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Victor Omega · Sep 21, 2020

Cyberpunk 2077 Only DX12 / Is This A Power Move From Mirosoft? / Fate of Vulkan [API War]

Sure headlines of like Cyberpunk 2077 will be DX12-only, will only work on Windows 7 and Windows 10 is due to the game 'not working' on certain Operating Systems (Sorry Windows 8 users) but it seems like Microsoft might actually ...care for how games run on Windows now that there is potential...

www.neogaf.com

in July, did i know Microsoft was gonna buy one of the biggest 3rd party game studios like Bethesda and ID software?

no

Did I feel that Microsoft, getting an upcoming game like Cyberpunk 2077 to be exclusive to DirectX, would try to pursue more DirectX exclusive games at the API level?

maybe, it seems like a really good power move.

Make no mistake about this acquisition, Bethesda and ID, with Id software supporting OpenGL, have probably contributed a lot to Vulkan and it to them. So them being now bound to Microsoft (for Xbox, we will have to wait and see if they make all their game console exclusive) Vulkan could loose a big developer like ID who has supported OpenGL in favor for ...*cough* driver heavy *cough cough*, DirectX.

Why id Software Chose Vulkan over DirectX 12

id Software is one of the best-known game developers in the world, having created smash hit games for many generations. With the latest Doom game being another big hit, and a graphical powerhouse…

www.eteknix.com

DunDunDunpachi · Sep 21, 2020

Hmm, didn't think of this, but that's a valid point. Microsoft is not just acquiring the IPs but also the tech and the engineers behind the tech. Doubtful they'd continue working on Vulkan while under Microsoft's umbrella.

Victor Omega · Sep 21, 2020

yeah it gonna be interesting in what they do

JLB · Sep 21, 2020

Such a huge move (MSFT buying Zenimax) has many implications. I didnt think about this but actually might have considerable implications for Vulkan and DirectX, probably. Good point OP.

{insert code here} · Sep 21, 2020

Interesting point. If iD was a big contributer to Vulcan then this acquisition makes perfect sense. It's a classic MS move.

thicc_girls_are_teh_best · Sep 21, 2020

IIRC DX12U compares very favorably with Vulkan in terms of low-level API access and resource usage. It does suck that Vulkan might lose iD Software through this deal, but I kind of don't see anything technically preventing them from supporting both Vulkan and DX going forward.

It's not like MS can refuse Vulkan from being Windows-compatible, that'd be illegal. The main advantages Vulkan have are slightly higher FPS averages on weaker cards because it uses both GPU and CPU. I guess with getting iD Software through the Bethesda deal, if iD were big reasons in those benefits popping into Vulkan then they can apply that to DX12U and future DX.

Doesn't really hurt Vulkan IMHO; heck with Sony getting more into PC they could probably invest more into Vulkan if they'd like and I doubt Khronos would be upset with that.

Apocryphon · Sep 21, 2020

Carmack wouldn't have let this happen.

Victor Omega · Sep 21, 2020

Apocryphon_ said:
Carmack wouldn't have let this happen.

You're right

CloudNull · Sep 21, 2020

Fuck no, please don’t let it happen gaf. I love Vulkan and would have for it to lose most it’s support.

Hudo · Sep 21, 2020

But aren't Microsoft also a member of the Khronos group?

ZywyPL · Sep 21, 2020

Let's be honest, Vulcan never stood a chance to begin with - with billions of computers all over the globe running on Windows, it was a given MS' solution will come out as the dominant one, especially considering that the vast majority of games were already using DX11, the devs were already used to their libraries, while OpenGL titles were nowhere to be found, the transition to low-level APIs was over before it even started. I still remember how damn long it took Vulcan to take off, even harder than DX12 already, it had huge promises, like never before seen cross-platform support, including Linux, "coding to the metal" and what's not, it was suppose to be THE API to rule them all, but it wasn't before Doom showed up that Vulcan showed what it's capable of, the hype went trough the roof, but just as it all started with Doom, it also pretty much ended there, outside Doom/Wolfenstein titles Vulcan is barely utilized, and now is even falling behind the upcoming DX12U - it doesn't have RT yet, let alone the upcoming next-gen features, so even more reasons for the devs to use DX12 instead. Maybe some kind of an unexpected event will occur in the near future that will drastically change the landscape, but I personally have little to no hopes for that.

Robochobo · Sep 21, 2020

DX12(b) has always been something of an outlier in regards to when and how it's used. In the newer Total War titles the performance increase has been anywhere from 10-40% to framerate depending on GPU/CPU (AMD more often than not sees higher gains for obvious reasons). I'm actually excited to see if XGS can not only leverage idTech for first party games, but use the expertise those engineers have for other suitable engines and improving DX12U in general. I understand Microsoft is a software company in general but having actual engineers and opposing views from people who've actually worked in video game development will hopefully push them to take PC seriously as a platform. As consoles begin to inch closer to PC albeit with modification and customization, the performance and stability gains for both can and should take serious steps forward. I think it's a huge boon for developing for PC and lower end spec users.

captainraincoat · Sep 21, 2020

Vulcan has been a savior for those on lower end to mid range cards

Njocky · Sep 22, 2020

All we expect from Carmack after this is to go spend his lunch breaks at 343 industries. Let's just say his aura could be beneficial given what's going on there.

Victor Omega · Sep 22, 2020

captainraincoat said:
Vulcan has been a savior for those on lower end to mid range cards

Exactly

sn0man · Sep 22, 2020

OP. Shit! This is a good point. Vulcan has been a great part of the gaming community as of late. This makes me sad as id felt equal parts badass games and badass open source support.

Hudo said:
But aren't Microsoft also a member of the Khronos group?

If Microsoft open sourced directX that would be a boon to the industry as a whole. Sadly I’m not seeing that happen, but hopefully they will.

CloudNull · Sep 22, 2020

sn0man said:
OP. Shit! This is a good point. Vulcan has been a great part of the gaming community as of late. This makes me sad as id felt equal parts badass games and badass open source support.

If Microsoft open sourced directX that would be a boon to the industry as a whole. Sadly I’m not seeing that happen, but hopefully they will.

There is hope. Microsoft is opening up the walls a bit. The new terminal they just launched is awesome and PowerShell it’s gettin support to work with Linux. Not sure how the gaming side feels about it but at least windows is opening up.

sn0man · Sep 22, 2020

CloudNull said:
There is hope. Microsoft is opening up the walls a bit. The new terminal they just launched is awesome and PowerShell it’s gettin support to work with Linux. Not sure how the gaming side feels about it but at least windows is opening up.

Yeah they bought GitHub and haven’t trashed it yet. I’d really like to see them invest in or push technology out for Vulcan if they won’t provide open source direct X. I’d even be okay with a commitment that put Vulcan as a second tier effort. Like DX13 in 2021, then bring those features to Vulcan in 2022 kind of thing.

HarryKS · Sep 22, 2020

Looks more like they wanted a publisher with a proven track record and distribution network to me.

SF Kosmo · Sep 22, 2020

Apocryphon_ said:
Carmack wouldn't have let this happen.

Carmack seems relieved since the existing powers and Zenimax hate him.

SlimeGooGoo · Sep 22, 2020

Apocryphon · Sep 22, 2020

SF Kosmo said:
Carmack seems relieved since the existing powers and Zenimax hate him.

I'm positive he's glad he isn't working there but the guy singlehandedly built the platform that led id Software to prominence and he already fought tooth and nail to keep their engines open. That he released id Tech 1 - 4 to the public for free along with the source codes for Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, and Quake shouldn't be forgotten or glossed over.

Doom 2016 was a massive success without him and Doom Eternal is one of the best FPS games ever, but none of it would have been possible without Carmack. I'm glad he's at Oculus as a consultant, and out from under a company like Zenimax, but the end result is that we probably lose Vulkan and MS pushes DirectX.

This acquisition IS about the games, but its also about the underlying technology and MS isn't going to keep Vulkan around long term.

Hudo · Sep 22, 2020

sn0man said:
OP. Shit! This is a good point. Vulcan has been a great part of the gaming community as of late. This makes me sad as id felt equal parts badass games and badass open source support.

If Microsoft open sourced directX that would be a boon to the industry as a whole. Sadly I’m not seeing that happen, but hopefully they will.

Yeah, I would also love for nVidia to open source CUDA... All these proprietary APIs are just locking you into their eco system.

Kumomeme · Sep 22, 2020

this is interesting take. i wonder what gonna happened with vulkan. MS surely gonna push directx12 unless they actually give freedom to bethesda.

nowhat · Sep 22, 2020

Apocryphon_ said:
Carmack wouldn't have let this happen.

Suuure. Just like he wouldn't let Oculus require a Facebook account.

Brofist · Sep 22, 2020

Apocryphon_ said:
Carmack wouldn't have let this happen.

Apocryphon · Sep 22, 2020

Brofist said:

What does his view of Microsoft being a good parent company for id and not holding a grudge against him like Zenimax have to do with Vulkan?

KuraiShidosha · Sep 22, 2020

I swear to god if Microsoft tries to kill Vulkan support I'm gone. Linux it is for me. The cards are finally starting to look good enough to make the switch anyway with the likes of DXVK so it is viable to consider.

sn0man · Sep 22, 2020

The more I think about this the more sad I am. I wish id hadn’t sold itself.

CircleOfFire · Sep 22, 2020

KuraiShidosha said:
I swear to god if Microsoft tries to kill Vulkan support I'm gone. Linux it is for me. The cards are finally starting to look good enough to make the switch anyway with the likes of DXVK so it is viable to consider.

I've been really impressed by Valve's support, Proton feels like magic at times. Played a load of C&C Remastered with it and could barely tell it is a Windows game.

Victor Omega · Sep 23, 2020

sn0man said:
The more I think about this the more sad I am. I wish id hadn’t sold itself.

Yeah it sound like this is likely

RoboFu · Sep 23, 2020

Nah i doubt MS wants to get rid of vulkan development as they will want to support as many devices as possible going forward. I mean Microsoft are contributing memers to Khronos.

Razvedka · Sep 23, 2020

sn0man said:
Yeah they bought GitHub and haven’t trashed it yet. I’d really like to see them invest in or push technology out for Vulcan if they won’t provide open source direct X. I’d even be okay with a commitment that put Vulcan as a second tier effort. Like DX13 in 2021, then bring those features to Vulcan in 2022 kind of thing.

Just wait. I died inside when I found out they bought GitHub. There's zero reason to believe they won't completely fuck that into the earth somehow, from a historical analysis.

Bojanglez · Sep 23, 2020

Razvedka said:
Just wait. I died inside when I found out they bought GitHub. There's zero reason to believe they won't completely fuck that into the earth somehow, from a historical analysis.

The thing with github is that you can transfer your repo to another git service in minutes, so they kind of have to play nice.

Razvedka · Sep 23, 2020

Bojanglez said:
The thing with github is that you can transfer your repo to another git service in minutes, so they kind of have to play nice.

God willing another entity rises up to take the mantle. Hell, it'd be awesome if the platform itself was decentralized and a FOSS initiative itself vs under the control of any company or government.

pr0cs · Sep 23, 2020

Razvedka said:
Just wait. I died inside when I found out they bought GitHub. There's zero reason to believe they won't completely fuck that into the earth somehow, from a historical analysis.

Hasn't happened yet, github is better after they bought it than before, the fact I can make private repos now without having to pay is awesome. And it's GIT, nothing stopping you from making your own server or converting your projects to a different host.

Bojanglez · Sep 23, 2020

Razvedka said:
God willing another entity rises up to take the mantle. Hell, it'd be awesome if the platform itself was decentralized and a FOSS initiative itself vs under the control of any company or government.

but git itself is free and open source, github is just a service that wraps around it. There are a load of other great online services already (e.g. GitLab, Bitbucket etc.) you can even spin up and host your own service if you want.

PhoenixTank · Sep 23, 2020

Expect a revolt at id if Microsoft dictate which API to use.

That said an awful lot of games exclusively use DirectX anyway, so the status quo isn't changing in general.
Hell it might result in Bethesda Game Studios moving from DX11 to DX12 a bit sooner, which would be a good thing.

The Mad Draklor · Sep 23, 2020

CircleOfFire said:
I've been really impressed by Valve's support, Proton feels like magic at times. Played a load of C&C Remastered with it and could barely tell it is a Windows game.

Proton has been pretty great as well as the Glorious Eggroll variants of Proton. What's holding it back currently is the incompatibility with Easy Anti-Cheat and VKD3D (Vulkan to DX12). I'm more of a singleplayer, so the former doesn't affect me much. However, with more games running on DX12, VKD3D will become a problem if it doesn't catch up.

Victor Omega · Sep 23, 2020

Just want to point out the perspective we had in July:

PhoenixTank said:
Nah. Doesn't smell like the old Microsoft tricks (EEE or anything like that). A whole lot of new games are DirectX only, while some have Vulkan, or are Vulkan only.
As for why DX12:

Less burden on that side, and in theory reduces bugs on PC. Ask any software dev about the difference between theory and practice, though

Wanted to add that: yes Mantle and later Vulkan seemed to provide a solid kick up the arse to Microsoft regarding DirectX.

Now, this month:

Twinsanity said:
Interesting point. If iD was a big contributer to Vulcan then this acquisition makes perfect sense. It's a classic MS move.

PhoenixTank · Sep 24, 2020

MegaZoneEX said:
Just want to point out the perspective we had in July:

Now, this month:

Two different people have two different opinions? Not sure what you're getting at...
I posted in this thread as well and my perspective hasn't changed beyond an extra caution to Microsoft: Trying to tell id what to do with idTech would be a grave misstep and I'd see it starting a talent exodus. I believe the absolute furthest it could go would be DX12 on Xbox with both DX12 & Vulkan on PC.

Of note as well, here is the full list of those working with Khronos Group, and thus have any access to or any say in how Vulkan progresses.
Taken from here.
Yes, id are on the list, but they have plenty of company.

Academic

Ajou University

China Academy of Information and Communications Technology

ETRI

Imperial College London

Institute for Computer Science and Control

Kyungpook National University

National Tsing Hua University

Nihon University

Oregon State University

Seoul National University

State Key Lab of CAD&CG, Zhejiang University