cartman414
Member
TSA said:
I thought Oracle of Ages was superior to LttP.
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How do you think Nintendo could make a better Zelda?
- Thread starter tanod
- Start date
I thought Oracle of Ages was superior to LttP.
I wouldn't mind a Zelda game beginning with a cutscene that depicts something traumatic happening to a younger Ganon; like his village and family getting destroyed by raiders or something, hell I don't know, I'm not a writer. Something like that would add some depth to the character, which would be kind of refreshing considering how bland of a character Ganon is. Might be too plot heavy for a Zelda game though--Zelda doesn't need to have some epic story with a weaving plotline, but it would be nice to at least know who the players are.
OoT established the character of Link very, very well without too much exposition. It would be nice to have something like that with some other characters. Yeah, Midna had some depth, but I'd like to know more about Ganon--or even Zelda. Zelda has always been a pretty bland character.
It'd also be nice to see Zelda return to its roots as a sandbox game, open the world up. OoT was probably more linear because of the constraints of the system, I'd love to see a Zelda more akin to the 2D Zelda games but in 3D.
OoT established the character of Link very, very well without too much exposition. It would be nice to have something like that with some other characters. Yeah, Midna had some depth, but I'd like to know more about Ganon--or even Zelda. Zelda has always been a pretty bland character.
It'd also be nice to see Zelda return to its roots as a sandbox game, open the world up. OoT was probably more linear because of the constraints of the system, I'd love to see a Zelda more akin to the 2D Zelda games but in 3D.
A Black Falcon
Member
MasterMFauli said:I disagree.
Zelda´s biggest problem right now is, that it plays always the same. OoT invented lock-on, and it was great, but now we´ve reached a stage where it gets boring.
I dont want Devil May Cry-like brainless-battles, where everything just looks cool.
Some kind of deeper gameplay-mechanics than even OoT is what Zelda needs.
Before OoT, you had to lead your character towards the enemy and beat him. Then OoT came, giving you lock-on, which lead to more intensive face-to-face-battles. NOW, we need something even deeper. Making it like Devil May Cry or God of War is the opposite direction and the wrong thing for Zelda. Zelda never was about stylisch, cool fights, it was about realistic, fearsome battles. Well, TWW and then TP forgot the "fearsome", though
But that´s where thinking has to start:
HOW can we make the gamer feel even more immersive?
Story and character-development, all nice and such, but at the moment, the gameplay itself has to improve, to change. A better story makes me enjoy the game one time, great gameplay makes me want to play it again and again.
Well, given that we're presumably talking about a Wii game here, having
A Black Falcon said:
might help with that... though, to truly be effective they'd have to combine it with a locational damage system. What would be the point about having control over exactly how you use your weapons if the only difference is the graphical look of the swing?
You're right of course that Zelda has forgotten how to be hard, but there are many ways to deal with that without drastically changing the game... going back to 'return to the dungeon enterance if you die' would help, having enemies do more damage when they hit you would help (in LttP if you get hit you usually lose one or two hearts. In WW/TP if you get hit you usually lose a quarter heart... there's a huge gap between the two, and it makes the newer ones a lot easier), as would better enemy AI (this is something they have worked on some, like with the swordfights in OoT and the fights against enemies in armor in WW and TP; they just need to toughen it up a bit.)
I think that the basic concept of the lock-on fight as created in OoT is a good one. They don't need to change that model in order to make the game more difficult, more fun, and more interactive, and they also wouldn't need to fundamentally change it if they had other playable characters either.
That is... while there are things I want them to change, as I have said, the basic combat system isn't one where I would say a dramatic overhaul is needed.
MasterMFauli
Banned
A Black Falcon said:
Well, that´s where i think different.
Fighting in TP was quite fun, but...no challenge at all. Even more defensive enemies wouldnt have helped. The comat itself feels too weightless.You slash with your sword and you get a nice flashy effect, but...it doesnt feel to immersive. Also, i think 1:1-sword controls are a must. You know what i dream of? Holding your sword in front of you, and then slowly turning it, changing from flat side to edge and the other way round. Toying around with the edge beneath the enemy´s chin, who stands still in fear of dying. The typical pose you see in oh so many movies.
Anyways, i want the combat system, or rather the whole movement of Link to become more heavy and therefore immersive. Thowing a rope the falls to ground if not thrown hard enough. Hitting the enemy with your elbow, if the your´re too close to use your sword. Aim an arrow by drawing back the bow with the movement of the wiimote, and that one arrow killing an enemy instantly if hit in the right place.
Since OoT and MM, Zelda-games have become to heavyless in terms of gameplay. That was always one the big positive aspects of Zelda...that you could feel every step Link does.
Amir0x said:
Yes. Please do...but don't forget to tell them about the freaking rupee problem, and for the love of GAF, tell them to include an optional Hard mode, even if you have to beat it to unlock it. Cave of Ordeals was great--imagine if the fighting could be that fun in the overworld and all the dungeons.
Didn't read mostof the pages in this thread, but before I go back to work, I'm really curious how WW's story was better, let alone the gigantic leap better than OoT that so many people seem to think? The only noteworthy thing it did was humanize Ganon. Everything else was just in presentation.
Celery&Lager
Member
Has anyone who's involved with the series (Aonuma?) given any hints as to the direction ZeldaWii will be taking?
Evangelos said:
I believe it was Miyamoto that said Twilight Princess will be the "last Zelda of its kind"...(PALGN Link, first place I could find it)
I think that's all anyone has heard, other than "Zelda Wii is in development".
There are a "few" things that I would really like to see happen in the next Zelda. Sorry its so long, but its good stuff covering most gameplay/world stuff.
1. A deeper combat system with different techniques and styles.
a) Many of TPs sword techniques were rather useless and for the most part just normal sword swipes and spin attacks were the easiest and most effective against any type or group of enemies. I would like to see more of a need and usefulness to these techniques, as well as making them more fluid and
b) Lock-on was a great feature but it needs to expand, multiple enemy battles could be a lot more than just spin attacks and quick locking. Doesnt need to be drastic but a style or system to allow for more fluid and engrossing multiple enemy battles would be great rather than the current shuffling from enemy to enemy.
c) Added to that TP was great that you could attack while moving but its needs to be stepped up. Not just moving while attacking but a greater sense of flow to fighting where you arent just lunging forward when attack but Link fluidly moves and swipes all around.
d) Being able to damage enemies in all cases, not just when they are standing, but falling and on the ground or getting up.
e) More damage animations for all than just being hit and falling. I like it a lot in TP when riding Epona that you were knocked to the side and not just thrown off. Even then Link never really flowed very well in TP, he was way too rigid in and out of combat as were most enemies.
f) Make more of the Items useful and important to defeating enemies and bosses. Too many items in Zelda, especially in TP, were only useful in there area with a few enemies and its boss.
g) Make magic more important, I dont need a whole slew of spells, but abilities and techniques, offensive and defensive, that rely on it; adding more depth and strategy to fights both regular and Boss.
2. Dungeons/Temples and Boss Battles.
a) The urgency and purpose behind dungeons is kind of being lost to me. One of my most favorite was the Fire Temple in OoT because there was a real sense of purpose in there saving the imprisoned Gorons. Maybe changing things around and rather than being all dungeons/temples its just a town or city, a prison or facility of some kind with more resonance and purpose for the need to go in there and go through it and beat its boss.
b) I need mini bosses that are really a mini-boss not just a large group of some type of normal enemy or a stronger version of it. A real mini-boss all unique with their own AI, moves, etc is what I desire.
c) Boss battles need to change. The three times rule is getting old. The whole formula of almost every single boss, that is finding their weak spot, doing action "A" to expose it and then "B" hitting it mercilessly finally "C" repeat 2 more times, some times more if you didnt do "B" well the first 3 times, is getting old. The challenge just isnt there. I need variations of attacks and possibly less colossal bosses that are more about skill, tactics and finesse then sequence solving.
3. More depth and interactivity with the world.
a) I really like MM the most possibly of all Zeldas because depending what day and time it was something different was happening and what you did varied in effect. I want to see more interaction and impact on the NPCs and the world. Side quests that dont just get you some Rupees or heart piece but actually expand the world and experience of the world and people in it.
b) As in MM there was constant interaction and intimacy with the NPCs. I really developed an emotional attachment to them than in any other Zelda.
c) More optional mini-dungeons, puzzle challenges and fighting challenges that are more than just swarms of enemies but actually Mini-Boss/Boss type battles.
d) Actions the player can take that really effect the development and layout of the world. Both in and out of side quests. Giving a greater sense of purpose to exploring the world and messing around with items and areas than just looking for some heart piece or rupees.
e) Have more events out of the dungeons/temples. TP had a great huge open world but most of the time it felt wasted. Do more with it and towns, large scale battles and raids on villages, things of that nature.
4. More purpose and insight to the characters and the story.
a) I dont think Link really needs to talk but I wouldnt be against more choices of action and response when dealing with NPCs.
b) A plot and characterization of villains and heroes in the story that really shows who they are and why they are doing what they are doing is needed. A reason behind world domination or why Link and supporting members are risking it all to stop it. Even if it is Good vs. Evil there can still be more depth, and if its a more intricate story dealing with more than just Good vs Evil even better.
5. More swords, armors and shields.
a) I dont know why but having the ability to just customize how a character looks with multiple options for swords, armors and shields even if they are for just aesthetic reasons has always been a big plus for me.
b) Even then varying these items to be more effective attacking/defending against certain types of enemies be they undead, fire, ice, etc or ones that are good against single opponents or groups would be great. Nothing huge like dozens of each, but more than just two or three shields, armors and swords would be very nice.
c) Optional content is always great, just cause it isnt integral to the game's story and progression doesnt mean there shouldnt be any extras.
6. Difficulty level.
a) Plain and simple let us have the option of Easy, Normal, Hard and Veteran at the start of the game.
b) Its a dream but with those different difficulty levels more or less difficulty on certain puzzles, be it the time to do it or actually having different puzzles for each difficulty setting.
1. A deeper combat system with different techniques and styles.
a) Many of TPs sword techniques were rather useless and for the most part just normal sword swipes and spin attacks were the easiest and most effective against any type or group of enemies. I would like to see more of a need and usefulness to these techniques, as well as making them more fluid and
b) Lock-on was a great feature but it needs to expand, multiple enemy battles could be a lot more than just spin attacks and quick locking. Doesnt need to be drastic but a style or system to allow for more fluid and engrossing multiple enemy battles would be great rather than the current shuffling from enemy to enemy.
c) Added to that TP was great that you could attack while moving but its needs to be stepped up. Not just moving while attacking but a greater sense of flow to fighting where you arent just lunging forward when attack but Link fluidly moves and swipes all around.
d) Being able to damage enemies in all cases, not just when they are standing, but falling and on the ground or getting up.
e) More damage animations for all than just being hit and falling. I like it a lot in TP when riding Epona that you were knocked to the side and not just thrown off. Even then Link never really flowed very well in TP, he was way too rigid in and out of combat as were most enemies.
f) Make more of the Items useful and important to defeating enemies and bosses. Too many items in Zelda, especially in TP, were only useful in there area with a few enemies and its boss.
g) Make magic more important, I dont need a whole slew of spells, but abilities and techniques, offensive and defensive, that rely on it; adding more depth and strategy to fights both regular and Boss.
2. Dungeons/Temples and Boss Battles.
a) The urgency and purpose behind dungeons is kind of being lost to me. One of my most favorite was the Fire Temple in OoT because there was a real sense of purpose in there saving the imprisoned Gorons. Maybe changing things around and rather than being all dungeons/temples its just a town or city, a prison or facility of some kind with more resonance and purpose for the need to go in there and go through it and beat its boss.
b) I need mini bosses that are really a mini-boss not just a large group of some type of normal enemy or a stronger version of it. A real mini-boss all unique with their own AI, moves, etc is what I desire.
c) Boss battles need to change. The three times rule is getting old. The whole formula of almost every single boss, that is finding their weak spot, doing action "A" to expose it and then "B" hitting it mercilessly finally "C" repeat 2 more times, some times more if you didnt do "B" well the first 3 times, is getting old. The challenge just isnt there. I need variations of attacks and possibly less colossal bosses that are more about skill, tactics and finesse then sequence solving.
3. More depth and interactivity with the world.
a) I really like MM the most possibly of all Zeldas because depending what day and time it was something different was happening and what you did varied in effect. I want to see more interaction and impact on the NPCs and the world. Side quests that dont just get you some Rupees or heart piece but actually expand the world and experience of the world and people in it.
b) As in MM there was constant interaction and intimacy with the NPCs. I really developed an emotional attachment to them than in any other Zelda.
c) More optional mini-dungeons, puzzle challenges and fighting challenges that are more than just swarms of enemies but actually Mini-Boss/Boss type battles.
d) Actions the player can take that really effect the development and layout of the world. Both in and out of side quests. Giving a greater sense of purpose to exploring the world and messing around with items and areas than just looking for some heart piece or rupees.
e) Have more events out of the dungeons/temples. TP had a great huge open world but most of the time it felt wasted. Do more with it and towns, large scale battles and raids on villages, things of that nature.
4. More purpose and insight to the characters and the story.
a) I dont think Link really needs to talk but I wouldnt be against more choices of action and response when dealing with NPCs.
b) A plot and characterization of villains and heroes in the story that really shows who they are and why they are doing what they are doing is needed. A reason behind world domination or why Link and supporting members are risking it all to stop it. Even if it is Good vs. Evil there can still be more depth, and if its a more intricate story dealing with more than just Good vs Evil even better.
5. More swords, armors and shields.
a) I dont know why but having the ability to just customize how a character looks with multiple options for swords, armors and shields even if they are for just aesthetic reasons has always been a big plus for me.
b) Even then varying these items to be more effective attacking/defending against certain types of enemies be they undead, fire, ice, etc or ones that are good against single opponents or groups would be great. Nothing huge like dozens of each, but more than just two or three shields, armors and swords would be very nice.
c) Optional content is always great, just cause it isnt integral to the game's story and progression doesnt mean there shouldnt be any extras.
6. Difficulty level.
a) Plain and simple let us have the option of Easy, Normal, Hard and Veteran at the start of the game.
b) Its a dream but with those different difficulty levels more or less difficulty on certain puzzles, be it the time to do it or actually having different puzzles for each difficulty setting.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Amir0x said:
You forgot my ideas
Chris Michael
Banned
If Nintendo never gives me a portable OoT I will hate them forever.
I don't think Nintendo will ever top OoT... that transition fro 2D --> 3D will never be mimicked again, and OoT was the best 2D --> 3D transition ever IMO. I guess that's part of what made it so amazing for me (just part). Unless there's gonna be another dimension of gaming, OoT will never be matched, at least for me.
My first Zelda was LttP. And the transition from LttP to OoT... gosh, so awesome.
I don't think Nintendo will ever top OoT... that transition fro 2D --> 3D will never be mimicked again, and OoT was the best 2D --> 3D transition ever IMO. I guess that's part of what made it so amazing for me (just part). Unless there's gonna be another dimension of gaming, OoT will never be matched, at least for me.
My first Zelda was LttP. And the transition from LttP to OoT... gosh, so awesome.
PkunkFury
Member
They really need to learn from Majora's Mask's atmosphere. The way everything was affected by the position of the moon; the way the NPCs acted, the music, the lighting outside, the moon hovering ominously in just the right place no matter what area you were in... It made the whole world feel cohesive.
also MM put the player in some great situations... feeling cursed as a deku and dealing with the prejuduce of the townsfolk. Playing as dead guys with the Gorons and the Zora, some of the moments when you talked to them as the dead guys were genuinely sad/creepy.
also MM put the player in some great situations... feeling cursed as a deku and dealing with the prejuduce of the townsfolk. Playing as dead guys with the Gorons and the Zora, some of the moments when you talked to them as the dead guys were genuinely sad/creepy.
Chris Michael said:
If Zelda was on the PS3, OoT could be topped. The transition from 3D --> 4D would be amazing. :|
Again, for me Cel-Shaded graphics aren't necessary... but I agree that would be awesome for the next Zelda. But that graphic style shouldn't necessarily become a mainstay in the series.
How? HOW?tanod said:
What about making a REAL sequel and not a remake every fu*king time?!
Rescue Zelda, beat Ganon(dorf. What the fu*k is a Ganondorf??).
It's always the same sh*t and the japanese get sick of it. TP sells like trash!
What about a sequel to the last story? Not a new LINK, every fu*king time. His name is Link, he looks like Link, he's doing the same moves like Link, he is the main-hero of Zelda, but he is not the Link from the last Zelda you've played! WTF is this sh*it?
Ok, I'm buying God of War 2 and I play Kratos, who looks like the Kratos from GOW1, but he is not the same Kratos. He is a Spartan Warrior, he has the Blades of Chaos and he has to beat the God of War Ares to get his revenge. Only the graphics and the way you get to the end of the game is a little bit different. And in GOD3, it's the same all over again. It's not the same Kratos, but he looks the same and you play "a" Kratos and you have to beat the God of War Ares to get your revenge. And after GOD OF WAR 5... you get SICK OF IT!
And the result: Watch TP! Sells like sh*t!
Celery&Lager
Member
Helzown said:
I can't wait for the drama. Wind Waker redux.
None of that, in my mind, justifies the titles constantly being "The Legend of Zelda". With regard to how Nintendo has developed the games, the only character that matters, that cannot be absent, is Link. Ganon and Zelda can both (and are, in particular installments) be replaced... Their involvement in the series is second to Link's. These games aren't legends of Zeldae...or tyrannies of Ganoni...they're adventures of Links.TSA said:
But that's just me. And I don't find the series to be as enthralling as most folks do.
The underlying problem I have with teh Zeldas (and many other games, of course) is...they're novellas pretending to be novels.
And not just in a literary sense.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
Aisenherz said:
Soooo...if TP is selling like shit, what does that say about the 97.5% of games that have sold worse than it?
MasterMFauli
Banned
Chris Michael said:
You know, imagine a whole world being like Windfall Island in TWW....things to find and explore just everywhere, interesting things to see and such. I cant emphasize enough how important Windfall Island to "my" future of the Zelda-series is. A town packed with quests and secrets, that was just awsome.
Nintendo should step away from the dungeon-formula...it´s a silly purpose to take on gigantic temples only to get a stone, mask-part or whatever.
What 3D-Zeldas to me have started to being able to enjoy is the overworld. That´s where the emphasis should be in upcoming Zelda-games. There just isnt a dungeon-type we havent seen...and copying SotC´s ruins-style wouldnt be a good idea, too.
But there are so many thing that could happen in a nice overworld with open forests, a really big lake, a really big mountain-area, that you can climb on from and up to any point, etc..
And what i really want to have is a sidepart. Another character that follows you. And by that i dont meand passive characters like Navi or Midna. I want something like "Link´s best friend", who has a nice character and starts out together with Link. Instead of your typical grand epic story (3 goddesse came down from nothing and built the earth, then offered the Triforce, and so on), this friend and Link could talk with each other. Following that, there´s another thing i´d love to have: A larger scale of time. At night, you´d have to prepare your sleeping-place, if you´re outside of a town. Then you´re sitting around a fire-place, and talk to your friend. Stories, chitchat, but also what he and you feel like. There could be kind of a social sub-quest be, where you have the option to know more about your friend. Of course, this could be expanded to NPCs in general.
To me, Zelda shouldnt be like Metroid, where you always play with fear in mind, bibbering that any time a dangerous enemy could appear. Zelda should be more friendly fantasy-game...with dangerous moments, yeah, but not all the time, and not too often, to make such situations stronger. I dont know..but...make Zelda a mixture of Harvest Moon, Sims, TWW and, hm...any kind of non-linear West-RPG.
TheGreatDave
Banned
Seeing as the game is clearly not going to do as well in Japan as it does in America and Europe, you could take risks with the next Zelda that take it in a direction people expect here. Obviously story is one of them; I personally don't need voice acting, and especially not for Link, but deeper characters with backstory would be good. I like Link being "me", I don't need him to be given a story. But explain to me why Ganondorf is an asshole, why Zelda is special, what the **** Hyrule is. If I care about a character the gameplay may not improve, but the cutscenes will become for more involving.
I think possibly making it a bit more liner is one thing they could change. I don't want to lose Hyrule Field, but at the same time I don't want to spend the whole game going across Hyrule, finding a dungeon, beating it and crossing the field again. The best thing about Twilight Princess in terms of freshness was the few missions that took place outside dungeons; I'd be more than happy having a part where Link...say, gets sent to a castle as a prisoner and has to escape, but with a focus on puzzle solving rather than bosses and enemies. On the flipside, give us a mission where we need to head into a battle outside a dungeon and protect a village before an onslaught of death. Just break the formula a bit more, make the game more surprising. I don't want an overhaul, I want an evolution.
No offense, but that would make me quit the series.
I think possibly making it a bit more liner is one thing they could change. I don't want to lose Hyrule Field, but at the same time I don't want to spend the whole game going across Hyrule, finding a dungeon, beating it and crossing the field again. The best thing about Twilight Princess in terms of freshness was the few missions that took place outside dungeons; I'd be more than happy having a part where Link...say, gets sent to a castle as a prisoner and has to escape, but with a focus on puzzle solving rather than bosses and enemies. On the flipside, give us a mission where we need to head into a battle outside a dungeon and protect a village before an onslaught of death. Just break the formula a bit more, make the game more surprising. I don't want an overhaul, I want an evolution.
No offense, but that would make me quit the series.
Stormbringer
Member
gururoji said:
Once again (I'm REALLY tired of fighting this rumor after all this time. Really), but this quote was from a FAKE interview posted by a crappy French Nintendo fan site to gain attention. Miyamoto actually never said that. Sorry.
MasterMFauli
Banned
One question to all those people complaining about story and wanting improvement in this segment:
WHY have you been playing Zelda-games until now?!?
Even with TP, there is not a single Zelda-game that features a fleshed-out, complex, twisty story. I really cant bear those wishes for better stories, as this is something, Zelda was never about. Go play Final Fantasy or watch movies or read books if you like stories so much.
TP had aleady TOO much story, making the game super linear. Playing through TP again isnt as much fun as it was in OoT or TWW, where you could freely explore the world. In TP, you have to follow the...story.
Everything of a story a Zelda-game needs, is an epic background-story. That is: 3 goddesses createt earth and then fused into the Triforce, that is hidden somewhere and grants, whomever touches it, a wish.
That´s it, and it´s great.
The real game, though, should be about many, little stories, about the daily life in the gaming-world. I havent played one, yet, but i keep hearing that the Dragon Quest-series never has had a too great story, but revovles around accomplishing many mini-stories. That´s what would suit the Zelda-series imo.
Well, remaining the same would make me quit playing the series.
WHY have you been playing Zelda-games until now?!?
Even with TP, there is not a single Zelda-game that features a fleshed-out, complex, twisty story. I really cant bear those wishes for better stories, as this is something, Zelda was never about. Go play Final Fantasy or watch movies or read books if you like stories so much.
TP had aleady TOO much story, making the game super linear. Playing through TP again isnt as much fun as it was in OoT or TWW, where you could freely explore the world. In TP, you have to follow the...story.
Everything of a story a Zelda-game needs, is an epic background-story. That is: 3 goddesses createt earth and then fused into the Triforce, that is hidden somewhere and grants, whomever touches it, a wish.
That´s it, and it´s great.
The real game, though, should be about many, little stories, about the daily life in the gaming-world. I havent played one, yet, but i keep hearing that the Dragon Quest-series never has had a too great story, but revovles around accomplishing many mini-stories. That´s what would suit the Zelda-series imo.
TheGreatDave said:
Well, remaining the same would make me quit playing the series.
..pakbeka..
Member
what about finding the items outside the dungeons, hidden in the overworld, and being able to complete the dungeons in any order as you find the items hidden away in the field?
that would eliminate what is probably my biggest disappointment with the newer zeldas, in each dungeon most of the puzzles require only the item you got in it, and some items are hardly useful outside the dungeon you got it
that would eliminate what is probably my biggest disappointment with the newer zeldas, in each dungeon most of the puzzles require only the item you got in it, and some items are hardly useful outside the dungeon you got it
A Black Falcon
Member
MasterMFauli said:
1:1 is a very bad idea. Seriously, forcing you to make a full swinging motion with the Wiimote every time you want to attack? That would get tiring very quickly (and besides, it's not really accurate per se, since wiimotes are a bit lighter than swords, making 'perfectly accurate motions' impossible)... no, smaller motions that the game interprets into full animations based on your motion are best, though of course if you want to do full motions it should allow that too.
As for the rest of that... perhaps, but not with too much realism. This is Zelda, not serious realistic swordfighting, and it should stay that way. That's not to say that it doesn't need a sense of danger though, it does, but I think you overstate things there, and understate the impact of combat in 3d Zelda games; I thought it was pretty good. That first fight against a Lizardman in the first dungeon on OoT was amazing the first time... and things like the skeleton boss in MM, or when you're surrounded by armored enemies in WW, it evokes that feeling too...
Other weapons would need deep combat systems too -- gestures for spells is an obvious one (like certain PC or DS games, but hopefully done even better), as is a bow motion, but other weapons like the hammer and stuff could be interesting too... (wiimote+nunchuck motion for punch combos?)
Enduin said:
Good stuff here... the one I really disagree with is the 'fewer items' point. I don't think that Zelda games need fewer items. They could use (don't need, but could have) more kinds of weapons and armor, but keeping a sizable main inventory is a good thing too. What's wrong with having a bunch of items and stuff?
Ever since LttP at least, really, I'd say that the Zelda series has done a very good job with NPCs... MM may have gone more in depth with each one, but each Zelda game after the NES ones has its memorable NPCs. LA's particularly stand out... (OoT too though, and some from WW...)
What would changing the setting of a dungeon really do? Dungeons aren't bad... and you do have a purpose: you want the item the boss is guarding.
(Silly perhaps in some regards, but a good enough excuse to get you into a mission that you progress through as you solve the puzzles and defeat the monsters in the dungeon... dungeons are where games like Zelda are at their best.TheGreatDave
Banned
MasterMFauli said:
Wait, so giving the point of the game a little more backstory (Link needs to save the princess, but why does Ganon want to harm her?) is bad, but having Link sitting around a camp fire with some little kid talking about their shitty farm life is fine?
MasterMFauli
Banned
A Black Falcon said:
Im too tired to explain it again, HOW 1:1-sword control would work, but: Throwing this kind of direct control into TWW or TP would get you tired for sure, yeah. That´s why i want to change that. Not an enemy or more every room, every few meters, but one enemy in 10 minutes of play-time, but one HARD to beat enemy. That´s the point. Give enemies a high-level KI. Make them block your attacks intelligently, make them attack, when you give them an opening, and, that´s the biggest improvement, make them flee if they can feel that they´re doomed. Or make them scream to call fellow troops. How awsome would it be to fight a fearsome Dinolfos (or what the reptiles name is), in full armor, in the middle of a field. You hit him several times and suddenly he makes a big jump backwards, stands up high onto his legs and shouts uber-loud with a gruesome voice. (No video-seuqence here, plz) AFterwards, he would continue fighting or flee a bit, but suddenly 2 more Dinolfoz appear. And looking at how even one of them was a hard opponent, 3 are too much, so now YOU have to flee.
Given such enemies, they wouldnt have to be 10 enemies each room, that are killed by 3 sword-slashes.
If it isnt, make it one!
When the Wiimote has been revealed, besides Baseball and tennis, sword-fighting was one of the first things thought of. Seeing how gestures are all we have at the moment, who else could show off the possibilities better than Miyamoto himself with his masterpiece Zelda?
Yeah, but even those are too easy to beat. And TP hardly had any enemy of this caliber...or, better said, not very often.
TheGreatDave said:
A deep complex front-story with many twist like you guys just doesnt suit the Zelda-series.
What im talking about are little stories like the Anju/Kamui-quest in MM, just a bit more fleshed-out than this particular one.
Some random ideas:
-adult link cel shaded (maybe)
-better combat with air combos n stuff (hey they're in SSBM)
-enemies do more damage
-cut back on the BS. When I learn a new move, I don't want to track down a freaking howling stone, learn a song, go find a dog, have the dog turn into a skeleton, have the skeleton teach me a move, confirm I know it, and then have the move flash on screen when I need to guard break an enemy. wtf is this shit? I'm used to just 'unlocking moves.' I can't think of a single other game that has such a grand old overdone hyperbole orgasm just over learning a few freaking moves
-have one of the main 3 die permanently (maybe)
-no motion controls
-some better graphics
-don't delay it over and over again and release it as a launch game for your next console
-adult link cel shaded (maybe)
-better combat with air combos n stuff (hey they're in SSBM)
-enemies do more damage
-cut back on the BS. When I learn a new move, I don't want to track down a freaking howling stone, learn a song, go find a dog, have the dog turn into a skeleton, have the skeleton teach me a move, confirm I know it, and then have the move flash on screen when I need to guard break an enemy. wtf is this shit? I'm used to just 'unlocking moves.' I can't think of a single other game that has such a grand old overdone hyperbole orgasm just over learning a few freaking moves
-have one of the main 3 die permanently (maybe)
-no motion controls
-some better graphics
-don't delay it over and over again and release it as a launch game for your next console
MasterMFauli
Banned
UC1 said:
You havent played Twilight Princess it seems.
Next time you try to troll, try better. It´s obvious, that Zelda Wii is going to have some kind of motion control.
TheGreatDave
Banned
MasterMFauli said:
I can't agree really. The series is evolving and the one area it's been doing that is in story. I don't want it to turn in to ****ing WWE with a Ganondorf face turn, but can you give one reason why it'd be bad to delve a bit more in to backstory? All the Zelda's already have NPCs talking about Zelda and Ganon to some extent already, fleshing that out with more than just two lines of text could only be a good thing in building atmosphere, something Zelda is all about.
Amir0x said:
And I 100% need orchestrated music in the next Zelda. I kind of wish the compositions were stronger too, but that is entirely a matter of personal taste. I can't really remember much of TP except the overworld theme, the "defeated boss" theme (which is ****ing FANTASTIC), and the music from inside the "final dungeon."
What did I miss? Did they give some kind of indication that one of the 3 dies permanently? Must have missed that =/ Did someone from Nintendo confirm that one of the characters is never coming back?MasterMFauli said:
It's obvious, but I don't have to like it. Just cos I like Zelda I have to like waggle? When did that happen?
MasterMFauli
Banned
TheGreatDave said:
Wait. "Backstory" is what i´d call, information about Ganon´s and Zelda´s origins. Is that what you mean? If so, this is something i´d like as well.
What i dont want is an artifically new invented story, with Link loving Zelda, her getting pregnant by evil Ganon, Link rescuing the son, the son becoming Link´s biggest enemy, and at the end, Link sacrifices to seal all evil away.
You get it?
Why i dont want something like that? Look at TP. TP had such kind of a story, and it was a complete linear game. You couldnt really explore the game-world until very late in the game. And exploration is what is most important within the Zelda-series to me. In fact, isnt that what RPGs suffer from? In your typical J-RPG, you follow the story, and this story determines where you go to. I dont want a story order you around, i want to find my own way and THEN find out about a story. That´s why many little stories would be of a greater benefit for the Zelda-series imo.
MasterMFauli
Banned
UC1 said:
Zanto breaks Ganondorf´s neck, then it is shown how his trifoce of power disappears. He dies....forever. But because we have a split timeline, he exists in another dimension. Though i dont want to start a timeline-discussion here.
If you know what will happen but write in such a thread "no motion control", it´s a troll.
Amir0x said:
What? This?
Amir0x said:
Cause that didn't really explain why it's a better story. Aside from Ganon, you just talked about stuff you liked.
I especially don't get this part:
How did he do manage to do that? In OoT, you saw him mature as the story went along, and with that amazing moment pulling the master sword, well, haven't seen anything as exciting in any Zelda since. Not to mention Zelda's role was far better and more involved. And then there's the fact that you see the world you left in complete chaos after you warp in time. The whole cause and effect thing was done brilliantly.
I will agree with you on TP's story, though.
Fixed. Also, I'm not against cel shading. But how that cel shading is handled...
And as far as how Zelda should be next time, well I don't really care what they do with the series. Personally, I'd rather have Nintendo start work on the next console (after Wii) Zelda, and have it as a launch title (But with the 'hopefully' ugraded graphics). Though, if they don't do that, whatever. I don't mind seeing another cel shaded spinoff a la WW, but it'll be a good while before I can REALLY anticipate another Zelda.
A Black Falcon said:
Thanks.
A Black Falcon said:
You miss read that one, I just meant there have been too many items not used enough in Zelda games, most notably TP. I loved all of the items in TP but was pissed cause many were totally useless in the game world other than their specific dungeon. I was really pissed at the magic armor cause it looks really cool but I couldnt just wear it around and it was a rather lame concept depleting the rupees that wasnt ever needed cause the game was not hard at all.
I would like to see 4 maybe 5 swords, shields and armors. 3 of each would part of the main quest that are absolutely needed and then 1 or 2 that is just really awesome but hard as hell to get and are optional. But yeah too many items is a bad thing, too few is as well. TP was breaking the limits on items and it was only too many cause it failed to really utilize them all and felt a little lacking in equipment department.
A Black Falcon said:
For sure, LA is my second favorite Zelda after MM, I just used MM cause none of the other games have done it on such a large scale as it did and because it did the best job. Im hoping for even more connections and stronger ones than MM produced or any of the previous games as well.
A Black Falcon said:What would changing the setting of a dungeon really do? Dungeons aren't bad... and you do have a purpose: you want the item the boss is guarding.
As for dungeons I just meant that the purpose for going in them and objectives for some could be more pertinent to the plot rather than another objective on the list. Almost all past dungeons have had some "purpose," but most arent very dramatic or relevant. At the core of my dungeon desires is a backstory to them and more of a character given to them. Almost all of them have been really interesting, but the info and relevance was rather shallow for the most part.
You know, why was this place built, by who, what was it used for, why is it abandoned(if thats the case) and why has evil moved in(if they were not always there). Things of that nature. Really its closely tied to the overall plot and world.
Helzown said:
i dunno -- nintendo has a tendency to overstate these things. remember all the secrecy around gc mario kart and its REVOLUTIONARY NEW MECHANIC? iirc they were going to show it at e3 one year, and then pulled it for fear of being copied. i think mario sunshine was a similar case. i'll be surprised if wii zelda isn't essentially in oot's template. i would even expect the controls to be a wagglier take on tp's.
A Black Falcon
Member
Enduin said:
Ah. Yes, having real uses for all the items is good... or have items that can be used generally or for specific purposes (dual-purpose weapon or item items, like some of them are). If you just use it to solve a few specific puzzles and it has no other function, it's not as interesting an item.
Still, I'd say the answer is to improve the number of ways those items can be used or to increase the number of times you can use items (puzzles you can solve multiple ways, that can use some optional item if you have it and figure out how to use it but have a more complex way to do it otherwise, for instance?), not to cut back on the number of items.
... I wouldn't have minded at all if the fish and bug collection bags weren't in the game (in TP), though. Fish especially... fishing was only fun in LA, not in any of the 3d games... and that's because of how simple it was in LA. But that's just me... some people do like the fishing, which is obviously why it's there.
Whenever I think of MM though... that game annoyed me so much... sure, the NPCs are good, but you have to replace consumable items every time you reset, and have a time limit for dungeons, and always have to hurry because of the timer, and can't permanantly fix any of the areas because you need to beat the boss again every time to melt the snow or whatever, and the sidequests, while extensive, were often annoyingly vague... there's no way I'd finish the Anjou/Kafei quest without a guide...
Maybe that's unrelated, but... well, how about how the only lasting effect of doing a quest is the mark in your book? It's really frusterating to do something, help people, and have to immediately reset time, upon which time the problems all return just the way they were before you started... they had good ideas, but the time system was deeply flawed.
Yes, and I was responding that in these games the point of the dungeon is not the objective, really. The point of the dungeon is the dungeon itsself -- the act of exploring it, and the design of the dungeon, and its puzzles and challenges. That is what really makes the dungeon great... not the story explanation that sends you there. Though having a good reason to be there is good too, the independant qualities of the dungeon itsself are more important.
Oblivion said:
WW's story was great, though. I agree, it wasn't as great as OoT's, but it was great. The atmosphere of places like the underwater Hyrule, the King of Red Dragons... I agree that Link did not have as strong a defining moment as the OoT Link did, but still, the story was well done and had more detail than previous games in some ways. It wasn't a better plot than OoT, but it was more detailed, which was an advance in other ways... I would rank OoT's plot higher than WW's, but, especially as you near the end, WW's plot becomes quite interesting. Still though, OoT is definitely one of the defining moments for gaming, and while its story is somewhat simple, it is done so well that there is almost nothing negative I could say about it... the only thing I can think of offhand (related to some of what I said about MM) is that maybe they should have made it possible to unfreeze Zora's Domain. Eh, that's not too important.
As for Zelda's role, it certainly was stronger in OoT than in WW, but it was stronger in WW than in any of the REST of the (non-CDi) Zelda games, which is somewhat positive at least... (Oh, and if OoT and WW taught us one thing, it's that Zelda can only be kidnapped when she's revealed as a princess, not while disguised...
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