You *were* prepared, though, to enter the conversation by linking us to a very factual important article, stating that we should all read it, implying that you were the type to research and support your claims as per the M.O. of any debate thread on NeoGAF.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
How do you feel about "Alternate Medicine"?
- Thread starter Kinitari
- Start date
- Status
You *were* prepared, though, to enter the conversation by linking us to a very factual important article, stating that we should all read it, implying that you were the type to research and support your claims as per the M.O. of any debate thread on NeoGAF.
Saying nothing is true is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is many truths are not definitive the way most precieve them. As our understanding of the cause and effect relationship changes over time our truths change with it. Our frameworks which we use to work out the details changes but our observation of whatever we are looking at is still there.
Much science today use to be seen as "magic" in our past. Odds are many things veiwed currently as bullshit or magic will have an explanation at some point in our future. It's a natural pattern in our evolving understanding of the world.
Speaking of the placebo effect, I find it funny so many frame it in a negative context or way to create a counter argument. To me the placebo effect is an amazing observation that deserves way more study then it gets. Understaning the mechanisim to recreate the placebo effect would literly create a magic pill from nothing. However that is the LAST thing drug companies would want science to understand.
Btw, there are more then a few popular drugs that in controlled studies are only slightly mores effective then placebo. I'm talking single digit percentage points here.
I honestly don't know why you keep pushing me. I said "sorry" and "apologies" and tried to just move on twice.
What are you actually trying to say here? If I randomly link to a NY Times article I thought was interesting, I should be ready to defend entire lines of medicine with only peer reviewed papers on a video game off topic forum?
Yeah bro, you got me. Totally.
Damn fucking straight.
whatsinaname
Member
I have a lot of family who strongly believe in Ayurveda and Homeopathy. (We are Indian).
While I might see how Ayurvedic medicine 'may' work, it is still just knowledge that has been passed down from generation to generation and based off accumulated experiences. There is no reason to turn to Ayurveda when we have cures based on scientific methodologies we can rely on.
Maybe as a last case scenario when all other routes fail?
Homeopathy is bullshit.
Chiropractors curing renal disease and cancer is bullshit.
Reiki therapy is bullshit.
Then go do the hard work to prove it. There are many things that aren't impossible, but without evidence there's no reason to take their existence for granted and throw out all current understanding just because we could be wrong.
The placebo effect is limited. Very limited. Said magic pill could only address the psychological, subjective symptoms. If you think it could fight cancer or cure an infection, you misunderstand the placebo effect on a fundamental level. It's a change in perception, but "as above, so below" or "mind or matter."
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
You forgot death.
It can make you wonder. It can inspire you to look it up and see if there's anything to it. In this case continuously repeating their academic achievements in lieu of actual evidence makes you guilty of committing a logical fallacy.
Alternatively, I have my degree and you don't. I win.
The way your taking about placebo is a major part of my point. You talk as if your current understanding and knowledge is the be all end all truth. What I am saying is not to discredit current knowledge but be more aware and open to the fact that its just "current" knoweldge.
I'm curious, what is your take on documented cases of unexplained remissions and healing in general? Where do you fit them in your current understanding or existing frameworks?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I need some citation on this sir.
I don't want to be harsh, but you're sort of roaming into conspiracy theory territory. There have been billions spent on alternative medicine research, and there are billions made selling what is essentially snake oil. The idea of some corporate conspiracy isn't accurate, considering some companies dabble on both sides of the fence for profit.
No one is claiming that scientific/medical knowledge is absolute, only that there are strict requirements and tests. Tests that most alternative medicine constantly fail quite thoroughly.
So... while your original point is that we shouldn't discount alternative medicine, I think an argument can be made that we aren't discounting it outright, but only after it has been proven to be undeserving of our attention.
Kano on the Phone
Member
You should have something peer reviewed if you're going to defend the fantastical, yes. If I said "my professor had a talk where he presented a convincing argument for the existence of unicorns," then I should be prepared to either defend it or be ridiculed. It's especially scary considering your intended profession.
I'm kinda surprised most people in the States believe that chiropractic stuff is an alternative medicine.... here in Quebec, you can have a doctorate in that, they're licensed professionals, they're allowed to use radiography, doctors may give you a prescription for an appointment there.
Actually I'm reading about it now and it seems you have a different vision of what is chiropractic. You'll never go there for liver problems or whatever... only for bones or mobility problems, that kind of stuff.
Actually I'm reading about it now and it seems you have a different vision of what is chiropractic. You'll never go there for liver problems or whatever... only for bones or mobility problems, that kind of stuff.
My bad if I gave off a conspiracy vibe, that wasnt my intention.
The problem I see that is there are things that are potentially valid and useful that are not tested or proven (at least in the traditional or objective sense) simply because there is lack of research, etc.
Research and testing has its own set of issues and I think its an area that we should be put more effort in expanding and refining.
Kano on the Phone
Member
Exactly. The argument is not against guys who push your spine back into place because you have a bad back, it's really against the "adjusting your back will cure things other than bad backs" sort of chiropractors. It can be especially dangerous because some of them will do this sort of work on people who don't need it, even kids.
What is this based on other than a hypothetical?
Phoenix
Member
Until you get your stuff through clinical trials I think that it is dangerous and irresponsible quackery. We've seen time and time again that most of this stuff doesn't work and many times that it has side effects that cause all sorts of problems that probably would have been caught if it had gone to clinical trials.
I am personally not a fan of giving folks false hope.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
What does this have to do with alternative medicine though? Science deals with observable outcomes, if you don't have an observable outcome then what exactly is the point?
If you can't demonstrate that your treatment is effective then why would I use it? Discussions of truth are interesting but are not actually relevant to whether something actually works.
PS why do you think that a miracle cure is something that people in the science field would be against? Believe it or not scientists and doctors are just people, and would like to see a miracle cure the same as everyone else.
The thread title is "how do you feel about alternative medicine?" It's not, let's all argue for the validity of it with peer reviewed papers only.
Chiropractic care is hardly on the same level as unicorns. I don't know why you feel better by going there with it. I've been to one and they fixed a chronic pain I had in my shoulder for years.
And I don't know what you think is scary in regards to my profession. Am I going to randomly start pulling unprescribed chiropractic moves on patients in the hospital without doctor's orders? That's pretty insulting. You do what you're told, and chart every single thing in extreme detail. I never said I'm a chiropractor, at all. Jesus.
"Alternative medicine" is a quite wide term, me thinks. The only "alternative medicine" that I got a close experience with was a Reiki practicioner guy that I knew. You can think that Reiki was bullshit, but the guy's working ethic was rock solid:
- He did not allowed nor encouraged his patients to abandon his conventional medicine treatments, he always thought of Reiki as a "complementary therapy"
- He did not accepted any payments unless their patient's doctors certified a measurable remittance of their conditions
Placebo or not, I think that he got the right idea about how these things should be handled
But I want to feel morally superior to you for believing in things that haven't reached a proper scientific consensus among the academic community. What should I do with my righteous scorn then?
- He did not allowed nor encouraged his patients to abandon his conventional medicine treatments, he always thought of Reiki as a "complementary therapy"
- He did not accepted any payments unless their patient's doctors certified a measurable remittance of their conditions
Placebo or not, I think that he got the right idea about how these things should be handled
But I want to feel morally superior to you for believing in things that haven't reached a proper scientific consensus among the academic community. What should I do with my righteous scorn then?
My father-in-law is a conspiracy nut, an avid follower of anything in the alternative medicine field and he subscribes to all sorts of looney pamphlets and publications
His latest kick is about a home shock therapy kit that purports to rid the stomach of microscopic hook-worms which apparently cause every geriatric malady known.
I think it's all money making schemes and generally a load of crap.
His latest kick is about a home shock therapy kit that purports to rid the stomach of microscopic hook-worms which apparently cause every geriatric malady known.
I think it's all money making schemes and generally a load of crap.
Onion_Relish
Member
Let me rephrase: Steve jobs retarded insistence on alternative medicine killed him.
Phoenix
Member
I dunno. I'm still not a fan. I mean I could come up with something called "masterbation therapy" whereby you cleanse your system through the act of self pleasure. I wouldn't charge anything for it and not encourage people to stop taking their regular medications - but outside of having the world's largest beat off sessions recorded in a single building, since I have no evidence that anything is getting better - am I really doing a service or disservice to the practitioners?
Phoenix
Member
What's his address? His malady is perfect for masterbation therapy. You can jerk those worms right out of your body with my 10 step process!
It is unfortunate that so many people think that corporations are out there hoarding cures or trying to prevent progress on certain diseases.
Kano on the Phone
Member
It also isn't "let's all treat each other with kid gloves." No one has been unfair to you, you're just weirdly pissed because everyone rightfully called you out on offering extremely flimsy anecdotal evidence. You don't get to be the victim just because you got called out on being wrong, bro.
The guy is charging people money for nothing. Even if he's slightly better at framing it, he's still a lying piece of shit.
"I don't charge for these sugar pills unless they actually provide a placebo effect."
So it's "no kid gloves" in here, but if I get "weirdly pissed" that's clearly taking it too far? Makes perfect sense.
So "weird" to be offended if someone implies you're dangerous and negligent. Guess you need the kid gloves.
blame space
Banned
i'm taking all kinds of weird supplements
The only thing that matters is: does Reiki work? The goal of medicine is the treatment of disease, not being a good guy. A Reiki practitioner somewhere is an altruist? Awesome. Does Reiki work? There's no evidence of it working beyond placebo, and as Opiate points out, we can use whatever mechanism we want for administering placebo. Presenting Reiki and other bullshit as effective medicine serves to mislead credulous people and leads to unnecessary deaths, as with Steve Jobs.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Which sadly isn't always that bad alternatives to a lot of the shit medicine out there, with doctors and psychiatrists just wanting to fill you will pills. As much as I hate alternative medicine bullshit, the medical industry is often full of just as much bullshit, so much corruption and useless medicine out there.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Well because of this thread I found out what Serotonin Syndrome is. Damn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome
Too much Serotonin develops in your brain in a small amount of time and you get sick and die.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome
Too much Serotonin develops in your brain in a small amount of time and you get sick and die.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Examples of ineffective medicines that the FDA allows to stay on the market?
Broder Salsa
Banned
I'm not American so didn't even knew what the FDA was (although my guess before googling was correct). The amount of antidepressants that people can't get off today is staggering and for quite a lot unnecessary with terrible terrible side effects, the worst however being the drugged up kids because everyone with a bit of trouble learning in school got ADHD. I believe some bullshit placebo effect even from healers or meditating and such can be better to a lot more useful to a lot of depressed people than just making them walking pill eating zombies which it's easy to see the tendency to here, cause it will actually make them feel good even if the reasons seems kind of silly.
hockeypuck
Member
Uh, yes? Put up a scientific claim in a board full of people with advanced degrees and/or the ability to actually analyze scientific papers, be prepared to be skewered if you can't back it up. There have been plenty of threads with citations provided.
Nexium. Bullshit PPI no better than generic omeprazole that was allowed to be patented and thus overcharged to deluded patients convinced by direct to consumer commercials.
If you want to include medical equipment, the you can also include the da Vinci robotic system for a myriad of procedures that are no better than conventional techniques.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
So they are effective.
This is factually incorrect. There is a wealth of knowledge that the effect can be observed even when the paitent is aware a treatment is a placebo. Here for more info.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I'm willing to do whatever works.
Get that peer reviewed shit out of here.
hockeypuck
Member
Except for time spent setting up the equipment is much longer compared to conventional techniques, thus increasing time under general anesthesia for the patient. My interpretation of effectiveness was more liberal than yours. Outcomes are no different, I should clarify.
It is not incorrect. What you are describing is referred to as the "meaning response" which is a subconscious psychological phenomenon.
You can read more about it here:
http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=715182
Regardless, my primary point was that placebo is also caused by science based medicine, which means that it isn't some special benefit of alternative therapies that might legitimize their use even if they don't have actual physiological effects.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
That doesn't really contradict what he stated, the study you referenced effectively told them that the placebo would work.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
And how do you evaluate what to try and how do you determine what works?
If you are using alternative medicine you are still evaluating it by the scientific method, you are just doing extremely bad science with a high probability of incorrect results.
The man had pancreatic cancer. Statistically speaking, he would be dead by today even if he had agreed to the Whipple procedure as soon as he was diagnosed.
The first reply has it.
As someone with vast personal experience in various health problems, I have found each and every alternative medicine method to be a complete scam. And I'm not sorry if this offends anyone. I have never seen anyone get better with anything except actual medicine. And I've had, sadly, too many chances. Alternative medicine is for healthy people. Alternative medicine kills sick people.
As someone with vast personal experience in various health problems, I have found each and every alternative medicine method to be a complete scam. And I'm not sorry if this offends anyone. I have never seen anyone get better with anything except actual medicine. And I've had, sadly, too many chances. Alternative medicine is for healthy people. Alternative medicine kills sick people.
Seems like a definitional point. The placebo reaction in its entirety is a psychophysiological reaction to inert (usually chemical stimuli, there is evidence that just being told by a doctor that you’ll get better soon also can elicit a placebo response).
I agree that some alternative therapies might be beneficial even in a superficial sense of a placebo but there can be risks involved such as in acupuncture, where dirty needles have been known to transmit HIV, or punctured lungs from negligently inserting the needles. Sham acupuncture (where they don't actually puncture the skin) is a good alterative without the risks.
Some alternative medicine has been adopted into mainstream medicine and there is a huge body of evidence that shows that meditation is effective in maintaining mood stability, increasing happiness, lowering the risk of mental illness, and for managing stress.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
He had an easily treatable form of Pancreatic cancer.
Well Arksy had real evidence to back up his position, too. There are people being illogical in this thread, but he isn't one of them.
It really depends on how one defines the word "know." That seems rather asinine, but in scientific discussions nitpicking words isn't unreasonable. You can say that someone "knows" that the placebo effect doesn't work, but that it effects them anyway; a scientist might say your conscious brain knows it doesn't work, while the subconscious still wants to believe.
Whatever you call that is up for discussion, but it's such a complicated discussion that has no clear scientific answer -- it would require a separate thread all to itself. I'd rather just stick to my primary point, which was that placebo isn't a special, unique benefit of alternative therapies. Evidence shows that increased attention and care to patients increases the chances of good outcomes, too.
You can give people the placebo effect with science based medicine, and give them lots of attention and care, while also giving them treatments which have real physiological effects outside of that.
OK good. Real chiropractors are godsend.
- Status