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"I preached against homosexuality, but I was wrong"

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Gaborn

Member
As a Presbyterian minister, I believed it was a sin. Then I met people who really understood the stakes: Gay men.

A recent poll shows a huge shift in American attitudes toward gay marriage, from a 32 percent approval in 2004 to 53 percent today.

I am one of those people who changed their minds.

In 1989 when I was ordained as a minister to serve a small church in North Carolina, homosexuality was an invisible issue. Gay rights were barely on the radar of mainstream churches. The idea of an openly gay pastor was beyond the pale. 
 I knew there were "gay churches," of course, but I did not believe one could be a practicing homosexual and a Christian. The Bible was straightforward on this issue. It all seemed incredibly obvious to me.

But over the next five years, homosexuality not only became an issue -- it became The Issue. Sides were drawn, and those of us in the middle were pulled to either end. I was a biblical Christian, of the "hate the sin, love the sinner" crowd. And so it seemed clear that I could not fully accept, ordain and marry gays. If I was going to be forced to choose a side, that was mine.

The truth is, I was put out that this was an issue. Feeding the hungry, preaching the gospel, comforting the afflicted, standing up to racial intolerance -- these were the struggles I signed up for, not determining the morality of what adults did in their bedrooms.


But the debate would not go away. It came up, again and again, year after year, pushed by activists on either end. Each time, I grudgingly voted to hold the traditional line and limit the role of gays in the church. But I felt increasingly uncomfortable. What I believed was biblically correct began to feel less and less right in my heart.

While the church was fighting it out, I was going through my own battle. I moved to Alaska in 1996, but the debate followed me. And three major things happened which started to crack the wall of my complacency.

First, I had a long, online conversation with a gay Christian man who had wrestled with his sexuality and finally decided, as he put it, that God was more concerned with his pride than his sexuality. He was hesitant to talk about the subject when I first broached it, partially because every other pastor he'd talked to wanted to convert him. But in the end, he's the one who taught me. He surprised me by saying he did not know he was gay until he was in his early 20s. (He just thought he had an extraordinary respect for women.)

Next, a parishioner asked me to do an exorcism for him because he was gay. He had tried everything else he could think of -- therapy, prayer, will power, alcohol, support groups, marriage -- and nothing worked. It was a heartbreaking situation. As a minister I may have questioned the sinfulness of his actions, but I absolutely knew he was not demon-possessed. 



Then I met a woman whose husband had left her for another man. They were a clergy couple, serving a small-town church. She had every right to be angry and hurt, but I was awed by her grace. She told me he was the best minister she had ever known. (From his work record, I would agree.) He simply got to the point where he could no longer live the lie of his sexuality. Of course he had to leave the ministry once he came out. It must have been a hideous choice: Pretend to be something he was not, or leave his calling because of the person he loved. 


These experiences shook my worldview. It became clear to me that none of these men had chosen to be gay, just as I had never chosen to be heterosexual. How could I condemn someone for something that was really not their fault? Meanwhile, I was experiencing the slow disintegration of my own marriage. Needless to say, it was hard for me to condemn anyone else for their relationships when mine was in such bad shape. I began moving closer to the center. If homosexuality was a "sin," I wanted to add an asterisk to it.

Toward the end of my parish ministry, I was approached by five individuals who demanded that I do a sermon to come out strong against any acceptance of gays and lesbians in the church. They wanted to hear what the Bible said on the issue. The funny thing was, all five of them were divorced and remarried. Had I done a sermon on what the Bible said about divorce, every one of them would have left the church in a huff.

I did that sermon, however, and it was not my best hour as a Minister of Word and Sacrament. In my research, I found that the Bible was more nuanced about the issue than I previously believed, and I tried to convey that, but ultimately I still came out against acceptance of homosexuality. Now, I wish I'd been more upfront about how my own views were transforming, but I took a back-door approach to the subject. I talked about all the sins according to the Bible, and said if we were going to start throwing out sinners from our church, I wanted to start with the gossips.

Looking back, I see how much my own opinions had been formed by the fact that I was representing a split congregation. Our church, like so many, was divided. And while the people who believed it should be accepted were not going to leave if we maintained a position of non-acceptance, those who felt it was a sin would bolt in a heartbeat if we ever allowed gay clergy or gay marriage. If they bolted, half our budget would go out the door. I knew the issue could tear the church apart. What I didn't realize was how it could tear apart the people in the church as well.

Every year we send young people to our national meeting as youth delegates. In a year when gay ordination was going to be discussed (again), I sat down with our selected delegate to share some of my own thoughts on the topic. Later, the person declined the position. I was given reasons, but none of them made any real sense until I learned, many years later, that the person had come out of the closet. What had I said back then? I couldn't remember exactly, but I am pretty sure it boiled down to the idea that there was no place for homosexuals in our church.

In 2005 I left the parish ministry to work as a hospital chaplain. Part of the reason for leaving was my separation. But also, I was tired of trying to live up to standards that I did not fully agree with.

With distance, I could see the mean-spirited nature of the anti-gay movement, and the naked way large Christian organizations used the "gay threat" to raise money. Free from the constraints of a congregation, I could spend more time actually looking at the biblical texts that deal with homosexuality, and I was surprised to find they were not as clear as I had supposed they were. At this point, I have done a 180 on the topic. And I believe it's a change for the good.

So why had we singled out homosexuality as a litmus test for True Christianity in the first place? Why had it become such a lightning rod for self-righteousness?

One reason, I think, is that it's easy to condemn homosexuality if you are not gay. It is much harder than condemning pride, or lust or greed, things that most practicing Christians have struggled with. It is all too easy to make homosexuality about "those people," and not me. If I were to judge someone for their inflated sense of pride, or their tendency to worship various cultural idols, I would feel some personal stake, some cringe of self-judgment. Not so with homosexuality. 





Now I am wondering why, if two gay people want to commit their lives to one another, they should ever be denied that chance. No church or pastor should be forced to perform those ceremonies, and they can choose not to recognize gay marriage for their adherents. But the constitution of the Presbyterian Church does not explicitly forbid a pastor from being a thief, a murderer, or an egotistical jerk. It is not designed to do these things. It does prohibit a gay person from becoming a pastor. All I can ask is: Why?

Story Here

When I saw this I went back and forth about posting it. I know that GAF is often reflexively anti-religion and the risk of backlash is high... but I think we need to all remember that people do change their minds on issues. I think it's very admirable that Mr. Richmond has changed his position on this issue and that is something we should all support because it's not easy for a person to do.
 
In my research, I found that the Bible was more nuanced about the issue than I previously believed, and I tried to convey that, but ultimately I still came out against acceptance of homosexuality

That is simply not true
 
Is he speaking in regards to homosexuality in the sense of intimacy between gay partners or is he talking about the sexual orientation in general - because there are sentences in there which suggest one and/or the other. This is one of the issues about the semantics and the perceptions surrounding homosexuality. There are those who believe being gay in itself is a sin whereas the predominant position in monotheism is gay sexuality is what is sinful. If the author was surrounded by the former viewpoint, then I can especially understand how it could have left a lasting impact on him. Irrespective of the theology here, it's the fact that so many religious people can afford to be ignorant or hateful of what are effectively innocent people. Imagine being heterosexual was a sin? They would all look for support and understanding. But that isn't afforded to them in some parts. Of course that is one side of the spectrum. The other side have given me headaches of their own
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Mr Rogers tops all religious tolerance people:

Mister Rogers seems to have been almost exactly the same off-screen as he was onscreen. As an ordained Presbyterian minister, and a man of tremendous faith, Mister Rogers preached tolerance first.

Whenever he was asked to castigate non-Christians or gays for their differing beliefs, he would instead face them and say, with sincerity, "God loves you just the way you are." Often this provoked ire from fundamentalists.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/07/28/mf.mrrogers.neighbor/index.html
 

Dr. Malik

FlatAss_
BananaBomb said:
come on people he's playing off the ministers = gay jokes.

eh kind of, Just from experience that most people that preach against homosexuality and are very out-spoken usually are themselves. But if he is straight then kudos to him and hopefully he can get more of his people to do the same.
 
So why had we singled out homosexuality as a litmus test for True Christianity in the first place? Why had it become such a lightning rod for self-righteousness?

One reason, I think, is that it's easy to condemn homosexuality if you are not gay. It is much harder than condemning pride, or lust or greed, things that most practicing Christians have struggled with. It is all too easy to make homosexuality about "those people," and not me. If I were to judge someone for their inflated sense of pride, or their tendency to worship various cultural idols, I would feel some personal stake, some cringe of self-judgment. Not so with homosexuality


love this excerpt.
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
PhoenixDark said:
That is simply not true


I'm sure one could debate your view, but seeing you outright slam the door on the argument put forth by a comparative expert in the field is pretty funny.
 

itxaka

Defeatist
Next, a parishioner asked me to do an exorcism for him because he was gay. He had tried everything else he could think of -- therapy, prayer, will power, alcohol, support groups, marriage -- and nothing worked. It was a heartbreaking situation.

wow, this is fucking sad. That a guy had to go trougth all that becasue he doesn't feel good with who he is, thanks to a religion group is pretty pretty sad. Show how much damage to individuals are doing the strict anti-x of organized groups, especially the ones that have a lot of influence.
 

Clevinger

Member
Hari Seldon said:
Mr Rogers tops all religious tolerance people:

Mister Rogers seems to have been almost exactly the same off-screen as he was onscreen. As an ordained Presbyterian minister, and a man of tremendous faith, Mister Rogers preached tolerance first.

Whenever he was asked to castigate non-Christians or gays for their differing beliefs, he would instead face them and say, with sincerity, "God loves you just the way you are." Often this provoked ire from fundamentalists.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/07/28/mf.mrrogers.neighbor/index.html

Awesome dude.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
As much as I like the news stories you post Gaborn, I can't help but notice and be troubled by the pattern of what you choose to post. With an estimated 50% of your stories involving homosexuality, it's clear you have your own agenda.
 
A Human Becoming said:
As much as I like the news stories you post Gaborn, I can't help but notice and be troubled by the pattern of news stories you choose to post. With an estimated 50% of your stories involving homosexuality, it's clear you have your own agenda.
And it begins.

You DO know he's gay, right?
 

kinggroin

Banned
TacticalFox88 said:
Now if only all Chrisitans started thinking this way.


I think a LOT more do than GAF gives credit for. The problem is, much like this gentleman in the op, expressing our feelings on gay rights means going against what the older members of the church believe. It risks making us an outcast among fellow believers. While atheists here may say, "What's the problem? Screw what they believe and do what's right", as this story shows, its never tha simple. Risking the loss of what otherwise are strong relationships...is a tough thing to face and accept.
 
levious said:
I'm sure one could debate your view, but seeing you outright slam the door on the argument put forth by a comparative expert in the field is pretty funny.

I doubt that. The bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. I'm not religious and support gay rights
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
PhoenixDark said:
I doubt that. The bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. I'm not religious and support gay rights


right, that's what makes it funny, he's an expert, you're not.
 
A Human Becoming said:
As much as I like the news stories you post Gaborn, I can't help but notice and be troubled by the pattern of what you choose to post. With an estimated 50% of your stories involving homosexuality, it's clear you have your own agenda.

What agenda would that be? Accepting gays? My God...why would anyone support such a cause! Burn him!
 

Majmun

Member
A Human Becoming said:
As much as I like the news stories you post Gaborn, I can't help but notice and be troubled by the pattern of what you choose to post. With an estimated 50% of your stories involving homosexuality, it's clear you have your own agenda.

Who cares? Don't shoot the messenger.

Good article, btw.
 
"I took a back-door approach to the subject."

A Human Becoming said:
As much as I like the news stories you post Gaborn, I can't help but notice and be troubled by the pattern of what you choose to post. With an estimated 50% of your stories involving homosexuality, it's clear you have your own agenda.

What's your agenda?
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
A Human Becoming said:
As much as I like the news stories you post Gaborn, I can't help but notice and be troubled by the pattern of what you choose to post. With an estimated 50% of your stories involving homosexuality, it's clear you have your own agenda.
Maybe you should review the stated policies of this website if this is troubling you.
 
A Human Becoming said:
I don't really have a problem with it, I just wish his "news" would be more diverse.

__009worffacepalm.gif
 
Hai guys! I just got word from headquarters that the gay agenda was pushed forward 12.5% by this thread!

Congrats, Gaborn! You get extra blowjob rations!
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
RevDM said:
in before shanadeus posts male butt pics.

:lol

A Human Becoming said:
As much as I like the news stories you post Gaborn, I can't help but notice and be troubled by the pattern of what you choose to post. With an estimated 50% of your stories involving homosexuality, it's clear you have your own agenda.

you're not super quick are you?
 

mantidor

Member
PhoenixDark said:
I doubt that. The bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. I'm not religious and support gay rights

I'm pretty sure they simply are not literal about the Bible, and to be honest I think is probably impossible to actually be literal. When they enter into the realm of interpretation, is obvious the Bible really doesn't condemn homosexuality at the level some pastors preach. We all know the popular verses about not shaving, or not eating shellfish, which would be absurd to take literally.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
I swear people on GAF look for any reason to jump down someone's throat. I just say I wish his news would be more diverse and suddenly I don't want him to post anything pro-homosexuality, when I even said in my initial post I like the stories he posts.
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
PhoenixDark said:
Ha ok. Nice troll, but I'm not going to bite there.


eh? You're an expert on bible study? I found your post and attitude funny, that's all. We all do that at times, like how a group of users can start debating theoretical physics at the drop of a hat.

A Human Becoming said:
I swear people on GAF look for any reason to jump down someone's throat. I just say I wish his news would be more diverse and suddenly I don't want him to post anything pro-homosexuality, when I even said in my initial post I like the stories he posts.


calling it an agenda and then further labeling it troubling, how would you expect anyone to react?
 

Gaborn

Member
A Human Becoming said:
I don't really have a problem with it, I just wish his "news" would be more diverse.

I post subjects that interest me, things that aren't necessarily "big news" stories that other people have already gotten to. Broadly speaking you could say some subjects I post fairly often is new species (my personal favorite, especially when I can post a photo gallery of new interesting species), other science related threads (especially medical break throughs), Criminal misadventures, weird news, gay news, and a smattering of politics. I'd guess that covers the bulk of it. I DO try to post a variety of stories. Personally I would guess my "gay" threads are maybe 10% of what I post.
 
D

Deleted member 30609

Unconfirmed Member
A testament to people's ability to impose arbitrary limitations on their mind, and how hard it is to then break through back into reality using twisted versions of already broken logic.

He has a good heart though, and we could use more role-models like that.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
Gaborn said:
I post subjects that interest me, things that aren't necessarily "big news" stories that other people have already gotten to. Broadly speaking you could say some subjects I post fairly often is new species (my personal favorite, especially when I can post a photo gallery of new interesting species), other science related threads (especially medical break throughs), Criminal misadventures, weird news, gay news, and a smattering of politics. I'd guess that covers the bulk of it. I DO try to post a variety of stories. Personally I would guess my "gay" threads are maybe 10% of what I post.

It might just be what I notice more often, seeing I already know you're gay. Like I said, I enjoy the stories you post.

levious said:
calling it an agenda and then further labeling it troubling, how would you expect anyone to react?

Well, I do think he does partially have an agenda, but it's not one of ill intentions. Troubling wasn't the word I was looking for; I even consulted a thesaurus to find a better term.
 
A Human Becoming said:
I swear people on GAF look for any reason to jump down someone's throat. I just say I wish his news would be more diverse and suddenly I don't want him to post anything pro-homosexuality, when I even said in my initial post I like the stories he posts.


So you think you should dictate what he posts? Or are you saying that others don't post topics not related to gay issues? Or are you saying that you want to suck dick?

I can't tell.


gaborn is the fucking Gathering Storm, bitches! Run and tell your little boyfriends!
 
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