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[partyphone]

I would love the series if it stuck with the ridiculous tone. the new box tech and fulton shenanigans in 5 are hilarious. but then it has to be all serious and grimdark and edgy.

if you like that kind of thing that's great. you shouldn't be defensive of it. complaining about the bad writing in MGS is trite at this point since it's on par with video game writing in general and I'm not sure what can actually be done about improving. I'll just keep reading books if I want good writing.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Even if everyone would agree with that, it's obvious that the dialogue is supposed to be really bad compared to other games. At least that's what it comes across to me.

I do not agree with that. I think Kojima intends it to be good writing and just fails at it.

Yes it does.

Metal Gear is top notch. Metal Gear's VA is outstanding and better than even some of the later games in the series.

No it doesn't. It's like comparing two turds. Even if one turd is slightly less gross, it's still a turd. Video game writing by and large is horrible. I also didn't say anything about the voice acting. I said the dialogue is bad. Not the way it's spoken.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The dynamic in the scene is decidedly different from the one that usually occurs during rape. Neither Chico or Paz are in positions of power and both are victims of coercion during the act. Chico actually comes off as more traumatized by it than Paz.

And how does this make it "not strictly rape"? That both were raped doesn't make Paz "not being strictly raped"...

 

[RoninChaos]

I always see people say video game dialogue is bad, that the stories are bad, etc. But is that in comparison to other games or something like novels? It seems to be a common theme around here. What gives?

I do not agree with that. I think Kojima intends it to be good writing and just fails at it.

No it doesn't. It's like comparing two turds. Even if one turd is slightly less gross, it's still a turd. Video game writing by and large is horrible. I also didn't say anything about the voice acting. I said the dialogue is bad. Not the way it's spoken.

Case in point.

So what are you comparing this to? Other games? Or other story telling mediums?

 

[kingkaiser]

The one thing I never liked about Metal Gear Solid are the occasionally braindead dialogues.

"Can love bloom on the battlefield" and especially "The only winners in war are the people" made me cringe hard.

Like written by a twelve year old who experienced war only in manga and now thinks to know everything about it.

 

[jroc74]

I had come in here with a majorly impassioned, nostalgia driven rant about just how WRONG OP is...but I deleted it.

This game is one that hasn't aged all that great. It's almost 20 years old. But, I also feel like the OP is approaching it as if the game had been released more recently. The climate in that time, from someone who was in middle school during the hype cycle and release, was way different. There were ambitious games coming out for PSX, just that year alone saw RE2, Gran Turismo, Mega Man Legends, and Oddworld: Abe's Exodus among many many others. Looking at just RE2 and Mega Man Legends for a second, they were also poorly voice acted (a symptom of the time, hardware limitations, disc space limitations), they have control schemes that don't quite hold up to scrutiny from a 2015 perspective, and they are at times a departure from what they're advertised as.

This game was significant because it was ruthlessly ambitious. The writing, the voice acting, the themes touched upon, the cutscenes, the cinematic nature of said cutscenes...this game literally is foundational to many third-person, narrative driven works. When you say it's objectively bad, you're approaching this from 2015, and I get that. However, from someone who has played it at launch, and nearly every few years since, the game's mechanics were excellent then, and understandably have decayed since. My thoughts are simple: if you're going to play a game more than 10+ years old, try to remember the way games were then. Especially if you're planning on posting about the game...that way people like myself don't burn you to the ground.

I was gonna do something similar in both cases. I was gonna post I stopped reading the OP here:

I thought I would begin with Metal Gear Solid as I imagine the NES games are too frustrating to play in 2015.

to post this: If you started playing video games back then...I dont think an NES game is frustrating today, if anything its more simple to play. IMO.

But yea....you gotta look at it in the perspective of when it came out. Some games do age better but given the scope of MGS at the time....there is a reason this game and FF 7 caused many to pick up a PS 1.

I still consider Mario 64 the best without even playing 3D World yet...lol.

I have my issues with how the thread was made instead of it's content, but let me say a few things:



This tells me you didn't bothered learning the game. You can complete almost all rooms with stealth and the game really only forces you to enter the alarm state once.

The Last part of the game, disc 2, has only one or two boss (Vulcan Raven and helicopter) before the batles against metal gear and liquid.

You are not forced to shoot, you probably just put yourself in situation which shooting became the easier way.



This is a stealth game and the shooting was horrible, but should not be a problem if you do not use it that much.




MGS2 onwards, the gameplay got a lot better, but I doubt this is a series for you.

This too. When I see certain complaints about current games that I completed I know the person just played it a specific way instead of trying different approaches. Or based on what they did early on made the game play a certain way later: not finding items, weapons, etc.

 

[RevolverRoden]

Some people get it, while other's say one or two things...

"It's weird"

"very long cutscenes"

That has been the basic consensus of MGS by the modern day crowd since MGS4 was released. A lot of MGS fans from years ago saw this whole complaint being born around the games.

It's the same with DBZ. Ever since "Over 9000" came out, you had all these fans using it out of nowhere. I never said that when I was watching the show and dying my hair gold. It's just gotten annoying hearing these modern day complaints.

I wouldn't associate DBZ with that had not modern day people taken it to that extent. Modern day gamers are doing the same thing. It's a real opinion, but it's driving us older fans crazy because it's annoying as sin.

You're entitled to an opinion, but the title to this thread is BS to me.

Yoooo. I've been trying to say this for years but was never able to word it well. This is the best post ever.

 

[partyphone]

I always see people say video game dialogue is bad, that the stories are bad, etc. But is that in comparison to other games or something like novels? It seems to be a common theme around here. What gives?

literally everything else with dialogue. novels, movies, TV shows, plays.

there are obviously bad examples of all these things but the percentage of quality writing for video games is well below the average for the other mediums. it's a hard problem to solve and most publishers refuse to spend money on it.

 

[DoktorEvil]

I always see people say video game dialogue is bad, that the stories are bad, etc. But is that in comparison to other games or something like novels? It seems to be a common theme around here. What gives?

I dunno, but there are large masses who are buying final fantasy, resident evil, and metal gear games in droves, so apparently awkward dialogue isn't stopping people from enjoying those games.

I think people expect games to be everything like The Last of Us now and expect games to match that kind of writing/dialogue.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I always see people say video game dialogue is bad, that the stories are bad, etc. But is that in comparison to other games or something like novels? It seems to be a common theme around here. What gives?



Case in point.

So what are you comparing this to? Other games? Or other story telling mediums?

Storytelling in other mediums.

 

[Coffee Dog]

The one thing I never liked about Metal Gear Solid are the occasionally braindead dialogues.

"Can love bloom on the battlefield" and especially "The only winners in war are the people" made me cringe hard.

Like written by a twelve year old who experienced war only in manga and now thinks to know everything about it.

Why do you think that those lines are anything more than entertaining cheese?

You remember that otacon pissed himself in a locker and made a joke about anime right before these things are said right?

 

[weekev]

So 26 page thread from something that appears to be trolling. Does OP win a prize?

 

[metareferential]

OP would be right if talking about MGS4. That game's story is crap and dialogues are even worse. And don't get me started on that stupid beast and beauty unit. XD

Still, the game is fun.

And the original MGS is fucking awesome in every conceivable way.

 

[Pinko Marx]

And how does this make it "not strictly rape"? That both were raped doesn't make Paz "not being strictly raped"...

The very next statement I made after the one you originally quoted was me saying that I was splitting hairs when it came to the definition as it pertains to the scene. Meaning the distinction of the difference in power between the scene and what normally occurs during such a heinous act doesn't make much of a difference as far as it being rape or not.
It's certainly rape, I just wanted to point out that there are a few more layers to it and it wasn't just a man forcing himself upon a woman.

 

[Kindekuma]

The one thing I never liked about Metal Gear Solid are the occasionally braindead dialogues.

"Can love bloom on the battlefield"

Like written by a twelve year old who experienced war only in manga and now thinks to know everything about it.

You take that back!

 

[Screaming Meat]

But, uh...it is. It is both of those things. It's also extremely inelegant with it's want for a more sophisticated audience, covered as it is by silly nonsense masquerading as a socio-political thriller with military jargon thrown in for good measure.

There is no way that Kojima can legitimately be described as a "hack" in the standard definition of the word. He's hardly dull or unoriginal, is he? He's considered (rightly) one of gaming's unique voices. There are no developers like him right now and no games like Metal Gear. Perhaps your understanding of the term "hack" is different...?

MGS2 is an (admittedly inelegant) post-modern dissection of gaming and the nature of reality in the Information Age. That's a pretty broad scope for a "hack". It used the game's advertising, hype machine, and the player themselves as part of the game and to make a remarkably prescient point in a way that can't quite be achieved in any other medium. It was an astoundingly brave experiment for a hugely anticipated AAA title and - with the current climate of game development - I fear that we'll never see anything quite like it again.

You may not think it worked or even like it, but you can at least respect the guy for trying, surely?

 

[Noyemi K]

I wish they'd have let him make another Policenauts or something but MGS is fine.

 

[Johndoey]

I dunno, but there are large masses who are buying final fantasy, resident evil, and metal gear games in droves, so apparently awkward dialogue isn't stopping people from enjoying those games.

I think people expect games to be everything like The Last of Us now and expect games to match that kind of writing/dialogue.

Why should we hold games to lower standards then other media? They are products and in a functioning system products are critiqued so they can be improved.

 

[TheBowen]

The game that got me into stealth was Splinter Cell Blacklist. Since then I've played Dishonored and the Arkham games. Nothing has topped Blacklist though in terms of pure stealth.

Arkham. A good stealth game. aha


you're comparing games released in the last 3 years to a game that is almost 17 years old. Come on OP.

MGS V looks pretty shit as well but can't say much yet as I've not played the game, here's to hoping the girl is able to get some clothes in the game and it's not all set in the fucking desert.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with how Paz & Chico are handled in Ground Zeroes besides the fact that they become victims but at least Paz gets to perform a heroic sacrifice. It's not like the rape was in your face, how was it mis-handled?

 

[MichaelFassbender]

There is no way that Kojima can legitimately be described as a "hack" in the standard definition of the word. He's hardly dull or unoriginal, is he? He's considered (rightly) one of gaming's unique voices. There are no developers like him right now and no games like Metal Gear. Perhaps your understanding of the term "hack" is different...?

MGS2 is an (admittedly inelegant) post-modern dissection of gaming and the nature of reality in the Information Age. That's a pretty broad scope for a "hack". It used the game's advertising, hype machine, and the player themselves as part of the game and to make a remarkably prescient point. It was an astoundingly brave experiment for a hugely anticipated AAA title and - with the current climate of game development - I fear that we'll never see anything quite like it again.

You may not think it worked or even like it, but you can at least respect the guy for trying, surely?

Like I said, I have no qualms with the gameplay itself. The series does well in that respect. But all the trappings around it make for a product that seems to trip on it's own feet and then jump up and yell "TADA!"

After the first few times, it stops being funny and just becomes tiresome.

 

[JobenNC]

The one thing I never liked about Metal Gear Solid are the occasionally braindead dialogues.

"Can love bloom on the battlefield" and especially "The only winners in war are the people" made me cringe hard.

Like written by a twelve year old who experienced war only in manga and now thinks to know everything about it.

I feel like you're trying to tell me love CAN'T bloom on the battlefield and I can't accept that.

 

[brau]

You take that back!

MGS has some pretty bad writing tbh Kinde.... gotta be realistic. Kojima... like anything else worth its money.. gets better with time, and his writing is no different. Even tho we still get quirks like "They played us like a damn fiddle!"

 

[aeolist]

I dunno, but there are large masses who are buying final fantasy, resident evil, and metal gear games in droves, so apparently awkward dialogue isn't stopping people from enjoying those games.

I think people expect games to be everything like The Last of Us now and expect games to match that kind of writing/dialogue.

i think the point is that games can emphasize different things. nobody expects super hexagon to have riveting dialogue, but when metal gear spends painfully long periods of time making you listen to characters talk at each other you can expect the game to be critiqued for it.

 

[mingo]

I only enjoyed Twin Snakes and Peace Walker out of the main games. I have weird taste apparently. I will probably still buy TPP tho.

 

[Sky Chief]

I wish they'd have let him make another Policenauts or something but MGS is fine.

I'm not sure if it's the fan translation or what but Policenauts is one of the best written games I have ever played. The dialog is so gritty and awesome.

This is also something that I always wonder about complaints of how cheesy the dialog in MGS is. Obviously, all the games have cooky elements but how much of the cheesiness is due to translation from one language to another?

 

[Funyarinpa]

Finally someone that agrees with me on this.

I feel you OP, couldn't finish the game.

 

[The Smoking Bun]

I only enjoyed Twin Snakes and Peace Walker out of the main games. I have weird taste apparently. I will probably still buy TPP tho.

The two worst games of the canon? Seriously? Those have possibly the dumbest moments.

Also, people should really watch this GameTrailers Retrospective of the franchise to understand why people hold it in such high regard. Though I suppose the series hasn't evolved to meet modern sensibilities and hence comes off as archaic or offensive at times.

 

[anotherVegan]

There's always Twin Snakes that addresses some of the dated gameplay mechanics.

Spoiler

*runs*

 

[jroc74]

Going back and reading some of the response....hilarious. Too many to pick some favorites.

The mixtape one and the wishing pox on the family just stand out for right now....

 

[Ganzlinger]

26 pages in one day lol

 

[SnowFlakeCake]

Goodness how did I miss this thread, could not agree with you more OP. Story makes no sense, gameplay is boring and that makes for a bad combination. MGS V looks pretty shit as well but can't say much yet as I've not played the game, here's to hoping the girl is able to get some clothes in the game and it's not all set in the fucking desert.

 

[BulletBees]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, OP.

 

[davepoobond]

You must be great at parties

 

[Screaming Meat]

Like I said, I have no qualms with the gameplay itself. The series does well in that respect. But all the trappings around it make for a product that seems to trip on it's own feet and then jump up and yell "TADA!"

After the first few times, it stops being funny and just becomes tiresome.

That's your perogative, of course.

I simply think it's unfair to call Kojima of all people a "hack", just as it's unfair to describe something as layered, considered and indisputably daring as MGS2 (out of all the games in the series!) as "faux-deep".

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Nothing has changed. The first Metal Gear games were clunky and weird too.

Spoiler

(I still love them.)

 

[damien1928]

Plz close this.

 

[mingo]

The two worst games of the canon? Seriously? Those have possibly the dumbest moments.

Also, people should really watch this GameTrailers Retrospective of the franchise to understand why people hold it in such high regard. Though I suppose the series hasn't evolved to meet modern sensibilities and hence comes off as archaic or offensive at times.

Yeah... I dunno. I loved Peace Walker on the PSP, not even the HD version lol. Didn't enjoy 2,3 or 4 but i did finish them tho. Maybe cause i was shit at them!

 

[MagnesD3]

Mgs is the second best video game franchise ever, second only to Zelda. The Op seems to just have bad tastes.

 

[Glass Shark]

MGS is dumb anime nonsense and if you go into it expecting that you might have a good time.

 

[kewlmyc]

I liked 1 a lot (played it 2 years ago). Enjoyed it, but when I tried to play MGS2 recently, I just couldn't get into it for some reason. Something about the new controls didn't sit well with me. I'll go back and try again eventually, but something about holding down the square button to do everything annoys me.

 

[onepiecefan]

Lol, this thread.

 

[NeOak]

Why would dialogue have anything to do with this? Dialogue has existed for thousands of years. You can't say a game gets a pass on bad dialogue because it's from 1998.

You're not only ignoring the other things he said, but you also are evaluating a 1998 game using today's standards.

Back then, it was 3 programmers, 1 director and 2 art guys with maybe one for sound doing the whole game.

This shows that your so called "opinion" is really "MGS sucks because it's old and doesn't meet 2015 AAA standards"

But then again, you're using Blacklist as your introduction to stealth... smh

 

[Hibiki Kurosawa]

it gets even dumber


There are some great themes and ideas in each game

Sometimes the story gets into the "donnie darko as an adult" territory of "I was 16 and this is my favorite movie oops I thought about a thing for more than 10 seconds and its' actually kind of stupid"

edit: i'm a fan and most things about MGS to me are "yeah that is pretty stupid but oh well"

the voice acting was between shit like RE and even FFX so it's pretty impressive even if hater has sounded like a fucking goober since day 1

Well that's reassuring... I promised my friend I'd get through the whole series eventually because he loves it so much. Doesn't matter though, the gameplay is good enough, I just don't look for to the endless cutscenes. And like you said there are some decebt themes and ideas I guess, I can see that in the first one. They're just not presented very well.

 

[Sushigod7]

I think you need to play more than just the oldest game to have a opinion of the series. Its silly at times its serious at times but how it all comes together is amazing. How characters are intertwined etc.

 

[lightchris]

I do not agree with that. I think Kojima intends it to be good writing and just fails at it.

A misunderstanding, maybe. What I wanted to say was that OP was comparing MGS to other games, so according to him the vast majority of games have much better writing than MGS.

 

[MichaelFassbender]

That's your prerogative, of course.

I simply think it's unfair to call Kojima of all people a "hack", just as it's unfair to describe something as layered, considered and indisputably daring as MGS2 (out of all the games in the series!) as "faux-deep".

That's cool if you do, man. For me, all of that equates to not very much in the long run, and I think a lot of it might just be that it's not written for a western audience. Postmodernism is something that requires a lot of deftness, and with the added burden of translation, it oftentimes can end up being clumsy to its own detriment. With the amount of dialogue and situational brusqueness that is present in the MGS series, that is just not a mountain that can be considered 'one of the best.'

As an aside, this particular moment in MGR was one of my favorites:

A great "let's dispense with all the bullshit and just fight, 2 cyborg ninjas in the desert, and one robot dog" moment.

 

[tbd]

Lol, this thread.

Indeed. So many people going nuts over their favourite game being criticised.

 

[DoktorEvil]

i think the point is that games can emphasize different things. nobody expects super hexagon to have riveting dialogue, but when metal gear spends painfully long periods of time making you listen to characters talk at each other you can expect the game to be critiqued for it.

You can skip over a majority of the dialogue of the game. Nothing is forced upon the player. Neither does the game force you to play stealthy through as well. You can go for a 0 death run or blast your gun all over the place. The player is given options.

I can understand if the OP didn't like Metal Gear. I really do. I don't accept his comparisons of newer games as his baseline of what is a good stealth based game. In 1998, by that year's standards, Metal Gear Solid was a defining game.

 

[Naughty_Doge]

This thread, I like it.

I don't know what's funnier: the obviously inflammatory thread title and hyperbole used in the OP, or the amount of salt being shed by some people here who can't get over the fact that someone doesn't like their favourite thing.