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How Sony can do disc DRM 100% right

S

sholvaco

Neo Member
How about a dual authentication approach which gives an option of:
-either registering your game with PSN which enables disc free play
-or not registering the game and instead require the game disc in the drive for authentication.

If you registered and then lent your game to a friend you wouldn't need to deactivate the game on the PSN, your friend would be able to play simply by having the disc in the drive.

Though a slight problem with above would be the inevitable abuse on the 2nd hand market where some SOB would sell a game without deactivating his copy, denying disc free play to the second owner.
 
P

partyphone

Banned
making this kind of system customer friendly would be fairly easy.

If your console is offline when you install the game it takes the license key and patiently waits until it is online to make a check. Every game box has a giant tamper evident seal on it warning you to not buy the game if the seal is broken.

The benefits of having the console online should be what you use to get people to hook it up not the threat of taking away their games.
 
I

IHaveCandy

Banned
dab0ne said:
Right, but if there is no record on the physical disc that it's been deactivated on my PS4 then what to stop it from installing on my brother's PS4 if I let him borrow it? We would both have the game then.
Click to expand...

The disc NFC tag itself changes. The change is on the disc, and logged on the primary PS4 and the "owner".
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
IHaveCandy said:
The disc NFC tag itself changes. The change is on the disc, and logged on the primary PS4 and the "owner".
Click to expand...
That seems too open to abuse. A static code is better. It has the downside of fully offline consoles being able to play them, but it won't be broke open.
 
D

dab0ne

Member
Ok, if you're like me you don't know what an NFC tag is. I thought it was part of the disk. It isn't. It's a magnetic strip that's powered by the NFC reader or device that is reading it. In this case the PS4 (potentially). Here is an article on what they are and how they work:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/nfc-tag.htm
 
D

Dizzy

Banned
To do it right......don't do it at all.


If they really want to use the HDD only, just have the game required to be in at all times like the 360 currently does.
 
G

GoofsterStud

Member
IHaveCandy said:
Sony has had a patent which uses an NFC tag to determine if a game has been used before. This could be used to block all used games, but could be used in a far more user-friendly way. Imagine Kaz Harai presenting it like this at E3:


"We've heard a lot of confusing about disc-based DRM lately, and we're here to set our record straight. PS4 is built to allow it's customers to have just as many rights as the PS3. We want every gamer around the world to be able to play PS4 in any living situation. We're using a breakthrough technology in NFC to allow this, but to also give gamers more options. Options that allow them to have the advantage of downloadable purchases, without having to sacrifice their data caps with 40 GB game downloads. "

"PS4 will install all games onto the PS4. By default, the game acts as key to play the game, like how it is today. However, if you wish to not have to do this, you can tell the PS4 to use the NFC tag to not require a disc check anymore. The NFC tag registers the game, and it will now no longer play on another system. You now do not need to put the disc in to play."

"But what about if you want to sell the game? What if you just want to let a friend borrow it? What if you want to give your game to your nephew? Ofcourse we've thought of this. The NFC chip is reversible. Simply reverse the process and de-authenticate the game being playable without the disc, and the NFC tag will now revert back to it's default state! We're giving you the choice. We've even embedded a watermark on the disc so anybody can easily identify if the game has already been NFC-tagged with a checkmark or "X". No online required."








Thoughts?
Click to expand...

If the PS4 can be played off line. None of this would work. There would be no "paper trail".
 
D

Dunan

Member
This is a terrible idea. It means that someone could sell their disc through eBay or otherwise privately, and "forget" to de-activate it, or pretend not to understand the process. If the price is low enough, it won't be worth it for the buyer to send the faulty disc back to the seller and the seller will have successfully scammed the buyer.

Just leave things the way they are and always have been. Seriously, why is it so important not to have to insert a disc into the console? It takes several seconds for the console to boot up and show those stupid safety warnings anyway -- just put the disc in during that interval.
 
D

dab0ne

Member
Dizzy said:
To do it right......don't do it at all.


If they really want to use the HDD only, just have the game required to be in at all times like the 360 currently does.
Click to expand...

I like where the OP is going but I like this^^ idea the best. It's a gaming console not a handheld. The convenience of not having to put a disc in isn't that important when I'm at my house. On the go it's nice but if I'm sitting on my couch I don't mind swapping discs.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
Dave Meltzer said:
I think it's fairly obvious that was shortsightedness rather than an intentional design decision.
Click to expand...
Regardless of the intent, all the publishers signed on to PS3 with that in place. And it's vastly worse than this suggestion.

Not that I think this will happen, to be clear. We'll be lucky if we keep what we have, let alone get a better deal next time around.
 
I

IHaveCandy

Banned
Dunan said:
This is a terrible idea. It means that someone could sell their disc through eBay or otherwise privately, and "forget" to de-activate it, or pretend not to understand the process. If the price is low enough, it won't be worth it for the buyer to send the faulty disc back to the seller and the seller will have successfully scammed the buyer.

Just leave things the way they are and always have been. Seriously, why is it so important not to have to insert a disc into the console? It takes several seconds for the console to boot up and show those stupid safety warnings anyway -- just put the disc in during that interval.
Click to expand...
Someone could "forget" to put the game in the package today.
 
A

AnbaLeumas

Banned
Sucks for the millions of people who will forget this or never know this and trade the game in without reversing the process unless the GameStop employees are forced to check for watermarks. But that can also go bad at the beginning when the employees aren't used to this process and forget to check for the watermark.

I wouldn't mind this if it worked flawlessly with no problems to gamers and retailers.
 
D

dab0ne

Member
IHaveCandy said:
Someone could "forget" to put the game in the package today.
Click to expand...

KNKWJHR.jpg
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
StuBurns said:
Regardless of the intent, all the publishers signed on to PS3 with that in place. And it's vastly worse than this suggestion.

Not that I think this will happen, to be clear. We'll be lucky if we keep what we have, let alone get a better deal next time around.
Click to expand...

Well there's a reason they changed their policy regarding it, isn't there?

I don't think any company is going to sign off a system whereby you can install a game to one system and play it on another too. But if the NFC tech works well enough there's definitely the possibility of trying a game to an account, and I think it'd be a really good idea.
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
The problem with this system is that you can buy game, install it, and then immediately sell/give it away without deactivating it on your end. You can continue playing the game that way, as long as the person you're selling to is fine with not being able to install.

I mean, you're right, there's no problem on the consumer's end, but given the above scenario I don't see Sony or publishers being excited about it. It allows two people to play a single copy of a game simultaneously. It's manufacturer endorsed piracy. There's nothing in it for them.
 
A

Almighty

Member
The best system is pretty much the one that currently exists a simple disk check. The thing I would change is just let people go for a longer period of time before the system needs to preform another disk check like a week or if you are being really generous a month. Quite frankly if putting in a disk once a week is too much hassle for most then there is really no way around linking it online to your account.
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
H_Prestige said:
The problem with this system is that you can buy game, install it, and then immediately sell/give it away without deactivating it on your end. You can continue playing the game for nearly free that way, as long as the person you're selling to is fine with not being able to install.

I mean, you're right, there's no problem on the consumer's end, but given the above scenario I don't see Sony or publishers being excited about it. It allows two people to play a single copy of a game simultaneously. It's manufacturer endorsed piracy. There's nothing in it for them.
Click to expand...

If the NFC tech works correctly you can disable a disc from running on another machine after its been associated with another account, apparently. So your scenario wouldn't happen. The second person would just be told the disc was associated to someone else.

The issue moreso is private reselling where someone just sells without deassociating his system with the disc and a guy ends up with a coaster.
 
P

Prelithe

Member
The major problem is the security. Because this is supposed to work in a fully offline scenario, it is pretty much guaranteed to be reversed engineered. All you need to do is intercept the data being passed to and from the NFC chip and learn the protocol, then walk into a gamestop and steal all the games.

A more complicated chip would then potentially need a power source which is obviously too expensive to bundle with each disc.
 
bryanee

bryanee

Member
I really don't see why MS and Sony don't just see the next gen out doing what they did this gen. All this shit will sort itself out when gaming is digital only and that will most likely happen with the PS5/Xbox Two.
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
Almighty said:
The best system is pretty much the one that currently exists a simple disk check. The thing I would change is just let people go for a longer period of time before the system needs to preform another disk check like a week or if you are being really generous a month. Quite frankly if putting in a disk once a week is too much hassle for most then there is really no way around linking it online to your account.
Click to expand...

For me the issue isn't putting discs in, it's having to bother storing them for years and years. I'd want a system where the disc can just be thrown away without impacting me at all.
 
N

NullPointer

Member
Dave Meltzer said:
For me the issue isn't putting discs in, it's having to bother storing them for years and years. I'd want a system where the disc can just be thrown away without impacting me at all.
Click to expand...
Same here.

The disk *IS* just a delivery mechanism. What I'm buying is usage of the software - so associating that software with my account for the duration of my ownership of that license is exactly what I'm looking for.

So what if the disk breaks.

but nor does this mean you need intrusive only checks. You only need to verify it once per install.

If this thread is about making suggestions that could solve the issue, my take is here.
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
Dave Meltzer said:
If the NFC tech works correctly you can disable a disc from running on another machine after its been associated with another account, apparently. So your scenario wouldn't happen. The second person would just be told the disc was associated to someone else.

The issue moreso is private reselling where someone just sells without deassociating his system with the disc and a guy ends up with a coaster.
Click to expand...

The moment you bring PSN accounts into the equation you need mandatory internet checks.

In my scenario one copy of a game can be played by two people. Person A can only play the installed game and person B can only play from the disc. I can't see Sony getting behind that.
 
V

Valnen

Member
big_erk said:
I don't have a problem with an online check.
Click to expand...

Neither do I honestly if it means I get both a box and the ability for full installs with no disc needed afterwards. After my PS3 laser died, the less that laser needs to see use the better. But I still want my boxes too so...
 
L

Linkified

Member
The preferred system for all these hardware companies is you must install games to HDD but must have the disk in the machine for authentication purposes. Oh wait you wouldn't like to keep the disk in the machine? Well if you pay us £9.99 we will give you a digital license so you don't need to keep the disk at all.
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
H_Prestige said:
The moment you bring PSN accounts into the equation you need mandatory internet checks.

In my scenario one copy of a game can be played by two people. Person A can only play the installed game and person B can only play from the disc. I can't see Sony getting behind that.
Click to expand...

Read up on the NFC tech. The idea, whether or not it can be done reliably or not I'm unsure, is a game can be installed to a system but in exchange tags the disc as "used" and won't work even on an offline machine.
 
A

Almighty

Member
Dave Meltzer said:
For me the issue isn't putting discs in, it's having to bother storing them for years and years. I'd want a system where the disc can just be thrown away without impacting me at all.
Click to expand...

Yeah and that's fine since that is pretty much what happened on the PC via Steam(though for me personally it more or less renders console moot), but if that is what people want then MS/Sony/Nintendo/who ever will have to be honest eventually and just say renting/lending/buying used is not an option unless you want to go though the platform owner. Because I don't see any workable solution to allow people to trade or what not independently and still go discless permanently.
 
I

IHaveCandy

Banned
Linkified said:
The preferred system for all these hardware companies is you must install games to HDD but must have the disk in the machine for authentication purposes. Oh wait you wouldn't like to keep the disk in the machine? Well if you pay us £9.99 we will give you a digital license so you don't need to keep the disk at all.
Click to expand...
$10 games for everybody, then.
 
D

Dave Meltzer

Banned
Almighty said:
Yeah and that's fine since that is pretty much what happened on the PC via Steam, but if that is what people want then MS/Sony/Nintendo/who ever will have to be honest eventually and just say renting/lending/buying used is not an option unless you want to go though the platform owner. Because I don't see any workable solution to allow people to trade or what not independently and still go discless permanently.
Click to expand...

I think a workable system is simply to require online but allow you to deactivate a CD Key. There's noting stopping MS doing that with their current system other than they don't want to do it.
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
Dave Meltzer said:
Read up on the NFC tech. The idea, whether or not it can be done reliably or not I'm unsure, is a game can be installed to a system but in exchange tags the disc as "used" and won't work even on an offline machine.
Click to expand...

That would eliminate any potential for abuse. But then you still have the issue of someone forgetting or not knowing about de-authenticating before selling the game.
 
N

NullPointer

Member
I think we'll keep having this argument until we have a recognized standard for transferring digital licenses. Thats the property we're buying here, and until we can actually treat it like our property, we're still living in an unregulated fog of 'whatever we can get away with now'.

Its inevitable.
 
H

H_Prestige

Banned
IHaveCandy said:
That's the point of the changing watermark.
Click to expand...

That wouldn't protect people from online sales. Someone receives game in the mail, checks the disc, and sees the X. Damn.

You're right, this would functionally be no different than receiving an empty box. But the latter only happens from scammers, not honest sellers.
 
Megatron

Megatron

Member
nbthedude said:
No, kill the used game market. Stab it in the heart. I believe in you giant corporations.

Drag the digital neanderthals into the 21st century and force them to accept the idea that the stuff you own is temporary like life itself and that they should spend their life and time thinking about something other than "mine, mine, mine forever." Experiences are meaningful. Stuff isn't. Force consumers to value the experience over the physical object. You paid for a movie ticket. Enjoy the show. Stop trying to own it forever.
Click to expand...

That option already exists for you. You can buy it off digitally. Stop trying to force your opinions and beliefs onto other people. We don't all have to behave the way you choose to.
 
A

Almighty

Member
Dave Meltzer said:
I think a workable system is simply to require online but allow you to deactivate a CD Key. There's noting stopping MS doing that with their current system other than they don't want to do it.
Click to expand...

Sure that would work, but it is why I also said without going though the platform holder as well. Because Microsoft or whoever could allow the buy/selling/trading of keys if they wanted to. The problem is that it seems people are not happy with the idea of Microsoft sticking its fingers into the pie.

The way I see it Microsoft better have some nice carrots to go with this DRM stick they just pulled out. I don't see it working if the only benefit to the consumer from this is no disc required.
 
S

SneakyStephan

Banned
It just seems like a stepping stone for what microsoft is doing...
Ease you into this bullshit is just as retarded

The consumer guilt is strong on this forum
 
U

Ushae

Banned
Willy Wanka said:
Doing it 100% right would be keeping it as it is now.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the publisher isn't happy with the current model of distribution involving used games. MS and Sony need to do something about it, otherwise the industry suffers as a result, hence all our favorite studios shutting down.
 
A

Almighty

Member
Ushae said:
The problem is that the publisher isn't happy with the current model of distribution involving used games. MS and Sony need to do something about it, otherwise the industry suffers as a result, hence all our favorite studios shutting down.
Click to expand...

Unless the industry stops the production value arms race it is in for a world of pain anyway. As it doesn't look like the market can support the number of massive budget titles the industry seems dead set on producing each year.
 
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