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[soul creator]

I never said Kaine is a bad Democrat to have in a red state, only that he's a bad Democrat to place with your national standard bearer and that he has a right tilt given his current state's status.

Should Tester, Carper, or Bayh have been on the ticket as a face of the party?

one day I will finally get my Clinton/Baucus dream ticket

 

[whyamihere]

I never said Kaine is a bad Democrat to have in a red state, only that he's a bad Democrat to place with your national standard bearer and that he has a right tilt given his current state's status.

Should Tester, Carper, or Bayh have been on the ticket as a face of the party?

Well, Kaine is in an interesting case because he was always considered too left-wing for Virginia, even as a Dixiecrat, and then Virginia went through a fairly unbelievable transformation from his first statewide election until now. My point was that he's clearly not Joe Lieberman, and unless you have DW Nominate scores for the 114th (I have no seen any yet for the Senate?), he's not the 7th most conservative member of the caucus. He was the 18th most conservative member from 2013-2014 and was in a much more center (for Dems) block of Senators. Also, the link you posted was a pretty terrible hit job on someone who is, by all accounts, a good person and much more to the left of his state for his entire career. And probably still so today?

Also, I don't know what you mean near the end. Virginia isn't a red state?

But he's further to the left of Tester, Carper, and Bayh. And Joe Biden was always fairly centrist, but he was a major face of the party for the past 8 years. And also, there are probably things we can learn from Tester that we absolutely need to use in 2018-2020.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Certainly the campaign made key mistakes. Certainly in retrospect her unlikeability was something that stopped her winning.

But none of that suggests that Bernie would have fared better. Her primary campaign was much better run than his, for example.

Trump was somewhat of a counterpick against Hillary.

None of the attacks he used against her would've worked against Sanders, he wouldn't have had any ammunition to sway away debate from the issues and Sanders would've crushed him on the issues. Trump didn't know shit.

Trumps only chance was the anti-establishment narrative and that wouldn't have worked against Sanders.

I am very sure that Sanders would have won.

 

[reckless]

Trump was somewhat of a counterpick against Hillary.

None of the attacks he used against her would've worked against Sanders, he wouldn't have had any ammunition to sway away debate from the issues and Sanders would've crushed him on the issues. Trump didn't know shit.

Trumps only chance was the anti-establishment narrative and that wouldn't have worked against Sanders.

I am very sure that Sanders would have won.

The election showed knowing about issues didn't matter.

Trump would have talked about how Sanders is going to raise taxes (which alone would kill his chances), trying to get government takeover of healthcare and about how he's a socialist.

 

[noshten]

But your highlighted text describing Clinton is factually wrong.

This is the problem. The far right has painted Clinton in a false light for so long that much of the middle and even much of the left weren't even willing to give her a legitimate chance. Sure, most said they would because saying otherwise makes you sound like a petulant fucking but come election day much of the U.S. population proved that's exactly what they are: petulant children wanting someone to pander to their random beliefs to make them feel like all the problems are someone else's fault and this person is going to take care of everything for them.

I voted for Clinton because I've dropped shits that knew more about good economic policy than Bernard Sanders, at least if his platform was to be believed. Maybe it was all some big ruse and the real meat would show up later but what he ran on wasn't just unrealistic, it was inherently flawed to where actually implementing it would have driven us off a (slightly) different economic cliff than the one Trump is steering us towards currently.

Isolationism is a failed ideology. Anti-NATO, Anti-NAFTA sentiment is exactly that.

Pointing the finger at inanimate objects, be they regulations or corporations, is not appropriately identifying the economic stagnation plaguing the lower and middle class. Wealth individuals are walking away with more and more of the pie every year but instead of addressing that correctly Sanders tilts at the corporate windmill. He's a policy lightweight, just not a hateful one, so he'd be far better than Trump but Clinton was actually someone capable of doing the job correctly.

Clinton was not someone capable of doing the job correctly because she could never be elected - there isn't a single Republican GE candidate in the last 20 years that would have lost the election to Clinton. She lost to Trump - she is un-electable and would have lost by an even bigger margin if she was facing someone like Romney, McCain or GWB. That mainly stems from Republicans voting for whatever their party tells them even if it's a Trump or GWB. While Dems stumble through elections and are only rescued by charismatic candidates like Obama and
Bill.

 

[MechanicalWall]

I actually did vote for Bernie in the primary, but after he got obliterated in New York is started regretting it. He became one of the sorest losers in existence, running a scorched earth campaign against Hillary, and basically lied to his base about his chances of victory. Bullshit sources like TYT helped him continue this shit, constantly telling their viewers 'there was a chance' when there wasn't.

Oh, and to the people talking about how Hillary only won 'cause of red Southern states: Fuck off. She beat Bernie in Massachusetts, New York, California, and other extremely blue states. She kicked his ass in swing states like Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada. And I notice that no one cares that Bernie also got a decent chunk of delegates from states like Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah.

 

[Abelard]

Clinton was not someone capable of doing the job correctly because she could never be elected - there isn't a single Republican GE candidate in the last 20 years that would have lost the election to Clinton. She lost to Trump - she is un-electable and would have lost by an even bigger margin if she was facing someone like Romney, McCain or GWB. That mainly stems from Republians voting for whatever their party tells them even if it's a Trump or GWB. While Dems stumble through elections and are only rescued by charismatic candidates like Obama and Clinton.

"Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line" so the saying goes. Its kind of ironic that Hillary is paraded as someone who would be a "pragmatic" president, yet pragmatically she couldn't even get elected. I knew from the primaries when she was barely beating Trump by anywhere from 1-3 points in a Head2Head whereas Bernie would be crushing Trump by as high as 15 points. Any potential skeletons would have not mattered as much because like Teflon Don, Sanders had the outsider appeal which Clinton lacked, which made her 20 times more susceptible to even the smallest of scandals. That's why I think the "wait for the GOP smear campaign" narrative doesn't work.

 

[jack_package_200]

I actually did vote for Bernie in the primary, but after he got obliterated in New York is started regretting it. He became one of the sorest losers in existence, running a scorched earth campaign against Hillary, and basically lied to his base about his chances of victory. Bullshit sources like TYT helped him continue this shit, constantly telling their viewers 'there was a chance' when there wasn't.

Oh, and to the people talking about how Hillary only won 'cause of red Southern states: Fuck off. She beat Bernie in Massachusetts, New York, California, and other extremely blue states. She kicked his ass in swing states like Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada. And I notice that no one cares that Bernie also got a decent chunk of delegates from states like Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah

The thing about that line of whining from Bernie and his supporters is that it became a dogwhistle. "Red states shouldn't matter"

You know who participates in democratic primaries in the southern red states: Minorities, specifically African Americans. Should they not have a voice in deciding the democratic presidential candidate?

 

[ErasureAcer]

All Clinton had to do was put Bernie on the ticket and she'd be Prez.

 

[Maledict]

All Clinton had to do was put Bernie on the ticket and she'd be Prez.

Given where she lost the voters who turned from Obama to Trump I don't see that at all. Bernies crowd wasn't middle aged to older white working class voters.

It wasn't spurned Bernie fans who cost Clinton Winsconsin, or the pan-handle in Florida.

 

[xxracerxx]

All Clinton had to do was put Bernie on the ticket and she'd be Prez.

This is so not guaranteed.

 

[Steel]

This is so not guaranteed.

I could see it being true, considering.

 

[xxracerxx]

I could see it being true, considering.

Considering what?

 

[Steel]

Considering what?

People not turning out in a few key states is what led Hillary to lose, sour BoBers would be more likely to fall in line with a unity ticket.

 

[MechanicalWall]

The thing about that line of whining from Bernie and his supporters is that it became a dogwhistle. "Red states shouldn't matter"

You know who participates in democratic primaries in the southern red states: Minorities, specifically African Americans. Should they not have a voice in deciding the democratic presidential candidate?

That's true. You know what the difference between the red states Hillary won (e.g. Mississippi, Lousiana, Alabama) and the ones Bernie won (e.g. Oklahoma, Montana, Kansas) is? The ones Bernie won are all more than 85 percent white or more, while the ones Hillary won are some of the blackest states in the country. Yet somehow, they dismiss Hillary's red state wins but never do the same for Sanders.

 

[lastflowers]

I actually did vote for Bernie in the primary, but after he got obliterated in New York is started regretting it. He became one of the sorest losers in existence, running a scorched earth campaign against Hillary, and basically lied to his base about his chances of victory. Bullshit sources like TYT helped him continue this shit, constantly telling their viewers 'there was a chance' when there wasn't.

Oh, and to the people talking about how Hillary only won 'cause of red Southern states: Fuck off. She beat Bernie in Massachusetts, New York, California, and other extremely blue states. She kicked his ass in swing states like Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, and Nevada. And I notice that no one cares that Bernie also got a decent chunk of delegates from states like Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah.

I remember a few talking about this, but if this is what you focus in on then there needs to be a pretty clear blood-letting on any candidate that ever ran for national office.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

The thing about that line of whining from Bernie and his supporters is that it became a dogwhistle. "Red states shouldn't matter"

You know who participates in democratic primaries in the southern red states: Minorities, specifically African Americans. Should they not have a voice in deciding the democratic presidential candidate?

Yeah even though I'm arguing for the other team here this shit's gross. The presidential vote is like the only meaningful ballot these people get to cast, and it's the only thing they can really do to shield themselves from Republican shit.

Given where she lost the voters who turned from Obama to Trump I don't see that at all. Bernies crowd wasn't middle aged to older white working class voters.

It wasn't spurned Bernie fans who cost Clinton Winsconsin, or the pan-handle in Florida.

You might be right, since VP effect is hard to measure, but in terms of sending the right message it would be beneficial. Bernie did really well the in areas of Wisconsin in the remnants of the union vote in the west where Feingold outperformed her. He also might put off the sorts of suburban Republican women she was trying to peel off. It would probably depend on a few things.

 

[Gattsu25]

Hillary reached out to the black voter. Bernie decided not to campaign to them and avoided the south almost entirely.

 

[MechanicalWall]

I remember a few talking about this, but if this is what you focus in on then there needs to be a pretty clear blood-letting on any candidate that ever ran for national office.

It is an important point to address. How he handled his campaign in May and June exposed him as almost a conman: he kept requesting donations at his rallies despite the fact his campaign was dead in the water, and he knew it, I knew it, anyone who can figure out how numbers work knew it.

 

[plagiarize]

Hillary reached out to the black voter. Bernie decided not to campaign to them and avoided the south almost entirely.

Yup. Just because Clinton ran a poor election campaign, let's never forget that Bernie ran a poor primary campaign.

 

[Abelard]

It is an important point to address. How he handled his campaign in May and June exposed him as almost a conman: he kept requesting donations at his rallies despite the fact his campaign was dead in the water, and he knew it, I knew it, anyone who can figure out how numbers work knew it.

Okay if you think that about Bernie, what exactly did you think about Clinton in 2008? Because that one was much nastier and bloodied in comparison.

Hillary reached out to the black voter. Bernie decided not to campaign to them and avoided the south almost entirely.

This is only partly true- I hate having to clarify this time and time again but Bernie won the youth across the board regardless of race.

 

[lastflowers]

It is an important point to address. How he handled his campaign in May and June exposed him as almost a conman: he kept requesting donations at his rallies despite the fact his campaign was dead in the water, and he knew it, I knew it, anyone who can figure out how numbers work knew it.

alrighty then. If this is your take away from the last election, feel free to have it.

 

[plagiarize]

Okay if you think that about Bernie, what exactly did you think about Clinton in 2008?

I didn't like how she ran her campaign in 2008 and was glad Obama won. Clinton started winning me over with how hard she worked to get her voters to all move over to Obama come the general.

Bernie gave it a good go, but he didn't do as much or work as hard as Clinton did for Obama to turn his voters to her.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Okay if you think that about Bernie, what exactly did you think about Clinton in 2008? Because that one was much nastier and bloodied in comparison.

2008 was way, way closer than 2016. They aren't even comparable

Spoiler

Hillary won the popular vote in 2008, too

 

[ExVicis]

If the point of having Tim Kaine is that it used to be that you could win a reddish-purple state by having a right-leaning centrist and that having one there helped push the state blue, what's the point of having him still be around or putting him on the presidential ticket? No one really cares about him, he's appealing to like 4% of the population, he's anti-public sector unions and literally days before being picked was blabbering on about how TPP was good. Maybe you think it is good, but it doesn't help Hillary's case to pick a running mate. There are seven Democrats to his right in the Senate, and aside from Warner or Carper all of them are from much redder states.

Say "I like him because he's centrist" if you like he becomes he's centrist, but he's not some secret great progressive.

I think reading this thread has taught me something I think much like what someone said earlier and it's that Democrats try to be what you want, Republicans tell you what you want.

There's a lot of talk about appealing to centrists and talk about too radical/ideas the country isn't ready for from the Democrats side. And for all the efforts to be moderate that strategy seems to have fallen flat. I'm not sure what lesson to come away from with that except that winning voters with Republican-lite won't work when there's actual Republicans they can vote for.

 

[MechanicalWall]

Okay if you think that about Bernie, what exactly did you think about Clinton in 2008?

She was bullshitting too, and made some pretty distasteful remarks in the process. That said, at least when it was all over she gave Obama heartfelt praise and endorsement. Bernie did do a lot of rallies for Hillary in the general, it's true, but for every piece of praise he gave her, he also gave a backhanded insult; I remember him actually using the 'lesser of two evils' BS on one of the late night shows, I can't remember which.

 

[MechanicalWall]

alrighty then. If this is your take away from the last election, feel free to have it.

I can take more than one thing away from the election.

 

[Unison]

It is an important point to address. How he handled his campaign in May and June exposed him as almost a conman: he kept requesting donations at his rallies despite the fact his campaign was dead in the water, and he knew it, I knew it, anyone who can figure out how numbers work knew it.

Yeah, I think the last two months of the Bernie campaign hurt Hillary's chances at being elected as much as anyone.

The Democratic party was infighting through the convention and beyond.

Part of this is the perception that Hillary is unlikeable, for sure, but Bernie's abhorrent last few months of his campaign did a lot to solidify my primary vote.

Obviously he was acting to push Hillary to the left, but I can't help but feel that he increased Democratic voter apathy and cost us her getting elected at all.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Hillary reached out to the black voter. Bernie decided not to campaign to them and avoided the south almost entirely.

This was a big reason for me. I always liked Bernie until this stuff (still prefer Clinton's policy chops and thought-out proposals), but when he started sounding like a Republican with the dog whistles, I got mad at him.

I'm a Mississippian. You're almost entirely rejecting black voices if you ignore MS Democrats (if you did a Venn diagram of black Mississippians and MS Democrats, it's hard to see the difference. White people here mostly suck).

 

[Mr. RPG]

Wow.

After reading this thread, I am very scared for the future.

HillaryGAF really wants to lose again. They haven't gotten over the primary. They're still upset about Bernie.

Bernie is not your enemy. His supporters are not your enemy.

The infighting needs to stop or we will never win in 2020.

 

[Clipjoint]

The high number of third party this year would suggest that it was at least a factor. Maybe not the decisive factor (w/ 100+ million votes, there's 100+ million factors, really), but I'm sure it played a role. Nonsensical for either wing (Hillary/Bernie) to brush it off. You can have an arrogant strategy, miscalculate the Midwestern vote AND not consolidate Bernie's support. Not mutually exclusive.

If anything, it gives the Bernie folks more leverage.

There's an assumption that 3rd party votes = Bernie voters going for Jill Stein, when in reality the bulk of 3rd party votes went to Gary Johnson.

You're right there's a million factors, but Clinton lost the election because she lost Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. In every post-mortem, the stories talk about local teams begging for help and getting no support from Hillary's Brooklyn office.

You'd think she would have recognized that she had a problem in Michigan when Bernie outperformed the polls and beat her in that state, but her team was too arrogant to admit they had a problem connecting with working class white voters. Trump spent much more time than she did campaigning on the ground, and it helped him get over the hump.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Wow.

After reading this thread, I am very scared for the future.

HillaryGAF really wants to lose again. They haven't gotten over the primary. They're still upset about Bernie.

Bernie is not your enemy. His supporters are not your enemy.

The infighting needs to stop or we will never win 2020.

This thread is literally about the Primary and their thoughts... What the hell is this?

 

[MechanicalWall]

Wow.

After reading this thread, I am very scared for the future.

HillaryGAF really wants to lose again. They haven't gotten over the primary. They're still upset about Bernie.

Bernie is not your enemy. His supporters are not your enemy.

The infighting needs to stop or we will never win 2020.

His online supporters did a great job helping Trumplets spread their propoganda across the Internet.

 

[ExVicis]

Wow.

After reading this thread, I am very scared for the future.

HillaryGAF really wants to lose again. They haven't gotten over the primary. They're still upset about Bernie.

Bernie is not your enemy. His supporters are not your enemy.

The infighting needs to stop or we will never win 2020.

Don't be scared of that, be scared of people shrinking back in 2018 and going back to "Well I wanna change things and get rid of the Republican/Trump Administration but I don't want to be TOO radical."

I could understand back in the primaries voting for Hillary as the safe bet (even though I argued that she was anything but) however if in the following years we're making compromising safe votes still during election season I will be very very scared of the future.

You can't move society by small steps forward to be better anymore if we're taking giant leaps backward.

 

[Mr. RPG]

This thread is literally about the Primary and their thoughts... What the hell is this?

I've seen so many posts and threads about how Bernie is the reason why Hillary lost.

HillaryGAF can't get over that Bernie ran against her in the primary. They blame Hillary's loss on him.

Everyone needs to stop blaming Bernie and his supporters for this loss. Instead of guilt tripping them for voting for a third party candidate we need to be working with them to vote for Democrats in future elections.

We need to move on. Seriously. Infighting has got to stop or we'll never win!

His online supporters did a great job helping Trumplets spread their propoganda across the Internet.

I voted for Bernie in the primary.

But you know what? I voted for Hillary on election day and I was very proud I did. I really wanted her to win.

We didn't want Trump to win. Please stop spreading these lies.

I'll say it again. The hate against Bernie and his supporters needs to stop or we will lose every election from now on. Bernie's supporters are not going away. We need their votes.

 

[damisa]

I've seen so many posts and threads about how Bernie is the reason why Hillary lost.

HillaryGAF can't get over that Bernie ran against her in the primary. They blame Hillary's loss on him.

Everyone needs to stop blaming Bernie and his supporters for this loss. Instead of guilt tripping them for voting for a third party candidate we need to be working with them to vote for Democrats in future elections.

We need to move on. Seriously. Infighting has got to stop or we'll never win!

You were one of the worst Bernie posters around during the primary days. You have no right to call out other people on anything.

 

[xxracerxx]

We didn't want Trump to win. Please stop spreading these lies.

Dude, you can't speak for all Sanders' supporters.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Don't be scared of that, be scared of people shrinking back in 2018 and going back to "Well I wanna change things and get rid of the Republican/Trump Administration but I don't want to be TOO radical."

I could understand back in the primaries voting for Hillary as the safe bet (even though I argued that she was anything but) however if in the following years we're making compromising safe votes still during election season I will be very very scared of the future.

You can't move society by small steps forward to be better anymore if we're taking giant leaps backward.

Eh, depends on where you live. Go ham if you're in a blue state, but I'll take a centrist here in MS over a Republican any day (since a far left candidate will never win anything here).

Come on, Jim Hood. Run for governor!

 

[ExVicis]

Dude, you can't speak for all Sanders' supporters.

Well I know I voted for Hillary and I had put my vote in for Sanders during the primaries. So there's two.

 

[MechanicalWall]

I voted for Bernie in the primary.

But you know what? I voted for Hillary on election day and I was very proud I did. I really wanted her to win.

We didn't want Trump to win. Please stop spreading these lies.

Yay, great for you. I don't care. Look at Reddit as one example: r/politics, a sub with millions of subscribers and was pro-Bernie during the primary, was literally upvoting anti-Hillary Breitbart articles to the top of the site.

 

[Mr. RPG]

You were one of the worst Bernie posters around during the primary days. You have no right to call out other people on anything.

This is why I stopped posting. No one cared about having any actual discussion. It was just blaming the other side for everything.

This is why we lost. No one cared about Bernie's supporters. So many people either simply assumed they would fall in line or said that they didn't matter.

Hillary actually tried to reach out to Bernie supporters and I am very happy that she did. I really wish her most fervent supporters acted more like her.

 

[royalan]

I will say I had never seen so many liberals sharing Breitbart articles until this election.

 

[Aaronology]

I've seen so many posts and threads about how Bernie is the reason why Hillary lost.

You'll find a lost of posts saying a lot of things. Feel free to actually cite the ones you find objectionable. As for threads, I'd appreciate it if you linked them. I do not recall "Bernie cost us the election" being a strong narrative on this forum after the 8th, though it's certainly an opinion some people (understandably) hold to varying degrees.

You're welcome to correct me on this point.

HillaryGAF can't get over that Bernie ran against her in the primary. They blame Hillary's loss on him.

Everyone needs to stop blaming Bernie and his supporters for this loss. Instead of guilt tripping them for voting for a third party candidate we need to be working with them to vote for Democrats in future elections.

We need to move on. Seriously. Infighting has got to stop or we'll never win!

The second someone starts a post using the term "HillaryGAF" instead of addressing individual posters with individuals opinions is when I step back and begin questioning whether to be dismissive. Odd, you imploring this forum to stop infighting immediately after exhibiting the behavior that contributes to it.

 

[UFO]

Isolationism is a failed ideology. Anti-NATO, Anti-NAFTA sentiment is exactly that.

Anti-NATO and NAFTA isn't even the close to being isolationism ideology. Both of those are examples of the US holding the rest of the world on our back at the expense of our citizens. Support of NATO considers to drop from other countries while the US foots the majority of the bill, and NAFTA hurts US workers who can't compete with cheaper labor costs in developing countries.

I hear a lot of comparisons with the Chinese after they adopted isolationism and fell behind the rest of the world, but that's not what anyone is asking for. We're not trying to close off our exports at all, we just want to slow down our imports and keep our money out of foreign affairs.

 

[Drek]

Clinton was not someone capable of doing the job correctly because she could never be elected - there isn't a single Republican GE candidate in the last 20 years that would have lost the election to Clinton. She lost to Trump - she is un-electable and would have lost by an even bigger margin if she was facing someone like Romney, McCain or GWB. That mainly stems from Republicans voting for whatever their party tells them even if it's a Trump or GWB. While Dems stumble through elections and are only rescued by charismatic candidates like Obama and
Bill.

So straight into the "electability is a valid qualification for POTUS" argument to negate Clinton's real qualifications, even though Trump's electability was abysmally low himself (his horrible out of the gate poll numbers back that up) and some of our best Presidents have been people who got the office through succession, not direct election.

Your rhetoric is what has the GOP currently on the Trump Train, FYI. A candidate is judged entirely by if they won or lost. Losers had no positive merits, winners were inherently superb.

But sure, lets just steer into this logic death spiral and see how it all comes out.

 

[j_k_redtail]

I'm a registered independent so I couldn't vote in my state. I supported Clinton because she had a much better grasp of policy issues.

 

[Brinbe]

Easy, she would have been a fucking incredible President. The total opposite of Trump in that she works for the electorate and is a life-long public servant!

She's a real/serious pol, a fucking policy wonk with a incredibly solid grasp of the issues that actually listened to her constituents and would go to lengths to implement and make laws that reflected what those people want/need. And that's normal people, not just bankers or whatever boogeymen people castigated her with.

And although I absolutely loved Sanders' message and dogged idealism, I thought he would have been an absolutely awful President.

 

[AtomskEater]

This is why I stopped posting. No one cared about having any actual discussion. It was just blaming the other side for everything.

This is why we lost. No one cared about Bernie's supporters. So many people either simply assumed they would fall in line or said that they didn't matter.

Hillary actually tried to reach out to Bernie supporters and I am very happy that she did. I really wish her most fervent supporters acted more like her.

Is this irony?

 

[sangreal]

We're not trying to close off our exports at all, we just want to slow down our imports and keep our money out of foreign affairs.

and you think the countries you want to export to are going to go along with this?

 

[entremet]

I still think Bernie would've clobbered Trump.

It's a match up in Bernie's favor. Clinton simply had too much perceived baggage and a two decade smear campaign by the GOP didn't help.

I voted for Hillary and thought she would've been a better President than Bernie. I genuinely like Hillary as well. But there was a palpable excitement about Bernie.