True Savior
Member
But most of that had already happened with SW (the prequels).
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Honest Trailer: The Force Awakens
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But most of that had already happened with SW (the prequels).
So tired of this. Right, because he wasn't totally evil and had feelings, right? Because we should expect much less and more shallow characteristics from our villains..
Kylo Ren is one of the best things to come out of this film.
gutter_trash
Banned
I will take TFA's ''lack of originality'' any day over the Prequels, LOL
I'm surprised people are willing to watch a movie they don't enjoy four times in theaters.
Even for movies I love, twice in theaters is usually the limit.
CD'S BAR
Member
Well at least for me, the first obviously I didn't know what to expect. The other 3 times were more social gatherings. And the movie isn't so bad you can't sit through it.
Triggerhappytel
Member
It's really not that funny anyway, and very brief.
There's so many small things about Rey that inexplicably show her as unnaturally good at stuff. You might not have even noticed all of them,
.
Like for one. The Millennium Falcon is a very hard ship to fly. We've never seen it flown before in a combat situation without a co-pilot helping out. Both Han and Lando needed one. And the co-pilot wasn't just there for looks. They were always fiddling with things and looking just as busy as the pilot. The only time we saw it in a fight without a co-pilot was in ANH when Han and Luke were manning the guns and Chewie was flying solo. But even then, Leia was helping out in the cockpit and they were taking shots like crazy because of that. So we can assume the co-pilot is a very important and vital role in the falcon.
Now in TFA, Rey can fly the falcon without a co-pilot in a fight and win it. And I don't remember if they took any hits at all. And she's doing maneuvers that we've never seen the falcon do before. Closest thing was Lando with the help of a co-pilot flying in the Death Star II. And I would think there's probably a way more room flying inside the death star than in a star destroyer.
So you might think that maybe the falcon has been upgraded since last we saw. Maybe they installed a navigating computer so there's no need for a co-pilot anymore. Except that when Han Solo pilots the ship again, the person who's owned the ship the longest and we've seen fly it the most, he needs Rey to help co-pilot. And she seems to know the ship even better than he does.
All this in a movie that right in the beginning tells you how important pilots are and that it is a skill that few people have. So we are to belive Rey who is a poor orphan barely able to even feed herself and has no ambition to leave the planet is one of the most exceptional star fighter pilots in any of the movies. And all of this happens before her whole force awakening.
but your brain did
Like for one. The Millennium Falcon is a very hard ship to fly. We've never seen it flown before in a combat situation without a co-pilot helping out. Both Han and Lando needed one. And the co-pilot wasn't just there for looks. They were always fiddling with things and looking just as busy as the pilot. The only time we saw it in a fight without a co-pilot was in ANH when Han and Luke were manning the guns and Chewie was flying solo. But even then, Leia was helping out in the cockpit and they were taking shots like crazy because of that. So we can assume the co-pilot is a very important and vital role in the falcon.
Now in TFA, Rey can fly the falcon without a co-pilot in a fight and win it. And I don't remember if they took any hits at all. And she's doing maneuvers that we've never seen the falcon do before. Closest thing was Lando with the help of a co-pilot flying in the Death Star II. And I would think there's probably a way more room flying inside the death star than in a star destroyer.
So you might think that maybe the falcon has been upgraded since last we saw. Maybe they installed a navigating computer so there's no need for a co-pilot anymore. Except that when Han Solo pilots the ship again, the person who's owned the ship the longest and we've seen fly it the most, he needs Rey to help co-pilot. And she seems to know the ship even better than he does.
All this in a movie that right in the beginning tells you how important pilots are and that it is a skill that few people have. So we are to belive Rey who is a poor orphan barely able to even feed herself and has no ambition to leave the planet is one of the most exceptional star fighter pilots in any of the movies. And all of this happens before her whole force awakening.
QuantumZebra
Member
"I've seen this movie three times and I can definitely say it is a complete disgrace"
- Actual Poster in this Thread
you cant make this shit up
BrokenIcarus
Member
I see what you did there.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Nah, he reminded me of prequel Anakin in that angsty way. In my head I've characterized him as an angsty, angry CVS cashier who had had enough of counting change and decided to make a lousy rip off of Vader's costume from Party City and order a cheap voice changer from Amazon.
His only saving grace in Episode 8 could be some sorta face scar that he got from the fight with Rey.
The internet gives everyone a voice but it's too bad a lot of people have no idea what they're talking about and certainly aren't capable of expressing it.
I love good film discussion and criticism, but a lot of stuff I see online has the depth and breadth of a 14 year old complaining about his mac and cheese. Stuff like CinemaSins just fuels that. I know they want to be funny, but a lot of people look at that and say "those are great points" and take the whole notion of tongue-in-cheek banter the wrong way. Suddenly that approach becomes the norm, people will link to a video and say "See!? See my point is validated!" Throw in that sense of anger and frustration and inability to be calm and rationale that is the lifeblood of the internet and it makes me worry that having good online conversation is reaching a pitiful end.
I saw it big-time with Avatar and the 'It's just Dances with Wolves!" line people threw out there as though that's actually some sort of justifiable film critique. But it's not, is it? It's an observation of a film's similarities to another film, certainly, but you can't really judge or determine what is good or bad by simple comparative analysis, especially in an art form that recycles material as much as film does (and if you want to go back further, literature and the stories therein). If your base argument is "Well thing A is like thing B" then that's scraping the bottom of the barrel of critical thought. You're not backing up anything with that.
Nitpicking is equally as lazy criticism. CinemaSins's intent is to use it for humor, but the audience is taking it and turning it into fuel. I had plenty of problems with The Force Awakens (much like Avatar) but I ultimately enjoyed the film quite a bit.
Outside of Nien Nunb pointing out the Death Star 2 shields were operational, he didn't do much other than complain.
Then again, Lando was the ship's previous owner.
CD'S BAR
Member
Sometimes when you want something to be really good, you can't accept that it isn't on the first go. So you engage with it a couple more times, hoping for a change of heart. Alas...
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
No its not. Seriously only superficial people can make this comment with a straight face.
The similarities are obvious and intended, but every similarity is profoundly different (I would even say straight up opposite) than in ANH.
The First Order is completely different from the Empire, it's more like a paramilitary group terrorising the borders of the galaxy, similar to ISIS, while the Empire was a big established government, like the URSS.
Rey wants to stay in her planet and was fixated with the past. Luke wanted to leave his planet and was fixated in the future.
And we can go on and on explaining why the movies are not similar, but the most important thing is that this movie totally gets what Star Wars is about, it makes you feel in an infinite universe again (something the prequels failed to do miserably), and overall it's a really great movie, not as great as ANH, but up there with ESB.
CD'S BAR
Member
Haha I never wrote that post you quoted.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I'm pretty sure that described what happened with the TPM, except some of those crazies saw it a hell of a lot more than 3 times.
Whoops.
Escape Goat
Member
Han Solong
Lolz
Lolz
How could I forget? I remember seeing a Man of Steel thread nearly every week for about a year.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Do you always blame others for pointing out things that you failed to see?
TFA is decent enough for fans, but it's a really mediocre movie, more set up around a bunch of 'neat ideas' by which I mean producer ideas (big fucking spider), than around any story that has any sort of interest to a non-fan or someone who has seen more than ten movies in his / her life. Rey being a 'mary sue' is pointed out because she is a protagonist without any real conflict, which would be a death sentence for any other movie. Her side character, Finn, has actually more story to him than she does (a situation I have only seen occur in Twilight), and Kylo Ren is about as interesting as a wet blanket. He only derives meaning from Darth Vader, a character that has literally been dead since I was born.
And yes, I just completely ignored the prequels because I've pretty much ignored them since they were even announced. They're pointless movies and they exist as Lucas's personal bonus round. The argument that TFA needed to erase the prequels therefore holds little weight to me, since they were clearly never really related (or not in any good way at least). The Pod Racer game was neat though. Hard as balls (more like broken), but at the same time strangely appealing on that angle.
But in general this idea of defending your position by saying that every other opinion must be wrong is just really childish.
I know there's plenty of bad critics out there who add nothing to a discussion, but that doesn't mean something is suddenly great or that the boxoffice equates to quality or that the RT meter is a good indicator of actual critical opinions after the initial feelings have settled.
as for the actual video, I liked that they appreciated the meta-fact that most of these channels kind of owe their existence to bad movies like the prequels. Other than that kind of 'eh', but then this isn't a YA movie that's an easier target.
plasmawave
Banned
MaRey Sue lol.
It's funny cuz it's true.
It's funny cuz it's true.
You've seen plenty of movies with that situation.
For example, who is the protagonist of The Dark Knight? Batman. Who gets the bulk of the character development and conflict? Harvey Dent.
It's like poetry, it rhymes
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Everyone isn't gonna like what you like, or not like it as much. It's fine. Everything is fine.
Actually I saw the movie in theaters with a ton of non-fans who liked it even more than casual and HC fans (a few HC fans I saw it with did not enjoy it). This movie has a huge appeal to everyone, which is the way it was designed.
It stands absolutely fine on its own.
I'm not sure why you think she doesn't have any conflict? Her conflict is not knowing who she is and never knowing her family/anyone close to her, meeting a group of people who fill that void, then clashing with Kylo as he single handedly murders one of those people. All while idolizing the resistance and wanting to help them succeed/overcome its opposition (lighting up when she meets Finn who she thinks is a resistance fighter). Not to mention her battle with the first order on multiple occasions when she witnesses them actively destroying everything in their path while trying to recover BB-8. There's actually a LOT of conflict here..
And that's all before she/we even know who she is, which has clearly been set up for the next two films. I thought this stuff was obvious?
Darth Vader derives his meaning from the Sith, generations of dark side users. What's your point? Because he idolizes what Vader stood for he's no longer interesting? How can anyone honestly believe Kylo isn't an interesting/intriguing character? His struggle captures the temptation from both sides, which is the theme of the SW universe (good vs evil).
Vampirolol
Member
40% of TFA criticism
"I expected..."
30% of TFA criticism
"It's a remake of ANH"
20% of TFA criticism
"I wanted Kylo Ren to be [Vegeta/Shadow the Hedgeog/Joker]"
10% of TFA criticism (actually true)
"Fucking Starkiller? Seriously?"
"I expected..."
30% of TFA criticism
"It's a remake of ANH"
20% of TFA criticism
"I wanted Kylo Ren to be [Vegeta/Shadow the Hedgeog/Joker]"
10% of TFA criticism (actually true)
"Fucking Starkiller? Seriously?"
Great post.
I'm really surprised how swift the anti-TFA circlejerk took over. It's like someone flipped a switch and suddenly everyone wanted to be a oh-so-witty contrarian.
The movie lacked originality, but hit pretty much every other note it was trying to. The more I watch it, the more I like it. Within a few years, it'll probably sit right underneath the OT in a lot of people's minds. Perhaps a smidge above RotJ for some (including myself).
The movie lacked originality, but hit pretty much every other note it was trying to. The more I watch it, the more I like it. Within a few years, it'll probably sit right underneath the OT in a lot of people's minds. Perhaps a smidge above RotJ for some (including myself).
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Thanks. I didn't realize. I just thought everyone hated everything. That's the oppressive nature of internet criticism these days. Forgive me.
UnforgivenTwin
Member
I completely agree with this. Is it a perfect film? No,of course not.But for me,it was enjoyable,fun and made me excited for Star Wars again. That's more than I can say in regards to the prequels.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Meh, loved the movie.
Already seen it twice since I received the blu ray on Saturday.
Already seen it twice since I received the blu ray on Saturday.
I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt with some of these arguments and see things from other points of view, but this is both baffling and simply wrong.
1) That's not what a Mary Sue is, but it's a good illustration of why the term tossed in here is so exasperating.
2) She has conflict. The major thrust of the story is Rey having to decide whether to take the safe and familiar path (her life in limbo on Jakku) or to help/join the Resistance and ultimately, embrace her use of the Force. That conflict is resolved when she takes the saber at the end of the film.
That's not too far from the mark, actually. We had a lot of great discussion back when TFA was released about it flaws, before the Mary Sue horseshit swallowed a lot of the subsequent discourse.
UnforgivenTwin
Member
Just out of curiosity,when did the whole Mary Sue thing start popping up?
UnforgivenTwin
Member
Honestly, truthfully,frankly,you'll be much happier if you stay off the Internet from time to time. Believe me. Believe me.
Mary Sue was around almost immediately after release.
UnforgivenTwin
Member
I never noticed it until around after second time I saw it. Thanks.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
I'm fine with criticism (been on the internet a long time with generally unpopular opinions myself, you get used to it. Especially these days where criticism has devolved into nitpicking, backseat driving, noisy, echo chambers) but to sit here and read people go in on the acting of all things? After the prequels? You're gonna go after the acting, when even Harrison Ford actually showed up? And you have these high energy, charismatic kids doing a great job? No, that I cannot abide, as a matter of principle... I'm obliged to post some words. Whatever their worth.
I would say TV Tropes had a lot to do with phrases like that and McGuffin becoming very common in discussion. Not that they didn't exist before but people read TV Tropes and use them to feel like experts.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Just wanted to quote that due to how dead-fuckin-on it is.
UnforgivenTwin
Member
But I thought everyone on the Internet was an expert!? Damn it!
I think Max Landis'' criticism (which propelled it into the mainstream, even if he wasn't the first) was about a week after release.
I wouldn't say that. Kylo Ren's character is interesting because of his relation to the other characters and because out of all the actors in the movie, his was probably the best one. Adam Driver was really selling that character as the tortured child suffering for his little rebellion against his parents that he has taken too far. By far Kylo Ren is the most fleshed out and interesting character of the whole movie.
Yep, to be fair he does have SOME points.
Digital-Hero
Member
The movie had issues, but I am relieved to have liked it. Will be watching the blu-ray tonight. People who don't like it will be in line for Ep8, (heh. Yeah, you will) and the film could be even be worse. There are no guarantees Rian will land Ep8 well.
Even as someone who is completely engrossed in the Star Wars mythos and knows basically everything about it, I found myself not liking TFA, hell I don't like any of the movies apart from ESB, because let's be honest here guys it's the only actual good movie of the lot. I actually don't know how anyone can just watch the movies and still be into Star Wars, I would have bailed long ago if the movies were all that I had to go by, all but one of them range from mediocre to shit.
My love for Star Wars stems from the non-movie material, like the books, games, comics, shows and all that, since they delve more into the finer aspects of the lore which the movies just brush over, and this really isn't the movies fault since you can't have 5 long hour movies where you explain everything in perfect detail, but it still does diminish them somewhat and they end up being poorer for it.
I'm hearing good things about the next movie with Rian and how it may be delving into the weirdness of the Star Wars mythos and the force, stuff which has mostly been limited to the non-movie material thus far. I hope this is true because I really want to see how general audiences react to the weird shit in the lore.
If all the rumors about this movie are true then I refuse to entertain the possibility of it being shit. There's no way, it's impossible.
My love for Star Wars stems from the non-movie material, like the books, games, comics, shows and all that, since they delve more into the finer aspects of the lore which the movies just brush over, and this really isn't the movies fault since you can't have 5 long hour movies where you explain everything in perfect detail, but it still does diminish them somewhat and they end up being poorer for it.
I'm hearing good things about the next movie with Rian and how it may be delving into the weirdness of the Star Wars mythos and the force, stuff which has mostly been limited to the non-movie material thus far. I hope this is true because I really want to see how general audiences react to the weird shit in the lore.
If all the rumors about this movie are true then I refuse to entertain the possibility of it being shit. There's no way, it's impossible.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Rian Johnson is going to land Episode 8.
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