Support NeoGAF

[Gaiff]

The only reason they exist is to stop the player from getting too powerful too quickly, so they gate the abilities you want behind levels and skill points.

I'm replaying a melee build in Cyberpunk, a cyber samurai if you will. I invested ability points in body to enhance my health regen and then wanted to invest more points for more melee damage which is what body is supposed to be...imagine my surprise when I saw that the skill I want is a tier 2 skill in another tree, the Reflexes one. Now I have to dump points in Reflexes too.

I don't get why this is still a thing. It's infuriating how they sometimes keep awesome abilities behind shit-tier ones you don't even want or will ever use. I understand when the abilities are related or if one is an extension/evolution of a previous one and its predecessor is needed. This makes perfect sense. Say you got a skill that allows you to zoom in with a scope and unlocking it also unlocks a skill that causes enemies to slow down while zooming in. The synergy and progress make perfect sense. But in some games, you need to choose a skill that allows you to pick up plants faster to unlock one that makes you more resistant to stun. WTF is the relation there?

And the Cyberpunk example isn't even the most egregious ones. At least body and reflexes synergize so you're not completely wasting your points.

The concept as a whole isn't terrible but it's more often than not lazily executed with a mishmash of unrelated skills and abilities. Just make it so that everything in a given tree is something the playstyle it's tailored to might become better as a result of picking the perks in the aforementioned tree.

/endrant

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

It's just so lazy designers can claim their game has "depth"

Meanwhile, Zelda with no exp and no skill trees manages to be more fun than all those AAA games combined.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Isn't this essentially the same as saying "I hate not having every ability unlocked from the start of the game!"?

I mean, if we strip the nomenclature, you could say that Zelda locks the Longshot behind the useless Megaton Hammer. I mean...in games that aren't arcade, you need to incentivize the player to keep playing. For better or worse, that means creating a slope of progression for the player to navigate.

 

[GymWolf]

Depends on the skill tree.

Small incremantal improvements? boring
Unlocking actual skills for combat, traversal etc.? i don't see anything bad about it.

Cyberpunk2077 patch 2.0 is a good (but still not excellent) example of how to revamp a skill tree.

 

[Gaiff]

Isn't this essentially the same as saying "I hate not having every ability unlocked from the start of the game!"?

Not at all. That abilities that are just evolved or enhanced version of others require the lower tier ones to be unlocked makes sense as I said. Don't put useless abilities utterly unrelated to the playstyle in a tree.

I mean, if we strip the nomenclature, you could say that Zelda locks the Longshot behind the useless Megaton Hammer. I mean...in games that aren't arcade, you need to incentivize the player to keep playing. For better or worse, that means creating a slope of progression for the player to navigate.

If the progression is organic and sensible, I have no problem. The concept isn't the issue, the execution is.

Here's an example, In HZD, there is a skill called Concentration that slows down time when aiming with the bow. It's a Tier 1 skill. The enhanced version is a Tier III skill that requires to unlock the Tier II Heavy Lifting skill that allows you to move faster while carrying heavy weapons. WTF does carrying heavy weapons faster have to do with time slowing down when you aim? I don't wanna waste a point to get Concentration+. If instead of Heavy Lifting, we had something that enhanced the base Concentration skill or meshed well with it, I'd have no problem. Instead, we have a completely unrelated perk that needs unlocking.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Not at all. That abilities that are just evolved or enhanced version of others require the lower tier ones to be unlocked makes sense as I said. Don't put useless abilities utterly unrelated to the playstyle in a tree.

If the progression is organic and sensible, I have no problem. The concept isn't the issue, the execution is.

Here's an example, In HZD, there is a skill called Concentration that slows down time when aiming with the bow. It's a Tier 1 skill. The enhanced version is a Tier III skill that requires to unlock the Tier II Heavy Lifting skill that allows you to move faster while carrying heavy weapons. WTF does carrying heavy weapons faster have to do with time slowing down when you aim? I don't wanna waste a point to get Concentration+. If instead of Heavy Lifting, we had something that enhanced the base Concentration skill or meshed well with it, I'd have no problem. Instead, we have a completely unrelated perk that needs unlocking.

Ahhh, I DEFINITELY agree with that aspect. Having "abilities," that are the exact same but have a 33% enhanced range or 25% less cooldown and shit are literal insults to game progression.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Cyberpunk is a bad example to rant about this. It's an example of an RPG that actually allows for creating specialised character builds instead of just unlocking everything as you progress.

The only time skill trees make no sense is when, by the end of the game, you're a gigachad with literally everything unlocked, rendering the whole exercise of investing points into skills entirely pointless. If that's how the game was built then it may as well just provide you with new abilities automatically at certain points in the story, instead of creating this false bullshit pretendo character customisation.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

+1 Perception

 

[BouncyFrag]

If I want to max out my melee skill in Starfield I have to go murder kill 100 of gods creatures with my pen knife.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

If I want to max out my melee skill in Starfield I have to go murder kill 100 of gods creatures with my pen knife.

Murder Killing. Or Murk for short.

 

[Mowcno]

It's just so lazy designers can claim their game has "depth"

Meanwhile, Zelda with no exp and no skill trees manages to be more fun than all those AAA games combined.

And if every game had the exact mechanics of Zelda you'd get bored very quickly. Just because a game can be fun without having a certain mechanic doesn't mean all games shouldn't have that mechanic. Variety is necessary.

 

[ReBurn]

I only dislike them when they throw off a game's balance

 

[IceSage91]

The only reason they exist is to stop the player from getting too powerful too quickly, so they gate the abilities you want behind levels and skill points.

I'm replaying a melee build in Cyberpunk, a cyber samurai if you will. I invested ability points in body to enhance my health regen and then wanted to invest more points for more melee damage which is what body is supposed to be...imagine my surprise when I saw that the skill I want is a tier 2 skill in another tree, the Reflexes one. Now I have to dump points in Reflexes too.

I don't get why this is still a thing. It's infuriating how they sometimes keep awesome abilities behind shit-tier ones you don't even want or will ever use. I understand when the abilities are related or if one is an extension/evolution of a previous one and its predecessor is needed. This makes perfect sense. Say you got a skill that allows you to zoom in with a scope and unlocking it also unlocks a skill that causes enemies to slow down while zooming in. The synergy and progress make perfect sense. But in some games, you need to choose a skill that allows you to pick up plants faster to unlock one that makes you more resistant to stun. WTF is the relation there?

And the Cyberpunk example isn't even the most egregious ones. At least body and reflexes synergize so you're not completely wasting your points.

The concept as a whole isn't terrible but it's more often than not lazily executed with a mishmash of unrelated skills and abilities. Just make it so that everything in a given tree is something the playstyle it's tailored to might become better as a result of picking the perks in the aforementioned tree.

/endrant

You wrong doe, im sure there's bad examples but there's plenty of really good skill trees in other games that help encourage unique builds and playstyles

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

And if every game had the exact mechanics of Zelda you'd get bored very quickly. Just because a game can be fun without having a certain mechanic doesn't mean all games shouldn't have that mechanic. Variety is necessary.

And you can achieve that *without* skill trees (if you want)

Problem is designers don't want to think, they just want to follow trends and make clones of other games.

Just look at how many "Metroidvanias" and "Roguelikes" exist in the market today.
They just want to copy whatever is popular at the moment.

 

[IceSage91]

Problem is designers don't want to think

This is the worst take about game development

 

[near]

It's just so lazy designers can claim their game has "depth"

Meanwhile, Zelda with no exp and no skill trees manages to be more fun than all those AAA games combined.

It's not lazy design its a staple mechanic in character progression, that allows users to progress their character in a personalized way to suit a particular approach or play style. It doesn't work well in every game, and sometimes it is implemented really poorly, but I wouldn't call it lazy game design.

Zelda has no exp and skill tree, but yet makes you search and grind 152 dumbass shrines to max heart/stamina. Or 900 hidden korok seeds to increase inventory space. That smells more like lazy game design if you ask me.

 

[Knightime_X]

I use cheat mods if it annoys me enough.
Not going to lie.

It can feel like a time waster and be annoying.
I mostly refuse to go overboard, but sometimes balancing it yourself for the sake of fun is highly necessary.

 

[Robb]

Yeah, I’m not a fan of them either. Usually it takes too long to get to the good stuff or the changes your points add are too minuscule. When I get something new I want it to feel impactful/useful immediately which is rarely the case.

 

[cireza]

"Meaningful choices"

 

[German Hops]

Skill trees are the best thing to happen to the rpg genre

 

[RyRy93]

They are so poorly done most of the time, there’s usually far too much stuff to unlock.

When I look at a vast ugly collection of greyed out icons gating gameplay elements that could be unlocked through a quest it deflates my interest in the game a bit.

 

[RoboFu]

Yeah same here. It’s just a neutered rpg element .

 

[Edgelord79]

Isn't this essentially the same as saying "I hate not having every ability unlocked from the start of the game!"?

This. I don’t get it. If every ability is useful and there are no poor ones then there is no risk-reward. I guess it’s not everybody’s cup of tea.

I actually like them because it lets me plan out a build beforehand.

 

[Rentahamster]

I don't.

But it's possible to design them badly.

 

[squarealex]

cheap way to lock gameplay possibility to avoid repetitive gameplay from the start

I hate it too... All game now have skill tree.