Support NeoGAF

[StarEye]

I use my eyes when I look around, not my head. I move my sight up, I look up, and vice versa. In FPSs, you use a pointer, basically, but there's a camera attached to that pointer. How many of you actually invert the mousepointer's Y?

I do however, invert when I play flight games, because it's like that when flying a plane in real life. I may or may not invert cameras as well in games, but I can use both when it's just the camera. Playing an FPS with inverted Y is completely unheard of for me.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

How so? How does the X- and Y-axis differ when it comes to that? You turn your head up or to the side -- isn't that pretty much the same thing?

In third person games I have them both inverted. I call it the sea saw effect. The character is the pivot point. It's like I'm holding a stick that's connected at his head.

Edit: And here I was thinking devs was wasting their times putting none inverted Y in first person games as default. I guess it's like those brain teasers, where they say figure out which direction the silhouette is spinning. Some will say clockwise, and others will say counterclockwise. Both of them can't understand how it could be any other way.

 

[jax (old)]

funny how this topic just popped up. I just posted this in the R+C DLC game thread:

Tried to replay this today. Couldn't. So Meh. When I was fighting the critters on the boat, I just got bored.

I wanted to come in and comment on one thing: The default LEFT/RIGHT camera swing I couldn't get used to - thank god Insomniac included reversible camera controls. If they hadn't, this game would have been unplayable for me.

So developers if you're reading this. LET US HAVE FULL ACCESS TO CAMERA CONTROL.

kthx

 

[itsinmyveins]

If you are viewing the stick like your head, then tilting the stick to the left, should tilt your head to the left.

Technically, don't planes work that way anyway? It's just that planes are being propelled forward, so the tilt causes them to turn. Still, tilting the stick doesn't directly turn them.

I'm not viewing the stick like that, though. Let's say I had a handle on the back of my head. If someone moves it downwards I'd look up, if someone moved it to the right I'd look left.

 

[Bidermaier]

A traditional analog controller cant be compared or related to the enviroment, its way too abstract.
So trying to establish analogy rules between a analog controller and the real life is ridiculous and pointless.

 

[Torquill]

There is no correct method of camera movement for 3rd person games. There are simply two paradigms, controlling where you are looking vs. controlling the camera.

I find most people, despite their initial expectations, can adapt to either fairly quickly, though any reasonable game should give you control options for this so you can choose whichever one you are more comfortable with. Neither will please everyone, or even a significant majority.

The only reason why inverted Y in first person is sometimes acceptable is because of flight games and the inversion of the flight stick. People get use to this and want to keep the behavior for other games. Totally understandable.

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that people who want to invert their x in first person games (left looks right) are freaks and should be looked down upon as lesser beings.

 

[itsinmyveins]

A traditional analog controller cant be compared or related to the enviroment, its way too abstract.
So trying to establish analogy rules between a analog controller and the real life is ridiculous and pointless.

I agree. I simply use the non-inverted view since I think it's easier to pick up: up means up and down means down, essentially.

But, like already said, when it comes to games where you fly planes and stuff I prefer the inverted one.

 

[Evander]

I'm not viewing the stick like that, though. Let's say I had a handle on the back of my head. If someone moves it downwards I'd look up, if someone moved it to the right I'd look left.

In that case what you're doing is viewing the "ball" at the base of the stick as your head, rather than the part at the top of the stick. I'm just cruious where that line of thinking would develop from (since on consoles, the thumbstick evolved from d-pads which had no ball.

Not that it is somehow wrong, or anything. I'm just intrigued.

 

[Ledsen]

Mouselook: Non-inverted.
Analog Stick: Inverted.

Basically, when I'm moving an analog stick, I see it more like moving a camera, or the back of the person's head. Why? Because that's how the analog stick is anchored. If the analog stick were on the underside of the controller, the opposite would make more sense.

In terms of PC, inverted just never made sense to me. The anchoring that the analog stick has is non-existent and therefore there's no frame of reference built into the hardware. You can just define your own.

Anyways, for anybody who doesn't quite understand where the other side is coming from...

That doesn't make sense at all. If it was like moving a camera, the x-axis would have to be inverted as well. Because when you pull the back of the camera up and to the right, the lens will look down and to the left.

 

[conman]

In third person games I have them both inverted. I call it the sea saw effect. The character is the pivot point. It's like I'm holding a stick that's connected at his head.

Yup. I also invert the x axis for third person games.

Again, look back to the N64 for the origin of this. Mario 64's revolutionary camera (the most important design development in 3D gaming) uses an inverted x-axis.

Why? The Lakitu camera. If you think in terms of vectors it makes sense. You move the Lakitu camera to the left, and the vector formed between the camera and Mario points to the right. Move the Lakitu camera to the right, and the vector points to the left. There was no option to change the "inverted" camera on Mario 64.

Now, in third person games, we just have to imagine that there's a camera. But in Mario 64 they made it seem "natural" by making the camera an actual character. Simply brilliant design.

 

[stewacide]

I used to use inverted camera controls and first-person controls, on PC and console, but playing first-person games on the Wii - COD, MP3, Elebits, etc. - where non-inverted controls are totally natural have got me out of the habit on all systems. I still need inverted camera control however.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

I meant camera in the video game sense, not in the sense of actually operating a camera. As in, you are pointing where you want the camera it point.

I don't think there's really a "video game sense" here, though. Even with a real camera, you're still pointing where you want the camera to point by using the 3D space around the camera. Same thing in a video game. You're manipulating the 3D space around the camera, which is why real-world geometry makes much more sense than envisioning the game-screen as a mere 2D image.

 

[Ledsen]

Oh, and also, I play like this:

FPS on consoles: Y inverted, X normal
FPS on PC: Y normal, X normal
third person: Y inverted, X inverted

O_O

 

[poppabk]

Jedi Knight was my first PC FPS and it defaulted to - move mouse forward = look down. So I learnt this way of controlling. All other PC FPS I played after this defaulted to mouse forward = look up so I had to invert mouse on all of these. I have only played console FPS's a couple of times but I needed to invert on these also. I think the OP is incorrect in thinking that PC FPS's default to mouse forward = down.

 

[Askia47]

i don't care about what the axis is. I just use what the games gives me as default. it only takes a little while to get used to it.

 

[Evander]

You're manipulating the 3D space around the camera

Maybe you are, and that's fine, but I'm not.

I'm manipulating the 2D plane of my screen, and pointing in the direction that I want to pan.

 

[beat]

Wait what? pressing up to look up is not inverted, I play inverted and that means stick up = look down.

edit: maybe I'm confused, but the first posts after the OP seem to be implying that up on stick = look up is, in fact, inverted.

Yeah, all those people are wrong. And so are the minority of games that label "inverted" for up=up.

(I play up=up for everything except flight sims. And I'm still a little mad Gunvalkyrie didn't even have an option, labelled incorrectly or not.)

 

[Emerson]

When I play an FPS I don't consider the thumbstick to control the character's head, rather I just imagine I'm controlling his eyes. In that case inverted makes no sense at all.

 

[Slavik81]

Going by this, wouldn't the inverted people want to invert the X-axis as well?

A good point.
Some do but most don't.

Perhaps the arrows should be moved to the top and bottom rather than the back and front. The Y-axis would then respond in the same way, but the X would not. Or maybe there's simply more to it than that.

I don't think the answer is flight sims, because there's many people who play inverted who've never touched a flight sim...

 

[Torquill]

When I play an FPS I don't consider the thumbstick to control the character's head, rather I just imagine I'm controlling his eyes.

What would be the practical difference in this scenario?


Here's a related question I want to pose to everyone since it directly relates to the last game we released.

If you're presented with a cube and four arrows that rotate it, which direction do you expect the cube to rotate when you click an arrow? Do you expect the cube to rotate in that direction, or do you expect to "travel" that direction on the cube?

 

[Huggy]

With 3rd person games, I think it has to do with how immersed you are in the game.

Stick left = move camera to left, so field of view to right.

or

Move character head left, so field of view left.

Basically the same thing with first person games... am I controlling the character or the camera representing it?

 

[RobertM]

Only in flying games otherwise it's retarded.

 

[Goldrusher]

I use non-inverted...but I used to prefer inverted, controlling the weapon like a plane in a flight sim. But when I started looking more at the crosshair as a mouse cursor, it just didn't make any sense to use inverted.

Always used normal (mouse up, look up) controls on PC.

 

[DDayton]

Maybe you are, and that's fine, but I'm not.

I'm manipulating the 2D plane of my screen, and pointing in the direction that I want to pan.

Except that, in most games, you aren't, given that panning "Up" or "down" changes your characters angle of viewing... it doesn't simply move the 2D "box" of your screen up or down in the game world.

I've always considered camera control in games to be one of two things..

a) Flight Games: The controls should work like those in an actual aircraft. Pull back on the joystick to go up, push forward on the joystick to go down... it's "back and forward", not "up and down".

b) 3D/FPS/Etc: The "camera" joystick represents a physical camera in the 3D world. When filming with a camera, you lean forwad to film the ground, you lean backward to film the sky... again, "foward and backward", not "up and down".

 

[Slavik81]

That doesn't make sense at all. If it was like moving a camera, the x-axis would have to be inverted as well. Because when you pull the back of the camera up and to the right, the lens will look down and to the left.

I actually do invert the X-axis for many 3rd person games. You're right, though. I generally do not invert the X for FPS titles.

Maybe I use that somewhat broken convention because there's not always an invert-x option for FPS titles? Consistency is far more important than whatever convention you choose.

Hard to say. I don't have a clear answer.
But at least it helps to illustrate how 'up=up' is not the only sensible solution.

 

[Torquill]

Hard to say. I don't have a clear answer.

Because there isn't one . Except inverted X in first person, that's just wrong, terribly terribly wrong.

 

[Ourobolus]

I've always played PC FPS games with normal controls. Without a reference point with the mouse, it just seems easier to control.

However, I play console FPS games with an inverted Y-axis and a normal X-axis. Why?

Y-axis: It controls your head. You tilt forward to look down, and tilt backwards to look up. The pivot point of the neck makes this necessary.
X-axis: It controls your body. You tilt left to turn left. You tilt right to turn right. Since your body is free of a pivot point, it makes sense that left and right are normal.

 

[Pellham]

I've never felt the need to invert x, but I always invert the y axis in console games. I don't know who decided that up looks up in the console world after the look axis was firmly embedded to be the opposite in PC FPS games ages beforehand.

When I visit a friend who is playing an FPS on a 360 or something and hasn't inverted the Y axis I cringe. I still recall the first time I saw bioshock, they handed me the controller and I could barely play until I inverted the y axis - they thought I was fucking crazy for doing this.

Where did it all start? Why is the standard look y-axis on the consoles the opposite of what became natural on PCs long before? I can't recall any console game that I didn't have to invert y, even UT3 PS3 I think I had to invert Y so pulling down on the mouse didn't have me staring at the floor.

How many of you leave the y-axis alone?

I prefer the y-axis inverted, and I never knew why until this thread made me think about it for 10 seconds.

When you press up, it's like you're bending forward, so you look down. When you press down, it's like you're bending backwards, so you look up. I guess that's why I can only play it that way.

I never invert the x-axis though, not even sure why that's an option in some games.

 

[Torquill]

Y-axis: It controls your head. You tilt forward to look down, and tilt backwards to look up. The pivot point of the neck makes this necessary.

I don't follow. If you're looking down what's moving up? Are you controlling an imaginary hand grabbing your hair?

 

[itsinmyveins]

In that case what you're doing is viewing the "ball" at the base of the stick as your head, rather than the part at the top of the stick. I'm just cruious where that line of thinking would develop from (since on consoles, the thumbstick evolved from d-pads which had no ball.

Not that it is somehow wrong, or anything. I'm just intrigued.

Maybe it's got something to do with third person games. There you're placed right behind the character, being the one "moving the handles". I've always seen FPS-games like the same thing, but with your viewpoint just pushed forward a bit, instead of a few feet behind.

Y-axis: It controls your head. You tilt forward to look down, and tilt backwards to look up. The pivot point of the neck makes this necessary.
X-axis: It controls your body. You tilt left to turn left. You tilt right to turn right. Since your body is free of a pivot point, it makes sense that left and right are normal.

Ah, but your head moves with your body and before the body starts turning itself.

 

[Pellham]

I don't follow. If you're looking down what's moving up? Are you controlling an imaginary hand grabbing your hair?

No, you're bending forward (which is up). Your neck isn't actually moving, your upper torso is.


Actually I guess it could just be your head, I dunno, others are obviously explaining it better than me.

 

[soldat7]

The only reason why inverted Y in first person is sometimes acceptable is because of flight games and the inversion of the flight stick. People get use to this and want to keep the behavior for other games. Totally understandable.

I've never played a flight game and I've never played with a flight stick. Inverted Y is simply more natural for me.

 

[Ourobolus]

I don't follow. If you're looking down what's moving up? Are you controlling an imaginary hand grabbing your hair?

That's one way of putting it. If you are looking down, you are pushing your head forward (up). If you look up, you are pulling it back (down).

 

[Torquill]

I've never played a flight game and I've never played with a flight stick. Inverted Y is simply more natural for me.

Hmm, how intriguing.

 

[conman]

With 3rd person games, I think it has to do with how immersed you are in the game.

I don't think "immersed" is the right word. I think you mean: do you identify with the character or with the camera?

Inversion = camera relative (for both x and y axes)

Normal = character relative (for both x and y axes)

Inverted y, normal x = joystick relative (for both x and y axes)


By "joystick relative" I'm referring to the fact that the "mixed" inversion closely resembles how a flight stick works. Up is down, and right is right (because of how the y axis maps to ailerons to move horizontally in space and the x axis maps to opposing ailerons to turn in space). So, when you mix the inversion scheme, you're actually playing as though the joystick is a flight stick.

 

[Ourobolus]

Ah, but your head moves with your body and before the body starts turning itself.

Yes, in real life. However, the way FPS games are designed implies that you are always looking forward. Meaning your head is pretty much capable of only looking up and down on its own.

Looking up-and-left means you are turning your body left while looking up.

EDIT: Actually, I have a better way to explain that. In FPS games, you have a gun, typically. When you look left, your gun moves, right? Therefore your body is moving with your head, since your arms aren't changing position indpendent of the torso.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Yes, in real life. However, the way FPS games are designed implies that you are always looking forward. Meaning your head is pretty much capable of only looking up and down on its own.

Looking up-and-left means you are turning your body left while looking up.

But that's the thing with trying to apply real world stuff on the controller. I doesn't work that well. I'm just giving up and down the same base as left and right.

 

[BobFromPikeCreek]

The only problem with control inversion is people who try to act superior to people who use the opposite of what they use. Both make sense in different contexts, use what you like to use and just play your damn game.

I think what people use comes down to how long they've been playing console games. Inverted Y used to be the standard, then it stopped. The people who have been playing console games for a long time are used to invert, while the people who started later with stuff like Halo are not.

 

[Ourobolus]

But that's the thing with trying to apply real world stuff on the controller. I doesn't work that well. I'm just giving up and down the same base as left and right.

Right, but for the things that are applicable to real life (inverted Y-axis movement = tilting your head), I tried. For X-axis movement, some restrictions have to be made. You basically have to imagine yourself as unable to look left and right independent of the rest of your body, which is why it makes sense to me that X-axis left=left, and right=right.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Maybe you are, and that's fine, but I'm not.

I'm manipulating the 2D plane of my screen, and pointing in the direction that I want to pan.

You aren't really manipulating the 2D plane there. Manipulation of the 2D plane would be Nunchuk+Wiimote. The Wiimote controls the position of the crosshair and nothing else, while the nunchuk joystick controls the camera in 3D space: the tilts, pans, and so on.

When you have crosshair control independent of the camera control, that's manipulating the 2D plane of the screen. Lightgun games, for example.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything. This is just a really interesting topic.

 

[shpankey]

My brother was an inverted guy. Back when Halo came out, I lied to him and told him you couldn't change it, just to make him a normal guy. He hated it for the longest time. It was hilarious watching him try to play always looking up and down the wrong way. lol :lol

He loved the game by watching us all play 4 player deathmatch and so badly wanted in, finally learned the normal way. He now is locked in on normal for everything and is converted and proclaims it superior now.

Yes, I lied on purpose to fix the error of his ways and would do it to everyone in the world if I could. *grin*

Up = up 4evever!

 

[soldat7]

Hmm, how intriguing.

Maybe it's dependent upon which hemisphere you live in.

Yes, I lied on purpose to fix the error of his ways and would do it to everyone in the world if I could. *grin*

Neither method is unorthodox though.

 

[BobFromPikeCreek]

My brother was an inverted guy. Back when Halo came out, I lied to him and told him you couldn't change it, just to make him a normal guy. He hated it for the longest time. It was hilarious watching him try to play always looking up and down the wrong way. lol :lol

He loved the game by watching us all play 4 player deathmatch and so badly wanted in, finally learned the normal way. He now is locked in on normal for everything and is converted and proclaims it superior now.

Yes, I lied on purpose to fix the error of his ways and would do it to everyone in the world if I could. *grin*

Up = up 4evever!

You fail to live up to your tag.

 

[shpankey]

I thought it was funny. Even he laughs about it now. Don't be so serious. I'm only kidding when I say I would convert the world.

Too many people take this stupid issue way to serious.

 

[poppabk]

Yeah, all those people are wrong. And so are the minority of games that label "inverted" for up=up.

Well there really isn't an "up" for a thumbstick anyway or a mouse. We only consider forward = up because we use them in 2D also. No-one would consider inverting the thumbstick for movement at all rational, because they are thinking forwards = forwards not because up = forwards.

 

[pringles]

I've NEVER met anyone who thought inverted was more "natural" or better than regular (up=up). This goes for both PC and Console.
I didn't even know there were people who had inverted on PC.. pushing the mouse forward to look down?? That's the craziest thing I've heard all day.

P.S. This is obviously only regarding First-person games. In Flight games or for example in Halo when flying the banshee, inverted is the way to go. In 3rd person games I can play with both, but usually have regular there as well.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I've probably logged in 1000's of hours playing both ways, so it's not even an issue to me. After about 3 minutes of gameplay, I can adjust.

 

[soldat7]

I've NEVER met anyone who thought inverted was more "natural" or better than regular (up=up). This goes for both PC and Console.
I didn't even know there were people who had inverted on PC.. pushing the mouse forward to look down?? That's the craziest thing I've heard all day.

P.S. This is obviously only regarding First-person games. In Flight games or for example in Halo when flying the banshee, inverted is the way to go. In 3rd person games I can play with both, but usually have regular there as well.

Do you swap your controls really fast when piloting the Banshee?

There was a Halo 2 tournament at the Gamestop where my buddy and I lined up for Halo 3. They wouldn't allow you to invert the controls. 4 people out of around 50 decided to participate in said tournament.

 

[boyshine]

When I play an FPS I don't consider the thumbstick to control the character's head, rather I just imagine I'm controlling his eyes. In that case inverted makes no sense at all.

But you're not. If you were controlling his eyes.. imagine the "ball" underneath the analog stick is the characters eye. Which way would you move the stick to make the eye look up? Backwards, right?

No, you're viewing the controller as a 2D picture, where you see the "face" of the controller in front of you and moving the stick forwards is "up". And moving it up = looking up. Pushing the stick forwards is the same as pushing the mouse forward on a flat surface. 2D. Pushing the mouse forward moves the mouse pointer up on the screen.

Inverted gamers see it as a 3D view where tilting the stick forward is the same as rolling a scroll wheel forward. Now, which way does your window roll if you roll the scroll wheel on your mouse forward? Down, right?

It really is quite interesting how people are complete opposites in this one area of gaming. I think the reason people don't have the issue as much with a joystick is because a joystick is always placed on a horisontal surface. Noone views pushing a joystick forward as up. In fact.. if you're in a flight game, and someone tells you "PULL UP!", you automatically pull the joystick towards you (or maybe straight up, if your parents are related). Which for non-inverted analog stick gamers would mean 'down'. Fun

 

[zombieshavebrains]

I played all my console FPS with "legacy" controls and inverted Y axis. That is until games started coming out that didn't give me the options to change them. So then i had to learn how to control like everybody else with the default controls and inverted Y.