that is, generally sans the setpiece battles). Or to a lesser extent, Donkey Kong '94 just missing the cut for the main list. But given that Zelda II and Puyo Puyo Tsu/2 both made it just to name a couple, I'm pretty satisfied. Well done.
Good call on Dracula X for old-school Castlevania. You neglected to specify the Japanese version of CV3 as the one to check out. Not just for sound, but also balanced difficulty level.
Gradius Gaiden was another brilliant pick. Aside from Gradius V, Life Force for the NES/Famicom (and perhaps Gradius II) would have also come recommended for being a brilliant midpoint between the fast action of the arcade original and the methodical gameplay of the rest of the series, to say nothing of the brilliant soundtrack.
Even with less traditional picks chosen to represent other franchises/etc., I shouldn't have been too surprised Symphony of the Night would represent Metroidvania. I still disagree with the assessment on the rest though. Aria and Dawn eschewed the castle design excesses of Symphony for a smoother flowing experience, and Order, while challenging, wasn't challenging in the right way; they resorted to the "weak to one element, strong against everything else" on too many monsters, making things a little cheap.
If there's one true disappointment, it's that there was nothing to represent old-school run 'n' gun Contra (that is, generally sans the setpiece battles). Or to a lesser extent, Donkey Kong '94 just missing the cut for the main list. But given that Zelda II and Puyo Puyo Tsu/2 both made it just to name a couple, I'm pretty satisfied. Well done.
PassiveObserver
Member
Shinobi 3D eh? That's been sitting on my pile for a while and I haven't gotten past the second stage. Balls hard, but I can tell the mechanics are tight as hell. Sigh I'll never be as hardcore as HG101.
Mother 3 is the "See Also" listing for Earthbound and although I don't have the book immediately on hand, I remember thinking the entry was passionate enough that it must have been a close race to decide which of those two took the main slot.
This is a huge flaw in all of my writing, in that I CANNOT write about a soundtrack without going into way more detail than what would normally be able to fit into any of our books. Looking at the draft I did have a little more to say about it but we only have so much space a page/etc. IIRC the entries for Silent Hill, Otogi and Shattered Soldier are the only ones where I touch on the soundtrack a little more. But either way I'm always happy to see people appreciate Nier's music and atmosphere.
Retromelon
Member
its so easy to nitpick classic games' flaws to death and loftily proclaim why in the context of 2015 their luster is lost to the ages. it's harder to recall that faded, faint memory of how amazing they were the first time, before one turns jaded and worn down by everything that has come since.
the flow of time is always cruel
the flow of time is always cruel
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Never played Mother 3, so I'm curious, what do you think it does better than Earthbound?
I don't get the relevance of this or why people insist on bringing this up. It's the "200 Best Games of All Time" list. Not the "200 Games that made me the Happiest in my Childhood of All Time."
Spyro was the most magical game of my childhood. It wouldn't get anywhere near a hypothetical "best games" list I made.
Retromelon
Member
I didn't say childhood; you did. What i did say, since you didn't seem to get it, is that games that have been legendary for so long lose their shine as the years go by because people get tired of hearing about them, and their memories of how amazing they were fade away
orthodoxy1095
Banned
And my point was that your memory of how amazing a game was when you were a kid, or whenever the hell you played it, is pretty irrelevant to this entire conversation.
Tizoc
Member
Got the PDF ver. to read on my iPad until the book ver. uh can be found for cheaper
I'm mainly skimming it atm, although I do feel that the image used for LL Larry could've been a little...tamer as I would like for my younger relatives to read the book
A silly nitpick for now but otherwise I hope to have more people be aware and read this at least to get an idea of how far the medium has come.
I'm mainly skimming it atm, although I do feel that the image used for LL Larry could've been a little...tamer as I would like for my younger relatives to read the book
A silly nitpick for now but otherwise I hope to have more people be aware and read this at least to get an idea of how far the medium has come.
TwiztidElf
Member
Better to be boring and correct than different and wrong.
Both Mario64 and OOT are bags of fun to play also.
Haven't been to the site, but based on the OP, the only qualifying criteria is that 'it matters'.
charlequin
Banned
who SAYS a thing like this
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I was chewing through a little more of the book today and I was actually surprised to see a Ys title in here. I guess I didn't know the series was that well regarded for some reason. I've only played Memories of Celceta, so I guess I should get around to Oath!
I mean sure. If HG101 put Custer's Revenge or Ride to Hell: Retribution on their list, yeah I'd say "That's wrong, you're stupid." But the list is populated by fantastic game. I don't think any of it can really be "wrong" given the quality of the games on the list.
It's an opinion, it can't really be wrong.
I mean sure. If HG101 put Custer's Revenge or Ride to Hell: Retribution on their list, yeah I'd say "That's wrong, you're stupid." But the list is populated by fantastic game. I don't think any of it can really be "wrong" given the quality of the games on the list.
cj_iwakura
Member
Oath really is the best. Celceta isn't bad, but easily the least good.
chronic_archaic
Member
My only real problems with this list are the inclusion of things like Sonic and All Stars Racing but not Mario Kart and Bulletstorm and not Call of Duty. I mean, neither are bad games but the ones I suggested are considered much more important for the genre.
cj_iwakura
Member
That's the thing, though. Important != best. Bulletstorm is far, FAR more entertaining than any CoD.
StrangeRoboMemory
Member
Observations and thoughts:
* I learned about quite a few games from here for the first time: Gimmick, Otogi 2, A Mind Forever Voyaging, Realms of Arkania 2. I don't think I've *ever* read a Top XXX list where I didn't already know every single game. Whatever people might think of the choices or the lack of status quo canon classics, it's refreshing and new.
I'd rather read this than the *CTRL+F Ocarina* method. It's been produced with thought and care...even if you disagree, I think you should check it out. So many top lists feel slapped together with an obligatory quality, and this isn't like that. It's not perfect, but that's almost part of the point.
* The fact that the "See Also" section usually just includes another title from the same series is a bit boring. Metal Slug under Metal Slug 3 doesn't feel like an exciting, alternate choice. This would require more work, obviously, but I think I would have enjoyed something more like Metal Slug 3 - Also Recommended in this series: Metal Slug - See Also Alien Hominid (or whatever).
Jet Set Radio Future, for instance, seems more like something to discuss in the write-up itself, instead of highlighting it as a "check this out, too."
* Some surprising omissions..these aren't omissions of the Ocarina/Mario 64 variety, but more stuff that I'm surprised wasn't included, given the general taste and clear preferences of the staff: Mischief Makers, Sengoku 3, Wonder Project J2, Monster Party, Magic of Scheherazade, Ranger X, Astro Boy: Omega Factor, among others.
* Not sure if this has been pointed out yet, but the Morrowind write-up has the text from Freedom Fighters, in my PDF at least.
* Will there ever be a way to play Panzer Dragoon Saga that isn't mind-numbingly expensive? Panzer Dragoon Saga HD would be an instant buy for me.
* What do I need to play Front Mission 5 on an American PS2? Do I put the disc in my computer, and then patch it with the fan translation, and then use Magicswamp or something like that?
* I've always loved the site's Geocities Plus quality, but I think HG 101 needs a stronger art designer for their books. This one's overall look isn't too bad, but it's a bit plain, and the chosen images are sometimes a bit awkward...a mix of box art, character designs, and ads that doesn't feel cohesive. Some have logos, some don't, some look really grungy and blurry (R-Type, Guardian Heroes).
The other books I've picked up from them, like the Castlevania and Sega books, are really marred by their art direction and the big splashes of background images. It makes the books almost unreadable. I wouldn't mind volunteering to help with this, actually.
* I learned about quite a few games from here for the first time: Gimmick, Otogi 2, A Mind Forever Voyaging, Realms of Arkania 2. I don't think I've *ever* read a Top XXX list where I didn't already know every single game. Whatever people might think of the choices or the lack of status quo canon classics, it's refreshing and new.
I'd rather read this than the *CTRL+F Ocarina* method. It's been produced with thought and care...even if you disagree, I think you should check it out. So many top lists feel slapped together with an obligatory quality, and this isn't like that. It's not perfect, but that's almost part of the point.
* The fact that the "See Also" section usually just includes another title from the same series is a bit boring. Metal Slug under Metal Slug 3 doesn't feel like an exciting, alternate choice. This would require more work, obviously, but I think I would have enjoyed something more like Metal Slug 3 - Also Recommended in this series: Metal Slug - See Also Alien Hominid (or whatever).
Jet Set Radio Future, for instance, seems more like something to discuss in the write-up itself, instead of highlighting it as a "check this out, too."
* Some surprising omissions..these aren't omissions of the Ocarina/Mario 64 variety, but more stuff that I'm surprised wasn't included, given the general taste and clear preferences of the staff: Mischief Makers, Sengoku 3, Wonder Project J2, Monster Party, Magic of Scheherazade, Ranger X, Astro Boy: Omega Factor, among others.
* Not sure if this has been pointed out yet, but the Morrowind write-up has the text from Freedom Fighters, in my PDF at least.
* Will there ever be a way to play Panzer Dragoon Saga that isn't mind-numbingly expensive? Panzer Dragoon Saga HD would be an instant buy for me.
* What do I need to play Front Mission 5 on an American PS2? Do I put the disc in my computer, and then patch it with the fan translation, and then use Magicswamp or something like that?
* I've always loved the site's Geocities Plus quality, but I think HG 101 needs a stronger art designer for their books. This one's overall look isn't too bad, but it's a bit plain, and the chosen images are sometimes a bit awkward...a mix of box art, character designs, and ads that doesn't feel cohesive. Some have logos, some don't, some look really grungy and blurry (R-Type, Guardian Heroes).
The other books I've picked up from them, like the Castlevania and Sega books, are really marred by their art direction and the big splashes of background images. It makes the books almost unreadable. I wouldn't mind volunteering to help with this, actually.
cj_iwakura
Member
Pretty much, that's how Namco X Capcom's works anyway.
chronic_archaic
Member
I'd disagree... but I respect your opinion
discoalucard
i am a butthurt babby that can only drool in wonder at shiney objects
Contra III was featured on the list up until like the last moment, even had a write-up and everything. I tried to pitch it as a midway point between the rigidness of Shattered Soldier and the looseness of Gunstar Heroes, but ultimately I couldn't rationalize having both it and Shattered Soldier.
I waffled back and forth on some of these. Like, we could've picked a Wipeout game to accompany F-Zero X instead of just the original F-Zero...but none of us liked Wipeout. Similarly, Alien Hominid would be better for a different recommendation than Metal Slug, but Metal Slug is still a much better game. I was thinking on including Alundra to accompany Link's Awakening instead of Link to the Past, since everyone already knows it, but I just decided the other way. It kinda depended on whether we could fit discussions about the main series into the body text.
Redownload it from wherever you grabbed it from, for the first day that text was messed up in the Kindle/PDF but it was fixed the day after.
I don't know if a "most important" list would be as "good" as people expecting that type of selection think it would be though. It would be most interesting for the selections that were not massively popular hits but still had a huge influence on developers like the WarioWare: Mega Microgame$, Inc. or kill.switch. If I were to make such a list it would probably have several games on it that have not even received a traditional release like VoidRaider (2002) or Pwn Adventure Z (2015) for what they accomplish and how they would effect the industry before I would include any Call of Duty besides the 360 version of Call of Duty 2. Other than those oddball choices it would end up being a list of the most ripped off games, which will be ones that many are already aware of even if they're not super passionate about playing video games.
sir_kevith
Member
Its definitely a "hardcore" list. That means some more niche titles aree gonna take precedent over and mainstream and that's good in my opinion. Ive only thumbed through but theres a lot of stuff in here thats new to me. A lot of it seems like stuff Id really enjoy like Dreamweb being analogous to Hotline Miami. That sticks out as something I need to check out.
So I bought the book from Amazon last week and the pages are all wavy and there is a pretty big crease in the middle of the book when its closed. Like, it always opens to one spot.
I thought it was how Amazon shipped it so I ordered a replacement and it was the same exact way.
Anyone else's book like that? Is it a defect in the printing?
I thought it was how Amazon shipped it so I ordered a replacement and it was the same exact way.
Anyone else's book like that? Is it a defect in the printing?
discoalucard
i am a butthurt babby that can only drool in wonder at shiney objects
How was it shipped to you? They come from different shipping facilities and some tend to pack them better than others. When I order for myself I usually get them in cardboard packaging and never had any problems, but others from them show up in padded envelopes and those aren't so good.
It's definitely a defect though, no way it should be like that.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
At the utter risk of sounding like a judgmental jackass, I had always put off playing Dust because I dismissed it as mere "furry" bait. But then I read the section about it in this book.
And it's good.
Damn good.
And it's good.
Damn good.
SmiteOfHand
Member
Finally got back around to reading through this after... dumb unrelated reasons for not.
It has suddenly dawned on me that I have played a shitload of Puzzle Bobble (Bust-a-move) but I've never sat down and given Bubble Bobble an honest shot. The write up doesn't go into much about the later releases beyond saying they did not capture the same success. Which says more to me that they are perfectly fine versions that didn't find a market, not that there is anything mechanically unsound about them.
Are there any opinions on the Definitive Bubble Bobble? For example looking at Bubble Bobble Part 2 it appears to be the same game with a much more appealing tileset. Likewise, the long tate-esque view in the DS game looks pretty rad.
https://youtu.be/btHA1ZAknsk?t=366
I have no problem going back to the arcade or NES version, but will opt for the more aesthetically pleasing version if nothing of value is lost.
It has suddenly dawned on me that I have played a shitload of Puzzle Bobble (Bust-a-move) but I've never sat down and given Bubble Bobble an honest shot. The write up doesn't go into much about the later releases beyond saying they did not capture the same success. Which says more to me that they are perfectly fine versions that didn't find a market, not that there is anything mechanically unsound about them.
Are there any opinions on the Definitive Bubble Bobble? For example looking at Bubble Bobble Part 2 it appears to be the same game with a much more appealing tileset. Likewise, the long tate-esque view in the DS game looks pretty rad.
https://youtu.be/btHA1ZAknsk?t=366
I have no problem going back to the arcade or NES version, but will opt for the more aesthetically pleasing version if nothing of value is lost.