Support NeoGAF

[01011001]

I think it's retarded a total ban or to consider loot boxes gambling because you don't earn real money from these games. And the ones where you can earn real money (like poker or casino games) are already properly regulated as gambling.

you might wanna look up CS:GO and DOTA2 skin sites

 

[Paasei]

Regulate them by not having them. You already pay more than enough for a game.
For F2P games I think MW and LoL (if that's still the same when I played it 10 years ago). Only cosmetics and purchasable by playing enough. I think I got 3 battlepasses just by play the former enough to gather the coins.

Forgot to add: Don't make them sellable to others.

 

[yurinka]

you might wanna look up CS:GO and DOTA2 skin sites

These two exceptions aren't representative of thousands of games that work in a totally different way, in the way people is talking about.

 

[01011001]

These two exceptions aren't representative of thousands of games that work in a totally different way, in the way people is talking about.

it still stands that these are completely unregulated and you can literally win money in them

 

[yurinka]

it still stands that these are completely unregulated and you can literally win money in them

Valve said they didn't want pay to earn in Steam. How do this work in these two games? How do the games pays you money?

Should other games with random rewards like all the Super Mario Bros games when breaking lootbox crates also be regulated with this?

 

[Orbital2060]

With regards to Diablo there are no lootboxes in the game, and all of the offers for crests and materials you can buy state clearly what you get if you purchase any of them. With the exact amount of what you get.

So anyone trying to buy their way to more legendary gems in the hopes of getting a 5-star gem are still going to have the dice roll their way at the end of each elder rift. Whether you have 1 legendary crests from the pauper pass or spend thousands of dollars to buy a thousand crests. You still need to deal with the rng on the loot table. Thats why youre seeing streamers spending a lot of money and claim they still didnt get a 5-star gem.

The only way to safely buy the gem you want is if it is on the market house, because you can buy eternal orbs for real money, and trade those over to platinum which is the market currency. That may cost a lot, to buy the orbs and trade to platinum. But who does that? Things may change here though, so Im looking out for the same crap that happened with the d3 auction house and having to buy gear and weapons to progress beyond the lower to mid difficulties. But thats not the case though, there are only gems on sale in the market place. And you can craft them with a bit of patience. And luck, of course. I dont expect to get everything I want, in fact I was still farming for some legendary gems years into diablo 3 so thats part of the game design imo (also for World of Warcraft where I have few items that never dropped after hundreds of runs through the same raid or dungeon). Thats just how it goes sometimes, and Im not gonna start paying for any gems or gear. Thats ridiculous.

So the only way to regulate the mtx in Diablo Immortal would be to put a ban on bosses dropping RNG loot in games. Yes, an actual regulated ban against monsters in videogames dropping randomised loot. Thats what you have to do to get at Diablos ecoonmy, because elsewhere they are not breaking any rules with regards to not knowing what you pay for.

There is no gacha mechanic in the game, and there are no lootboxes you can buy. Everything that can be purchased it is clearly stated what it is.

 

[01011001]

Valve said they didn't want pay to earn in Steam. How do this work in these two games? How do the games pays you money?

you can create an account on one of many Skin trading sites that are connected to Valve's API, and from there you can showcase your skins.

in the case of at least CS:GO (not sure how DOTA2 items work) these skins are almost like NFTs, basically a proto NFT with a unique signature, unique damage value and unique pattern placement.

some skins are extremely rare and sell for thousands of dollars. pattern placement and damage values can influence how valuable the skin is. a rare patter with a good looking placement can go for thousands.

Should other games with random rewards like all the Super Mario Bros games when breaking lootbox crates also be regulated with this?

holy false equivalency batman! also item boxes in mario games are not random lol.

I feel stupid that I have to explain this because I feel like I'm talking to a 3yo child at this point... apparently thats the level of discourse this forum often devolves to... but you can't get addicted to throw money away on free in game items in a game you already own

 

[01011001]

With regards to Diablo there are no lootboxes in the game, and all of the offers for crests and materials you can buy state clearly what you get if you purchase any of them. With the exact amount of what you get.

it has loot boxes, it simply tries to obfuscate that fact by making the opening of said lootboxes be a ridiculously easy to beat dungeon that needs no mechnaical skill or strategy.

hence why it was immediately banned in the Netherlands because they don't fuck around with such obvious attempts to sell disguised lootboxes

 

[-Amon-]

Everything that masks the real amount of money you have to, or can spend on a game should not be permitted by the law.

You spend a sum to buy a game.

Or you send a monthly fee to play it.

Everything else is not, in my opinion, an honest way to threat a customer.

 

[nominedomine]

Why do people simply not smoke?

Exactly.

 

[Orbital2060]

it has loot boxes, it simply tries to obfuscate that fact by making the opening of said lootboxes be a ridiculously easy to beat dungeon that needs no mechnaical skill or strategy.

hence why it was immediately banned in the Netherlands because they don't fuck around with such obvious attempts to sell disguised lootboxes

Thats exactly my point. The «lootbox» in question is whatever the rift guardian drops. I can understand it where games sell actual lootboxes, like Overwatch used to do. Those were literal boxes of loot.

But you cant have governments regulate what loot monsters drop in a game. Thats just moving the goalposts out of the playing field, and placing them somewhere the developers arent even playing. You cant tell developers how to design the loot tables on every monster in an RPG and then demand they go public with those numbers. Whether a random goblin drops a +3 battle axe, or a recipe for a potion. You cant do that. But I would like to see someone try.

 

[Holammer]

Regulate it as gambling should take care of the problem. Like 90%+ of it.
But why not take a page from Tobacco packaging warning messages? Have 40% of the check out screen taken up by a warning and a link to a page detailing the odds.

 

[Clear]

Pay-to-win is now a proven model for massive profiteering, so there's no way the genie is going back in the bottle.

All legislation is going to do is force a bunch of new workarounds and add new bureaucratic hoops to be jumped through.

Only sane thing I can think of is to establish recurrent weekly/monthly spending caps that can only be surpassed through properly regulated opt-outs.

 

[01011001]

Thats exactly my point. The «lootbox» in question is whatever the rift guardian drops. I can understand it where games sell actual lootboxes, like Overwatch used to do. Those were literal boxes of loot.

But you cant have governments regulate what loot monsters drop in a game. Thats just moving the goalposts out of the playing field, and placing them somewhere the developers arent even playing. You cant tell developers how to design the loot tables on every monster in an RPG and then demand they go public with those numbers. Whether a random goblin drops a +3 battle axe, or a recipe for a potion. You cant do that. But I would like to see someone try.

it's actually not moving any goal posts whatsoever.
the transaction is identical.

you buy an item with real money that grands you a random chance of desirable "loot" of varying rarety

that is easily defined. what happens bewteen you buying the item and you getting the loot ouf of said item is irrelevant.
the only thing that should count is the initial transaction and the outcome.

the initial transaction is you buying something and the outcome is you get items of randomised rarity because you bought that item.

that is what should be regulated, and only this.
as soon as you can spend money for a random chance of getting a rare item, that is functionally identical to buying a lootbox.

Poker after all is still legally seen as gambling almost anywhere on the planet, and that has a skill component to it... so if that is functionally identical to a slot machine the eyes of the regulatory bodies then what Diablo does should also be seen as a form of lootbox

 

[STARSBarry]

Thats exactly my point. The «lootbox» in question is whatever the rift guardian drops. I can understand it where games sell actual lootboxes, like Overwatch used to do. Those were literal boxes of loot.

But you cant have governments regulate what loot monsters drop in a game. Thats just moving the goalposts out of the playing field, and placing them somewhere the developers arent even playing. You cant tell developers how to design the loot tables on every monster in an RPG and then demand they go public with those numbers. Whether a random goblin drops a +3 battle axe, or a recipe for a potion. You cant do that. But I would like to see someone try.

Oh you can... you can make it so any item such as a token you purchase for real world money or purchase with a currency that is linked to real world money cannot effect drop chance. Because that can only effect players negatively unless they pay up, its not that you get an improved drop chance if you pay up, it's that regular drop chances are nerfed unless you pay, that's how they design them.

They can still have those items, but they then need to be earned ingame, not by paying.

Alongside a ban on regular lootboxes of course, the fact other countries that already regulate and ban lootboxes immediately recognised diablo immortals dungeons as such and banned it show that it can be done legislatively and has done already.

 

[KiteGr]

Law:

1. The total cost of microtansactions per user cannot exceed twice the retail price of the product.
2. Very often discounts of the product will effect it's considered retail price when calculating it's microtansaction limits.
3. If the product's price is lower than the fixed price of 20% of the most common new product price in the platform it's being sold to, then when calculating the maximum microtansactions, the above lowest fixed price should be considered the base retail price of the product.
4. Should microtansactions are of a repeatable nature, the 1rst law applies as if each microtansaction, including the non-repeatable ones, can be purchased once.
5. Should many microtansactions are of a repeatable nature and offer the same countable good in different quantities, then only the highest costing quantity should be counted for the 1rst law.
6. Should there are microtansactions of a repeatable nature, the upper spending limit of the 1rst law should be enforced per user of the product for evey 6 months after purchase.
7. Should there are microtansactions of a repeatable nature, the developer or published should keep track of the first law being followed by the user, and prevent further purchases if necessary.
8. Should microtansactions are of a repeatable nature, their use and source code should be given to the gambling committee for evaluation, and have gambling restrictions applied to them if necessary.

Done.

 

[Dontkidyourselfjimmy]

Also get rid of in game currency's that obfuscate the actual monetary cost of items.

 

[Orbital2060]

it's actually not moving any goal posts whatsoever.
the transaction is identical.

you buy an item with real money that grands you a random chance of desirable "loot" of varying rarety

that is easily defined. what happens bewteen you buying the item and you getting the loot ouf of said item is irrelevant.
the only thing that should count is the initial transaction and the outcome.

the initial transaction is you buying something and the outcome is you get items of randomised rarity because you bought that item.

that is what should be regulated, and only this.
as soon as you can spend money for a random chance of getting a rare item, that is functionally identical to buying a lootbox.

Poker after all is still legally seen as gambling almost anywhere on the planet, and that has a skill component to it... so if that is functionally identical to a slot machine the eyes of the regulatory bodies then what Diablo does should also be seen as a form of lootbox

I see what you are seeing, but I dont agree that you should regulate the randomised loot to this degree. The legendary crest guarantees a legendary gem, thats not an issue. You just dont know which one you get. And I think thats fine, simply because its more fun that way. I dont need to get every item in a game. It makes getting something really rare a special moment. So Im good with the way things are on legendary crests and elder rifts. I think Magic Find also works here, and they would have to include that as a qualifier in the regulations. It could get real messy, to the point I would rather not play the game at all because there is almost no game left to enjoy.

Oh you can... you can make it so any item such as a token you purchase for real world money or purchase with a currency that is linked to real world money cannot effect drop chance. Because that can only effect players negatively unless they pay up, its not that you get an improved drop chance if you pay up, it's that regular drop chances are nerfed unless you pay, that's how they design them.

They can still have those items, but they then need to be earned ingame, not by paying.

Alongside a ban on regular lootboxes of course, the fact other countries that already regulate and ban lootboxes immediately recognised diablo immortals dungeons as such and banned it show that it can be done legislatively and has done already.

Hearthstone is still allowed in the Netherlands - a game which has literal lootboxes in the shape of card packs. But hey thats legal.

I think if I knew exactly what legendary gem Id get in a rift it would make the game much less fun to play. Im good with using the crests as they are now and crossing my fingers for a good roll.

I just found this player-compilated table here. I dont know how accurate they are, but these are the drop chances we are talking about.

 

[Spukc]

Just but a big fat fucking 18+ gambling tag on the box.

 

[Akuji]

Every game must Show the Total amount spend after purchase.
After 1000€/£/$ the customer is able to acess everything in the Shop for free.
Per Account.

 

[STARSBarry]

Hearthstone is still allowed in the Netherlands - a game which has literal lootboxes in the shape of card packs. But hey thats legal.

I think rather than being out right banned they have to follow strict regulations to be allowed, one is to display every item and the drop rates of those items within the box/pack and a few other things.

If they do that then your allowed to have them since there "regulated" if you refuse to do so then they ban your title within the country until you comply, its one of the reasons FIFA ultimate team was allowed again in 22 because they complied with the requirements.

I believe people want things to be harsher though so they can be stomped out and I'm inclined to agree, the only thing they have done for gaming is made the average player feel less rewarded if they don't spent.

 

[Kataploom]

Stop having your card data put in your console or unattended where your kids can spend with no limit. That's how you regulate them without asking for more political control

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

1. Age restriction;
2. Refund options for parents;
3. 2FA mandatory.

I usually don't like government regulation of everything, but I think I would be okay if companies at least try to show some restrain in how they operate in these games.

 

[DryvBy]

if it's gambling then restrict those games to 18+ year olds (or whatever age you're allowed to gamble in your country). require proof of age (passport/driving license). offer the option to disable/hide them in game. require confirmations/2fa when purchasing. if someone is found to be under age then ban their account. that's how it works with other kinds of gambling so fair is fair.

personally, i don't have a problem with things the way they are. i am an adult, responsible with my money, and control what i spend. but some people can't do that so i wouldn't mind some regulation. just don't get rid of it altogether.

I don't get the idea of making a game 18+ will do anything. When I was a 10-17, throwing a rated R, an M, or a PA sticker anywhere made.me want the product more.

 

[TheDreadLord]

I don't see the logic in regulating this. Ok, if you want to protect kids you can make mandatory some sort of 2FA or age restriction. Other than that, the consumer is the best one to "regulate" this is with its own wallet.

 

[Fbh]

The only sort of regulation this needs should be targeted at kids.
Lootboxes, gacha mechanics and any other form of microtransaction that basically amounts to gambling should get a game an instant M/Pegi18 rating. Maybe have some sort of age verification system tied to an Id number or something as well as some mandatory 2FA for every transaction.

 

[Soulja]

Get rid of them or at least make the cost of them reasonable. Isn't it roughly £20 for an ultimate pack in fifa? It's fucking ridiculous. I don't mind having some form of microtransactions, such as skins but the cost for them is unreal. They should be a £2 or so each and that's it. How can developers put some much effort into a game and release it with a shit load of content for about £50 but then charge £15+ for content that costs nothing/very little to develop. It's crazy.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Amiga your forgot to add: "Do nothing. I am responsible for my actions."

Also...I don't know...monitor what your kids spend.

Apple Ask To Buy

I kind of lean towards this as well but companies need to have some kind of restraint. They shouldn't allow so much do fast or without some kind of roadblock.

I'm thinking of the adult that literally is unable to stop themselves.

 

[yurinka]

you can create an account on one of many Skin trading sites that are connected to Valve's API, and from there you can showcase your skins.

in the case of at least CS:GO (not sure how DOTA2 items work) these skins are almost like NFTs, basically a proto NFT with a unique signature, unique damage value and unique pattern placement.

some skins are extremely rare and sell for thousands of dollars. pattern placement and damage values can influence how valuable the skin is. a rare patter with a good looking placement can go for thousands.

Ok thanks. I assume this is allowed/supported by Valve, since to transfer your game item from your Steam account to the other one I assume can only be made by the dev or platform holder (Valve). Or what people sell instead of only their game item is their whole Steam account?

holy false equivalency batman! also item boxes in mario games are not random lol.

I feel stupid that I have to explain this because I feel like I'm talking to a 3yo child at this point... apparently thats the level of discourse this forum often devolves to... but you can't get addicted to throw money away on free in game items in a game you already own

In terms of game design, psychology and regulation to break a Super Mario crate box it's a random reward drop, exactly like loot dropped by enemies in other games or loot boxes you get by playing. Or to win in a poker videogame where you can't earn real money.

In terms of game design, psychology and regulation if it gives you real money as reward is when things change and it's considered gambling, like in the casino/poker games where you can earn real money. They have a super strict regulation and paperwork in some countries for devs (I did work on a poker game where we planned to include being able to earn money and another one that was going to have an internal market where players were going to be able to sell each other items using real money but removed these features and kept them as normal games because all these regulations and paperwork involved).

 

[Jinzo Prime]

$25 Rift Simulator

Gamble And Upgrade Diablo Immortal Legendary Gems for free

dimi777.github.io

This Diablo Immortal gem cost simulator should be used as a visual aid to show lawmakers how predatory these microtransations can be.

 

[daveonezero]

None. Government shouldn't be involved. Be an adult and take responsibility for your own actions.

We can also remove traffic lights, they are so annoying.

There is an argument that speed limits and stop signs increase accidents.